Official ZT60 Owners Thread - Page 291 - AVS Forum
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post #8701 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amercnchopz34 View Post





This is my set....I'm a little concerned about this as well..not bad now....makes me wonder the same thing about why production stopped

I plan to watch this issue. My set only has around 215 hours on it. I've only had the set for 2 weeks.
Maybe it's like Panasonic said and is a variation on manufacturing process of the TV. But, I'm not convinced at this point. Could be separation cause by a defect in manufacturing process, material or etc. Time will tell.
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post #8702 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOJIN View Post


No, I get you. Still, it seems to me that the communication between the BB tech and the Pana rep wasn't clear. As you can see in these pictures, the glass is indeed coming un-bonded. No doubt about it. True, when you look at these pictures or at your own set closely, you'll see that there are in fact variations in width between the glass and the bezel. But we are talking about variations in width between the glass and the actual panel underneath. Look at the pictures RFK54 just posted. You'll see slight variations between the glass and the bezel, yes. Well, maybe not so much in these pictures, but everyone can check this on their own set. To simplify this, look at the 'black strip', top to bottom, between the glass and the bezel. There are variations in width, yes. This is what I THINK the Pana rep is referring to. But on the lower left (first pic), the glass is separating from the actual panel. Granted, his doesn't look too bad but others have it a lot worse. I'd like to add that english isn't my mother language, so I hope I made myself clear enough.
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post #8703 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:19 AM
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What is your build date rfk54


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Originally Posted by RFK54 View Post




Here's a couple shots of my zt gap. Left side, April build, Best Buy demo.
Picture looks fine and I love this TV so I hope it will hold up for a long life.
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post #8704 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:25 AM
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these separations and the micro fractures are awful, I'm paranoid now

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post #8705 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoetrope View Post




No, I get you. Still, it seems to me that the communication between the BB rep and the Pana tech wasn't clear. As you can see in these pictures, the glass is indeed coming un-bonded. No doubt about it. True, when you look at these pictures or at your own set closely, you'll see that there are in fact variations in width between the glass and the bezel. But we are talking about variations in width between the glass and the actual panel underneath. Look at the pictures RFK54 just posted above. You'll see slight variations between the glass and the bezel, yes. Well, maybe not so much in these pictures, but everyone can check this on their own set. To simplify this, look at the 'black strip', top to bottom, between the glass and the bezel. There are variations in width, yes. This is what I THINK the Pana rep is referring to. But on the lower left (first pic), the glass is separating from the actual panel. Granted, his doesn't look too bad but others have it a lot worse. I'd like to add that english isn't my mother language, so I hope I made myself clear enough.

There are some examples on here where I totally agree that it is an issue, but for the majority of the people stressing out about panel separation i.e. me (one week ago), I don't think it is an issue. Keep in mind that the panel does not start for about 1 1/4 inch into the glass if that makes sense. Also for me, if I push on the glass slightly it will move inward along with the pixels, and when I release, it springs back out slightly and the pixels follow indicating to me that the panel is still bonded to the screen on my set.

 

Again, I have decided to just take the Panasonic reps word for it for now, if it gets worse then I will deal with it then.

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post #8706 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:34 AM
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The Build date is April 2013, probably one of the first sets produced #A00301
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post #8707 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOJIN View Post

There are some examples on here where I totally agree that it is an issue, but for the majority of the people stressing out about panel separation i.e. me (one week ago), I don't think it is an issue. Keep in mind that the panel does not start for about 1 1/4 inch into the glass if that makes sense. Also for me, if I push on the glass slightly it will move inward along with the pixels, and when I release it springs back out slightly and the pixels follow indicating to me that the panel is still bonded to the screen on my set.

Again, I have decided to just take the Panasonic reps word for it for now, if it gets worse then I will deal with it then.
Very important point - What many folks might have forgot - the actual panel is an inch+ back from the edge of the glass - wonder if our VT60 brothers & sisters are having the same issue - someone who has this concern might want to check out their thread

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1408338/official-panasonic-vt50-owners-thread

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 - Oppo BDP-103D - Panasonic DMP-BDT220 - Toshiba HD-DVD-3A - OPPO DV-981HD - Harmony 880

Onkyo TX-NR809 --- Definitive Technology - Studio Monitor 65 (2) - CS8040HD - Studio Monitor 45 (2) - Super Cube 6000
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post #8708 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:49 AM
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"For the most part, however, it is a normal production variation according to the Panasonic rep."

Reps also said there is no known issue with fan noise, and micro-fractures are not happening. I don't take their word for anything.
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post #8709 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 10:53 AM
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I'm wondering how much of the "panel separation" is due to the way the set was handled once in peoples' homes? Not saying that people "mis-handled" the set, or "didn't know what they were doing", but just curious as to whether when moved, the set was grabbed by the bezel, or bezel and glass, or whether it was moved multiple times, etc.

FWIW, I mounted both of my sets on the stock ZT stands, as well as lifted them on to their respective "TV stands" by myself. However I had to lift them in the middle, while getting them onto the stands. I know that I had very little pressure on the glass itself while moving, especially on the corners...mark me down for "no separation", on (2) sets.
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post #8710 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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Not many people can lift 90+ pounds by themselves (109 with the stand). wink.gif My tendinitis-ridden elbows have weakened me considerably sadly. I also have what looks like minor separation in all 4 corners to varying degrees. There were two of us involved with placing the panel on its stand, and I am sure pressure was applied against the glass during the process.
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post #8711 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:16 AM
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From consumers report and I quote "That's what we found when we asked about more than 161,000 flat panel LCD and plasma TVs purchased by our readers between 2009 and 2013" http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/tvs-services/tvs/lcd-and-plasma-tvs-ratings/brand-reliability.htm (Don't know if link will work - I subscribe)

Amazing that Samsung is twice what Panasonic is - my heart goes out to those poor folks who bought the F8500's

Repairs and Serious Problems

Panasonic 2%

Sony 3%

Sharp 3%

LG 3%

Samsung 4%

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 - Oppo BDP-103D - Panasonic DMP-BDT220 - Toshiba HD-DVD-3A - OPPO DV-981HD - Harmony 880

Onkyo TX-NR809 --- Definitive Technology - Studio Monitor 65 (2) - CS8040HD - Studio Monitor 45 (2) - Super Cube 6000
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post #8712 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Fan fix measurements were made at six feet and at three inches

Pre-fix the room was hovering at 30db six feet from the screen with no TV on.

TV turned on the mic recorded
- 40 db at six feet
- 53 db at three inches

After the fix
TV turned on the mic recorded
- 38 db at six feet
- 50 db at three inches

So not much attenuation rolleyes.gif

This was done with white screen to generate the largest amount of current!

The technician apologized that he could do any better than that unfortunately, the new fans are the same design, he tightened all the boards to ensure no rattling.

Panasonic provided him with a Pro Audio Galaxy Audio CM-150 Check Mate SPL Meter specifically to measure

3dB lower =half as loud!! so there is some improvement!
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post #8713 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

From consumers report and I quote "That's what we found when we asked about more than 161,000 flat panel LCD and plasma TVs purchased by our readers between 2009 and 2013" http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/tvs-services/tvs/lcd-and-plasma-tvs-ratings/brand-reliability.htm (Don't know if link will work - I subscribe)

Amazing that Samsung is twice what Panasonic is - my heart goes out to those poor folks who bought the F8500's

Repairs and Serious Problems

Panasonic 2%

Sony 3%

Sharp 3%

LG 3%

Samsung 4%

need subscription, what are the zt ratings?
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post #8714 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by slowball View Post

need subscription, what are the zt ratings?

only does "brands" not models -here is what they said about ZT (abbreviated)

This ultra-flagship 60-inch 3D-capable plasma TV delivers stunning high-definition picture quality--arguably the best of any conventional set we've so far tested--albeit at a higher price. Among its many fine attributes is the deepest black levels we've seen from a plasma TV. It also has very good 3D performance. In fact, the only areas where the TV fell short was image brightness, where the picture was dimmer than average, and its sound quality, which was only fair--the main reason this TV wasn't at the very top of our Ratings. This set, which has an elegant "one-sheet-of-glass" design with a narrow metal bezel and rectangular metal stand, is loaded with features, including built-in Wi-Fi and Panasonic's full Viera Connect Internet platform, with a full Web browser, an apps market, and access to streaming movies and TV shows

Let me bring up an interesting point - CNET now uses the ZT as it's reference HDTV - In the past they always report problems they have with long-term test sets - they updated their review in 11/13 and report no problems "Review Date: 5/20/13 - Updated on: 11/15/13".

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 - Oppo BDP-103D - Panasonic DMP-BDT220 - Toshiba HD-DVD-3A - OPPO DV-981HD - Harmony 880

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post #8715 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:38 AM
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thanks
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post #8716 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amercnchopz34 View Post





This is my set....I'm a little concerned about this as well..not bad now....makes me wonder the same thing about why production stopped
It must be the way I'm looking at the picture. I don't immediately see any separation on your panel??

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post #8717 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 11:53 AM
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Thanks. The WoW disc helped a lot until a certain point, after which there was little marginal improvement. Then I had to switch to the built in "screen wipe" which has actually taken the IR down to 20%. This is only when viewing a white or grey slide. In real viewing material, it cannot be seen 99% of the time.
Sounds like you have a normal IR situation. As long as you don't go exclusive with a fixed image, like watching nothing but the news. and have a good mix of source material, you should be fine. The one exception is having the feeling, "I can't see it, but I know it's there." That can cause problems. wink.gif
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post #8718 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 12:17 PM
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So about 100 hours on the zt60 at this point. Used d nice settings. Color improving daily. However, the overall picture has a slight blur to it. It's kind of like an slr camera where you are just a tiny bit out of focus. What setting do I need to play with to improve this. Source is time warner cable box going through receiver, same set up as with the Kuro that I moved to another room.
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post #8719 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post


Thanks. The WoW disc helped a lot until a certain point, after which there was little marginal improvement. Then I had to switch to the built in "screen wipe" which has actually taken the IR down to 20%. This is only when viewing a white or grey slide. In real viewing material, it cannot be seen 99% of the time.
Sounds like you have a normal IR situation. As long as you don't go exclusive with a fixed image, like watching nothing but the news. and have a good mix of source material, you should be fine. The one exception is having the feeling, "I can't see it, but I know it's there." That can cause problems. wink.gif

I hope so. It's very stubborn. I had told my family not to watch more than 30 minutes of cnbc at a time, but that didn't happen. Ah well, it's just a toy I keep telling myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #8720 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 12:54 PM
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I hope so. It's very stubborn. I had told my family not to watch more than 30 minutes of cnbc at a time, but that didn't happen. Ah well, it's just a toy I keep telling myself.
The third link in my original reply indicated that in our household we watch a lot of NFL and a gigantic amount (my wife) of NHL games. They all have fixed images and run much longer than thirty minutes. My theory is that what is important is the other sources that are watched. In our case it's a lot of movies from shiny disks and other material with no fixed images or at least low contrast fixed images. While plasma panels vary in their susceptibility to IR, a good mix of source material will always help keep IR from being visible during normal programming.

Right now it's Winter Olympics time. Last night my wife stayed up to watch the after midnight ice skating. For the day, the fixed NBC Olympic logo was on the screen for a good eight hours. Who, me worry? wink.gif
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post #8721 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrygeary View Post

"For the most part, however, it is a normal production variation according to the Panasonic rep."

Reps also said there is no known issue with fan noise, and micro-fractures are not happening. I don't take their word for anything.

Panasonic will tell you every thing is perfect so they don't have to deal with it mad.gif
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post #8722 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

only does "brands" not models -here is what they said about ZT (abbreviated)

This ultra-flagship 60-inch 3D-capable plasma TV delivers stunning high-definition picture quality--arguably the best of any conventional set we've so far tested--albeit at a higher price. Among its many fine attributes is the deepest black levels we've seen from a plasma TV. It also has very good 3D performance. In fact, the only areas where the TV fell short was image brightness, where the picture was dimmer than average, and its sound quality, which was only fair--the main reason this TV wasn't at the very top of our Ratings. This set, which has an elegant "one-sheet-of-glass" design with a narrow metal bezel and rectangular metal stand, is loaded with features, including built-in Wi-Fi and Panasonic's full Viera Connect Internet platform, with a full Web browser, an apps market, and access to streaming movies and TV shows

Let me bring up an interesting point - CNET now uses the ZT as it's reference HDTV - In the past they always report problems they have with long-term test sets - they updated their review in 11/13 and report no problems "Review Date: 5/20/13 - Updated on: 11/15/13".

Great they are a good reference since they use that thing day in day out biggrin.gif
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post #8723 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:36 PM
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I've look at the pictures and I've looked at my ZT and I am thinking.....

1. Is this even glass that is adhered to another piece of glass....

2. Is this a piece of Acrylic or Plexi-glass that is adhered to the underlining glass....

A filter of sort, or for protection or do we even know.....

When you look between the inner and outer layers you will see foam which probably has adhesive on both sides.

Remember one poster has a scratch caused by a glove during handling....glass just doesn't scratch that easily.

Just thinking out loud....

Any more thoughts?

Dave

"Appeasment only makes the Aggressor more Aggressive"
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post #8724 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheridave View Post

I've look at the pictures and I've looked at my ZT and I am thinking.....

1. Is this even glass that is adhered to another piece of glass....

2. Is this a piece of Acrylic or Plexi-glass that is adhered to the underlining glass....

A filter of sort, or for protection or do we even know.....

When you look between the inner and outer layers you will see foam which probably has adhesive on both sides.

Remember one poster has a scratch caused by a glove during handling....glass just doesn't scratch that easily.

Just thinking out loud.... Any more thoughts? Dave

You are saying the front is not glass? I thought it was a single sheet of glass!
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post #8725 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:45 PM
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I'm trying to get us to think about what we are truly seeing.

Glass doesn't flex and folks are saying that theirs is flexible.

The one-piece glass theory stands.

Look for the foam between the layers.

That is not part of a single bonding process.

Dave

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post #8726 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheridave View Post

I've look at the pictures and I've looked at my ZT and I am thinking.....

1. Is this even glass that is adhered to another piece of glass....

2. Is this a piece of Acrylic or Plexi-glass that is adhered to the underlining glass....

A filter of sort, or for protection or do we even know.....

When you look between the inner and outer layers you will see foam which probably has adhesive on both sides.

Remember one poster has a scratch caused by a glove during handling....glass just doesn't scratch that easily.

Just thinking out loud....

Any more thoughts?

Dave
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

You are saying the front is not glass? I thought it was a single sheet of glass!

Page 4 - second paragraph


http://www.tc-p65zt60.com/uploads/ZT60_2013_VE_US_catalog.pdf

An air layer existed between the front glass and the panel
unit of conventional models. Panasonic's originally
developed Air Gapless technology has eliminated this air
layer by bonding the front glass directly to the panel unit.

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 - Oppo BDP-103D - Panasonic DMP-BDT220 - Toshiba HD-DVD-3A - OPPO DV-981HD - Harmony 880

Onkyo TX-NR809 --- Definitive Technology - Studio Monitor 65 (2) - CS8040HD - Studio Monitor 45 (2) - Super Cube 6000
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post #8727 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:58 PM
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Thanks Bob,

I remember seeing that.

Take a bright pen light and take a look around the edges, also take a look from the front of the panel around the Black areas.

I just don't know if this front panel is part of the Airless Gap Bonding Process.

But what the Hell do I know.....

Dave

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post #8728 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheridave View Post

I've look at the pictures and I've looked at my ZT and I am thinking.....

1. Is this even glass that is adhered to another piece of glass....

2. Is this a piece of Acrylic or Plexi-glass that is adhered to the underlining glass....

A filter of sort, or for protection or do we even know.....

When you look between the inner and outer layers you will see foam which probably has adhesive on both sides.

Remember one poster has a scratch caused by a glove during handling....glass just doesn't scratch that easily.

Just thinking out loud....

Any more thoughts?

Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

You are saying the front is not glass? I thought it was a single sheet of glass!

A little more on the subject - the engineers who made it

http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/people_and_passion_2013/index.html

Could you describe the AGL method that enabled ultimate picture quality?

Taniguchi: Since 2009 Panasonic's flagship TV models have adopted a "One sheet of glass" design scheme, which has been highly evaluated. However, some people expressed concern that the front glass panel might sacrifice picture quality. Installation of a glass panel in front of the display panel creates an unnecessary air layer between the glass and panel. This air layer can cause double-images and other problems. For models leading up to the previous year's model, the VT50, we used a filter technology and the like to overcome the problems created by the air gap layer. When we decided to review all the related technologies once again, we decided to focus on the simple but most fundamental target of eliminating double-images. To pursue the ultimate picture quality, we had to consider removing the unwanted air gap layer between the display panel and glass panel. However, it was extremely difficult to physically get rid of the air gap layer. As a result, we opted for the AGL method. At the beginning, we racked our brains to figure out how we could reduce the air gap layer to zero and how we could achieve the highest possible picture quality after achieving the zero air layer. AGL stands for Air Gap Less, and the name "AGL method" was coined by us at the time the development started. This method uses a technology commonly referred to as direct bonding. Masuda: It was our first attempt to use the AGL method for a large-screen TV. It was a very difficult method to employ. Needless to say, mass production was a prerequisite. So members expressed their concerns, such as whether the use of the AGL method would achieve the desired yield rate and whether it would enable us to maintain profitability. I was involved in the development of the actual method. In the beginning, even most of the development team members were not really positive about the method. What changed our mind was also the teamwork. For example, the hardware department and software department, which usually work separately in the past, collaborated closely in the development of the ZT60. I believe this collaborative approach raised our motivation and enabled us to overcome the difficulties. Taniguchi: Actually, development of the AGL method was initiated even before the ZT60 project. We began research and development of the AGL method near the end of 2009 as a possible means of improving picture quality in addition to its use for design enhancement. At that time, we wanted to complete the technology as soon as possible so we could incorporate it immediately in the development of new TV models. However, it was extremely difficult to bond the glass and the rigid panel without creating any air gap layer, and we were faced with repeated failures. We simply couldn't develop the method successfully. We kept trying and conducted numerous experiments. Before we succeeded, we had developed more than 20 material types for bonding material development and bonded more than 1,000 panels with unsuccessful results. After a few years had passed, we were able to see the prospect of commercial application of the AGL method. This coincided with the start of the ZT60 development. For many years, we went through the process of trial and error, without knowing the cause of our failures. But as soon as we discovered the cause, we believed that the method could be applied to mass production. We were thrilled to incorporate the new technology into actual products.

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 - Oppo BDP-103D - Panasonic DMP-BDT220 - Toshiba HD-DVD-3A - OPPO DV-981HD - Harmony 880

Onkyo TX-NR809 --- Definitive Technology - Studio Monitor 65 (2) - CS8040HD - Studio Monitor 45 (2) - Super Cube 6000
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post #8729 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Panasonic will tell you every thing is perfect so they don't have to deal with it mad.gif


Not so, Panny sent over their tech to look at my ZT. The tech report was that the set was to Panasonics specs. Although there were some banning he could see. I told Panny I wasn't happy with the set and they are taking it back with 700+ hours. I think Panasonic stepped up.

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post #8730 of 12251 Old 02-09-2014, 02:03 PM
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It must be the way I'm looking at the picture. I don't immediately see any separation on your panel??

Very slight on 1st pic
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