Panasonic TC-65PS64 and TC-50PS64 ~OWNER'S POLL~ - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Are you glad overall that you bought the PanasonicTC-xxPS64?
Yes, totally glad. 22 88.00%
No, I regret it. 0 0%
I'm ambivalent. Serious doubts. 3 12.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 772 Old 05-25-2013, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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It appears too common for some to bash other TV models in these threads in order to justify their purchase of something else.

Let's not do that here for all the obvious reasons. Grownups only. wink.gif

Instead, this is a thread for S64 owner's or interested prospective S64 buyers input or questions.

People can decide on their own whether there seems to be a majority for or against this model and decide what has the appearance of credibility.

If you're an owner and don't like the TV or simply dislike some minor things, we especially want your input here. Even if it's only a minor thing, negative aspects are needed so buyers have true knowledge of what to expect.

A primary goal of this thread is to see if most S64 owners are glad they bought this panel - and if they remain so over time. The more details, the better and that's pro or con!

The poll was allowed to expire because it appeared from a total lack of detailed input at the time that at least 2 of the 3 voting "ambivalent" were not S64 owners. (given that, the percentage liking this TV is pretty scary good). Read on and see if you agree. One thing not in question: No one voted that they regretted purchasing an S64. The poll was up for 2 months if memory serves, so that is an amazing result, no?

S64 owners are welcomed to PLEASE DO review your S64s here (later edit: quite a few S64 owners HAVE kindly posted their reviews here. Thanks to all for doing that!) and to provide later observations to find buyer's remorse, if any, over time. Or, if you've done a review of your S64 elsewhere in AVS, I would appreciate it if you would place a link in this thread.

I placed some links to previous S64 and S60 owner reviews on page 3 of this thread, post 61.

All S64 and S60 owners are invited to participate in answering questions if you can make the time to do so.

Post 1141 in the below linked page is my review/comparison of the 2 models I've owned (ST60 and S64). This review is occasionally controversial but much more often, people have said they agree:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461177/official-panasonic-s60-series-discussion-thread/1140

In a nutshell, I owned a TC-P55ST60 for 3 weeks before it developed an intermittent electronic fault. I really liked that panel a lot and still highly recommend ST60's to those wanting 3D who are less concerned about gaming input lag. However, because I'm not into 3D, there are several reasons why I decided to try the TC-65PS64. I admit that bang for the buck for screen real estate was a big part of it.

I continue to be surprised that I like my TC-65PS64 better.

06/21/13 edit: By pm request today from fairchild99, I'm placing a link here to his kindly shared settings derived from the calibrations he has done on his 50S60. Post 1310

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461177/official-panasonic-s60-series-discussion-thread/1290#post_23290695

Later edit 08/09/2013: From what I've read, probably more people like fairchild99's shared settings than dislike them. However, beginning in maybe late August to early September, it appears Increasing numbers of new buyers of S60s and S64s are seeing red push with fairchild99's settings. edit: That should have been late July to early August. tongue.gif Thanks to fairchild99 for bringing this to my attention.

So what has changed and why am I NOT seeing red push? Darned if I know though I mildly suspect some possible change in Panny production practices or parts sourcing. Or:

fairchild99 has generously shared continuing touchup changes in his published settings as his panel has aged. I think his panel has about 1300 hours on it now - so it should act significantly different than a new panel. My panel has maybe 650 hours on it now. So could phosphor aging be part of it? I suspect this may be part of it but I have no proof to present.
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post #2 of 772 Old 05-25-2013, 08:15 PM
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50" s64's are around, some here have them?

(staying tuned)
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post #3 of 772 Old 05-25-2013, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

50" s64's are around, some here have them?

(staying tuned)

Not that I've heard yet.
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post #4 of 772 Old 05-26-2013, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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S64 owners, thank you for voting.
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post #5 of 772 Old 05-26-2013, 09:39 AM
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I voted, but I guess I can throw in some thoughts here. I would like to preface this by saying I am not a picture snob, and I realize this. This is by no means a scientific dig into the TV, just a few observations I have made over a couple of weeks.

Items:
65S64
Pioneer VSX1021 being used for audio and HDMI
Custom HTPC
Xbox 360
PS3(40GB) (r.i.p. as of a week ago frown.gif ) bought a 24$ refurb panasonic bluray as a replacement till PS4 or Xbox one
Harmony One
Polk monitor 60's and CS2, with custom sub and wireless rear speakers.


I would say I use 60/40 split between Netflix and Bluray Movies on XBMC. Not much cable watching right now except Game of Thrones.

Still need to get a wire cover for the two TV wires.

It is kind of hard to get a size reference, but it somehow makes the CS2 look like a normal sized center, and it is pretty large. The entertainment stand is 60" wide and the tower speakers are like 38" tall.

Pro:Pretty much everything.
- $1399 is a great price for a 65" plasma with excellent picture quality. I just graduated college a few weeks ago, so this was about the most I wanted to spend.
- The black levels are excellent to me, but the only comparison I have is my old LG plasma and a Samsung plasma in my bedroom. The fade to black screens, 21:9 movie bars, etc all look really nice and dark.
- Colors and skin tones are great with a limited amount of tweaking on my panel, but like I said, someone with a better eye would probably find many things wrong.
- The AR filter works excellent. For me, I see the benefit as keeping the blacks and such from washing out with any light on, as my other plasmas do. If I have a few lights on or windows open, the Tv still looks excellent, and not hazy with no contrast. It also helps with reflections, but I do not really have any issues with them.
- Apps work pretty well, I have started using the built in Netflix to watch shows instead of starting my PC or xbox up. It passes 5.1 back to my receiver over ARC, and even pulls down 1080, or says it does in the info popup. Few issues stated below.
- Watching 24p I just have everything set for 3:2 60Hz. It works great for me, but I guess if you really wanted that 24p "feel" the S60 would not be the best choice.
- Except for full white screen, ABL is not an issue. Panasonic has done a nice job tweaking it because I have yet to see it in actual content.


Cons:
Nothing major
- Mine does have a slight buzz when doing full white screen like on my computer or xbox starting up. This doesn't bother me and it is no worse than any other plasmas I have seen.
- This doesn't really affect me, but the built in speakers are terrible, so I feel a soundbar or something would be required.
- Apps can be sluggish. I experience pauses and freezing when starting a HD netflix show, not really buffering, but like the system is overloaded. It also switches my receiver in and out of Dolby mode a few times while its doing this. Once it starts, it works great though.
- I guess I am one of the people who can see flicker, because 48HZ was terrible for me.
- Brightness is not the best. I will admit I do like a little bit of extra punch in my picture, and am able to get it, but I could see some people having issues with max brightness.

It was between the 65" S64 and 60" ST60, and for my use, I think I made the right choice. I honestly can't see how the 65" ST60 is worth a $1000 premium over the S64, but to each his own.
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post #6 of 772 Old 05-26-2013, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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bamaboy1234,

Nice setup!

Thanks for detailed input.

I've had 2 plasmas now and could not hear buzz in either. From what I've read, this seems unlikely, so I think maybe my hearing is deficient in that frequency.
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post #7 of 772 Old 05-26-2013, 11:24 PM
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TC-65PS64 is the best 65" value around IMO. 110% satisfied. biggrin.gif
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post #8 of 772 Old 05-27-2013, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Someone punched in with "serious doubts; ambivalent". If you're an actual S64 owner, please post details. No criticism will be given; opinions vary.

Acknowledged: No one TV model is for everyone.
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post #9 of 772 Old 05-27-2013, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Someone punched in with "serious doubts; ambivalent". Please post details. No criticism will be given; opinions vary.

Probably wasn't an actual owner. With this new AVS forum software can polls still be made "public" so that everyone who votes is identified for all to see? It was a crackup to see non-owners vote about some negative aspect of a TV only to be publicly "outed" as a troll tongue.gif
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Randy
TC-P55ST60, TC-P50GT50, TC-P46G10, TH-42PZ700U, TH-42PX50U, HP LC2600N, TiVo Series3, TWC Cisco 8742HDC DVR, Onkyo TX-SR333, URC R40 Remote.
Pic of My A/V setup - http://cdn.avsforum.com/f/f1/900x900..._Img_4867.jpeg
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post #10 of 772 Old 05-27-2013, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Probably wasn't an actual owner. With this new AVS forum software can polls still be made "public" so that everyone who votes is identified for all to see? It was a crackup to see non-owners vote about some negative aspect of a TV only to be publicly "outed" as a troll tongue.gif

Probably best to take the high road and ignore those 2 votes. If someone really wants to post ambivalent or negative, they will post comments so we know it is a real vote.

To thread readers:

Hoping we all acknowledge that no one TV is perfect for everyone or there would only be one model in production.

So long as comments are from actual S64 owners, the negative should be in here, too. No TV in existence is perfect.
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post #11 of 772 Old 05-27-2013, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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post #12 of 772 Old 05-27-2013, 10:06 PM
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I'm liking mine like a fat kid likes cake.,tongue.gif
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post #13 of 772 Old 05-27-2013, 10:25 PM
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Very encouraging! Hoping to get one on sale later this year. I'll have to keep my eyes on CostCo around any major holidays and events.
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post #14 of 772 Old 05-28-2013, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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post #15 of 772 Old 05-28-2013, 04:16 PM
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I got my S64! I must admit I had second thoughts right before it was delivered, until I saw it side be side with a ST60 in HHgreg and truthfully I could see no difference in the PQ. I waited a week to give an honest review, so the honeymoon period would be over. I am totally impressed with the black levels and the colors, and of course the swift input when gaming. The scaled down "smart" menu is great! All I use is Netflix, Amazon Instant, and Youtube anyway. Netflix and Amazon look the best I have ever seen. I put in a Blu Ray and was totally blown away!!! With the lights dimmed, I cannot tell where the black bars end and the bezel begins. $1600 for the 65 incher with a five year warranty cannot be beat!
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post #16 of 772 Old 05-28-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drboyd View Post

I'm liking mine like a fat kid likes cake.,tongue.gif

Thank you for input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

Very encouraging! Hoping to get one on sale later this year. I'll have to keep my eyes on CostCo around any major holidays and events.

I hope it works out for you and you like it a lot.
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post #17 of 772 Old 05-28-2013, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheath10 View Post

I got my S64! I must admit I had second thoughts right before it was delivered, until I saw it side be side with a ST60 in HHgreg and truthfully I could see no difference in the PQ. I waited a week to give an honest review, so the honeymoon period would be over. I am totally impressed with the black levels and the colors, and of course the swift input when gaming. The scaled down "smart" menu is great! All I use is Netflix, Amazon Instant, and Youtube anyway. Netflix and Amazon look the best I have ever seen. I put in a Blu Ray and was totally blown away!!! With the lights dimmed, I cannot tell where the black bars end and the bezel begins. $1600 for the 65 incher with a five year warranty cannot be beat!

Detailed input is appreciated.
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post #18 of 772 Old 05-28-2013, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

TC-65PS64 is the best 65" value around IMO. 110% satisfied. biggrin.gif

Hi, moshock. Thanks for your input and for voting. Also thanks for providing us with very good bright room settings in the S60 thread.
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post #19 of 772 Old 05-28-2013, 04:35 PM
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Here is a pic to see how the filter deals with bright lights from behind, the line down the middle of the screen is the camera flash.
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post #20 of 772 Old 05-29-2013, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Randy,

Thanks for input. I think you're probably right. There is an ST60 owner in the S60 thread who keeps posting about "aggressive ABL" in the S60 variants, so maybe it is him. He is the only one in the S60 thread posting that so far as I've read.

I think maybe he can't admit that when he tried an S60 (NOT an S64), he didn't know to turn off CATS TWICE and/or how to turn off eco mode. It wasn't ABL; it was energy saving stuff he was seeing.

Regardless of who it is, guessing you're right. It's why I asked for specific details. In the S60 thread, I said I'd probably disqualify that vote in a few days if no detailed input is given. Frankly, if a Troll, I'm surprised he or she didn't check the stronger negative position on this. Maybe they think that checking "ambivalent" will make it look more believable without posting details...?

I mean: If there is serious 'negatory' info, prospective buyers need to know details..

Micke

What does this mean about turning off CATS twice? I have an S60 and am in the process of buying an S64. I have never heard of turning it off twice.

Justin
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post #21 of 772 Old 05-29-2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hapazoid View Post

What does this mean about turning off CATS twice? I have an S60 and am in the process of buying an S64. I have never heard of turning it off twice.

Justin

Menu - Setup - Eco navigation - Power save - Standard
Menu - Setup - Eco navigation - CATS - Off
Menu - Picture - CATS - Off

It's basically just a check, since at least on my set, turning it off in one part of the Menu turns it off in the other. Maybe there was some bug with it being turned On in one but not the other. The main thing to do is make sure your Power save is set to Standard.
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Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings
Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings
HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT660 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60
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post #22 of 772 Old 05-29-2013, 09:45 AM
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Anybody see a 50" in Canada yet? I want one for the bedroom. Any idea what they are going for in the States? Maybe I'll grab one in Buffalo like I did my 65"VT50.
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post #23 of 772 Old 05-29-2013, 10:08 AM
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Thanks. I was unaware of the second place for a CATS setting. I looked at my settings and they were fine.
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post #24 of 772 Old 05-29-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Thanks for input. I think you're probably right. There is an ST60 owner in the S60 thread who keeps posting about "aggressive ABL" in the S60 variants, so maybe it is him. He is the only one in the S60 thread posting that so far as I've read.

Are you talking about the guy who said that he bought both TVs (S60 and ST60) and viewed them side-by-side in his home with CATS off? Because I think that seems like a pretty fair and credible evaluation. And it would confirm what I saw in a store that had a 50" S60 on display next to a 50" ST60 with high APL content.
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post #25 of 772 Old 05-29-2013, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheath10 View Post

Here is a pic to see how the filter deals with bright lights from behind, the line down the middle of the screen is the camera flash.

Nice setup! Thanks for contributing input and photo.
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post #27 of 772 Old 05-30-2013, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

I'm not sure that guy ever owned an S60. Regardless, for some inexplicable reason, he seems to be alone in the S60 thread regarding any sort of ABL deficiency condemning the S60 model line. Since he stopped yelling "aggressive ABL" when he was asked if he knew about double CATS turn off and eco mode "saving", appears to me he was seeing CATS or eco power save, not ABL. I asked him to try the CATS double turn off and eco save settings on another S60 versus continuing to be the only guy hollerin' about "aggressive ABL" condemning the whole model line. A reply was not forthcoming. However, his repetitive posts about the S60's being unacceptable due to ABL have stopped. For now.

Other than those who soon became educated about CATS and eco and how to turn them off - and that what they were seeing was NOT ABL: Since he is the only guy I've seen in the S60 thread consistently complaining about excessive ABL on an S60 or S64, I think we should consider that it is possible he had a defective panel. It happens sometimes. My 55ST60 had to be returned for other reasons. Just sayin' defects happen sometimes.

He's not totally alone, because I've made a couple similar comments in that thread, and I'm quite confident that I am right. I went back to look at some TVs at Best Buy tonight, and I again looked at the ST60 and S60. Again it was clear that ABL is worse on the S60. It's not a dramatic "F8500-type" difference, obviously, but it is a clear difference. I don't really know what to say to someone who, as you said in your review, can't even see ABL. All plasmas have ABL. It's a flaw with this display type, just like dithering, color gradation issues, etc. And the effects of ABL are measurable, so it's really not even something worth arguing about. Your plasma has ABL. Period. And if you won't even acknowledge that your plasma has ABL (or that you can see it), then how am I supposed to take you seriously when you claim that ABL is the same on your S64 as it is on ST60s?

Quote:
fairchild99 has given what I believe to be objective observations on S60 variant ABL in the S60 thread. To paraphrase: Most people will almost never see it in content. You may see it at times if using the panel as a PC monitor; more so if you are trying to induce it moving a bright screen around like notepad. To me, that is NOT "aggressive ABL". To me, that sounds much more like "well engineered ABL".

fc99: If my paraphrase is off target, your corrective or added input would be appreciated.

Well frankly, I think that anyone who supports your position will be embraced as making "objective observations," and anyone who doesn't will be totally dismissed. Anyhow, what you're saying (or quoting/paraphrasing) about ABL not being an issue with most content is true of all plasmas. Most content has a very low APL. I really haven't paid much attention to the numbers that have been thrown around for average movie APL, but they are very low. If ABL was so bad that it was commonly seen, then plasma wouldn't be a viable display technology. But the fact that ABL is not commonly seen with "normal/typical content" on the S60/64 does not mean that ABL is the same on the S60/64 as it is on all other plasmas (like, for example, the F8500). It isn't. ABL is rarely an issue when viewing most content, but it is worse on some plasmas than others. Period. And I'm not telling you that you should care. I'm just telling you that it is an indisputable fact.

Quote:
The S60 thread has a few occurrences of other people complaining immediately and loudly about ABL, but then their complaints go away when they figure out how to REALLY turn off CATS (and eco mode). As fc99 and Moonchilde have said, the CATS (off twice) menu glitch has some variables about which is turned off first or I don't know what. Some see that stubbornness, some don't. I first saw it on my ST60. On that panel, it was turned off in eco and eco mode was in standard, not saving. However, until CATS was ALSO turned off in the picture menu, CATS was fully active and a total PITA. "The Horror."

For clarity: If anyone sees something dimming their S60 or S64 or ST60 panel in rude steps very often along with the panel always too dim, that is CATS and/or or eco mode. These can be turned off. These are not ABL.

As you just said, the S60/64 is not the only model with C.A.T.S. So I'm not sure why you keep trying to blame C.A.T.S. MM, I don't have access to these TVs to measure them myself, and I'm guessing that you don't have a meter (which FWIW, you could buy on eBay for like $15). But you are referencing comments by fairchild99 and Moonchilde to make your point, so I will do the same. Fairchild99 said that he measured full-field white at approximately 9.85 fL on his S60 (50", I believe). Moonchiilde was not as specific, but he said that he measured full-field white at ~15 fL on an ST60 (also a 50", I believe). FWIW, I've seen several other full-field white measurements for the ST60, but only one other for the S60. The S60 measurements average to 10-ish fL, and the ST60 measurements average at about 15.5. Neither of those numbers are great when you consider that we all calibrate peak white significantly higher than that, but one is clearly better than the other. What I have not seen are any S60/64 measurements of a high but not-that-high APL patterns. For example, a common 4x4 ANSI pattern. I'm sure that my observations of apparent ABL differences on S60 and ST60 plasmas hanging on the wall at Best Buy are not going to convince you that the the S60 has "more aggressive" ABL than the ST60. But as I said, the full-field white measurements that I've seen are worse on the S60, and I am very confident that something around 50 APL (like ANSI white) would show an even greater difference. The biggest differences that I saw during the BB content loop were not with extremely high (almost 100 APL) content but with high-ish APL content, probably closer to 50. I feel confident that if you, fairchild, or whoever else measures white on a 4x4 ANSI pattern on an S60/64, it will measure closer to the VT60/ZT60 than it will to the ST60. I will happily eat crow if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty confident that I'm not. And even if I'm right, it would just mean that S60 ABL is similar to two extraordinarily expensive plasma TVs that many people consider to be the overall best TVs available right now.

FWIW, I'm sorry to even discuss this topic here. I don't mean to threadcrap or "invade" an owner's (poll) thread. I think the 65" S64 is probably the best TV value there is right now. I have nothing against this TV. At all. If I was in the market for a ~65" TV, I really can't even imagine buying something other than the S64. But you seem really adamant that ABL is the same on the S60/S64 as it is on the ST60, and I am very confident that you are wrong.
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post #28 of 772 Old 05-30-2013, 11:12 AM
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@mechanicalman, the thing with comparing peak light output with a 100% white field pattern is that we don't know what the picture mode, contrast, and panel brightness setting were at. If we really wanted a proper comparison we would compare after testing everything with as similar variables as possible.

I mean if you all want I can pop up Custom at stock settings or Cinema at stock settings (not calibrated) and ramp up the Contrast to 100 and ramp up the panel brightness to High to see the max possible light output with a 100% white field pattern. But this won't show us anything but the maximum that the set can do. And this will most likely have dithering and clipping issues.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings
Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings
HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT660 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60
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post #29 of 772 Old 05-30-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

@mechanicalman, the thing with comparing peak light output with a 100% white field pattern is that we don't know what the picture mode, contrast, and panel brightness setting were at. If we really wanted a proper comparison we would compare after testing everything with as similar variables as possible.

I mean if you all want I can pop up Custom at stock settings or Cinema at stock settings (not calibrated) and ramp up the Contrast to 100 and ramp up the panel brightness to High to see the max possible light output with a 100% white field pattern. But this won't show us anything but the maximum that the set can do. And this will most likely have dithering and clipping issues.

Thanks for input.
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post #30 of 772 Old 05-30-2013, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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@MechanicalMan

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears you are not an S64 owner or S64 prospective buyer as explicitly defined for posting in this thread. So why are you posting here? It appears clear you have quite an axe to grind and I'm not interested.

The language you posted insulting the credibility of thread participants and S64 owners should not have been tolerated by AVS forum. Your opinion has clearly been impeached by many satisfied owners comments posted over time in 6 months and 600 posts.

As should be obvious, there has never been a perfect TV. This one happens to be very good at this price point.
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