Has the greatest Kuro REALLY been dethroned? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
The Sharp Elite lovers might say yes.

The f8500 and ZT60 and maybe even VT60 lovers might say yes.

There are some calibrators that calibrate for a living who don't think so.

Was this the year of the greatest plasma ever or is it NOT QUITE?

Let the war with all the true Kuro worshipers and lovers begin!
Artwood is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 03:24 PM
Member
 
bostonfan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If its even a question then the answer is no. I think it will be as obvious as when the Kuro beat the pants off all other plasmas.
bostonfan2 is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 03:28 PM
Senior Member
 
GqMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 19
This is like saying San Francisco Giants dethroned the Boston Red Sox, when they didn't play each other. Though they each won the World Series.


These Kuro posts are insane, IMO

All anyone can do is buy the best set available at the time of purchase.

Or if you're a good enough type of buyer, buy whatever that is at the time.
GqMagic is online now  
post #4 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 03:35 PM
Senior Member
 
Omni009's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Not dethroned, but I'd say the time has come you can say the VT60 is a decent alternative that will leave even many videophilles not wanting for more. Those who have to chase those last few ml will still need to get a Kuro...and a visit from D-Nice.

Omni009 is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
I wish D-Nice would answer this thread.

When he says the greatest Kuro has been dethroned that's when I'll believe it and when it will be time to buy a TV!

D-Nice: do you ever answer such simple questions?
Artwood is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 03:53 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
C'mon, Art. You have to define WHICH Kuro (and if you mean factory), and then you have to further frame the question around the engineer tricks (i.e. with or without) that enable nearly absolute black. smile.gif
vinnie97 is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
I just wonder whether if on the witness stand in court if you had him answer the question concerning the last two Kuro models ever made--if he would admit it if they had been bested?

I think the moment he says that all of them have been bested--that will be a benchmark day in history here at AVS.

I don't have a dog in the fight. I do know that he knows Pioneer Kuros probably better than anyone and has probably done some mighty fine calibrations.

i guess what I'm saying is that I could trust whatever he would say about Pioneer Kuro performance because he knows what he is talking about.

I suspect we might here such things before the year is out.

I'm not saying he is part of the sales force here at AVS--I just don't think he would take a public stand and dump on the current participants in the shootout.

I may be wrong about that--I don't like talking about someone who is definitely part of the AVS community--it's just he takes his shots carefully around here so that many of the inbetween times people do wind up talking about his views.

I would hope that he would take that as a compliment.

I pose my question not to argue with what he would say--I just want to learn.
Artwood is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 11:41 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Sorry, I just realized you put "greatest" in the title. Given what was revealed at the shootout, you can't truthfully say it was completely dethroned, no.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 05-14-2013, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
Absolutely PATHETIC!

I think Hollywood must be making sure that picture quality doesn't get too good.

It's not like it is IMPOSSIBLE to exceed Pioneer Kuro performance and don't tell me it would cost too much--people at AVS spend ZILLIONS on all sort of displays.

Am I the only person who finds it ODD that 5.5 year old technology has not been bested?

I'm sure the sales force will make sure that this thread dies pretty soon!
Artwood is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 05-15-2013, 12:30 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
heh, my expectations were tempered from the beginning, and I was only holding out hope for a panel that could match the blacks of my 2nd greatest Kuro product. smile.gif I think we are there, if only just. I am trying not to be too disgusted about the continued reigning supremacy of the hallowed 500M/101FD models, but Panasonic just hasn't cared enough (or committed enough resources) to eclipse the best of the best in MLL. Maybe the increasing power usage regulations in EU have unduly sapped their R&D resources? All that being said, one can argue that the new panels do beat the reigning champs in other areas, however (shadow detail, less dithering), but they haven't delivered a knockout blow, no.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 05-15-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
vinnie97: if every Kuro vanished--what would you buy?
Artwood is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 05-15-2013, 02:47 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
In that hypothetical realm, I'd still be leaning towards the ZT60...but might make an exception for the VT60 since it's brighter. Buying a used Kuro five years out is a bit of a gamble itself.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 05-15-2013, 09:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Bubbleboyjones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Am I the only person who finds it ODD that 5.5 year old technology has not been bested?



Is it really the same tech? I know at a high level they are both plasma but at a low level(what matters) they are very much different internally. If they are using a different designs and the costs are extremely different then how the heck are they remotely the same? Because they both share the name "plasma"? Is a Ferrari and a Corvette the same if they share the name "sports car". What if they both use V-8's with rear wheel drive?....

It would be ODD if Pioneer was still in the TV business and couldn't improve for 5.5 years using the same tech.It would be ODD if Panasonic took the Kuro designs, made plasma's to their exact specs and couldn't improve for 5.5 years. I don't know how odd it is for Panasonic to not best certain Kuro's considering they are using a different design/cost. Considering whatever Pioneer was doing ultimately lead they out of the Plasma business years ago leads me to believe Panasonic or Samsung would be fools copying the Kuro designs.
Bubbleboyjones is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 05-15-2013, 09:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
RodK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post


It's not like it is IMPOSSIBLE to exceed Pioneer Kuro performance and don't tell me it would cost too much--people at AVS spend ZILLIONS on all sort of displays.

Am I the only person who finds it ODD that 5.5 year old technology has not been bested?

I'm sure the sales force will make sure that this thread dies pretty soon!

I don't think it's a matter of not having the technology to do it. It just can't be done for what the "majority" of people are willing to pay for a tv. If it was profitable to be built, people would still be buying Pioneer plasmas today.

RodK is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
Why is it that Bang and Olufsen displays can be sold for zillions--Runco plasmas can be sold for zillions--the Sharp Elite isn't exactly cheap--but it is totally impossible for Panasonic to build a Pioneer Kuro cheaper now then when Pioneer left the business?

Extrapolate Kuro's cost out until today and then tell me how it would cost an exorbitant amount compared to 85-inch plasmas whicht yes indeed ARE SOLD by Panasonic.

The last time I checked Panasonic selling those astronomically priced displays does not put them out of business.

Selling a Corvette for more than a Malibu doesn't put Chevrolet out of business.

Why would selling a better than 65-inch plasma Kuroesque display put Panasonic out of business when selling 85-inch and 100-inch plasma displays isn't currently putting them out of business?

They said that Panasonic hired a lot of the Pioneer engineers.

Are you telling me that those engineers are so dumb that in the last 5.5 years that they have never though of HOW to reproduce Kuro technology more efficiently?

Are you telling me that all the engineers from Panasonic and Pioneer can't tackle a problem like that?

And why is it impossible for Panasonic to produce a niche product?

Videophiles spend thousands on video processors--backlighting--sound systems--even seating--but you're telling me that they wouldn't spend money on a Kuro beating display?

That simply is hogwash!

The REAL TRUTH is if home video gets to looking too good that people will attend the Movie Theaters LESS.

And yes the Movie Industry can pull the strings of the Video display industry.

Beating Kuro isn't a matter of know how--OR the LAME reason given around here about how it would be too expensive to market--it's a function of what Hollywood wants to be sold in the home so as not to upset their current money making model.

Better than Kuoresque 65-inch plasmas upset that model because the quality is TOO much BETTER than what a real movie can provide.

Real movie theaters don't have to worry about large LCD that sucks and the best way that the video display companies can make Hollywood happy and make a lot of money themselves is to sell large LCD that sucks--even in 4K form where in 65 and under sizes it will be too small to realize the 4K benefit and in LCD form--instead of OLED that is too expensive--the quality will suck enough and at least be substandard to displays even at the recent shootout--to where people will want to go to the movie theaters.

Hollywood's real plan is to upgrade movie theaters over the next twenty years and make sure that video quality in the home is kept SMALL enough--or if in big sizes QUALITY CHALLENGED enough to where they will make the most money.

5 years from now 4K LCD will still not picture quality wise exceed the current shootout displays--just like they don't exceed pioneer Kuros from 5.5 yeares ago.

Follow the money! Picture quality will go like 1970 Mustang performance versus 1974 Mustang II performance.

They sold a lot of Mustang IIs and yes they DId Suck!

4K LCD will be the same!
vinnie97 and craigyboy like this.
Artwood is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 09:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Bubbleboyjones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
^^Can you please enlighten us as to why Pioneer left the TV market?
Bubbleboyjones is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
Because they wanted to!

They didn't have the WILL to make money producing TVs.

There's always a price at which you can make money on ANYTHING.

Saying that since Pioneer was not making enough money on their plasmas therefore no one could make money making plasmas just like theirs would be as silly as saying since General Motors was not making enough money on their cars that therefore no one could make cars that were just like theirs.

They eliminated Oldsmobile and Pontiac. They COULD have eliminated Chevrolet and Buick. Their elimiantion or non elimination doesn't mean that either way was IMPOSSIBLE.

If Pioneer WANTED to make money selling Pioneer Kuro plasma they could have--hold the line on price and make fewer. Are you going to tell me that NO ONE on planet Earth would have bought them? How silly is that?

Are you going to tell me that they couldn't produce ONLY their best model and make money?

Just because they didn't CHOOSE to do that doesn't mean that doing it was impossible.

I've noticed that you always hit a nerve around here when you say that the video display industry and the Hollywood movie industry are linked.
Artwood is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 10:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Leon!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post


I've noticed that you always hit a nerve around here when you say that the video display industry and the Hollywood movie industry are linked.

Not really. THat is the third time you've mentioned it here, & no one's taken the bait yet.
Leon! is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
Silence is worth a thousand words.

Many times around here what is not responded to says more than what is responded to.
Artwood is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 11:21 AM
Senior Member
 
Bubbleboyjones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Well I must say I've learned a lot here...maybe too much biggrin.gif
Bubbleboyjones is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 11:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
David_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: delete me
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
I thought it was beat 2 years ago.

Can't stand the sde on kuros.

If they all were as good as the few that are top flight, I would say they where amazing. But they aren't.

buytme
David_B is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 11:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gmarceau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Not beat at the shootout, but basically getting to the point where a VT60 is nearly identical on 95% of content compared to a tweaked 500m.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
gmarceau is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 12:03 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,033
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 507
The last time I looked, you can't buy a Kuro other than used. They haven't been produced for years. Who cares how anything matches up to the Kuro anymore? Why do we need yet another thread on this? No offense Art.

I just don't get this endless debate for a display that hasn't been manufactured for years and can no longer be purchased. We've gone over this 10,000 times and some say yes and some say no. It will never change and it will never end and it makes no difference IMO. Kuro owners can either upgrade if they so choose (if that's what they think), downgrade to a larger screen size (if that's what they think) or stand pat. It's their choice and it's that group that this thread has any relevance. But this group also has a pair of eyes that they can either trust or not trust (I've been told by a couple of posters you can't trust your eyes...but I won't go there) and use those eyes to determine for themselves if the transition is worthwhile.

And Art, trust me, D-Nice has already said he doesn't believe it's been dethroned. No mystery, no surprise. smile.gif
Ken Ross is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 195
Ken Ross: In your opinion which displays have dethroned the best Kuro ever? Sharp Elite? f8500? Anymore?

I guess the reason people always bring up has anyone bested the best Kuro is that they want to know what is the state of the art.

It would be like in the 80s asking what cars had better performance than a 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle with a LS-6 454 which was the pinnacle of muscle car performance.

That car was eventually exceeded in performance but it took many years. You don't hear many people in their twenties speaking of the Chevelle because it was before their time.

For many consumers the Kuros from 5.5 years ago are before their time as many weren't even interested in video then.

For those who were interested in video and can remember the comparisons will be made.

Eventually OLED or Super Super duper 4K LCD might put the best Kuros in the toilet.

When that happens people will quit talking about them like they quit talking about 1970 Chevelles.

The reason I think it is good to make such comparisons is there is the distinct possibility that in a few years--maybe even as early as 2015 there will be no Sharp Elites and no plasmas. Even if you don't think the Kuros were the greatest--maybe you like the sets at the current shootout better--you will still need a benchmark reference as to the state of the art when you consider what is available at the time.

Now to be sure--the manufacturers are most concerned about selling to the mass of consumers which aren't picky like AVSers.

I would say they care about about videophiles to the same degree that automobile manufacturers cared about car lovers who frequented automobile enthusiast sites--if the general public is 95% of their worries I would say the enthusiast are 5% of their worries because they DO influence in a very small way the general population and that small amount is money.

I would hope that AVS would never become the place where the state of the art is never considered with no recollection of the recent past.

My attitude about that may not make the sales force around here happy but I'm as happy as anyone for the new customer who buys a TV--any TV--and is happy with looking at the picuture even if I wouldn't think it was the greatest because without that there would be no pictures.

Does anyone know how to mount a Kuro inside of a 1970 LS6 Chevrolet Chevelle?
Artwood is offline  
post #25 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 12:39 PM
Member
 
TV-Junky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bremen, Germany
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Which name we choose now for ZT60?

Neo-KURO? Why not it has been made by same engineers.

PS Cnet Review about VT60:
Quote:
The good: The Panasonic VT60 produces the best picture quality of any TV we've ever reviewed, equal to or better than our in-house Pioneer Kuro reference; exceedingly deep black levels and excellent shadow detail; well-saturated colors and excellent skin tones; industry-leading sound quality; extensive features including touch-pad remote, voice control, and onboard camera.

ZT60 is basically the same, except of the front glass.

Joshy
TV-Junky is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
GqMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Ken Ross: In your opinion which displays have dethroned the best Kuro ever? Sharp Elite? f8500? Anymore?

I guess the reason people always bring up has anyone bested the best Kuro is that they want to know what is the state of the art.

Which model Kuro do you have and is it losing picture quality?
GqMagic is online now  
post #27 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 05:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,033
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Ken Ross: In your opinion which displays have dethroned the best Kuro ever? Sharp Elite? f8500? Anymore?

Yup. I'd say the 8500, Elite and I'd add the Sony 929 and 950. I just don't focus on MLL in coming to this conclusion. I'm a firm believer in all-around performance.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Ken Ross is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 05:09 PM
Member
 
geezuz747's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I like my F8500 better than my Kuro. When I decided to keep the F8500, my Kuro went into my gym / bar.
geezuz747 is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P65zt60 65 Inch Plasma Hdtv
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off