Samsung PNxxF4500 Owners Thread - Page 49 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion Rider View Post
Hi Andy, seems you have been accustomed to uncalibrated images.
Those settings by 22point8 are achieved by using a meter and calibrated to standards.
There is a difference between preference and accuracy.
Tvs are not calibrated to look like real life but to get as close as to what the content creator was looking at.
I highly doubt Tales of Xillia's developers were looking at the game with a green tint (caused by me using "warm 2" as suggested) and leaves that look reddish and off color (caused by using the color balance he said to use). See this?



It's an official screenshot, one I . My tv shows this area far more accurately to this screenshot than using those settings. So don't tell me that is more accurate when my settings get closer to that than the settings I was told to use. I took some good out of those settings and it definitely greatly improved my image, but things like the color space which made those leaves yellowing or reddish do or a temp setting that makes everything look slightly green hued does not tell me "accurate". Whatever system used to figure out the best settings isn't perfect, seeing as it managed to mess up the area above in a way that does not look like how the game was intended to look. This is partly how I set my tv, I compare to official screenshots. And the screenshots and my own experiences with the game tell me something is wrong with at least those color settings, if not more than just the color.

And I'm not just using that one game, I'm using a few. But that's a game that I have a ton of play time in, so it's a game that I have a good feel for visuals-wise.

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post #1442 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 10:20 AM
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Ok, I've now added a 'B' column for the white balance. A is for the F4500A/F4900, B is for F4500B/H4500/H4900.
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post #1443 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 10:43 AM
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My sticker on the back says PNF4500BF, does that count as a B model?
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post #1444 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22point8 View Post
Ok, I've now added a 'B' column for the white balance. A is for the F4500A/F4900, B is for F4500B/H4500/H4900.
What exactly does cinema smooth actually do? If I watch a bluray my f4500 says 24p without having cinema smooth enabled. Thanks.
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post #1445 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy6915 View Post
My sticker on the back says PNF4500BF, does that count as a B model?
4500A is an A model, 4500B is a B model.
You have a B model.
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post #1446 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 12:55 PM
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What exactly does cinema smooth actually do? If I watch a bluray my f4500 says 24p without having cinema smooth enabled. Thanks.
I have my Oppo set to output at 1080p24, but with the Cinema Smooth turned on, it make the motion look "fake or too smooth" at 96Hz similar to 48pfs movies. So I keep that setting turned off and it looks more normal and natural to me. I believe with it off the TV will use 3:2 pulldown? I'm sure 22point will know.
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post #1447 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 01:53 PM
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4500A is an A model, 4500B is a B model.
You have a B model.
So what you're saying is the white balance is going back to almost completely neutral for my tv and it was better off at 0 for white balance than its current set? Well, that's annoying. What causes such a discrepancy between A and B types to require that big of a difference?
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post #1448 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 08:39 PM
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So now I can see why people thought it was a bit too bright, it really was! The plasma cells are larger than normal because they the panel is only 1024x768, and the reason the F8500 was able to put out so much light was its bigger cells.

If you want to reduce light output to 120cdm2 reduce contrast to 82, reducing cell light to 14 or 15 achieves the same but messed up the greyscale.

Anyway, here are the component settings, I was able to get the saturation pretty good now that HCFR lets you measure individually.
Thanks for all the info you've been posting. Two quick questions...

Does the grayscale get messed-up if you keep Cell Light at 20 & Contrast at 95, and use a higher Eco Solution/Energy Saving setting to reduce the display's brightness instead?

And why did you raise Color above the correct decoding values of 44 for Standard/Game mode, and 50 for Movie mode on the HDMI settings?

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post #1449 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnymacIII View Post
What exactly does cinema smooth actually do? If I watch a bluray my f4500 says 24p without having cinema smooth enabled. Thanks.
I believe Cinema Smooth displays each film frame 4 times (4*24fps=96Hz), which removes the 3:2 judder you'd normally get in the 60Hz display mode. If you're coming from a CRT though, then 60Hz may look more "natural" to your eyes.

If your player is set to 24Hz, and you do not have Cinema Smooth enabled on the TV, then it will probably just display the 24fps film content at 60Hz using a 3:2 cadence, as FAUguy suggested above.

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post #1450 of 1547 Old 03-09-2015, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post
I believe Cinema Smooth displays each film frame 4 times (4*24fps=96Hz), which removes the 3:2 judder you'd normally get in the 60Hz display mode. If you're coming from a CRT though, then 60Hz may look more "natural" to your eyes.

If your player is set to 24Hz, and you do not have Cinema Smooth enabled on the TV, then it will probably just display the 24fps film content at 60Hz using a 3:2 cadence, as FAUguy suggested above.
I see. So, when the F4500 says 24p, it's just the input signal not the screens actual refresh rate. To get 96 hz I have to enable cinema smooth to avoid 3:2 pull down.

I appreciate it guys. Thanks.
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post #1451 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 01:17 AM
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Regarding vertical line mine has that too,but a bit more too the left.Its faint about 3 inches and I notice it in hockey when the camera moves side too side .Fairly sure Removing back and turning up vs voltage got rid of most of it,but I had to go higher than the sticker number.You can seriously electrocute yourself if you touch the wrong thing.
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post #1452 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
Thanks for all the info you've been posting. Two quick questions...

Does the grayscale get messed-up if you keep Cell Light at 20 & Contrast at 95, and use a higher Eco Solution/Energy Saving setting to reduce the display's brightness instead?

And why did you raise Color above the correct decoding values of 44 for Standard/Game mode, and 50 for Movie mode on the HDMI settings?
Regarding the ECO settings, I'll check later.

As for the colour setting, its to improve red saturation tracking in a way that results in lower dE in that area of the gamut (Zoyd's 1000 point verification patch set).

Download the before and after attachments, view them in a photo viewer and go back and forth, you'll see how the red dots are closer to the red boxes.

Also because I've lowered the luminance of each colour to counteract the raising of the main colour control it all works out in the end.
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post #1453 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post
Regarding vertical line mine has that too,but a bit more too the left.Its faint about 3 inches and I notice it in hockey when the camera moves side too side .Fairly sure Removing back and turning up vs voltage got rid of most of it,but I had to go higher than the sticker number.You can seriously electrocute yourself if you touch the wrong thing.
I have also noticed this vertical line right in the middle of my 43PN4500, and it is about 4" in height. I really only see it on monochromatic images, such as all white or sky blue.
I've see those little wheel adjustments on the back circuit boards. Which one did you adjust to get rid of it?
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post #1454 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 11:12 AM
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I have also noticed this vertical line right in the middle of my 43PN4500, and it is about 4" in height. I really only see it on monochromatic images, such as all white or sky blue.
I've see those little wheel adjustments on the back circuit boards. Which one did you adjust to get rid of it?
That sound EXACTLY like mine! Same place, same size, same model, same kind of images show it (clouds and sky blue)? Okay, that can't be a coincidence. I was going to give it a month to fade before taking it to be exchanged for another, but now I'm thinking it's a factory fault that effects every tv of this model or something.
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post #1455 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 11:13 AM
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Quick question, a family member has recently picked up a 43" 4500 Samsung plasma.

I was having a play with it and noticed the black optimiser option and tried adjusting it from off to dark room (as well as the other options) and it's making ZERO difference.

I thought it was meant to make a difference, but the blacks are seriously milky grey, now this isn't a rgb range issue (hdmi level in samsungs case) as that is set correctly.

I was expecting to see an obvious difference to the mll. It's no different at all, the black level stays the same. I also can't notice any scan lines in the blacks either, infact looking close up to the screen and changing the black optimiser seems to have no effect.

On my VT60 for example when switching from panel luminance mid to low the higher mll in low is obvious without a meter, and when switching to mid the mll is visibly lower and the scan lines are then visible too.

To be fair I don't have my meter with me to take measurements but there's certainly nothing visible by eye in a pitch black room.

Is their plasma faulty?

Just to clarify I'm not complaining about the worse blacks compared to a near flagship Panasonic plasma, im just concerned at the fact the black optimiser setting is showing no effect at all between the different options.

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post #1456 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 11:27 AM
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I could also SWEAR that I see a few horizontal lines around the mid-point of the screen, even more faint than the vertical one. But that can't be right, can it? If it's really there, guess I can only hope that they will also go away as the tv ages.
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post #1457 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 11:42 AM
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Quick question, a family member has recently picked up a 43" 4500 Samsung plasma.

I was having a play with it and noticed the black optimiser option and tried adjusting it from off to dark room (as well as the other options) and it's making ZERO difference.

I thought it was meant to make a difference, but the blacks are seriously milky grey, now this isn't a rgb range issue (hdmi level in samsungs case) as that is set correctly.

I was expecting to see an obvious difference to the mll. It's no different at all, the black level stays the same. I also can't notice any scan lines in the blacks either, infact looking close up to the screen and changing the black optimiser seems to have no effect.

On my VT60 for example when switching from panel luminance mid to low the higher mll in low is obvious without a meter, and when switching to mid the mll is visibly lower and the scan lines are then visible too.

To be fair I don't have my meter with me to take measurements but there's certainly nothing visible by eye in a pitch black room.

Is their plasma faulty?

Just to clarify I'm not complaining about the worse blacks compared to a near flagship Panasonic plasma, im just concerned at the fact the black optimiser setting is showing no effect at all between the different options.
Black optimiser doesn't make a huge visible difference but it does make a big contrast ratio difference.

These numbers are a bit old now that I discovered the TV can do 160cdm2.

Off) 120/0.008= 15000:1
Dark Room) 120/0.0068= 17647:1
Bright Room) 148/0.008= 18500:1
Auto) 145/0.0068= 21323:1

Auto uses the light sensor on the front of the TV to decide whether to use Dark Room+ more light output or Bright Room.

It also expands the 16-235 range to maximise graduation.

How much light is falling on the screen? The phosphors will reflect light back making it look grey (Like a CRT).
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post #1458 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 11:52 AM
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Black optimiser doesn't make a huge visible difference but it does make a big contrast ratio difference.

These numbers are a bit old now that I discovered the TV can do 160cdm2.

Off) 120/0.008= 15000:1
Dark Room) 120/0.0068= 17647:1
Bright Room) 148/0.008= 18500:1
Auto) 145/0.0068= 21323:1

Auto uses the light sensor on the front of the TV to decide whether to use Dark Room+ more light output or Bright Room.

It also expands the 16-235 range to maximise graduation.

How much light is falling on the screen? The phosphors will reflect light back making it look grey (Like a CRT).
There's no light reflecting on the front of the screen, just a bias light behind the screen and black out blinds.

I've got quite an eye for detail, usually spotting minor things that no one else would see, and I can literally see nothing different between the modes on the black levels.

Even on a movie with black bars it shows no difference, my main concern at this stage was purely the mll as opposed to the bigger contrast ratio.

The reason for my "concern" was incase the set is faulty, I guess the only way I'll know is by bringing my meter round to take measurements, but in the meantime I was wondering if it was visible by eye.

As I mentiond earlier even if I turn off the bias light behind the screen and look at a full screen 0IRE slide and flick through dark room, and off I see nothing at all.

Going by your recorded measurements I'd have expected the mll difference to be visible by eye, or at least the scan lines to be visible when enabling black optimiser. I'm sure I read that scan lines were visible as the mll got lower due to the panel being driven differently, but as I said I can't discern any change whatsoever with the different options.
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post #1459 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 12:01 PM
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Heres a .ccss file if it helps put it in C:\User\Username\Appdata\Roaming\color for HCFR to see it. When new I'd expect the TV to have a black level of 0.009cdm2 to 0.011cdm2.
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post #1460 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 12:11 PM
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Heres a .ccss file if it helps put it in C:\User\Username\Appdata\Roaming\color for HCFR to see it. When new I'd expect the TV to have a black level of 0.009cdm2 to 0.011cdm2.
Thank you.

So given what you're saying with regards to the mll being 0.009 to 0.011 when new, can I assume that the mll gets lower?

Not sure how many hours they have on it, but it's less than 10 I'd guess.

If it is the case that the mll gets slightly lower over time, I'd be interested in knowing roughly timescales, and drops etc as I'm assuming you've been taking regular readings during your ownership?
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post #1461 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 12:46 PM
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That sound EXACTLY like mine! Same place, same size, same model, same kind of images show it (clouds and sky blue)? Okay, that can't be a coincidence. I was going to give it a month to fade before taking it to be exchanged for another, but now I'm thinking it's a factory fault that effects every tv of this model or something.
I've had this set since mid October and it has about 1800hrs when I checked it a few days ago, and the vertical band in the center is still there, though I think it is less noticeable...or I've just got use to it.
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post #1462 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 01:35 PM
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Thank you.

So given what you're saying with regards to the mll being 0.009 to 0.011 when new, can I assume that the mll gets lower?

Not sure how many hours they have on it, but it's less than 10 I'd guess.

If it is the case that the mll gets slightly lower over time, I'd be interested in knowing roughly timescales, and drops etc as I'm assuming you've been taking regular readings during your ownership?
Looking through my files about 3 months, but I only use my TV lightly, its coming up to a year (March 12th) and I think I've only done 3000 hours (estimate). So I'd say about 500 hours.
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post #1463 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 03:08 PM
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Regarding the vertical line issue, do all you guys seeing it have the BFXZA revision sets? Its not there on my AFXZA, at all. I'll have to put up some full color slides on my BFXZA and check it again, but Im fairly certain it doesnt have it either.

Displays: Samsung PN51F5300BFXA, PN51F4500AFXA, PN51F4500BFXA

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post #1464 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 03:55 PM
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Fauguy-its the VS voltage one.Ive read that SOMETIMES they will come and check the voltages within warranty,or Im sure an electronics shop would test them if your not familiar with electricity.

all or almost all plasmas have horizontal lines/line bleed on light screens more noticable when the camera is moving,or objects are moving around.Some tvs are worse than others.
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post #1465 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 05:11 PM
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Fauguy-its the VS voltage one.Ive read that SOMETIMES they will come and check the voltages within warranty,or Im sure an electronics shop would test them if your not familiar with electricity.

all or almost all plasmas have horizontal lines/line bleed on light screens more noticable when the camera is moving,or objects are moving around.Some tvs are worse than others.
So that's what the faint horizontal lines in the middle of the screen are?
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post #1466 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 05:26 PM
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Regarding the vertical line issue, do all you guys seeing it have the BFXZA revision sets? Its not there on my AFXZA, at all. I'll have to put up some full color slides on my BFXZA and check it again, but Im fairly certain it doesnt have it either.
Mine is the 43" BF set. I had two of them from BB in October, but returned one since it had a few dead pixels...but both had this vertical band in the center. Its about 4" long and about as wide as a finger. When looking at the color break in slides I don't really see it, but if I'm watching a program what has a light colored image, and the camera is moving, I can see it then. So because if this, a majority of the time it isn't noticeable.
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post #1467 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post
Fauguy-its the VS voltage one.Ive read that SOMETIMES they will come and check the voltages within warranty,or Im sure an electronics shop would test them if your not familiar with electricity.

all or almost all plasmas have horizontal lines/line bleed on light screens more noticable when the camera is moving,or objects are moving around.Some tvs are worse than others.
I'm not seeing any horizontal lines, but vertical right in the center, about 4" long and the width of a finger. Only really noticeable when a light colored screen and the image is moving (such as a blue sky, snow, etc).
I read a few month ago that one of those adjustment wheels allowed for better grays when watching B&W movies, instead of grays looking pinkish.
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post #1468 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 06:17 PM
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Mine is the 43" BF set. I had two of them from BB in October, but returned one since it had a few dead pixels...but both had this vertical band in the center. Its about 4" long and about as wide as a finger. When looking at the color break in slides I don't really see it, but if I'm watching a program what has a light colored image, and the camera is moving, I can see it then. So because if this, a majority of the time it isn't noticeable.
I just checked my BFXZA set again, theres nothing there. Ive had it for about 9 months now though, if it had such an issue , I'd have already seen it. The pics of SF4 I posted a few posts back are of the BFXZA.

Displays: Samsung PN51F5300BFXA, PN51F4500AFXA, PN51F4500BFXA

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post #1469 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FAUguy View Post
I'm not seeing any horizontal lines, but vertical right in the center, about 4" long and the width of a finger. Only really noticeable when a light colored screen and the image is moving (such as a blue sky, snow, etc).
I read a few month ago that one of those adjustment wheels allowed for better grays when watching B&W movies, instead of grays looking pinkish.

On the close up of the womans face, when she moves I always see line bleed from the steps behind her (start at 3:01).
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post #1470 of 1547 Old 03-10-2015, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22point8 View Post
http://youtu.be/WcTJbQAoUmY?t=2m51s

On the close up of the womans face, when she moves I always see line bleed from the steps behind her (start at 3:01).
It might be there in an extremely slight amount, but pretty impressive nonetheless. The scene was obviously meant to show off lack of line bleed.

Makes me sad to think some of the most kick-ass TVs of all time and the technology behind them stopped being produced years ago.

Displays: Samsung PN51F5300BFXA, PN51F4500AFXA, PN51F4500BFXA

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