plasma....it's just not that good. I'm not trolling! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I had to look up screen door effect....seems that is primarily a name for a problem with projectors. Had to search for a reference specifically for plasma panels. Thought at first it was a dyslexic version of "DSE". Still think some of you guys look like you're about this close with these glasses to see that sort of effect:


i need to be about 5feet or less away from my 120" screen displaying 720p resolution to see the screen door effect.

i think if you can see that on a 1080p plasma 65" or smaller at anything more than 3feet away with normal content you have super good vision.

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post #182 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not sde...and, I wouldn't say it's the dither that I'm seeing. What I see up close is way different than what I see at a distance. I'm quite certain it's just plasma tech...nothing more nothing less.

A couple of things to watch...what do skies look like? To me they look unnatural. And not compared to other modern sets, but compared to a crt.

The noise is not huge...I've said it many times...but there's noise in the picture. You all don't see it, so don't let me ruin that for you.

But, i would think that you see the gradation issue in faces...they just look unnatural. And when faces look unnatural, it's hard to watch movies...at least, it's hard for me to watch them.

Also, what happens when you are watching a sport with a static ticker below...how does the ticker look? Does it look rock solid or does it move just a bit from time to time?

And it's NOT THE PRIMARY COLORS....it's just not. If the brightness control were totally out of whack, then maybe. Why are you so freaking obtuse to keep suggesting something that is totally wrong? The primary colors are bang on accurate. It has nothing to do with that...it is a limitation of the technology.

Even when some of these review sites talk about the virtues of plasma they mention that some people don't see them as well as others. Maybe I'm some people....
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post #183 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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When I pause the screen on any kind of content, I can see a SLIGHT dithering noise but, again, it fades to the point of nonrecognition at about 4 feet or more. I have Lasik-corrected vision to 20/20, so YMMV if you're closer to 20/15. In terms of gradation deficiencies, I'm certainly not seeing them on my panel. Again, I have the Kuro, and not all Plasmas are created equal (not implying they aren't similarly afflicted). The ZT60 (and possibly the VT60) have increased gradation capabilities, so you might see an improvement on faces with these sets.
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post #184 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 02:29 PM
 
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In fact, the ZT60 has 30,720 gradation steps in comparison to the ST60, which has less (to what degree, I am unclear) and which may help with your complaints as well as those described by Flat Panels HD:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1366730214
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Color accuracy is very good after calibration but ST60 has some issues with color gradation, we found in our gradation test images. Not all colors are perfectly distinguished and in practice that translates to some minor color banding issues. Another problem with plasma TVs is that the dithering used to produce some colors becomes a bit too evident in some movie scenes. For example, the opening scene of National Treasure that has film noise (intentional, it was produced this way). The natural film noise combined with the undesirable dithering noise creates a bit too noisy video on ST60. The dithering noise is visible from a distance of 2 meters; mostly in dark or semi-dark movie scenes. It is one area where plasma panels still have room for improvement. It is not a major concern but if you have found it distracting in the past, ST60 will not change anything for you.

They also reviewed the VT60 (which has the same improvement in gradation) and reported improvement in dithering (with no complaints about gradation):

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1368523071
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Color reproduction is great but not perfect. As always, plasma has some issues with dithering noise in mostly dark colors and we found that to be the case on VT60, too. From a typical viewing distance of 2 meters (we tested the 50 inch) we were able to spot it but we know that there are many opinions on this and it is true that it is rarely seen during motion. Overall, color reproduction is great and we just complain because we are perfectionists. To clarify we should probably say that VT60 deserves praise and that it even managed to improve things over ST60 in this area.
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post #185 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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You should know...a few years ago, I had a Kuro..and returned it because the picture was too noisy. And in fact, I would say noisier than this panasonic by a fair margin.

This goes to show that what I see as noise, you just don't see....and i have less than 20/20 vision. In fact, maybe my poorer vision is putting noise on the screen!! smile.gif

Which one do you have?
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post #186 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 02:45 PM
 
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Well, I'm stumped, but I guess I'm just not sensitive to what you're witnessing (lucky me!). smile.gif I have the PDP-111FD.
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post #187 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

It's not sde...and, I wouldn't say it's the dither that I'm seeing. What I see up close is way different than what I see at a distance. I'm quite certain it's just plasma tech...nothing more nothing less.

A couple of things to watch...what do skies look like? To me they look unnatural. And not compared to other modern sets, but compared to a crt.

The noise is not huge...I've said it many times...but there's noise in the picture. You all don't see it, so don't let me ruin that for you.

But, i would think that you see the gradation issue in faces...they just look unnatural. And when faces look unnatural, it's hard to watch movies...at least, it's hard for me to watch them.

Also, what happens when you are watching a sport with a static ticker below...how does the ticker look? Does it look rock solid or does it move just a bit from time to time?

And it's NOT THE PRIMARY COLORS....it's just not. If the brightness control were totally out of whack, then maybe. Why are you so freaking obtuse to keep suggesting something that is totally wrong? The primary colors are bang on accurate. It has nothing to do with that...it is a limitation of the technology.

Even when some of these review sites talk about the virtues of plasma they mention that some people don't see them as well as others. Maybe I'm some people....

gradation gets much better with higher quality TV's. the rest might not change much, but there should be a big difference between the s60 and vt60 in terms of gradation

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post #188 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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as I sit and watch the tv right now, in the daytime...not much to complain about. Even the gradation APPEARS to look better. Later on...with the lights down, that's likely where the issues will crop up.

And there still is some subtle noise right now...but not as visible as at night with the lights down in the room.
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post #189 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I had to look up screen door effect....seems that is primarily a name for a problem with projectors. Had to search for a reference specifically for plasma panels. Thought at first it was a dyslexic version of "DSE". Still think some of you guys look like you're about this close with these glasses to see that sort of effect:

SDE is worse on some models than others, but it is a problem that can be very easily seen from normal viewing distance on some plasmas. I think my 2010 720p LG is fine in this regard, but I've seen other 720p plasmas that were clearly worse than mine, including last year's X5. If you go to a store and look at 720p models up close, you won't have trouble seeing it.

Guess I'm lucky, but do not believe even with my face extremely close to my PN59D8000 do I have SDE (i.e. perception of lines in between rows of pixels). Dithering I can see at that distance, though but since I don't watch at that distance it's a moot point.

Last place to judge a plasma is in a store unless you're allowed to control input and settings and even then the lighting in the store will probably suck.

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post #190 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

as I sit and watch the tv right now, in the daytime...not much to complain about. Even the gradation APPEARS to look better. Later on...with the lights down, that's likely where the issues will crop up.

And there still is some subtle noise right now...but not as visible as at night with the lights down in the room.

Do you have the ability to calibrate for night vs day? I've not found the need personally, and I'd have to go into my service menu to accomplish that.

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post #191 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

as I sit and watch the tv right now, in the daytime...not much to complain about. Even the gradation APPEARS to look better. Later on...with the lights down, that's likely where the issues will crop up.

And there still is some subtle noise right now...but not as visible as at night with the lights down in the room.

Why don't you take a photo of what you're seeing? And how about showing us some cal reports if your settings are BANG ON ACCURATE? And also, how about the settings of your TV?

BTW, have you bothered to check it isn't the source video? Lower quality video also has lower quality gradients. I've seen cable channels with terrible color banding because they're compressed so much, even though they're touted as HD. Sh!t video is sh!t video.
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post #192 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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look...it's a subtle effect. I'm sure taking a pic or video would be a waste of time. Please, move on away from this thread as your input is not helping and not required.

I already indicated that source could be relevant to some extent...I didn't get a chance to comb through any blu-rays in the last few days.

As for calibrating day/night...I would think night viewing would be better with lower light output. But, as we see with these plasma's, when you lower the light output the pic can be dull...likely relating to a gamma issue of some sort..or just not enough light. Although, I used to run crt's at fairly low contrast, and never found light output to be lacking...it's almost as if these sets are designed for high ft lamberts and not really anything else.

as it's getting a bit darker in here, the facial gradation is starting to be more apparent. That's interesting....In crt days, it was always a big step up to darken the room and turn on the backlight. With this plasma, darkening the room seems to make the gradation on faces more of a problem. That doesn't really make sense...I think lowering the light output is still the right direction to go, maybe I'll get there...
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post #193 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Guess I'm lucky, but do not believe even with my face extremely close to my PN59D8000 do I have SDE (i.e. perception of lines in between rows of pixels).

I never suggested it was an issue with 1080p plasmas.

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Last place to judge a plasma is in a store unless you're allowed to control input and settings and even then the lighting in the store will probably suck.

These pixel issues are not in any way affected by ambient light, calibration, or any of that junk. You're simply looking at the pixels and the space between pixels, which is more noticeable on some 720p plasmas than others. It can be done in a store just as easily as in someone's home or a cave. As I said before, you'll easily be able to see this on 720p plasmas up close. Then it is just a matter of how far you need to get from the TV before you can't really notice it. On some 720p plasmas, you can easily see this from normal viewing distance.
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post #194 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 04:31 PM
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look...it's a subtle effect. I'm sure taking a pic or video would be a waste of time. Please, move on away from this thread as your input is not helping and not required.

I already indicated that source could be relevant to some extent...I didn't get a chance to comb through any blu-rays in the last few days.

As for calibrating day/night...I would think night viewing would be better with lower light output. But, as we see with these plasma's, when you lower the light output the pic can be dull...likely relating to a gamma issue of some sort..or just not enough light. Although, I used to run crt's at fairly low contrast, and never found light output to be lacking...it's almost as if these sets are designed for high ft lamberts and not really anything else.

as it's getting a bit darker in here, the facial gradation is starting to be more apparent. That's interesting....In crt days, it was always a big step up to darken the room and turn on the backlight. With this plasma, darkening the room seems to make the gradation on faces more of a problem. That doesn't really make sense...I think lowering the light output is still the right direction to go, maybe I'll get there...

Allow me to translate:

"Wait, you want me to actually do something? That takes effort. Instead, I'll just complain and shrug off any help."

So, instead of showing us your subtle effect, you're going to shrug it off because it takes effort to take a photo? Like, 2 mins of time is too much effort but hanging around and being a complainy pants isn't? Well, I guess one requires you to actually get up, on the other hand, complaining on the forum and refusing help from people doesn't require you to move from your PC chair or couch.

You're also completely wrong about plasma. Built for high fL? If anything, that's not the case at all. eek.gif

Anytime you change the light output of the TV you're going to alter the gamma. So, when you put the panel in mid or high or low it changes your gamma. Anytime you change the contrast you're changing your gamma. Obviously, a dull picture is from poor settings (do you like merry-go-rounds?) however night viewing should be the easiest time to be able to view an image with less light output, and if it looks dull at night, guess what? Man, do I even need to tell you what's going to come next? Calibrate yo shizz.

In CRT days, what? What backlights? What are you talking about? You mean raising the contrast or something at night to make a brighter image? mad.gif Just wtf man. This is hilarious coming from you, who sits there and tells everyone else they're wrong and that this forum isn't sciency anymore but you refuse to learn and even use improper terminology (not very science like am I right?) while barraging on about how you've been here 20 years and you know your stuff. Aye...

Seriously, post some pics, post your settings, check your video source, and if you aren't willing to do any of that then do everyone a favor and go buy a LED and be done with it. Or get a second hand Sony XBR960.
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post #195 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

I never suggested it was an issue with 1080p plasmas.
These pixel issues are not in any way affected by ambient light, calibration, or any of that junk. You're simply looking at the pixels and the space between pixels, which is more noticeable on some 720p plasmas than others. It can be done in a store just as easily as in someone's home or a cave. As I said before, you'll easily be able to see this on 720p plasmas up close. Then it is just a matter of how far you need to get from the TV before you can't really notice it. On some 720p plasmas, you can easily see this from normal viewing distance.

For sure! Anytime you have any type of low resolution large display you'll see SDE! Remember those old projection big screen TV's from the late 80's and early 90's? Those were terrible and fraught with SDE. Though I've never heard of anyone complaining that a 1080p plasma had SDE, that's a new one to me. Even early 2000's 30+ inch 4:3 SD CRT's had SDE, very noticeable on those too. Even the XBR970 you could see a SDE because the aperture grill wasn't fine enough for the screen size. It should be obvious that those 720p sets at larger sizes (I can't fathom why 750p 50" displays are even manufactured) are going to look pretty bad up close.

Ah well, days past as the lower res stuff goes out.
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post #196 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 04:38 PM
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At this point I must admit I've been trolled. OP has not once mentioned he has actually calibrated his set. No mention of any patterns/disc used, any software used or any meter used. I provided my settings as a baseline for his 42S60, I've suggested things to do. I linked to my list of blu-rays which I have access to test for this supposed posterization issue and banding in faces and extreme dithering which he is seeing, but the posts move on to reply to others without offering any actual follow-up. I was fooled as well by the subject, but when you have "im not trolling" in there, I guess it should have been a dead giveaway. My last post on this thread. wink.gif

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

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Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

At this point I must admit I've been trolled. OP has not once mentioned he has actually calibrated his set. No mention of any patterns/disc used, any software used or any meter used. I provided my settings as a baseline for his 42S60, I've suggested things to do. I linked to my list of blu-rays which I have access to test for this supposed posterization issue and banding in faces and extreme dithering which he is seeing, but the posts move on to reply to others without offering any actual follow-up. I was fooled as well by the subject, but when you have "im not trolling" in there, I guess it should have been a dead giveaway. My last post on this thread. wink.gif
That is worth noting (though someone mentioned he had posted in the calibration forum).
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post #198 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Guess I'm lucky, but do not believe even with my face extremely close to my PN59D8000 do I have SDE (i.e. perception of lines in between rows of pixels).

I never suggested it was an issue with 1080p plasmas.

Quote:
Last place to judge a plasma is in a store unless you're allowed to control input and settings and even then the lighting in the store will probably suck.

These pixel issues are not in any way affected by ambient light, calibration, or any of that junk. You're simply looking at the pixels and the space between pixels, which is more noticeable on some 720p plasmas than others. It can be done in a store just as easily as in someone's home or a cave. As I said before, you'll easily be able to see this on 720p plasmas up close. Then it is just a matter of how far you need to get from the TV before you can't really notice it. On some 720p plasmas, you can easily see this from normal viewing distance.

I wasn't implying you suggested it with 1080p. Someone else did that IIRC.

I never saw a 720p plasma nor would I be interested in one....why settle for less? Small screens don't interest me whatsoever. Nice thing about LCD and plasma....you can get a large screen without needing a forklift to move it or fear it will tumble in an earthquake and explode wink.gif In any case would assume of course if you get close enough you could distinguish pixels...even with CRTs or theater screens you'll find crap up close.

Thanks for the clarification, though.

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post #199 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't had time to run Blu-rays this week..

I have an eye one pro and use hcfr with HD video essentials and the avs dowload...and I just have a feeling that this will be greeted with thoughts of how this gear is not good enough and likely the cause of any picture anomolies.

I'm not thinking this is calibration related...it's just the way plasma's look.
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post #200 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

At this point I must admit I've been trolled. OP has not once mentioned he has actually calibrated his set. No mention of any patterns/disc used, any software used or any meter used. I provided my settings as a baseline for his 42S60, I've suggested things to do. I linked to my list of blu-rays which I have access to test for this supposed posterization issue and banding in faces and extreme dithering which he is seeing, but the posts move on to reply to others without offering any actual follow-up. I was fooled as well by the subject, but when you have "im not trolling" in there, I guess it should have been a dead giveaway. My last post on this thread. wink.gif

LOL man. He's actually said he's already done a cal "by setting brightness and contrast" via a disc pattern. So I'm guessing he isn't using his meter, lol, although he claims he's a 100% pro calibrator and has more AV science knowledge than us little peons. Sometimes, this thread is just too delicious to stay out of, so I take it with a grain of salt and sometimes come back for fun because at this point, I know it's a troll thread and I'm just having fun.
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it is so amusing to be part of a forum community...

let me catch you all up.

What I believe the crux of the issue to be is too much light ouput. THe more light, the more noise....lowering the light output dulls the picture...

BUT....last night, I was tweaking like a mad man and I came up with something that may warrant some consideration.

I put it in cinema, and lowered contrast below 50...now I see a smoother pic with less noise...but it's dull. I know that I want gamma of 2.6, but perhaps lowering contrast really throws off the gamma curve (I'll ask in the calibration forum).

At any rate, I lowered the gamma to 2.0 and then set brightness accordingly. The resulting picture was far smoother and had good depth. It was a good improvement to the point where I will likely keep this tv. No real dull areas either...so, I'm wondering if lowering the gamma when lowering the light output might have interactive results. Perhaps the gamma curve is ruined when I lower the contrast so much....and lowering the gamma value may actually be putting gamma into a better value for that amount of light output.

One may think that dark room viewing certainly doesn't require contrast settings in the 80's or 90's...it's too darn bright. At least, that's what I'm thinking.

And I do use a light behind the tv. a 6500k light, of course.

And of course raising or lowering brightness like a fool could harm the pic quality and make dithering more noticeable. But, calibration to me is about greyscale and primary colors. Any monkey can set proper brightness with a test pattern, And experienced calibrators can likely set it very close by eye. To suggest this problem was my brightness control is insulting...at best.

I have a color analyzer...I will try to plot my gamma curve with these new settings and see what I come up with. At any rate...I'm much happier with the ballpark of these new settings.
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I have been a contributing member of this forum for 10 years. And I have written posts showing others how to use a color analyzer and many other aspects of calibration. I am not a rube...I had Joe Kane's video standard laserdisc 20 years ago, for crying out loud

Just from that above he has no concept of calibration a set. No concept of how to set gamma, no concept of how his controls work. He says any monkey can properly set brightness with a test pattern, but even a monkey would have enough sense to at least read a beginner's guide to cal (Curt Palme's is pretty awesome) and figure out how these controls work hand in hand. Derp, I've been teaching people how to cal for years on the forum! Wait, does changing contrast affect gamma??? I am professional science!

Apparently he has many years of experience calibrating and yet has no idea how his settings work hand in hand...
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You can't just lower brightness...it will ruin information just above black. Anyone who has even used VE to set brightness would know that. You can't just fix the picture by lowering brightness...it's a fools game.

Again, no concept of how to cal or how a cal works. He wants a 2.6 gamma but is worried about not seeing the bar in the eye adjustment pattern in VE?? Aye.... Also, no one was suggesting he lower brightness to fix the picture, but above he's talking about how lowering contrast is "fixing the picture" lol.

Oh man, ok, I gotta stop now. This thread, I should stay away, but sometimes
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post #201 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

In any case would assume of course if you get close enough you could distinguish pixels...even with CRTs or theater screens you'll find crap up close.

FWIW, even with the F8500 and it's new sub-pixel structure, with my eyeballs up against the screen I can still see the spaces between the sub-pixels. But like, that's ridiculously close, lol. Even on my superfine pitch CRT, if you get close enough, you can start to see where the aperture grill separates out the pixels and you can even see the sub-pixels. Surprisingly easier to see on the CRT even though it's a smaller screen. Most likely because as fine as the aperture grill is on the SFP tube in the CRT, it still isn't as fine of detail as the F8500. Good stuff, though, I love both sets.
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post #202 of 202 Old 05-28-2013, 05:32 PM
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Several posts removed. Enough with the insults guys...

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