Samsung PNxxF4500 Owners Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1202 Old 08-21-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Here are some snapshots of panning motion on the F4500-- the first two shots are from a 30fps game (RE4), the last 3 shots are from a 60fps game (SC2).

Note that there is no ghosting effect on the 30fps game or the 60fps game with high ISO shutter speed. The last picture was taken with a low shutter speed on the 60fps game-- you can see that multiple frames were captured with the camera at a low shutter speed. I estimate the "low" shutter speed to be about 1/10th of a second, because I can count about 6 individual frames in the exposure. The high speed Im not sure about, but it must be at least 1/60th of a second.

So, in essence, there is no "double image" created by the set on 30 fps or 60fps motion. The double images you see in pictures are due to long or over exposure by the camera or your own brain, the set is not creating them. These shots were taken from about 3.5' from the screen-- note the lack of "SDE" in them as well. Even zoomed in on the original 3MP pictures there is no visible "SDE".

RE41
RE42

SC21
SC22
SC23 (slow shutter speed)
Did you break the TV whit slides or just normal viewing?

and , can u share the settings that u are using for video games , broadcast TV and movies?
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post #812 of 1202 Old 08-21-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
At 10ft there is no SDE, just a beautiful picture. Most likely you are only seeing it in the showroom because theres a 1080p set right next to it. In the home, at 10' theres no SDE, video looks identical to the 51F5300.

As far as the brightness in the showroom, Ive probably mentioned that 5 times already. You just have to believe it.
Replaced the Panasonic TH42-PZ77U plasma with the Samsung PN51F4500 last night. Wall mount worked great, just had to get shorter machine screws.
The Samsung has a pretty good picture*; no adjustments made other than turning off the eco sensor. The blacks are better than the Panny; the Panny's were a bit blotchy sometimes.
No SDE present at approx 10' viewing distance, and no discernible buzz at 7300ft. With the eco sensor off (much brighter picture) you have to get pretty close to see any SDE.
Now I just need to get the Denon AVR3313ci sent off for repair. I'm guessing a power surge or lightning strike took out the Denon's PS and spiked the HDMI, which killed the inputs on the Panny. At least I had a 5yr extended warranty on the Denon! I hope it doesn't take too long to get it back, the poor sound quality from the TV speakers is enough to make my ears bleed.

* Relatively speaking. Since the Denon is down, I'm running a composite cable from the DTV box to the TV. I did check the HDMI inputs using my Uebo M400 media player and the PQ is very good.
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post #813 of 1202 Old 08-21-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jtmarten View Post
The Samsung has a pretty good picture*; no adjustments made other than turning off the eco sensor. The blacks are better than the Panny; the Panny's were a bit blotchy sometimes.
No SDE present at approx 10' viewing distance, and no discernible buzz at 7300ft. With the eco sensor off (much brighter picture) you have to get pretty close to see any SDE.

* Relatively speaking. Since the Denon is down, I'm running a composite cable from the DTV box to the TV. I did check the HDMI inputs using my Uebo M400 media player and the PQ is very good.
Connect an antenna and check out some HD OTA channels. If you think the composite looks even halfway decent, OTA HD will blow you away!

Last edited by Josh128; 08-21-2014 at 02:20 PM.
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post #814 of 1202 Old 08-21-2014, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Trelkovsky View Post
Did you break the TV whit slides or just normal viewing?

and , can u share the settings that u are using for video games , broadcast TV and movies?
I stayed under cell light of 16 for the first 200 or so hours, let the set run a bunch of OTA HD, but also did quite a bit of gaming on it as well. Its seems to be very resiliant /IR resistant compared to the TC-P50X60 Panasonic I recently sold (to buy another PN51F4500).

I have yet to really rough calibrate the set (will do by Disney WOW and AVS HD 709 DVDs soon) but I am currently running approx:

For Games
Game Mode On for Retro 16 bit Titles, Off for N64/PS1 and up.
Standard-ECO off, Standard color temp, Black Opt. On
Cell Light 16 (go to 20 if ABL is noticable)
Contrast 95
Brightness 52
Sharpness 75
Color 50 - 55 (personal preference)
Tint 50/50

For OTA HD
Standard-ECO off, Standard color temp, Black Opt. On
Cell Light 18
Contrast 95
Brightness 50
Sharpness 50
Color 50 (personal preference)
Tint 50/50

*Note-- Based on my AVS HD 709 calibration disc experience on my 5300, both whites and blacks may be crushing /clipping at these levels. Colors may be clipping a bit too, but I still find these settings look incredible for my component out game systems. I dont have any gear on my 4500s that can output component signal that can run the 709 disc, so I ordered the Disney WOW DVD for them.

A lot of people (including me) have been turning their brightness to the low 40's in order to eliminate dithering on pure blacks, which seems pleasing, but when doing this (at least on the PN51F5300) it crushes the hell out of blacks. I know its not a "true" calibration without using metering equipment and such, but a simple "by eye" brightness/contrast/color calibration can completely eliminate black, white, and color crushing/clipping and doing that in my opinion is the most picture affecting / important part of a calibration anyway. The AVS HD 709 is completely free and highly recommended. The Disney WOW DVD can be had for about $13 shipped and the Blu Ray version for about $20 (also highly recommended).

Note about game mode-- while it make absolutely no difference in input lag-- I have recently discovered that turning it OFF yields smoother (less harsh) more pleasing graphics in PS2/Gamecube generation polygonal games, while turning it ON yields better (no processing blur and distortion) graphics for 2D sidescroller (8 and 16 bit generation) games.
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post #815 of 1202 Old 08-21-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lion Rider View Post
Well, you must be lucky, I would take the F5500. The only downside is that it does not have CMS or 10p white balance for proper calibration. But from what's owners say the PQ is awesome out of the box. I stand corrected but I think they use the same panel with F4500(reflective in bright light, though to me that's not a problem).
For that price reason take the F5500
Crap. Turned out it was a typo. The 51F5500 is actually $180 more than the 51F4500. Do you think it's worth paying $180 for the 1080p resolution, smart functions, 3D and good remote? Don't think I'll be using much 3D and smart functions though.. but the extra resolution is tempting
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post #816 of 1202 Old 08-21-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jtmarten View Post
Pulled the trigger last night on the PN51F4500. Just a tad over $450 with a 3yr service contract ($38) and tax.
Will set it up tonight. I probably won't make any real display adjustments until it's had a couple hundred hours of burn in time, after that I'll peruse this entire thread for setup options.
The only spoiler will be if it has any buzz due to my elevation (7300ft).
FYI, I think Samsung suggests a max altitude of 6500 feet on its plasma TVs, while the Panasonics go up to 9000-9500 7200 or 8500 feet, depending on the model. The F4500 doesn't seem to run quite as hot as the F5300 though, so you might be ok with the former at ~7000 feet. I'd check for obvious odors (burning smells) coming from the TV as well as buzzing and heat.

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post #817 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post
FYI, I think Samsung suggests a max altitude of 6500 feet on its plasma TVs, while the Panasonics go up to 9000-9500 feet. The F4500 doesn't seem to run quite as hot as the F5300 though, so you might be ok with the former at ~7000 feet. I'd check for obvious odors (burning smells) coming from the TV as well as buzzing and heat.
Not sure about the elevation limitations, but I can confirm the 4500 runs much cooler than the 5300.
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post #818 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 07:59 AM
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Crap. Turned out it was a typo. The 51F5500 is actually $180 more than the 51F4500. Do you think it's worth paying $180 for the 1080p resolution, smart functions, 3D and good remote? Don't think I'll be using much 3D and smart functions though.. but the extra resolution is tempting
The best way to see if the resolution difference is worth $180 is to watch both Tvs side by side.(propably in a store). Depending on the distance you sit from the tv then you can decide if resolution matters.
From what Josh is experiencing the F4500 turns out to be the best for your buck.
From my experience in a store there is no PQ difference between the two and the F4500 might be better after calibration.
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post #819 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lion Rider View Post
The best way to see if the resolution difference is worth $180 is to watch both Tvs side by side.(propably in a store). Depending on the distance you sit from the tv then you can decide if resolution matters.
From what Josh is experiencing the F4500 turns out to be the best for your buck.
From my experience in a store there is no PQ difference between the two and the F4500 might be better after calibration.
In my opinion, you can't tell the difference between 720p or 1080p from an 8 foot viewing distance with a 43" or 51". The resolution difference is only worth it if you are sitting closer to the plasma. Save your money and get the 4500.
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post #820 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Lion Rider View Post
The best way to see if the resolution difference is worth $180 is to watch both Tvs side by side.(propably in a store). Depending on the distance you sit from the tv then you can decide if resolution matters.
From what Josh is experiencing the F4500 turns out to be the best for your buck.
From my experience in a store there is no PQ difference between the two and the F4500 might be better after calibration.
In my opinion, you can't tell the difference between 720p or 1080p from an 8 foot viewing distance with a 43" or 51". The resolution difference is only worth it if you are sitting closer to the plasma. Save your money and get the 4500.
I just checked again. 3 of the stores (with reasonable price) ran out of the 51F4500. They said it's discontinued and being replaced by 51H4500. Anyone knows where it's similar to the F4500?

http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/t...PE51H4500AWXXU

I guess I'll have to compare them side by side. $180 is still very tempting for better resolution, better remote, smart functions and 3D..

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post #821 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 01:53 PM
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I just checked again. 3 of the stores (with reasonable price) ran out of the 51F4500. They said it's discontinued and being replaced by 51H4500. Anyone knows where it's similar to the F4500?

http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/t...PE51H4500AWXXU

I guess I'll have to compare them side by side. $180 is still very tempting for better resolution, better remote, smart functions and 3D..
H4500 is the same as F4500 featurewise, just new for 2014.
On the resolution difference it's up to you to decide if the $180 is worth it. Where I am from, without question the F4500 is the best value for money. Also here we have the H version.
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post #822 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by closencounters View Post
I just checked again. 3 of the stores (with reasonable price) ran out of the 51F4500. They said it's discontinued and being replaced by 51H4500. Anyone knows where it's similar to the F4500?

http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/t...PE51H4500AWXXU

I guess I'll have to compare them side by side. $180 is still very tempting for better resolution, better remote, smart functions and 3D..
$180 more is not bad for what is essentially a "3D Smart" F5300... but, if you are not worried about Smart function and 3D, you would be better served to buy a vanilla 5300 (or 4500) and a decent Smart Blu -Ray player.

If you put them side by side, at least in the showroom, you'll likely choose the 5500. The bright lights seem to magnify the resolution deficit of the 4500. At home, you'll never know the difference unless you are less than 5 feet from the sets.

They are both great sets. Good luck!
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post #823 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Connect an antenna and check out some HD OTA channels. If you think the composite looks even halfway decent, OTA HD will blow you away!

I thought the tuner in the 4500 is not HD? I think you have to use an HD cable/set top box to get the "best" picture.
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post #824 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 06:09 PM
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I thought the tuner in the 4500 is not HD? I think you have to use an HD cable/set top box to get the "best" picture.
Absolutely not! The NTSC version of the set most certainly utilizes an HD ATSC tuner and will tell you the resolution of the channel you are tuned to, be it 1080i, 720p, 480p,or 480i, when you press the INFO button. The picture quality of 1080i and 720p channels are top notch. I installed a 30' Rohn 25G tower with an omnidirectional antenna feeding a 4 port distribution amplifier which in turn feeds the 5 sets I have in my house (splitting one of the amps outputs). Crystal clear, unwavering HD signal on about 25 channels. I live in a rural area in central Louisiana, Im getting about a 45 mile reception radius without dropping signal whatsoever. Only one of my sets is fed by a DTV Pal HD OTA DVR via HDMI, but all the other sets (including my second F4500) is fed directly via RG-6 and that F4500 is most definitely displaying HD channels via its ATSC tuner.

Where did you hear that it wasnt HD?

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post #825 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 06:30 PM
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I picked up the 43" version at Best Buy for $299.99. There was a stuck red pixel just to the right of center out of the box. I returned it for a refund. I'm not trying another one.
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post #826 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 06:50 PM
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Not sure about the elevation limitations, but I can confirm the 4500 runs much cooler than the 5300.
The altitude limits aren't mentioned in the online PDF manual, but should be listed in the care/maintenance/safety paperwork included with the TV.

These links say 6500-6900 feet though for the Sammies. And the CNET article says 9500 feet for the LGs, and 7200 or 8500 feet for the Pannies, depending on the model. The Panasonic data is from 2012 though...

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/faq/FAQ00022579/22747
http://www.cnet.com/news/plasma-tv-a...h-can-they-go/

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post #827 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 06:54 PM
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I picked up the 43" version at Best Buy for $299.99. There was a stuck red pixel just to the right of center out of the box. I returned it for a refund. I'm not trying another one.
Sorry to hear it. When properly adjusted, the 43F4500 produces about the best lookin 768p picture that I've seen.
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post #828 of 1202 Old 08-22-2014, 07:47 PM
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$180 more is not bad for what is essentially a "3D Smart" F5300... but, if you are not worried about Smart function and 3D, you would be better served to buy a vanilla 5300 (or 4500) and a decent Smart Blu -Ray player.

If you put them side by side, at least in the showroom, you'll likely choose the 5500. The bright lights seem to magnify the resolution deficit of the 4500. At home, you'll never know the difference unless you are less than 5 feet from the sets.

They are both great sets. Good luck!
Nah, I wish they have the 5300 here. That would be perfect for me...

There's the F51H5000 as well. I tried to look for reviews but seems that it's not available in the states? Might be using the same panel as 64H5000? The price difference between H5000 and F4500 is only $30, but from what I read the H5000 doesn't really allow you to tweak the settings as much as the 4500?
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post #829 of 1202 Old 08-23-2014, 04:08 AM
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I picked up the 43" version at Best Buy for $299.99. There was a stuck red pixel just to the right of center out of the box. I returned it for a refund. I'm not trying another one.
Wow, why not? You are missing out, for sure. You wont even come close to matching the quality of this set with an LCD under $399. The window is quickly closing.

From my experience (own/have owned 4 plasmas) and from what I have read elsewhere, stuck pixels are pretty rare on plasma sets.

Last edited by Josh128; 08-24-2014 at 06:33 PM.
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post #830 of 1202 Old 08-23-2014, 07:01 AM
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So i calibrated a brand new ps43f4500 before giving it as a present to my brother for his birthday. I had all the picture menu settings available at my home. When i hook it up on his ubuntu linux htpc by hdmi i only have standard and entertainment picture modes (movie and other options are gone) with a lot of picture settings options grayed out. i tried using both ports. Any ideas as to why i cant get full picture menu? nothing in manual on it. Signal input is defaulting to 1024x768 but i dont recall that mattering before
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post #831 of 1202 Old 08-23-2014, 11:44 AM
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Its either that the input has been named as PC, or the HTPC HDMI is reading information from the TV and thinks 1024x768 is the only resolution, check the graphics card settings for an overide.
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post #832 of 1202 Old 08-23-2014, 01:06 PM
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So i calibrated a brand new ps43f4500 before giving it as a present to my brother for his birthday. I had all the picture menu settings available at my home. When i hook it up on his ubuntu linux htpc by hdmi i only have standard and entertainment picture modes (movie and other options are gone) with a lot of picture settings options grayed out. i tried using both ports. Any ideas as to why i cant get full picture menu? nothing in manual on it. Signal input is defaulting to 1024x768 but i dont recall that mattering before
By coincidence I tried to cal my set with the Disney WOW DVD over Xbox360 HDMI today and I have the same issue-- either ENTERTAIN or STANDARD-- I get the same options with my WinXP PC on the other HDMI port. Neither option allows you to change color, tint, or even activate game mode--I can, however, change resolutions. This is happening on the BFX model 51F4500. Maybe it has something to do with full RGB over HDMI or something? When I switch to my component input or antenna input, I have full control.
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post #833 of 1202 Old 08-23-2014, 01:44 PM
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Signal input is defaulting to 1024x768 but i dont recall that mattering before
Drawing from my experience with the f5300 series, sending any PC resolutions to the television, e.g. 1024x768, forces the display into PC mode in which picture adjustments are limited.
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post #834 of 1202 Old 08-23-2014, 09:52 PM
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Ok I'm adjusting the resolution to be 1280x720 at 60fps. It is a lightweight ubuntu linux box so it is a bit complicated to force a resolution but I think I've got it set now. Otherwise the feed to the tv will default to 1024x768. I'll give it a shot tomorrow when I take his computer back over
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post #835 of 1202 Old 08-24-2014, 11:04 AM
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Wow, they have the H4500 in Europe? One of few occasions I envy the Europeans. Amazing. Light output equal to the F4500 but with the black level of the H5000/Panasonic S60. It looks to be the best SD/720p hybrid plasma for gaming. Now I'm eyeing for this model instead of the Kuro 5070 for SD/720p game use.

Oh and btw, the 51/60 inches H5000 are ALL pentile like the 64 inches model, confirmed by actually buyers who bought them from China. They used to have the F8500, but now prefer the H5000 for superior black level.
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post #836 of 1202 Old 08-24-2014, 02:51 PM
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Wow, they have the H4500 in Europe? One of few occasions I envy the Europeans. Amazing. Light output equal to the F4500 but with the black level of the H5000/Panasonic S60. It looks to be the best SD/720p hybrid plasma for gaming. Now I'm eyeing for this model instead of the Kuro 5070 for SD/720p game use.
Where are you getting this from? From everything I see this is identical to the F4500 except for a DVB-T/C tuner (for European terrestrial broadcasts).

I find it very hard to believe that its panel is any different from the F4500 panel, being they ceasing production in a couple months.
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post #837 of 1202 Old 08-24-2014, 05:46 PM
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Where are you getting this from? From everything I see this is identical to the F4500 except for a DVB-T/C tuner (for European terrestrial broadcasts).

I find it very hard to believe that its panel is any different from the F4500 panel, being they ceasing production in a couple months.
Not as odd as Samsung making the H5000 in 51 inches and 60 inches only to be sold exclusively in China and some other Asian markets. These models have been confirmed by buyers to be all pentile just like the 64 inch one sold in the States, and having equal black level as well. (Two of the purchasers used to have the F8500.) I can understand 60 inches being pentile as the F5300/F5500 also used pentile in the same size, but the pentile 51 inches one is quite odd on Samsung's part being the only 51 inch product to be using pentile, so it's not far-fetched to be assuming the H4500 is receiving the same treatment. The H4500 was released in March 20 according to Amazon, which is around the same date the H5000 was released in the States.

So, yes, it could be a bunk and just a regurgitated F4500, but we've all said the same thing with the H5000 being a regurgitated F5300/F5500 only to be DEAD wrong. The European F4900 already gives the F8500 a serious competition in black level, who's to say the H4500 won't raise the bar? It's quite a mystery for me and I would hope for a black level measurement some day.
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post #838 of 1202 Old 08-24-2014, 06:24 PM
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Not as odd as Samsung making the H5000 in 51 inches and 60 inches only to be sold exclusively in China and some other Asian markets. These models have been confirmed by buyers to be all pentile just like the 64 inch one sold in the States, and having equal black level as well. (Two of the purchasers used to have the F8500.) I can understand 60 inches being pentile as the F5300/F5500 also used pentile in the same size, but the pentile 51 inches one is quite odd on Samsung's part being the only 51 inch product to be using pentile, so it's not far-fetched to be assuming the H4500 is receiving the same treatment. The H4500 was released in March 20 according to Amazon, which is around the same date the H5000 was released in the States.

So, yes, it could be a bunk and just a regurgitated F4500, but we've all said the same thing with the H5000 being a regurgitated F5300/F5500 only to be DEAD wrong. The European F4900 already gives the F8500 a serious competition in black level, who's to say the H4500 won't raise the bar? It's quite a mystery for me and I would hope for a black level measurement some day.
Possibly-- I'd be very surprised to see a pentile version of the 720p panel though. I dont know if pentile would really work at that resolution and size, you'd probably have some real SDE going on if that were the case. Maybe its not pentile and just a new panel, or, most likely, a regurgitated F4500. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

As for the H5000-- I agree at first glance its a bit strange to see them go to a pentile panel for the 51"-- but Im pretty sure I know why they did. If these things are being made for the Chinese market, Im pretty sure power consumption is a big issue, especially if they plan to sell a lot of these things. The whole reason the 60F5300 is pentile is to conserve power-- less plasma cells = less power. This holds true at any screen size or resolution, so there you go. The 51F5300 actually gets quite a bit warmer than the F4500, it will noticeably warm a small room. The 5300s max power draw is about ~75W or so more than the 4500. I could see that making them more attractive in highly populated areas where power is already at a premium.

The 4500, even the 51", is pretty power efficient for a plasma--with it already being a fairly low resolution, I'd be surprised if they felt it necessary to reduce it further by going pentile. Who knows though, Samsung is now the largest electronics manufacturer on the planet, this may well be some kind of deal they made with the Chinese government/regime and will also market them in other Asian countries.
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post #839 of 1202 Old 08-24-2014, 06:37 PM
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Ok I'm adjusting the resolution to be 1280x720 at 60fps. It is a lightweight ubuntu linux box so it is a bit complicated to force a resolution but I think I've got it set now. Otherwise the feed to the tv will default to 1024x768. I'll give it a shot tomorrow when I take his computer back over
Any luck with this? Im going to try playing with output resolutions on the X360, but Im pretty sure Im already using 1280x720. I basically cant even do the Disney WOW cal with the TV stuck in ENTERTAIN or crippled STANDARD mode with no color adjustments available. Even the brightness and contrast controls seem to do some weird things in this mode....
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post #840 of 1202 Old 08-24-2014, 08:04 PM
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Any luck with this? Im going to try playing with output resolutions on the X360, but Im pretty sure Im already using 1280x720. I basically cant even do the Disney WOW cal with the TV stuck in ENTERTAIN or crippled STANDARD mode with no color adjustments available. Even the brightness and contrast controls seem to do some weird things in this mode....
Yes switching resolution to 1280x720 60fps brought back movie mode as a selectable option. Im guessing only 720x480, 1280x720 and 1920x1080 are going to do it. Any other res is viewed as pc
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