60ST60 contrast and and display problems.(WOW disk)(Solved) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

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Originally Posted by vlix View Post

Oh wow, it's the cables? I didn't know the cables can affect it like that..

I would have to see it to believe it, because there is no mechanism I know of to account for it.
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HDMI/digital cables in general are largely "snake oil," (quoted because of the common association, but certainly bears repeating) but they are not all created equal. I've found that they either let the signal pass as it should, do not conduct a signal, (defective) or present a degraded signal. (likely due to defect) While I hate to admit it, I was given some Audioquest cables (low end... I want to say Cinnamon?) and replaced my bargain-basement Rocketfish HDMIs. I immediately perceived a greater sense of depth/contrast on some random cable show, so I immediately called myself out on buying into a placebo effect and recruited my girlfriend to conduct a blind test the following evening. I had her trial me ten times: sometimes swapping the cables, other times not, and watched the same two scenes of Man on Fire. Amazingly, I nailed it every time -- and I'm pretty sure that part of my brain imploded when she told me at the test's conclusion.

I don't believe that story for a second. For multiple reasons. rolleyes.gif
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post #32 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 03:30 AM
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Oh wow, it's the cables? I didn't know the cables can affect it like that..
Based on the issue, my initial guess is the BD player that can't pass BTB/WTW signals..
How long is the cable?
I'm using Monoprice premium cables though.. So I think I'm good..

I'm interested in this problem because I'm experiencing it the other way around.. I'm using AVS709HD..
My Samsung 64D8000 and Panasonic 65VT50 still show White 235 even when the contrast is at 100..
I can see WTW up until 240 on both of the sets using 100 contrast..
If I lower it to 95, I can see all the way until 254..
This is normal right? To be able to see WTW even with the highest contrast?
That's normal for some sets, but not all.

But please read my post on page 1 and the 3 factors in setting contrast (no clipping, no color shift, no eye strain).
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post #33 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

That's normal for some sets, but not all.

But please read my post on page 1 and the 3 factors in setting contrast (no clipping, no color shift, no eye strain).

Of course smile.gif, that's why I set my Samsung contrast to 96.. Because setting it to 100 makes it pinkish white..
And the Panny is less than that because I'm watching it in a dark room.. cool.gif
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post #34 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

That's normal for some sets, but not all.

But please read my post on page 1 and the 3 factors in setting contrast (no clipping, no color shift, no eye strain).

The VT50 does clip but not noticeable at 100 contrast smile.gif

65VT60
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post #35 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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You may have a hard time believing this but it's true, I may be new to this forum but not new to tech and not new to techy issues, I think by the steps I went through to eliminate all possible variables I have shown ( somewhat) that I am interested in finding the root caused for things. I am also a mechanical engineer by trade ( in my mid 40s) so I don't take this stuff lightly, I spent the last two days researching and testing all possible solutions, I even doubt solutions until verified..

With all that, I am 100% positive that the cable caused my contrast issue, (as I suspected) as unrelated as it may seem to some I have verifiable and repeatable proof that its in fact possible.

No disrespect intended, I want to thank you none the less for your help, I really appreciate it.
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post #36 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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When I get some free time (maybe this weekend) I will set up my video camera and take some video of the issue I was having and the change I found by just changing the cable..Now,

What I am experence now is what others thought I should be seeing, I can not clip the whites as far as they were in my first picture, I am able to ge the two bars on the right to blend now but even at 100% they are all still visible.

Strange huh? at least now its acting like it should (for a plasma)
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post #37 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Heywould View Post

You may have a hard time believing this but it's true, I may be new to this forum but not new to tech and not new to techy issues, I think by the steps I went through to eliminate all possible variables I have shown ( somewhat) that I am interested in finding the root caused for things. I am also a mechanical engineer by trade ( in my mid 40s) so I don't take this stuff lightly, I spent the last two days researching and testing all possible solutions, I even doubt solutions until verified..

With all that, I am 100% positive that the cable caused my contrast issue, (as I suspected) as unrelated as it may seem to some I have verifiable and repeatable proof that its in fact possible.

No disrespect intended, I want to thank you none the less for your help, I really appreciate it.

No problem, I'm just not aware of the mechanism that would explain it. Bad or inadequate HDMI cables are said to cause no picture, a picture that goes in and out, sparkles, and things like that. I've not read they selectively cause WTW to be clipped, leaving BTB and the rest of the signal alone. The only thing related to cables I can recall that could possibly affect the output like this is the special HDMI/DVI dongle ATI provided with their video cards several years ago, but AFAIK that applies only when used with those ATI cards. Even then, it's the dongle that is special; swapping cables while still using the dongle shouldn't matter.
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post #38 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post


I don't believe that story for a second. For multiple reasons. rolleyes.gif

Neither do I. wink.gif

Please keep in mind that the difference was slight and I would never advise that anyone spends more than $20 on an HDMI cable. I have nothing to gain from reporting my (atypical) experience apart from gaining external perspective into whether or not I have, in fact, gone insane. I once considered myself somewhat savvy in these matters... the world hasn't made sense since.
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post #39 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

No problem, I'm just not aware of the mechanism that would explain it. Bad or inadequate HDMI cables are said to cause no picture, a picture that goes in and out, sparkles, and things like that. I've not read they selectively cause WTW to be clipped, leaving BTB and the rest of the signal alone. The only thing related to cables I can recall that could possibly affect the output like this is the special HDMI/DVI dongle ATI provided with their video cards several years ago, but AFAIK that applies only when used with those ATI cards. Even then, it's the dongle that is special; swapping cables while still using the dongle shouldn't matter.

An interesting test would be to take the old hdmi cable and put it on my new BD player.... As I said, I took the new cable and put on old player and that fixed it.. I wonder if the combo of poor BD player with the poor hdmi cable caused this issue but adding a better cable (somehow) allowed something to pass more efficiently and correct the issue... Ill try that too.. that would help explain why it fixed it..
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post #40 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Heywould View Post

An interesting test would be to take the old hdmi cable and put it on my new BD player.... As I said, I took the new cable and put on old player and that fixed it.. I wonder if the combo of poor BD player with the poor hdmi cable caused this issue but adding a better cable (somehow) allowed something to pass more efficiently and correct the issue... Ill try that too.. that would help explain why it fixed it..

That would be interesting to know. Also, if you haven't done so already, keep everything the same, but replace the new cable with the old and see if the problem comes back.
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post #41 of 50 Old 05-17-2013, 09:19 PM
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heywould, are you going to record a video showing the difference between old and new hdmi cable?
I have the same issue and I can't figure it out.
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post #42 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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heywould, are you going to record a video showing the difference between old and new hdmi cable?
I have the same issue and I can't figure it out.

Yeah, I'll try to get that up today
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post #43 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I have egg on my face.. I know that as a result of this post most people will not trust that I know what I am doing, or trust my advice but I have to be honest and post this just the same..

I set up my camera and hooked up my old Samsung c5500 BD player, use the old HDMI cable and started the WOW disk, to my dismay the contrast was not exibiting the same issue it had that got me started on this in the first place.. I was afraid that might happen.. I tried all of my old cables again and messed with all the settings again, NOTHING would cause the contrast to clip like I showed in my first picture..

Just so everyone knows, I spent the last hour messing with every setting and nothing I did brought that issue back.. The room lighting is exactly the same as it was the first time I tried this too.

I did take a video of it and I can post the link if anyone wants to see it, but all it shows is that its working as it should now..

I did have the same pixel flipper issue though as before, I am posting links to that to show. There are two, one shows the samsung with the square box moving from left to right. (Ignore the scan lines, I was not able to get the camera an TV in sync properly..

The second is with my new SOny 5100 BD player, you will see it works as it should..


Sorry.. it really pisses me off.. its like car trouble,, when you take it to the shop the problem isnt there and the mechanic thinks youre nuts.

http://youtu.be/V0JJbOsx04E Samsung

http://youtu.be/a-TqDabWPp4 Sony
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post #44 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 10:39 AM
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Thanks that pretty much confirmed my thought.

I only have the white clipping issue with my HTPC, and not other sources. So I just have to figure out my settings in htpc
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post #45 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Thanks that pretty much confirmed my thought.

I only have the white clipping issue with my HTPC, and not other sources. So I just have to figure out my settings in htpc

FOr the HTPC you need to make sure you are outputting RGB other wise instead of 16-235 youll be outputting 0-255 I believe, in which case you may see clipping on the higer end of things (as shown at the shootout)....The clipping shouldn't effect video content however as thats 16-235 for the most part.....This is why they emphisized that even though the VT\ZT where not displaying well above the 235/240 mark (I cant remember which exactly) that for "normal" Blur-ray\TV watching it wouldnt mean much smile.gif ......
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post #46 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 11:47 AM
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FOr the HTPC you need to make sure you are outputting RGB other wise instead of 16-235 youll be outputting 0-255 I believe, in which case you may see clipping on the higer end of things (as shown at the shootout)....The clipping shouldn't effect video content however as thats 16-235 for the most part.....This is why they emphisized that even though the VT\ZT where not displaying well above the 235/240 mark (I cant remember which exactly) that for "normal" Blur-ray\TV watching it wouldnt mean much smile.gif ......


How do you output RBG from HTPC to the TV?
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post #47 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 12:24 PM
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How do you output RBG from HTPC to the TV?

Well really it should be 16-235 (I believe) and there should be an option for that I think......Sorry not an expert in those things frown.gif hopefully someone will come along and give an answer. There may be more information in the HTPC section of the forums however....As we have seen though, the answer could be manyfold since it could be cables, source, settings, etc, etc.....
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post #48 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 12:32 PM
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Thanks that pretty much confirmed my thought.

I only have the white clipping issue with my HTPC, and not other sources. So I just have to figure out my settings in htpc

What is your video card?

I understand ATI is a more complicated can of worms with complications, but for Nvidia, which I use, go to "Adjust desktop color settings" and set "Digital Color Format" to RGB. I also set "Content type reported to the display" to "Full-screen videos" which is necessary with many TVs to ensure the card outputs HDTV timing at all times instead of PC timings. Left at "Auto", it interacts badly with the WMC 29/59 bug, causing screen-blanking mode switching lasting a couple of seconds when the problem occurs in 1080i content. Setting my GT430 to YCrCr444, the other option, causes video to exhibit white clipping and my 50ST60 to act as if the Brightness control had been lowered a couple of notches (this despite the option appearing under "Desktop color settings"). Not recommended.

As for PC vs video levels, if all you care about is video, set the TV and card both to 16-235. The card's "Dynamic Range" option is under "Adjust video color settings", "Advanced" tab (and this one really does only affect video). Then your PC's video output will be consistent with other video devices like BD players, at least when using WMC and XBMC with DXVA2 enabled. If you use software renderers, including XBMC without DXVA2, the story may be different, and I can't say anything about that. OTOH, if you want to be consistent with the desktop, so one calibration works for both PC video and desktop (office, gaming, photo viewing, etc) usage, then set both TV and card to 0-255. This will cause the card to expand 16-235 in video to 0-255, losing BTB and WTW, and possibly make your PC calibration inconsistent with other video devices, but lots of people do this, especially those using software renderers. The most important thing is for card and TV to be set to the same dynamic range value.
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post #49 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 12:39 PM
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I did have the same pixel flipper issue though as before, I am posting links to that to show. There are two, one shows the samsung with the square box moving from left to right. (Ignore the scan lines, I was not able to get the camera an TV in sync properly..

The second is with my new SOny 5100 BD player, you will see it works as it should..

Concerning Pixel Flipper and players like the S5100, I wrote this a few days ago:
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The problem with the Disney Pixel Flipper is the players. The newer ones like to turn off after a period of inactivity, which includes playing that Java app. For example, the Sony S5100 shuts off after 45 minutes or so. If you can connect a PC, there is Jscreenfix, but the normal version likes to blink 0:00 after 20 minutes in the bottom right corner, and I see no way to disable that behavior. OTOH, the screensaver version doesn't do that, and it's free to boot. But can you believe it, neither one of them hides the mouse while running! Fortunately, that can be fixed in various ways. The simplest is to move the cursor to the bottom left corner, but that still leaves the tip visible. To actually hide it, I use Autohotkey. If you have that program, search its Help file for "SystemCursor". You should find some sample script that binds a mouse visibility toggle to Win+C. It works perfectly. So, after installing Jscreenfix screensaver version, adding the mouse toggler to my main AHK startup script, setting the screensaver timer to 1 minute when I want flip pixels, and using Win+C to hide the mouse, I have a Pixel Flipper equivalent I can leave running overnight. When I don't want to use it, I use Win+C again to show the mouse, and I turn the screensaver back off. (It's on my gaming PC, and normally it's off as I never leave it unattended while using it.) The things we do for our plasmas. rolleyes.gif
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post #50 of 50 Old 05-18-2013, 12:49 PM
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ATI/AMD isn't very complicated... unlike Nvidia, the color space you choose will affect both desktop and media making it consistent. In the AMD control center, under pixel format, either set it to RGB Full (0-255) and your Panasonic's HDMI/DVI range setting to Nonstandard, or RGB Limited (16-235) and your Panasonic to Standard (or Auto). To pass blacker than black or whiter than white on AMD systems, you have to output RGB 0-255, set your media player to 16-235 and your display to Standard (or Auto)... this will cause your desktop and videos to have mis-matched levels though. Personally I just recommend you output RGB 0-255 and set your Panasonic to Nonstandard, unless you have other devices sharing an HDMI port that use the standard video range (16-235)... then you have to use RGB 16-235 to keep it consistent with your other devices, as sawfish was saying.
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