60ST60 contrast and and display problems.(WOW disk)(Solved) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this in the settings and issues thread but there is a lot of discussion and I'm worried this will get lost.

I have the 60ST60, I am using Cnet settings and for the most part things are ok, I had an issue with black clipping so I decided to get the WOW disk. This is where the troubles started. I have two issues and I am not sure if its the Blu ray player, cable or TV. I doubt the cable because I tried 6 different high speed cables and I tried plugging directly in the TV HDIM (all three ports) with the same issue.

The first issue is that I cannot calibrate the contrast using the disk, I have used both the basic and the advanced, the basic for those that don’t know has two gray bars about 4 inches long on the left and right side of the screen mid way up, they are horizontal bars. The intention is to adjust the contrast until you see the vertical bands on the right from top to bottom through the horizontal bar.. No matter what I do I cannot see ANY vertical bars on the right, For those who know the WOW disk, the bars will flash briefly to show you where they are (to prevent your eyes from fatigue)The bars do flash so I know they are there.

To make the issue brief, I can not see any bars on the contrast adjustment page no matter what I try I have gone from 0-100 and I get only a slight gray bar on the left. Ive adjusted the brightness, gamma etc... NOTHING makes a difference.

What would cause this? The contrast makes a very noticeable difference when adjusted in regular content.


The second issue is that the pixel flipper doesn’t work either. When I start it is will flip the whole screen for a split second, but it will then only flip a small portion of the screen, its like a square that moves all over the screen slowly at first the box is about 10 inches square but it shrinks to about 2 or 3 inches. it will slowly work its way up to the top of the screen and move from left to right.

The rest of the screen has the noise pattern its just not moving.

Are these two related? could this be the bluray player? or the TV?

I adjusted the format to all of the choices, same thing, I have used pixel direct on and off are the same, I have changed the HDMI content.... I changed everything and nothing fixes either problem..

anyone have any ideas?


CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

The top image is what my set looks like, the bottom is what it should look like, or close to it.. I can not even get the vertical bars to show as you can see.
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post #2 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 09:46 AM
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Have you turned off all enhancements including the pixel orbiter and C.A.T.S.? Is there anything else that might be enhancing ie blu-ray, avr?

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post #3 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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ALl settings are off. I have tried to connect the Blu ray directly to the TV on each HDMI port, I have tried to reset the TV to factory defaults and the BD player to defaults too. I have set the BD to high color (or what ever its called) and to standard. I set the HDMI to standard and non standard color, nothing changes it.

I went through each setting on the TV and BD with a fine tooth comb to see if anything would change it, no luck..I am hoping its the BD player because everything looks pretty good (aside from clipping blacks)

The same two issue happen no matter what I try..

I should also mention, when watching PSYCH on netflix through the ROKU I get what looks like flashing or fluxuating whites on bright scens when the camera is panning. It happens on hockey games too when the camera pans, if there are areas of bright areas with small amounts of darker post the screen will flash or fluxuate..

I am positive the ECO is off, the CATS is off, and auto black level and white level settings are off or at 0.. believe me, Ive tried everything..
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post #4 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 09:55 AM
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Did you follow the order that the Wow disc tells you to use? Have you tried turning brightness down?

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post #5 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 09:58 AM
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Waht mdoe are you trying to adjust your setitnng currently in? Also, I would suggest a reset of all picture settings and start from scratch.....

You may also want to take a look in the WOW thread over in the Display Calibration (I think) section.....

Last but not least, you want to make sure that you are not processing the picture via the Blu-ray player, double check the settings on it and make sure there is ntohing that could be casuing this...
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post #6 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Did you follow the order that the Wow disc tells you to use? Have you tried turning brightness down?

Yes, i even turned the brightness all the way to 0 and then back to 50, i tried changing both the contrast and brightness in oposite directions while on that screen to see if I could make the bars show.. nothing worked. i changed the gamma from s-curve to 2.6 and everwhere in between. I set all detail settings to default and then back to cnets settigns, I tried all of he factory options for display,, Vivid, standard etc.. nothing changes either issue.
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post #7 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Waht mdoe are you trying to adjust your setitnng currently in? Also, I would suggest a reset of all picture settings and start from scratch.....

You may also want to take a look in the WOW thread over in the Display Calibration (I think) section.....

Last but not least, you want to make sure that you are not processing the picture via the Blu-ray player, double check the settings on it and make sure there is ntohing that could be casuing this...

Im using custom but Ive tried it on each mode.

I have changed each device setting to default and then verified that there is no processing option left on. I also changed the settings back to both Dnice and Cnets..

I added more detail of what I had done in an edit to my other posts in this thread.

I will go to the WOW thread and see if that helps..

Thanks
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post #8 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Heywould View Post

Im using custom but Ive tried it on each mode.

I have changed each device setting to default and then verified that there is no processing option left on. I also changed the settings back to both Dnice and Cnets..

I added more detail of what I had done in an edit to my other posts in this thread.

I will go to the WOW thread and see if that helps..

Thanks

Do you have Panel Luminance set to Mid and not high or low?
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post #9 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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its at mid but I have changed it to low and high,, I also had the other setting (for get the name) set to light but set to dark had no affect
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post #10 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heywould View Post

its at mid but I have changed it to low and high,, I also had the other setting (for get the name) set to light but set to dark had no affect

That would be the black level setting it should be on "light"

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post #11 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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That would be the black level setting it should be on "light"

Its on light,, just tested it on dark to see if it made any difference.
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post #12 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
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Its on light,, just tested it on dark to see if it made any difference.

Dark would crush blacks not familiar with the WOW disk but there are two possibilities in my mind, something in you chain is clipping whites or you have a defective set. If you had the AVS 709 cal disk you could see where the whites are being clipped. I can't think of any scenario where the contrast control wouldn't have any effect on a wtw pattern.

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post #13 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Dark would crush blacks not familiar with the WOW disk but there are two possibilities in my mind, something in you chain is clipping whites or you have a defective set. If you had the AVS 709 cal disk you could see where the whites are being clipped. I can't think of any scenario where the contrast control wouldn't have any effect on a wtw pattern.

I am hoping its either the BD player, OR the cables.. I know the cables seem unlikely but I am also having an issue with the pixel orbiter on the WOW disk (See in my original post) That issue I feel could be due to poor data transfer through the cables.. I have 6 different cables Ive tried and none changed anything, only one of them is listed as high speed and thats only HDMI 1.3..

whites on full screen at the WTW screen look dull and gray, this is similar to watching hockey but slightly worse..

The TV has a great picture but I have these two issues and I want to be sure Im getting the best results..


I will buy a new model BD player and some newer cables today to see if that helps.. (i wanted a 3D player anyway.)
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post #14 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 12:59 PM
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It's not going to be the cables. The easiest explanation is that the BD player is outputting PC levels, 0-255, which expands the video from 16-235, losing BTB and WTW. If this is happening, you should see a similar issue with the Brightness pattern; you won't see any blacks < 16. The WOW docs say that the middle of the Contrast pattern is ideal white, which should be 235. The bars on the left hand side should be < 235, while those on the right hand side should be > 235, or WTW. I reiterate what I said in the other thread about the AVS709HD white clipping pattern allowing you to determine this exactly, as it labels things with the actual numbers. I believe the WOW "Advanced Patterns" (the ones with the checkerboard and stars) label things with percentages and would serve a similar purpose.
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post #15 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not going to be the cables. The easiest explanation is that the BD player is outputting PC levels, 0-255, which expands the video from 16-235, losing BTB and WTW. If this is happening, you should see a similar issue with the Brightness pattern; you won't see any blacks < 16. The WOW docs say that the middle of the Contrast pattern is ideal white, which should be 235. The bars on the left hand side should be < 235, while those on the right hand side should be > 235, or WTW. I reiterate what I said in the other thread about the AVS709HD white clipping pattern allowing you to determine this exactly, as it labels things with the actual numbers. I believe the WOW "Advanced Patterns" (the ones with the checkerboard and stars) label things with percentages and would serve a similar purpose.

I actaully did the advanced pattern too on the WTW and I see no stars, I only used the basic verison to explain this issue. I will post pics off my actual set tonight..

The black or BTB isnt a real problem.. i can get the blacks the required result using he disk.. there are stars on the right and left of the center, the center is ideal, the results should be that you can just start to make out the center star, this is easy to do with the brighness settings.. I know the brightness adjustment is working well because I can make it so bright that all stars show and so dark that none show.. This seems ok..

The white or WTW is whats getting me.
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post #16 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 01:22 PM
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So for some reason, whites are selectively being clipped. That's weird. It might be useful to see if this happens with other sources, like a USB drive playing the AVS709HD patterns or another BD player. Try different HDMI inputs, too. If the 60" is like the 50", you ought to be getting WTW (and BTB, of course).
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post #17 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I will run the AVS709HD tonight, if I can run of a USB that would be great.. I thought I had to burn it.. I didn’t want to run it as an ISO off computer because I don’t want my HTPC Video card to come into question..

I want to test the TV right at the source.. I think I may buy a new BD player tonight since I wanted 3D.

I have tried all 3 Ports on the tv, I have also tried all the ports on my AVR just to see if that did anything..

Nothing I have done has made any change, not even slightly. the only common denominator is the BD player and cables.. I only suspected cables because I will get screen flashing effect on panning with very bright scenes.. I started noticing this while watching some old black and white shows on netflix and last night while watching Psych (Again on netflix) I saw very noticible flashing, as if the refreshrate was set low.. it looked like flickering..That is through a Roku player though, the roku 3..

I will try the same scene using the bult in netflix to see if I get the same thing.

Thanks for helping me out with this..
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Quote:
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I will run the AVS709HD tonight, if I can run of a USB that would be great.. I thought I had to burn it.. I didn’t want to run it as an ISO off computer because I don’t want my HTPC Video card to come into question..

There's a version that's all MP4 files, and the TV can play them off a USB (thumb) drive.
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post #19 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 02:02 PM
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If I remember correctly and if your talking about not being able to use the white on your tv, meaning no matter which way you adjust you can make the white stars or bars go away it's ok. I remember reading the earlier pages on the wow forum here on AVS and the director of the disk would answer a ton of questions. He said that with newer modle TVs in some cases you CAN'T clip whites. The manufactuers have put a limit to how far you can go with white. He even said at the time on his ST30 that when he had it professionally calibrated his whites were set to 100.

He said its ok to run it at a 100 but for practical purposes A.K.A the likelyhood the plasma TV will start buzzing I wouldn't set it that high. Again this is only if your're talking about whites and I think contrast is the white levels and brightness is black but I get the confused when I'm not actually looking at my TV lol
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post #20 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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If I remember correctly and if your talking about not being able to use the white on your tv, meaning no matter which way you adjust you can make the white stars or bars go away it's ok. I remember reading the earlier pages on the wow forum here on AVS and the director of the disk would answer a ton of questions. He said that with newer modle TVs in some cases you CAN'T clip whites. The manufactuers have put a limit to how far you can go with white. He even said at the time on his ST30 that when he had it professionally calibrated his whites were set to 100.

He said its ok to run it at a 100 but for practical purposes A.K.A the likelyhood the plasma TV will start buzzing I wouldn't set it that high. Again this is only if your're talking about whites and I think contrast is the white levels and brightness is black but I get the confused when I'm not actually looking at my TV lol


Thanks, I actually have what I think is the oposite of what you are saying.. I posted two pictures.. I am not able to lower the contrast (whites) to allow proper calibration, all the whites a clipped and washed out.. take a look at the two pictures, the top picture is what my TV does,,, is that what you are saying is ok?
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post #21 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 03:17 PM
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I have the same issue and have gone through all the steps the OP has done. the one difference is that my Bluray player is a PS3. is there a setting I'm not aware of that can change the PC levels from 0-255, to 16-235?
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post #22 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 04:51 PM
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Thanks, I actually have what I think is the oposite of what you are saying.. I posted two pictures.. I am not able to lower the contrast (whites) to allow proper calibration, all the whites a clipped and washed out.. take a look at the two pictures, the top picture is what my TV does,,, is that what you are saying is ok?

Im' sorry so much for me helping lol. I would pk RBFilms, he was one of the lead guys fort he wow disc and is a member of avs! he was always nice and willing to help anybody ut with questions about the wow disc. Goodluck I hope he can help you out!
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Im' sorry so much for me helping lol. I would pk RBFilms, he was one of the lead guys fort he wow disc and is a member of avs! he was always nice and willing to help anybody ut with questions about the wow disc. Goodluck I hope he can help you out!

PM not pk RBFilms sorry My son likes to push buttons
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post #24 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 05:01 PM
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I have the same issue and have gone through all the steps the OP has done. the one difference is that my Bluray player is a PS3. is there a setting I'm not aware of that can change the PC levels from 0-255, to 16-235?

FOr what its worth I also know that people early on where having issues with the disc and their ps3. I'm not sure why, but if you can maybe check the disc out at a friends or something and see how it works. maybe its the player
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post #25 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 06:48 PM
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FOr what its worth I also know that people early on where having issues with the disc and their ps3. I'm not sure why, but if you can maybe check the disc out at a friends or something and see how it works. maybe its the player

After I got back home I was able to solve the issue! In the PS3 menu under Settings>Display Settings>Y pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super White (HDMI) needs to be set to "On"

After doing this I able able to see the bars on the left side and calibrate appropriately. Heywould I would see if there is a similar setting for your Bluray player as well.
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post #26 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 08:17 PM
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Blu-Ray is mastered using a range of 16-235 where 16 is reference black and 235 is reference white. Detail above 235 is whiter than white and detail below 16 is blacker than black. Super-white enables the PS3 to pass BTB/WTW information to your display and this detail gets clipped with it off.

Note that contrast essentially sets the white level of your display, or the peak of the dynamic range of your display. Contrast test patterns only help you see if you're clipping or removing white detail, and sometimes they help show any color shift in white detail (ie white starts to turn pink). There's a third factor when setting contrast, and that is how much brightness your eyes can handle in your viewing environment. There's nothing really wrong with having your contrast lower than optimal (according to the test pattern), but having your contrast too high can cause eye strain.
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post #27 of 50 Old 05-15-2013, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I will post more but for now I will say this. I was able to get my existing bd player to work with a new hdmi cable, as a suspected... I have 6 or 7 older cables I got from amazon and they all had no affect on my two issues, I went to best buy and got a new high speed hdmi and put in the Samsung bd player, the contrast setting on the wow disk then worked as it should.. I still had the pixel flipper issue though, I bought a Sony 3d player 5100 I think, that resolved the pixel flipper issue and the contrast was even better, soooooo it was both the hdmi cable ( don't let anyone tell you they are all the same) and the bd player... All is good now.
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post #28 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 02:09 AM
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I will post more but for now I will say this. I was able to get my existing bd player to work with a new hdmi cable, as a suspected... I have 6 or 7 older cables I got from amazon and they all had no affect on my two issues, I went to best buy and got a new high speed hdmi and put in the Samsung bd player, the contrast setting on the wow disk then worked as it should.. I still had the pixel flipper issue though, I bought a Sony 3d player 5100 I think, that resolved the pixel flipper issue and the contrast was even better, soooooo it was both the hdmi cable ( don't let anyone tell you they are all the same) and the bd player... All is good now.

Oh wow, it's the cables? I didn't know the cables can affect it like that..
Based on the issue, my initial guess is the BD player that can't pass BTB/WTW signals..
How long is the cable?
I'm using Monoprice premium cables though.. So I think I'm good..

I'm interested in this problem because I'm experiencing it the other way around.. I'm using AVS709HD..
My Samsung 64D8000 and Panasonic 65VT50 still show White 235 even when the contrast is at 100..
I can see WTW up until 240 on both of the sets using 100 contrast..
If I lower it to 95, I can see all the way until 254..
This is normal right? To be able to see WTW even with the highest contrast?
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post #29 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 02:57 AM
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Yes normal my set clips at 244 in day mode

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post #30 of 50 Old 05-16-2013, 03:12 AM
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Oh wow, it's the cables? I didn't know the cables can affect it like that..

HDMI/digital cables in general are largely "snake oil," (quoted because of the common association, but certainly bears repeating) but they are not all created equal. I've found that they either let the signal pass as it should, do not conduct a signal, (defective) or present a degraded signal. (likely due to defect) While I hate to admit it, I was given some Audioquest cables (low end... I want to say Cinnamon?) and replaced my bargain-basement Rocketfish HDMIs. I immediately perceived a greater sense of depth/contrast on some random cable show, so I immediately called myself out on buying into a placebo effect and recruited my girlfriend to conduct a blind test the following evening. I had her trial me ten times: sometimes swapping the cables, other times not, and watched the same two scenes of Man on Fire. Amazingly, I nailed it every time -- and I'm pretty sure that part of my brain imploded when she told me at the test's conclusion.

The contents of this thread do present an extreme case, however.
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