Panasonic ST60 vs S60 (50) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 77 Old 05-17-2013, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi: I'm trying to decide which one to buy? I've read up on both and inquired at various stores so far. I do play some games also watch a fair bit of sports(football, hockey mostly and movies too!!) My room is bright during the early part of the day(morning) otherwise a non-issue. I have an Apple TV 3 and a PS3 so don't really need the "smart" features as far as 3D could care less so the bottom line is the ST that much better in terms PQ over the S? Up here in Canada it seems the difference in price is about $300-$400+ tax. Thanks for the help

P.S I'm currently using a 2008 720p Panasonic as a reference point
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post #2 of 77 Old 05-17-2013, 11:28 PM
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An ST60 will obliterate the S60. Not that S60 is any bad, it's just the ST60 is so much better. I also thought there would be minor differences between the two because it was like that historically, but not this year. I don't know why Panasonic has made the ST60 "too" good, because now the VT60 has terrible value in comparison. When I was looking around the plasmas in a light controlled showroom, the F8500, the VT60, and the ST60 was the obvious top-tier. S60,UT50,GT50 were the next tier. The ST60's black was extremely competitive even against the VT60 and the F8500. That's how good the ST60 is. This year, I only consider the F8500 and the ST60 as the best plasmas I would actually buy, but unfortunately, both have terrible input lags which is a big shame, because they are the perfect gamer's display. (The S60 can get adequately bright, but never in the region of the ST60)

So if you're concerned with the input lag, I hate to tell you this, but yes, the S60 will be your only option. I'm actually contemplating buying one too, despite my absolute love for the ST60 and the F8500.
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post #3 of 77 Old 05-18-2013, 07:44 AM
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ST60 is the better display and even netter value. I am a proponent of value, but the S60 needs to drop more in price to compete with ST60 in value.
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post #4 of 77 Old 05-18-2013, 01:28 PM
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IMO, S60 if you are not going to have the ST60 pro-calibrated or DIY calibrated.

The ST60 has a 10-pt grayscale and 10-pt gamma (vs 2-pt grayscale and no detailed gamma adjustments on the S60)

I personally went with the S60 since I didn't need the 3D features or the anti-reflective filter. Seeing how I since purchased a spectrometer (cost me $400) to perform a better calibration myself, I would have bought the ST60 just to get the better calibrated picture.

Both should have near the same PQ performance aside from the ST60 having the better overall PQ if it is calibrated with a meter + software + patterns.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

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post #5 of 77 Old 05-19-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereoguy99 View Post

Hi: I'm trying to decide which one to buy? I've read up on both and inquired at various stores so far. I do play some games also watch a fair bit of sports(football, hockey mostly and movies too!!) My room is bright during the early part of the day(morning) otherwise a non-issue. I have an Apple TV 3 and a PS3 so don't really need the "smart" features as far as 3D could care less so the bottom line is the ST that much better in terms PQ over the S? Up here in Canada it seems the difference in price is about $300-$400+ tax. P.S I'm currently using a 2008 720p Panasonic as a reference point

While the S60 is no slouch, the ST60 does have the more superior NeoPlasma panel with the fast-switching phosphors (same exact panel and AR Filter as used on the VT60) and it also has a better Black Filter on the panel. The ST60's black levels are better, the screen is brighter, and it has better processing etc. The 3D models all use better Plasma panels and that does historically translate to better 2D picture quality even if you never use the 3D feature.

If you're intent on getting the non-3D model, Panasonic is making a 50" version of their very popular S64 series warehouse model which as you probably already know is an S60 but with the ST60's AR Filter added to the outer glass. That might be a happy medium if you absolutely don't want the higher end ST60.

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post #6 of 77 Old 06-06-2013, 02:57 AM
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It really is such a shame that the ST60 does have that input lag. http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/
I am so torn on which to buy. I would love the ST60 for it's picture quality, but I do so much gaming that I don't want to be hindered by input lag
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post #7 of 77 Old 06-19-2013, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Update: As you know I recently bought a 55ST50 from sears Canada returned it as I was pretty certain something was amiss as it was a floor model and bought a 55ST60 all I can say is WOW what a different while the colors are pretty similar that is the only area that the ST50 is almost as good as the ST60!!! Thanks to all that helped me out much appreciated!!
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post #8 of 77 Old 06-26-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereoguy99 View Post

Update: As you know I recently bought a 55ST50 from sears Canada returned it as I was pretty certain something was amiss as it was a floor model and bought a 55ST60 all I can say is WOW what a different while the colors are pretty similar that is the only area that the ST50 is almost as good as the ST60!!! Thanks to all that helped me out much appreciated!!

Dood, so you did go with the ST60? I thought you didn't want lag?
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post #9 of 77 Old 07-18-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi: I do not notice much if any lag and the picture is well unbelievable!!! Not much of a gamer at this point so I'm very very happy with my purchase!!!
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post #10 of 77 Old 08-22-2013, 02:06 PM
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My friend just bought a 50" S64 from Costco for 599 and it has the same pro settings as ST60, including gamma controller. This TV is fantastic and I have a Pioneer KRP-500M.
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post #11 of 77 Old 09-26-2013, 07:18 PM
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Bumping this thread up.  I bought the S60 for $650 at BB, it's an incredible value.  I do most of my watching, movies, at night.  Though I was pretty disappointed with the daytime football performance due to the wash out.  Room has a lot of ambient light though only direct light in the morning.

 

Any of you guys have had both can you confirm the extra brightness/AR on the ST60 is significant?  I'm willing to exchange/upgrade for this even though it's less than 10% of my viewing. 

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post #12 of 77 Old 09-26-2013, 08:13 PM
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Good thread! I am trying to decide between the S60 and ST60 in the 60 inch size for my bedroom(currently have an old 50" Toshiba plasma that is in the process of cratering). Right now, on Amazon the ST60 price premium is $500 over the S60. We do not even own a video game box, so apparently input lag is not an issue. Since the odds are that whichever series we buy will be on that wall for at least 10 years, would most of you agree that the extra $500 for the ST60 is worth it? I do consider myself a videophile, and want the best black levels, gradations, and color accuracy I can get.

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post #13 of 77 Old 09-27-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Good thread! I am trying to decide between the S60 and ST60 in the 60 inch size for my bedroom(currently have an old 50" Toshiba plasma that is in the process of cratering). Right now, on Amazon the ST60 price premium is $500 over the S60. We do not even own a video game box, so apparently input lag is not an issue. Since the odds are that whichever series we buy will be on that wall for at least 10 years, would most of you agree that the extra $500 for the ST60 is worth it? I do consider myself a videophile, and want the best black levels, gradations, and color accuracy I can get.


New owner of the ST60...I've had it not more than a week and I love it! Well worth the $500 in my opinion. They'll be times that I'm watching it and all of a sudden it hits me...."This freaking picture is so awesome"! It's bright....it's clear as hell and has great color.

I moved up from a Samsung 50" and there's absolutely no comparison to the ST60 in picture quality. It's in my living room and it faces a sliding glass door, that would be at my back when watching, and I have windows to the side of it. With the tv off you can see some reflection but it's very little and with the tv on I can't even notice it.

It's a no brainer, if you have the extra $500 to spend....spend it! You'll be happy you did!
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post #14 of 77 Old 09-27-2013, 11:39 AM
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New owner of the ST60...I've had it not more than a week and I love it! Well worth the $500 in my opinion. They'll be times that I'm watching it and all of a sudden it hits me...."This freaking picture is so awesome"! It's bright....it's clear as hell and has great color.

I moved up from a Samsung 50" and there's absolutely no comparison to the ST60 in picture quality. It's in my living room and it faces a sliding glass door, that would be at my back when watching, and I have windows to the side of it. With the tv off you can see some reflection but it's very little and with the tv on I can't even notice it.

It's a no brainer, if you have the extra $500 to spend....spend it! You'll be happy you did!

 

Thanks for the reply, after spending far too much time in the ST thread I'm pretty much set on swapping my S60 for the ST. 

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post #15 of 77 Old 09-27-2013, 03:36 PM
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BTW, what is the best recent price anybody has seen on the 60ST60? Anybody seen it for less than $1500?

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post #16 of 77 Old 09-28-2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Good thread! I am trying to decide between the S60 and ST60 in the 60 inch size for my bedroom(currently have an old 50" Toshiba plasma that is in the process of cratering). Right now, on Amazon the ST60 price premium is $500 over the S60. We do not even own a video game box, so apparently input lag is not an issue. Since the odds are that whichever series we buy will be on that wall for at least 10 years, would most of you agree that the extra $500 for the ST60 is worth it? I do consider myself a videophile, and want the best black levels, gradations, and color accuracy I can get.

Well, it's no longer in the process of cratering. Seems to be a goner now. I don't like to rush purchases, but my wife is not going to put up with not having her TV on the wall in the bedroom. Leaning strongly towards the 60ST60 at this point.

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post #17 of 77 Old 09-28-2013, 06:26 PM
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Hey guys I got a question? I'm not sure what I should do, should i get the st60 50 inch or should get the s60 60 inch. I dont really care about the 3d.just wondering if wat the best choice...They are both the same price in my area. Thanks for the help!
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post #18 of 77 Old 10-03-2013, 11:25 PM
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HEre is my comparison thread

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490539/heads-up-comparison-65-s64-vs-60-st60-ask-me-questions

The St60 has better whites, better blacks and handles motion better.

Unless you are a hardcore gamer (the st60 has lag but its not a deal breaker) I would highly recommend the st60 over the s60
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post #19 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 06:19 AM
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Reviving this thread to ask a question.

I am looking for a 50" tv for the bedroom (wall mount on an inside wall. There is almost no sunlight in the room, ever. The lighting is mostly ceiling recessed lighting, and about half of the time the TV will be on with no lights (with the rest using the recessed lighting). There will be no gaming on the tv, with only occasional blu-ray usage.

Can anyone think of a reason why the S60 isn't enough TV? I don't want to spend more than I need to, and the ST60 seems like it will run at least 400 more, and comparable quality LED's will be 100s more as well. Between Discovery shop at home discounts, the S60 is now available in the upper $500s, while the ST60 is $400 more. I've already got a great main tv in the den (55B8500 Samsung), will NEVER use 3D in the BR, so I'm not seeing the need for the $350-$400.

Any thoughts?
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post #20 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonandabby View Post

Reviving this thread to ask a question.

I am looking for a 50" tv for the bedroom (wall mount on an inside wall. There is almost no sunlight in the room, ever. The lighting is mostly ceiling recessed lighting, and about half of the time the TV will be on with no lights (with the rest using the recessed lighting). There will be no gaming on the tv, with only occasional blu-ray usage.

Can anyone think of a reason why the S60 isn't enough TV? I don't want to spend more than I need to, and the ST60 seems like it will run at least 400 more, and comparable quality LED's will be 100s more as well. Between Discovery shop at home discounts, the S60 is now available in the upper $500s, while the ST60 is $400 more. I've already got a great main tv in the den (55B8500 Samsung), will NEVER use 3D in the BR, so I'm not seeing the need for the $350-$400.

Any thoughts?

OK, your situation is almost identical to mine. Our bedroom situation sounds pretty much like yours, in that it can be made pretty dark even in the daytime. We had a Toshiba 50" plasma in there for about 6 years, until it died and was going to cost $657 to repair it.eek.gif

Well, we did not realize how much more dim the new Panasonic plasmas are, compared to plasmas of 4-6 years ago. So, I bought a Panasonic 60S60 plasma set. Well, it turned out it is just too dim compared to the Toshiba, and it also has very aggressive ABL, which is not good for cable TV viewing, since the brightness of the image is constantly changing. Perhaps our nearly 60 year old eyes need more light--I don't know for sure. The ST60 series do get brighter than the S60 series, so that may be an option if you really want a plasma and don't want to fork out the $$ for a Samsung 8500 series. At this point, I'm struggling to decide whether to try the 60ST60 or switch over to LED.

Sounds like you will be mostly watching general TV programming, so I'd recommend trying to really get a look at the S60 series on something like ESPN or one of the news channels. That way, you can see how the ABL works when they put up those information banners across the bottom or top of the screen.

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post #21 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonandabby View Post

Reviving this thread to ask a question.

I am looking for a 50" tv for the bedroom (wall mount on an inside wall. There is almost no sunlight in the room, ever. The lighting is mostly ceiling recessed lighting, and about half of the time the TV will be on with no lights (with the rest using the recessed lighting).

The Louver Filter that comes on the ST60 (and S64, VT60, ZT60) is specifically designed so that it rejects light from overhead light sources (such as recessed ceiling lights) and the screen will not wash out like the S60 does so there's one big advantage right there, and that filter also softens reflections so if you can see any lights reflecting in the screen they will be substantially muted and much less "mirror-like" like they'd be on the S60 (which is literally like a dark mirror), especially when watching darker content. The ST60 is also a bit brighter so during brighter content it will punch through the light better as well.


Quote:
There will be no gaming on the tv, with only occasional blu-ray usage.

The ST60 is better for Blu-Ray viewing (mostly due to it's better black levels and higher contrast ratio).


Quote:
Can anyone think of a reason why the S60 isn't enough TV? I don't want to spend more than I need to, and the ST60 seems like it will run at least 400 more, and comparable quality LED's will be 100s more as well. Between Discovery shop at home discounts, the S60 is now available in the upper $500s, while the ST60 is $400 more. I've already got a great main tv in the den (55B8500 Samsung), will NEVER use 3D in the BR, so I'm not seeing the need for the $350-$400. Any thoughts?

The only two advantages the S60 has over the ST60 is (A) less gaming lag, and (B) lower price, and that's it. Personally i'd go for the better TV (the higher cost spread out over several years i'd be keeping the TV equals only a few bucks more per month), but you have to ask yourself if the ST60's advantages are worth the extra money or not TO YOU. There are plenty of S60 owners who didn't feel the ST60 was worth the extra money (of they'd have an ST60), and there are also plenty of ST60 owners who gladly paid extra to get the better display.

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post #22 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 08:29 AM
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The S60 also has insufficient steps of gradation to eliminate visible banding, so the ST60 has an advantage there too.
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post #23 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

The Louver Filter that comes on the ST60 (and S64, VT60, ZT60) is specifically designed so that it rejects light from overhead light sources (such as recessed ceiling lights) and the screen will not wash out like the S60 does so there's one big advantage right there, and that filter also softens reflections so if you can see any lights reflecting in the screen they will be substantially muted and much less "mirror-like" like they'd be on the S60 (which is literally like a dark mirror), especially when watching darker content. The ST60 is also a bit brighter so during brighter content it will punch through the light better as well.
The ST60 is better for Blu-Ray viewing (mostly due to it's better black levels and higher contrast ratio).
The only two advantages the S60 has over the ST60 is (A) less gaming lag, and (B) lower price, and that's it. Personally i'd go for the better TV (the higher cost spread out over several years i'd be keeping the TV equals only a few bucks more per month), but you have to ask yourself if the ST60's advantages are worth the extra money or not TO YOU. There are plenty of S60 owners who didn't feel the ST60 was worth the extra money (of they'd have an ST60), and there are also plenty of ST60 owners who gladly paid extra to get the better display.


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The S60 also has insufficient steps of gradation to eliminate visible banding, so the ST60 has an advantage there too.



IMO, the biggest difference between these two models is the filter and picture brightness. As far as the measurements are concerned, and what I have seen, the ST60 does better in brighter room environments. In dim lightning conditions, with both sets calibrated properly in the Cinema mode, they are very close. With certain material, posterization and color banding is minimized on the ST60, but the difference is rather subtle and shouldn't be a deal breaker. Contrast and blacks levels are very close and have little impact on over all PQ. What I don't like about the S60 is it's poor handling of 24p content, which is not a major flaw, but shouldn't be an issue on a quality set. What I don't like about the ST60 is it's rather busy home screen display and slow browsing capability. Personally, I prefer the S64, (if you can find one) if you don't need 3D or smart features, and are not concerned with bright room environments. However, keep in mind all the Panasonic PDP's are not very bright, including the VT60, which is actually the dimmest panel in the line.

http://www.rtings.com/reviews/tv/plasma/panasonic/s60/compare#preview


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post #24 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

The S60 also has insufficient steps of gradation to eliminate visible banding, so the ST60 has an advantage there too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post


IMO, the biggest difference between these two models is the filter and picture brightness. As far as the measurements are concerned, and what I have seen, the ST60 does better in brighter room environments. In dim lightning conditions, with both sets calibrated properly in the Cinema mode, they are very close. With certain material, posterization and color banding is minimized on the ST60, but the difference is rather subtle and shouldn't be a deal breaker. Contrast and blacks levels are very close and have little impact on over all PQ. What I don't like about the S60 is it's poor handling of 24p content, which is not a major flaw, but shouldn't be an issue on a quality set. What I don't like about the ST60 is it's rather busy home screen display and slow browsing capability. Personally, I prefer the S64, (if you can find one) if you don't need 3D or smart features, and are not concerned with bright room environments. However, keep in mind all the Panasonic PDP's are not very bright, including the VT60, which is actually the dimmest panel in the line.

http://www.rtings.com/reviews/tv/plasma/panasonic/s60/compare#preview


Ian

I do agree that the color banding (on whites/grays) and general luminance banding (on colors other than white/gray) is bothersome at times on the S60. At first I though this was an issue specific to the S60, since it's an entry level 1080p model. However, reading up on the ST60 revealed that it too suffers from banding, albeit slightly less so with certain content. If the ST60 trounced the S60 with regards to banding, I might say that alone would make it worth the extra $350-$400 (since it's by far the biggest PQ flaw this TV has and probably the only one I haven't gotten used to).

BTW, in your tests, which material showed the biggest improvement in posterization and color banding on the ST60?
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post #25 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 09:47 AM
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I should add that one advantage the S60 has over the ST60 is the S60 seems to be far more resistant to image retention than the ST50 I previously owned (I assume the ST60 is similar in this regard). Ideally, I'd want the ST60 without the A/R filter, because I think there is a slight (but not insignificant) loss of image transparency due to the presence of an A/R filter, but I know this is a minority view.
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post #26 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 09:49 AM
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The bottom line though is the ST60 is just a hell of a good set at any price and one of the greatest bargains at its actual price.
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post #27 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 10:15 AM
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I do agree that the color banding (on whites/grays) and general luminance banding (on colors other than white/gray) is bothersome at times on the S60. At first I though this was an issue specific to the S60, since it's an entry level 1080p model. However, reading up on the ST60 revealed that it too suffers from banding, albeit slightly less so with certain content. If the ST60 trounced the S60 with regards to banding, I might say that alone would make it worth the extra $350-$400 (since it's by far the biggest PQ flaw this TV has and probably the only one I haven't gotten used to).

BTW, in your tests, which material showed the biggest improvement in posterization and color banding on the ST60?


I believe it was compressed content like the kind you see from broadcasts and streaming. That being said, I've yet to see a PDP that doesn't have banding issues since false contouring is a by product of the technology.


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post #28 of 77 Old 11-17-2013, 10:02 PM
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I believe it was compressed content like the kind you see from broadcasts and streaming. That being said, I've yet to see a PDP that doesn't have banding issues since false contouring is a by product of the technology.


Ian

Can you elaborate?
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post #29 of 77 Old 11-18-2013, 06:21 AM
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However, keep in mind all the Panasonic PDP's are not very bright, including the VT60, which is actually the dimmest panel in the line.

Ian

I won't go down the rabbit hole regarding some of your other blanket statements, but I will correct you on the dimmest panel comment - that is the ZT60, not the VT60, due to its filter. I would also point out that at the S60's price range there are a lot of LEDs that won't handle 24P correctly, it is the bottom of the 1080p line-up for Panasonic, I don't find it shocking that it doesn't do this. As I am sure you know, there are a lot of displays out there that don't do 24p correctly. Someone out there had on a forum that kept up with this information.
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post #30 of 77 Old 11-18-2013, 01:40 PM
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I am having this similar debate right now, was pretty much dead set on buying the S60, but then read that the ST60 (because its a 3D ready TV) has better components inside to help it produce a better picture. Now I am having my doubts on the S60, my budget was at $1000, and obviously the ST60 will throw that out the window.

MY ISSUES:
My 10 year old Toshiba 52" DLP blew its second bulb of its life span, and to be quite frank, its time for a replacement TV. (sick of replacing bulbs let alone if I can find one) (it is my backup display in the basement, Just so everyone knows my main display in the living room is my sweet baby Pioneer Kuro 5020 love this thing) So I am not trying to break the bank here, and eclipse my Pioneer Kuro Plasma, It will always be my best display. BUT I have decided on buying another plasma, and have easily shifted my mind to Panasonic, for good reason, damn shame that they are stopping production tho.

At first I was dead set on the "cheaper" but still great display in the Panasonic TCP50S60, has everything I need, not big on 3D, or the smart feature, since I have a PS3 already and that takes care of my smartTV needs. However I recently checked out the Panasonic TCP50ST60 seems to have a better display picture due to the fact of the 3D engine, plus the anti glare feature helps..... having 3D capabilities is a bonus plus the built in Smart features. The sticky point is I am from Canada and our prices for these displays is as follows,

trying to stick in the $1000+/- budget
50 inch S60 - $799 @BB
55 inch S60 - $999 @BB (basically $200 more for bigger screen)
50 inch ST60 - $1299 @BB ($500 more for the ST60?)

is the ST60 worth $500 more? especially when I am not to keen on the 3D function (not a deal breaker) and the SmartTV isn't really a necessity.

Also have heard about this "input lag" issue on the ST60, is that a deal breaker? not a hardcore gamer at least I won't be with this set.

If anyone has tips on cheaper prices in Canada for these models, please do advise. I know everyone says that the ST60 @ $1299 is a steal, for what you get, (true) I just won't to make sure I am getting the best $deal$
Thanks.

Display#1: Pioneer Kuro Plasma PDP-5020FD (Living Room)
Display#2: Panasonic Plasma TC-P55ST60 (Rec-Room)
Display#3: Samsung LED SmartTV - UN32EH5300 (Bedroom)
Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1326-k -- Speakers: Bose Acoustimass 6 Series III
BD Player: Sony BDP-S350 -- PS3 & PS4
HTPC: Home Theatre PC
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