plasma....it's just not that good. I'm not trolling! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I've now owned several plasmas...pioneer kuro to a current 42S60. While many of the measurable specs are amazing with plasma...the ACTUAL picture is never good. It is so full of noise as to be totally distracting. The lack of discernible color gradation makes faces look ridiculous. I had last years 50ut50 and took it back...I thought this years 42" would be great because the smaller screen size would make the noise less discernible. I was wrong...the 42 looks just as soft as the 50, with so much picture noise that I can't even fathom why this is considered the reference technology.

How the heck does one get a clean picture with some appropriate gradation??

I want like heck to love plasma...I've tried...over and over again. I can't imagine why you folks think you are seeing a good picture when it looks so noisy and so soft.

I bought a high end sony lcd which does have a better picture quality...but, it falls apart in low light scenarios.

It's almost as if nobody makes a good tv!!!

Do none of you notice the constant barage of mosquito noise in the pic? I don't even have 20/20 vision, and yet the noise is so apparent that it's crazy.

Again...not trolling. I am an unbiased videophile...I just want a good picture, and neither plasma nor lcd seems to bring it! I want to like plasma...as it's the closest to crt. But, I just can't get past the freaking noise! WHy would 1080p video not display a noise free picture?
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post #2 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:20 PM
 
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Sharpness is set too high or you're sitting too close to the screen or you just have a peculiar sensitivity to dithering/posterization (you wouldn't be the first). It's not that striking to me. Call me blind (20/20 corrected laser vision).
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post #3 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:21 PM
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You know, I just got a Panny plasma, and it's about as noisy as an Ansel Adams photograph - zero.

Perhaps the common thread is some issue with your source material....
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post #4 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:24 PM
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So you bought the near bottom rung of Panasonics plasma line and were expecitng an excellent picture? Maybe step up to at least the ST or VT and then maybe youll see a difference. Unfortunately in your size range (~42") your choices are limited to the "lower end" sets which will suffer from worse picture than its more expensive label mates.....

How far are you sitting? What sources are you watching? have you trued swapping out cables and other equipment to see if those could be the source? have you tried adjusting the picture via one of the many "adjustment" discs available?

also some blu-ray movies have grain, thats normal and part of the source... Some people confuse that grain or a bad transfer to something being wrrong with the picture of thier TV...
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post #5 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Sharpness is set too high or you're sitting too close to the screen or you just have a peculiar sensitivity to dithering/posterization (you wouldn't be the first). It's not that striking to me. Call me blind (20/20 corrected laser vision).

Just remember you did ask for it biggrin.gif

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post #6 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:28 PM
 
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My my, how thick your glasses are, sonny.
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post #7 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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drboyd, can I come by your house to see the first noise free plasma?? Please?

I bought the S because it basically looks the same as the ST, except for the filter. They're both incredibly noisy.

And noise would not be caused by cabling...this is the digital world.

I have setup many, many tv's...I owned and used a color analyzer before most people even knew what they were.

I also mentioned that I had a Sony lcd which had a good, clean picture. It just fell apart in a low light room...and I happen to love watching movies in a low light room.

I've tried any and all settings...lowering contrast can mask the noise to an extent. But, the low light output makes the picture lacking...

I just can't believe most of you not seeing an objectionable amount of noise from your panny plasmas. Even my vaunted kuro had a lot of noise...not a little, a lot.

Source material can be 1080p Blu-ray...there is still a ton of noise. Not film grain...dancing noise. WHich is on your tv too, you have just learned not to see it...or you are just able to watch tv and not see it...which is lucky for you!
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post #8 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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and sharpness is at 0.
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post #9 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:38 PM
 
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Yes, they all have it, including my Kuro. Again, it's not that striking (nor remotely disruptive) from my sitting distance. Sorry.
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post #10 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

My my, how thick your glasses are, sonny.

Well that picture would be you wink.gif not I my friend smile.gif
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Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

drboyd, can I come by your house to see the first noise free plasma?? Please?

I bought the S because it basically looks the same as the ST, except for the filter. They're both incredibly noisy.

And noise would not be caused by cabling...this is the digital world.

I have setup many, many tv's...I owned and used a color analyzer before most people even knew what they were.

I also mentioned that I had a Sony lcd which had a good, clean picture. It just fell apart in a low light room...and I happen to love watching movies in a low light room.

I've tried any and all settings...lowering contrast can mask the noise to an extent. But, the low light output makes the picture lacking...

I just can't believe most of you not seeing an objectionable amount of noise from your panny plasmas. Even my vaunted kuro had a lot of noise...not a little, a lot.

Source material can be 1080p Blu-ray...there is still a ton of noise. Not film grain...dancing noise. WHich is on your tv too, you have just learned not to see it...or you are just able to watch tv and not see it...which is lucky for you!

Wait so now people are not seeing things that are there and a problem for you, but not for them and its thier fault? JMOHO but I hope those people never "learn" to see it then...

So now becasue its all digital there can be no faults with equipment, cables or settings? Please let me know what cables are 100% perfect all of the time as I am sure they would sell like hotcakes....

If you have objections with the Panasonic then buy a samsung F8500?

you still didnt answer how far you are from your TV wink.gif
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post #11 of 202 Old 05-13-2013, 11:56 PM
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I have an issue with LCD/LED displays but in regards to frame rates and movement appearing artificial. I'm basically the only one that notices and it can be annoying; that is why I have a plasma. You might be an ideal candidate or an OLED display?
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post #12 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 12:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Well that picture would be you wink.gif not I my friend smile.gif)
Can't be, you posted it, that makes it you. My thick-spectacled glasses were left to disintegrate in the 90s. :0
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post #13 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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at least 10 feet away...

and if you think digital cabling is responsible for this noise, then what can I say? Other than, you are wrong. The same cabling produced a nice, clean picture on the SOny...plus, hdmi cables don't deliver subtle picture quality differences...let alone, major discrepancies like the noise on this screen. It just doesn't happen...and if you think it does, you probably spent big money on cables.

And no...nothing is their fault. I just can't believe people don't see it....it's not good at all.

I'm just frustrated as there really isn't any great tv out there...
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post #14 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Can't be, you posted it, that makes it you. My thick-spectacled glasses were left to disintegrate in the 90s. :0

You said u were blind wink.gif I've never made such a statement tongue.gif
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Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

at least 10 feet away...

and if you think digital cabling is responsible for this noise, then what can I say? Other than, you are wrong. The same cabling produced a nice, clean picture on the SOny...plus, hdmi cables don't deliver subtle picture quality differences...let alone, major discrepancies like the noise on this screen. It just doesn't happen...and if you think it does, you probably spent big money on cables.

And no...nothing is their fault. I just can't believe people don't see it....it's not good at all.

I'm just frustrated as there really isn't any great tv out there...

Your frustrated and taking it out on forum members trying to help you get to the bottom of what is happening.
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post #15 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 01:29 AM
 
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Past tense, man, past tense (but...now I'm better understanding the photo, as it is supposed to reflect my spectacled self in the past)! redface.gif Though, like death and taxes, I am sure deteriorating vision is in my future (as it is for everybody, thanks to aging frown.gif ) Too long of a day...off to bed and up at 'em bright and early.
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post #16 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Past tense, man, past tense (but...now I'm better understanding the photo, as it is supposed to reflect my spectacled self in the past)! redface.gif Though, like death and taxes, I am sure deteriorating vision is in my future (as it is for everybody, thanks to aging frown.gif ) Too long of a day...off to bed and up at 'em bright and early.

Well that and the episode it came from Jerry was wearing prescription glasses when he didn't need them wink.gif
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post #17 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 02:07 AM
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Sit further back and find a good calibrator might help you too overlook the noise.Mine has it (Sam 51e450),but my eyes are not the best so I don't even see it unless I'm 5 ft away...it's a bit like image retention after a while you don't notice it.If you look for it you will notice it just like a lot of other problems the tv may have.
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post #18 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 03:31 AM
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I sit ~10' from a 65" S60 (S64) and see no noise at all. Sources are PS3 and Apple TV.
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post #19 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 04:13 AM
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OP, perhaps the 34XBR960 is the television for you. smile.gif
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post #20 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 04:20 AM
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I can see how dithering can bother you. It's more noticeable in movies more than anything but I haven't calibrated the settings for movie watching because I mainly do gaming and plasma is the best tv for gaming. Maybe if I mess with the settings when I watch a movie there won't be any type of dithering.

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post #21 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 08:15 AM
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I see a lot of noise on my 60ST60, I see 12+ feet away too.. on some material its like snow.. I however have also seen this on lots of other things, it is not in the least bit distracting and more than that, the picture is sharp and very nice even with this.

I see a lot of noise on old black and white movies from the 30-60s and even more on the bluray version of band of brothers, I attribute it mostly to source processing and grain with some of it being the TV itself.

Its not that I dont see it, its that I have seen it and find the clarity and PQ to outweigh the negative. It does look like film grain to me and in some cases that adds to the experience. If I watch avatar I see almost NO noise (unless I stand right in front of the TV.

To make matters worse, I have all devices going through my Sony AVR and am using cheap 99c Amazon special HDMI cables, I have all the wires just bunched up behind the AVR or TV as well. I use to have the good cables, and properly routed. I never found a noticeable difference that would warrant the amount of time it took to do it "Right" I have pixel direct on, sharp set to 0 motion smoother and noise reduction off..

So, I have to agree with the others. it is there but is not objectionable to most of us, you are just more sensitive to it I think.
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post #22 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
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I'm just frustrated as there really isn't any great tv out there...

You are virtually alone with this sentiment.
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post #23 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

I've now owned several plasmas...pioneer kuro to a current 42S60. While many of the measurable specs are amazing with plasma...the ACTUAL picture is never good. It is so full of noise as to be totally distracting. The lack of discernible color gradation makes faces look ridiculous. I had last years 50ut50 and took it back...I thought this years 42" would be great because the smaller screen size would make the noise less discernible. I was wrong...the 42 looks just as soft as the 50, with so much picture noise that I can't even fathom why this is considered the reference technology.

How the heck does one get a clean picture with some appropriate gradation??

I want like heck to love plasma...I've tried...over and over again. I can't imagine why you folks think you are seeing a good picture when it looks so noisy and so soft.

I bought a high end sony lcd which does have a better picture quality...but, it falls apart in low light scenarios.

It's almost as if nobody makes a good tv!!!

Do none of you notice the constant barage of mosquito noise in the pic? I don't even have 20/20 vision, and yet the noise is so apparent that it's crazy.

Again...not trolling. I am an unbiased videophile...I just want a good picture, and neither plasma nor lcd seems to bring it! I want to like plasma...as it's the closest to crt. But, I just can't get past the freaking noise! WHy would 1080p video not display a noise free picture?

Please note that I mean no "tone" here, or sarcasm. But I do have to ask why you don't consider an older CRT TV. If the noise bothers you to this degree, perhaps you are willing to settle for 1080i (vs 1080p) for movie watching, and perhaps some screen size. It has been noted before that a CRT device is actually a better picture.

As an aside, I do have to admit I felt my "old Sony CRT" had a bit better picture than the Hitachi plasma that replaced it. But, screen size and aesthetics won out with the family. But, I am VERY pleased with the picture quality of my plasma. I did have to pull down the sharpness setting dramatically, but after that I thought the picture quality was very good.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
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post #24 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 09:56 AM
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Even despite any complaints people have about plasma, what I'm finding is that the number one flaw of LCD will point me in the direction of plasma every time: blur. I can't unsee it now. If I'm watching the news, even the text scroll at the bottom seems to smear together. On a plasma, it scrolls right along with no blur at all. Games stay incredibly crisp in motion, and I don't have to wait for the action to stop to come into focus. Once my eye focuses on that benefit, it's hard to focus on any of the complaints that the OP has.
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post #25 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 10:03 AM
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I have a 50ut50 and I find the picture to be pretty impressive. The quality is awesome considering it didn't cost me a fortune. It's the best TV I've ever owned, so I really can't imagine how impressed I'll be when I step up to a higher model TV soon.

With that said, I don't see any dithering effects unless I'm a few feet away. I sit about 8+ feet away and I have no issues watching anything on this TV. It's great. Perhaps you are just more sensitive to it than the average person.

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post #26 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 10:28 AM
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Just remember you did ask for it biggrin.gif


LOL..........

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post #27 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 11:54 AM
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LOL..........

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GREAT episode.

biggrin.gif glad someone could appreciate it
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post #28 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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yes a 34xbr960 is still the reference in my books...and I will get another one if I can. 1080i on a crt is far sharper than 1080p on a plasma.

The kicker is that lcd is cleaner...and sharper than plasma. And lcd has even fixed the motion blur issues to a great extent. They are there on some panels, but not others. But lcd just can't cut the mustard in low light...at least, not yet it can't.

I am struggling with esthetics too...a hulking crt does look ridiculous these days. But, for absolute pic quality, it has still not been bested to this day.

If you have a panny plasma and feel like the pic is sharp and noise free...then that's good for you. The fact that they are neither is not good for me smile.gif

What good is a big screen if you have to sit 15 feet away from it?
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post #29 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 12:08 PM
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LCDs have fixed motion blur issues to a great extent? Maybe for casual viewing, but at least for me, it's hard to even play any game on a huge LCD. The image doesn't even seem to come into focus until the action stops. I remember playing Assassin's Creed 2 on a big LCD. There's a game that has lots of vertical objects like windows and architecture. Scrolling left and right would just look like a small gaussian blur on the screen, and then things would sharpen up when the camera stopped. It was infuriating. Lots of these TVs aren't even true 120hz, which still isn't nearly as clear as a plasma in terms of motion. Playing that game on a plasma vs. LCD is like night and day. Then again, I'm sure this isn't as huge a deal for non-gamers. Still, I'm sure it can't help with things like 2D animation either.
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post #30 of 202 Old 05-14-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you try it on a Sony HX850? If not...then who cares? You're talking about generalities, and I'm talking about specifics. I had that Sony tv and its motion resolution was superb.
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Closed Thread Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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