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post #9001 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 09:44 PM
 
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All there is to know about the North American microfracture debacle so far (this feels like deja vu).
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post #9002 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 09:46 PM
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Selfmade, is the 5" size downgrade going to bother you much? It'll be interesting to hear your comparison between vt and zt.
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post #9003 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 09:50 PM
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I want to say Amazon....but I'm reticent for fear of not being 100% sure and concerns about your well-being.
I thought it was an Amazon "like new" deal that was too good to pass up.
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post #9004 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 09:51 PM
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W
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Ok so I'm keeping the order. And from what I can conclude the micro fractures are only from those who had a fan fix done and back panel put back on improperly? Or is stress doing this as well. Just don't want to go down the road say a year and I wake up and boom cracks all over!!
what if that person returned the zt because they had they fan fix done and they felt it was still too loud. Then one day you wake up with micro fractures and think wtf I never had the fix done. redface.gif :O
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post #9005 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 09:53 PM
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Ok so I'm keeping the order. And from what I can conclude the micro fractures are only from those who had a fan fix done and back panel put back on improperly? Or is stress doing this as well. Just don't want to go down the road say a year and I wake up and boom cracks all over!!
Stress, especially torque, can crack any plasma. It can happen any time the set is moved or shipped, but mostly people don't stress glass because they know it can crack.
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post #9006 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 09:55 PM
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Ok so I'm keeping the order. And from what I can conclude the micro fractures are only from those who had a fan fix done and back panel put back on improperly? Or is stress doing this as well. Just don't want to go down the road say a year and I wake up and boom cracks all over!!

When in doubt, ask yourself what's the worse that can happen? In this case your TV craps out 1 day after the warranty and you are out $2800. Sucks, but not the end of the world. Definitely not worth worry about it since the micro fracture thing is an extremely small % of the overall units.
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post #9007 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View PostOk so I'm keeping the order. And from what I can conclude the micro fractures are only from those who had a fan fix done and back panel put back on improperly? Or is stress doing this as well. Just don't want to go down the road say a year and I wake up and boom cracks all over!!

WARRANTY at least you get your money back OLED have dropped down in price by 50% in a year I suspect next year they will be at $3,000 or less :)

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post #9008 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 10:30 PM
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That's wishful thinking OLED will be 50% the cost at this time next year. I hope your right. It will be only LG since Samsung is really struggling to mass produce and low yields.
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post #9009 of 12664 Old 02-11-2014, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason626 View PostThat's wishful thinking OLED will be 50% the cost at this time next year. I hope your right. It will be only LG since Samsung is really struggling to mass produce and low yields.

Well it went from $15,000 in 2013 to $6,000  in 2014

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post #9010 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 12:53 AM
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That's wishful thinking OLED will be 50% the cost at this time next year. I hope your right. It will be only LG since Samsung is really struggling to mass produce and low yields.
Well it went from $15,000 in 2013 to $6,000  in 2014
Are you referring to LG? Samsung came in at around $8,000 and LG lowered their price to match them several weeks ago. I don't know what the street prices are now, but I do know that due to production limitations, the 55" new models from LG might reach $6,000 this coming year. As I understand it, one sheet of glass with the new printing devices coming on line can do six 55" panels per sheet. Anything bigger screen size will yield one panel per sheet. If that's correct information, it will be a bit longer before bigger panels can come down a significant amount.

Of course, clearance sales can result in artificial price structures that wouldn't be a true indicator for afford-ability coming sooner. I recall the the first DLP HD-RPTV I saw was a $13,000 52" Panasonic. At about the same time there was a $20K+ Mitsubishi but I never saw one until a few years later when one showed up at our Fry's store for around $1,000. The Panasonic dropped from $13K to $10k fairly soon, but a year later Samsung had one on the market for about $4,200. When Panasonic tried to match that price point, their sets developed major problems. I bought the third Samsung model produced by Samsung which went for about $2,800. By then Panasonic had dropped DLP.

I'm hoping for a similar pattern and time line from OLED, but I'm not counting on it. Based on the DLP time line above, that would be in about four years -- give or take a year. At my age it might be wishful thinking. rolleyes.gif
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post #9011 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Yes, as is typical, you're seeing an issue blown way out of proportion.

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Because for the most part it's so minor that only the OCD would see it! I didn't notice it until I looked at a perfect 90-degree angle after the clamor on here because it never dawned on me to bother. There is the smallest amount of give when pressing inward on the glass. I just can't get worked up by it.

Totally agree - Love the "OCD" reference - Had a dream last night that all the Police Departments in the USA were getting 911 calls from concerned husbands/wives/SO's about people crawling around their Panasonic ZT's screaming "I HAVE TO FIND THE GAP, I have to find the Gap"

Some people are actually saying they won't buy a ZT because folks are having their the front glass panels fall off!

Yet the prices for the few remaining panels goes up every day! "Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 65-Inch 1080p 600Hz 3D Smart Plasma TV (Discontinued by Manufacturer) has increased from $4,999.00 to $5,199.00"

PS: I actually found a small gap on the lower front/left of my 65ZT panel as I noted earlier - I could just barely get the tip of my fingernail in if I tried hard (which I stopped doing two days ago, fighting hard to control my own OCD).

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post #9012 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Ok so I'm keeping the order. And from what I can conclude the micro fractures are only from those who had a fan fix done and back panel put back on improperly? Or is stress doing this as well. Just don't want to go down the road say a year and I wake up and boom cracks all over!!
I predict you will go back and forth on your decision another 40 times before something finally arrives at your house.

You thought that Panasonic sabotaged your black levels on your VT60 because they built it in October and they employee's were mad about losing their job so took it out on your panel. You were worried that the stand was not built strong enough to hold the TV up and will one day just crumble or how do we know a wall mount is able to hold this TV. It was one thing after another. Once something was settled in your mind you found something else to obsess over.

So based on this, I cannot believe you are buying a used TV. If you think Panasonic employee's didn't care on how they built your TV now you are going to buy a TV that not only was sabotaged by Panasonic employee's but who knows that the person who owned this TV did to it. Then what about how they packed it up or treated it once they new they were not going to keep it? Then the extra movement from the shipping company. Do you seriously think that you won't find anything wrong with a used ZT60? Do you think that every time you find something new to obsess over it won't run through your mind on how the previous owner treated the TV?

Then moving onto Paul's. Do you think it is a good idea based on the type of person you are to order a TV from a store that you can't just return the TV to for free after you find 20 made up things wrong with it?

Get a new F8500, suck up the lesser blacks although according to you the blacks on your VT60 are defective so the F8500 blacks should actually be an improvement and buy a new TV. You have already been through 2 VT60's, do you really think a used ZT60 is the answer to your problems?

Anyway, that is my honest opinion with no sugar coating. I am out of this one so good luck with whatever decision you make.

If it is a ZT60, good luck to everyone in this thread because you will need it. You might want to have a drink before entering this thread.

If you get an F8500, well the guys in that thread deserve what they will get. lol
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post #9013 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

All there is to know about the North American microfracture debacle so far (this feels like deja vu).

thank you - really puts the whole discussion in the proper perspective!

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So I just ordered a "like new" ZT60 from Amazon. My big concern was micro fractures but now it is Defintely this separation issue that is going on!! I am about to cancel my
Order and stick with my 65VT60. Good or bad idea to go ahead with the purchase? Even with the separations if you guys knew that before purchase would you still buy? I am about to take Amazons offer of any new TV sold by Amazon and I get 300$ off I might just grab a Sammy ;(


Grab the F8500.  If I didn't already have a ZT with no issues and had to make a choice between the ZT and the F8500, I'd go for the F8500.  Arguably, just as good a pic, brighter and no anxious anticipation of fan noise, fractures or separation.  Just my $.02.

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post #9015 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 07:08 AM
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One last question...60ZT60 "like new" from Amazon Warehouse 2409$ or 60ZT60 new in box from Pauls 2999$ no tax free delivery, I would say white glove but Pauls uses one guy to deliver I don't really consider that white glove. Over all approx 600$ (Makes a pretty big difference even after the tax applied) savings going with Amazon. Or lastly take the 300$ discount Amazon offered toward any new in box item if I return the 65VT60. The only Other thing is a Sammy f8500...idk bout all that even with 300$ off. And obviously will be purchasing a warranty.

My only other issue is that I purchased a S.Trade warranty coming
Up on a month ago now and going to need to get a better one to meet the deal
Of this TV. Not sure what to do. I don't want to cancel and he ZT comes and is damaged and now I can't purchase a warranty for the VT60 again since it would be far past the 30 days I had the Tv. I'm not worried about a 1 year manufacturers warranty when there is no more out there and Panny doesn't seem to be doing much with repairs anyways
I'd buy a new 64" F8500 before I'd buy a used 60" ZT. Actually, I'd probably buy it over a new 60" ZT. The ZT is the better TV overall, but the F8500 is close enough--and in some respects better--even when the screen sizes are the same. A larger TV that's 95% of the way there for less money? That's a no brainer. Buy the F8500, pour yourself a scotch and just relax & enjoy the thing already.

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post #9016 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

You think I should still go ahead and get this? It's kind of assuring that I knows VT60 glass won't just fall off

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Grab the F8500.  If I didn't already have a ZT with no issues and had to make a choice between the ZT and the F8500, I'd go for the F8500.  Arguably, just as good a pic, brighter and no anxious anticipation of fan noise, fractures or separation.  Just my $.02.

I agree - Yes, please do yourself a tremendous favor and buy the Samsung - think what it would be like for years to come, the effect on your family life, career, etc. to be under all the stress you would be subjected to owning a ZT - what might be next - exploding sub-woofers?? Just waiting for the next revelation to occur is almost becoming to much to deal with! Just my $ .03.
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post #9017 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 07:22 AM
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Are you referring to LG? Samsung came in at around $8,000 and LG lowered their price to match them several weeks ago. I don't know what the street prices are now, but I do know that due to production limitations, the 55" new models from LG might reach $6,000 this coming year. As I understand it, one sheet of glass with the new printing devices coming on line can do six 55" panels per sheet. Anything bigger screen size will yield one panel per sheet. If that's correct information, it will be a bit longer before bigger panels can come down a significant amount.

Of course, clearance sales can result in artificial price structures that wouldn't be a true indicator for afford-ability coming sooner. I recall the the first DLP HD-RPTV I saw was a $13,000 52" Panasonic. At about the same time there was a $20K+ Mitsubishi but I never saw one until a few years later when one showed up at our Fry's store for around $1,000. The Panasonic dropped from $13K to $10k fairly soon, but a year later Samsung had one on the market for about $4,200. When Panasonic tried to match that price point, their sets developed major problems. I bought the third Samsung model produced by Samsung which went for about $2,800. By then Panasonic had dropped DLP.

I'm hoping for a similar pattern and time line from OLED, but I'm not counting on it. Based on the DLP time line above, that would be in about four years -- give or take a year. At my age it might be wishful thinking. rolleyes.gif

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/lg-cuts-price-of-55-inch-curved-oled-tv-in-half-still-not-that-affordable-1223354
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post #9020 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 08:34 AM
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I'm not clear on exactly what is happening with this corner gap or separation issue. I do not think it is a manufacturing variation or issue of fit, because people have examined their sets and had no problem, then they find one day that this separation has occurred. If it was a matter of fit of a solid sheet of glass, then the corner opposite from the one coming out would be going "in", but that is not the case. No, something is moving over time - bending or warping or separating. It looks like the top filter layer is coming away from the underlying "glass" layer, but none of the pictures show the underlying "glass". I put "glass" in scare quotes because I wonder if it is really glass. I was originally under the assumption that "one sheet of glass" implied the outer surface was glass and was bonded to the plasma panel, with the filter being a coating on the outer surface. Now it seems we have a plastic filter sheet bonded to an otherwise useless surface in front of the plasma panel. Perhaps the "glass" underneath is actually plastic as well, and we are dealing with two thin sheets of plastic bonded together. Plastic can warp and bend much more easily than glass, and perhaps this is what we are seeing, with or without actual separation of the layers. I don't know - I'm just guessing and trying to understand.

It seems that Panasonic could have avoided all this by just exposing the plasma panel and doing away with any surfaces in front of it. They created a performance issue and potential problems in exchange for a nicer appearance.
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post #9021 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

thank you - really puts the whole discussion in the proper perspective!

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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

All there is to know about the North American microfracture debacle so far (this feels like deja vu).

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Originally Posted by larrygeary View Post

I'm not clear on exactly what is happening with this corner gap or separation issue. I do not think it is a manufacturing variation or issue of fit, because people have examined their sets and had no problem, then they find one day that this separation has occurred. If it was a matter of fit of a solid sheet of glass, then the corner opposite from the one coming out would be going "in", but that is not the case. No, something is moving over time - bending or warping or separating. It looks like the top filter layer is coming away from the underlying "glass" layer, but none of the pictures show the underlying "glass". I put "glass" in scare quotes because I wonder if it is really glass. I was originally under the assumption that "one sheet of glass" implied the outer surface was glass and was bonded to the plasma panel, with the filter being a coating on the outer surface. Now it seems we have a plastic filter sheet bonded to an otherwise useless surface in front of the plasma panel. Perhaps the "glass" underneath is actually plastic as well, and we are dealing with two thin sheets of plastic bonded together. Plastic can warp and bend much more easily than glass, and perhaps this is what we are seeing, with or without actual separation of the layers. I don't know - I'm just guessing and trying to understand.

It seems that Panasonic could have avoided all this by just exposing the plasma panel and doing away with any surfaces in front of it. They created a performance issue and potential problems in exchange for a nicer appearance.

Not necessarily - depends on the size of the space and what the glass is resting on. If someone has a - gap (that bar is about a 1/16") over a 57" piece of glass the other side would not necessarily "bend in"

"If it was a matter of fit of a solid sheet of glass, then the corner opposite from the one coming out would be going "in""

Can't just expose a "plasma panel" must be covered (usually with glass)

You might find this interesting, http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/people_and_passion_2013/zt60.html the article by the Panasonic Engineers who created the ZT panel- I posted the other day since so many people (myself included) were making statements that were based on something they read in this thread. Imagine making in major decision solely based on what I read in the Official ZT60 Owners Thread!

Hope you and others find the article both useful and informative.

There is an old saying "if you look for something long enough and harder enough you might eventually find it even if it doesn't exist". Someone just posted (vinnie97 - see above) the real deal on the micro fractures (6) - most appear to be connect to the attachment of the rear cover/panel yet if you read this thread it appears that every other person who has a ZT has separating glass panels, micro fractures and fan noise that is the equivalent of a Boeing 747 taking off.

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post #9022 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 09:35 AM
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Took delivery of my NIB 60ZT60 yesterday from MDC. No issues and it's a May build. We now have our 55VT60 in our bedroom. WOW!!! We are set for a few years.


TC-P60ZT60 - Living Room

TC-P55VT60 -  Master

TC-P60GT50 - Office/Game Room

PS4 / PS3

Pioneer / JBL Sound System

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post #9023 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 09:37 AM
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Nice! 2 great sets in your home.
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Originally Posted by larrygeary View Post

I'm not clear on exactly what is happening with this corner gap or separation issue. I do not think it is a manufacturing variation or issue of fit, because people have examined their sets and had no problem, then they find one day that this separation has occurred. If it was a matter of fit of a solid sheet of glass, then the corner opposite from the one coming out would be going "in", but that is not the case. No, something is moving over time - bending or warping or separating. It looks like the top filter layer is coming away from the underlying "glass" layer, but none of the pictures show the underlying "glass". I put "glass" in scare quotes because I wonder if it is really glass. I was originally under the assumption that "one sheet of glass" implied the outer surface was glass and was bonded to the plasma panel, with the filter being a coating on the outer surface. Now it seems we have a plastic filter sheet bonded to an otherwise useless surface in front of the plasma panel. Perhaps the "glass" underneath is actually plastic as well, and we are dealing with two thin sheets of plastic bonded together. Plastic can warp and bend much more easily than glass, and perhaps this is what we are seeing, with or without actual separation of the layers. I don't know - I'm just guessing and trying to understand.

It seems that Panasonic could have avoided all this by just exposing the plasma panel and doing away with any surfaces in front of it. They created a performance issue and potential problems in exchange for a nicer appearance.

You see, that thin black strip between the upper glass panel and the silver bezel isn't the underlying panel. It is some sort of glue/foam! This is where the separation occures. Well, we all know that glue is sensitive to extreme temperatures. Thermal-cycling / thermal-stress is very likely the cause of all this. That's my guess at least.
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post #9025 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post



There is an old saying "if you look for something long enough and harder enough for something you might eventually find it even if it doesn't exist". Someone just posted (vinnie97 - see above) the real deal on the micro fractures (6) - most appear to be connect to the attachment of the rear cover/panel yet if you read this thread it appears that every other person who has a ZT has separating glass panels, micro fractures and fan noise that is the equivalent of a Boeing 747 taking off.

I agree with this. I was going to get my fan quieted because it looks like an easy fix if done correctly. If the fan never gets quieted any further it really isn't even an issue. At normal sound levels it can't be heard.

When I purchased my panel it was a floor display with 335 hours on it. I don't remember looking at every detail as closely as some do on here. Many of the "glass separation" photos I see on here look pretty normal to me. Then you see some people actually pressing on the panel etc... I realize for many of us this is a large investment in technology, however nothing will be without some flaws be it engineering or otherwise. The bottom line to me was this set had the best picture of any television I have ever seen or owned for the price. I saw it almost directly next to the F8500 and appreciated its cinema like quality and black levels over the incredible light output of the Sammy. IMO Even with it's supposed flaws, the ZT60 is an incredible piece of home theatre engineering.
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post #9026 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Zoetrope View Post

You see, that thin black strip between the upper glass panel and the silver bezel isn't the underlying panel. It is some sort of glue/foam! This is where the separation occures. Well, we all know that glue is sensitive to extreme temperatures. Thermal-cycling / thermal-stress is very likely the cause of all this. That's my guess at least.

Yes, I know there is foam there. So suppose the top filter layer is 1" larger all around than the surface it is bonded to. The 1" outer edge of the filter rests on foam. The filter warps up at the corner, exposing the foam which expands and hides the surface to which the filter is bonded. There may or may not be separation occurring - we can't see it because the foam is in the way. Perhaps the filter is just curving up at the edge with no breaking of the bond. But why would it always bend up, not down? Without construction details we can only guess.
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post #9027 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by larrygeary View Post

Yes, I know there is foam there. So suppose the top filter layer is 1" larger all around than the surface it is bonded to. The 1" outer edge of the filter rests on foam. The filter warps up at the corner, exposing the foam which expands and hides the surface to which the filter is bonded. There may or may not be separation occurring - we can't see it because the foam is in the way. Perhaps the filter is just curving up at the edge with no breaking of the bond. But why would it always bend up, not down? Without construction details we can only guess.

Yes. This.
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post #9028 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoooth View Post

I agree with this. I was going to get my fan quieted because it looks like an easy fix if done correctly. If the fan never gets quieted any further it really isn't even an issue. At normal sound levels it can't be heard.

When I purchased my panel it was a floor display with 335 hours on it. I don't remember looking at every detail as closely as some do on here. Many of the "glass separation" photos I see on here look pretty normal to me. Then you see some people actually pressing on the panel etc... I realize for many of us this is a large investment in technology, however nothing will be without some flaws be it engineering or otherwise. The bottom line to me was this set had the best picture of any television I have ever seen or owned for the price. I saw it almost directly next to the F8500 and appreciated its cinema like quality and black levels over the incredible light output of the Sammy. IMO Even with it's supposed flaws, the ZT60 is an incredible piece of home theatre engineering.

Totally agree - have had my ZT for 4 months and every night it sit there and watch it and find it hard to believe what an amazing piece of equipment it is - I trade up from a Samsung PN63C7000 which was a "Top Pick" back in 2010 and there is no comparison - none - Zero.

The ZT is that much better in every way - yet when you read the thread all you here are complaints about everything - Amazing!
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post #9029 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 10:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

I predict you will go back and forth on your decision another 40 times before something finally arrives at your house.

You thought that Panasonic sabotaged your black levels on your VT60 because they built it in October and they employee's were mad about losing their job so took it out on your panel. You were worried that the stand was not built strong enough to hold the TV up and will one day just crumble or how do we know a wall mount is able to hold this TV. It was one thing after another. Once something was settled in your mind you found something else to obsess over.

So based on this, I cannot believe you are buying a used TV. If you think Panasonic employee's didn't care on how they built your TV now you are going to buy a TV that not only was sabotaged by Panasonic employee's but who knows that the person who owned this TV did to it. Then what about how they packed it up or treated it once they new they were not going to keep it? Then the extra movement from the shipping company. Do you seriously think that you won't find anything wrong with a used ZT60? Do you think that every time you find something new to obsess over it won't run through your mind on how the previous owner treated the TV?

Then moving onto Paul's. Do you think it is a good idea based on the type of person you are to order a TV from a store that you can't just return the TV to for free after you find 20 made up things wrong with it?

Get a new F8500, suck up the lesser blacks although according to you the blacks on your VT60 are defective so the F8500 blacks should actually be an improvement and buy a new TV. You have already been through 2 VT60's, do you really think a used ZT60 is the answer to your problems?

Anyway, that is my honest opinion with no sugar coating. I am out of this one so good luck with whatever decision you make.

If it is a ZT60, good luck to everyone in this thread because you will need it. You might want to have a drink before entering this thread.

If you get an F8500, well the guys in that thread deserve what they will get. lol
You make many good points. However, what if he gets the F8500 and is even more dissatisfied with the blacks? wink.gif We're talking about a unique character here, an extreme OCD type upgrading from a plasma with arguably the best blacks money could buy (short of the monitors). Every path forward is wrought with many potential potholes.
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post #9030 of 12664 Old 02-12-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

You make many good points. However, what if he gets the F8500 and is even more dissatisfied with the blacks? wink.gif We're talking about a unique character here, an extreme OCD type upgrading from a plasma with arguably the best blacks money could buy (short of the monitors). Every path forward is wrought with many potential potholes.

Didn't the "experts" (D-Nice, et al) say that the black levels were equal between the 8500/VT/ZT, at the VE Shootout last year?
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