Official ZT60 Owners Thread - Page 307 - AVS Forum
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post #9181 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by GC3 View Post

I see...owning a PDP equates to being a NASCAR driver...

...the things I didn't know...

You asked about black levels and the point. The things you don't know....
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post #9182 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 01:31 PM
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Just picked up my 60zt60 from amazon. Shipping guy said 5 just came in on a pallet. Mine is a May build date. Will fire it up tonight. Woohoo!
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post #9183 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

Funny I was also watching Riddick last night using the Darbee in the new Oppo103d - PQ was awesome - movie so-so.

Best Riddick movie was the first "PITCH BLACK" have it on an HDDVD.

What do you think of the darbee? I have a 97 Oppo and I'm curious about the enhancement.
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post #9184 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by synaptech View Post

What do you think of the darbee? I have a 97 Oppo and I'm curious about the enhancement.

Like it - they make the best players - here is the Sound& Vision review that came out yesterday - the improvements are subtle but obvious. I think the best way to put it is that it isn't cheap but if you need a new blu-ray - go for it.

If you have a few extra $$$ and want to keep up with the best - buy it!

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/oppo-bdp-103d-blu-ray-3d-player

PS: It's Pandora App is like none I have every seen - love it - better control then I was getting thru my Onkyo TX-NR809.

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post #9185 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:11 PM
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Seems like the Darbee works by adding contrast that just isn't there in the original signal, therefore in some cases you will be crushing shadow detail. So in some sense you are dealing with processing that may very well look better, but is not accurate to the source. Is this a fair assessment?
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post #9186 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post

Seems like the Darbee works by adding contrast that just isn't there in the original signal, therefore in some cases you will be crushing shadow detail. So in some sense you are dealing with processing that may very well look better, but is not accurate to the source. Is this a fair assessment?

No according to the experts - go to the website and read the reviews http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/blu-ray-BDP-103D-Overview.aspx

I started following this when the Darbee Darblet first came out and got rave reviews everywhere - when Oppo added it you know it is the best - also has no effect on calibrated panels

http://hdguru.com/oppo-bdp-103d-blu-ray-player-review/

http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-and-dvd-player-reviews/oppo-bdp-103d-darbee-visual-presence

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post #9187 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

No according to the experts - go to the website and read the reviews http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/blu-ray-BDP-103D-Overview.aspx

I started following this when the Darbee Darblet first came out and got rave reviews everywhere - when Oppo added it you know it is the best - also has no effect on calibrated panels

http://hdguru.com/oppo-bdp-103d-blu-ray-player-review/

http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-and-dvd-player-reviews/oppo-bdp-103d-darbee-visual-presence

Thanks Bob. I think the reviews confirm exactly what I was thinking. The images may look subjectively better, but since the darbee is performing processing, by it's very nature it's not accurate to the source. You have to use your own eyes to determine whether the effect is too artificial to you or not. The key seems to be tuning the Darbee to a lower setting so it doesn't increase the contrast so much that you are crushing shadow detail.

For example, see HD Guru:
Quote:
The DarbeeVision Visual Presence technology found in the DVP 5000 uses a custom algorithm that analyzes digital images, detecting areas with dark/light transitions, and selectively altering the luminance of specific pixels to create an enhanced sense of visual depth.
* * * *
Other reviews I’d read of the DVP 5000 suggested that it worked best with Blu-ray, and worst with lower-rez sources like cable and DVD, but my experience turned out to be the opposite. With the DVP 5000 set to 50% in High Def mode, its processing made the already craggy, pockmarked face of the doctor who reconstructs Leeloo in The Fifth Element on Blu-ray look like that of a dried-out, leathery bogman. True, it enhanced details, but the effect here was simply too much. Dialing the level down to 10% made things look more natural, but there also wasn’t much of a difference to be seen at this point between the Darbee’d and non-Darbee’d image.

High-def digest:
Quote:
With that said, after finding the right compromise and settling in with the Darblet for a few weeks, I have to say that I’m now a believer. What works for me is the “Hi Def” mode at 45%. (Different equipment may result in different optimal settings.) Depending on the quality of the input signal, I could probably go a little higher than that on some content, but the higher settings are usually too aggressive and harsh-looking, and the “Gaming” and “Full Pop” modes crush some shadow detail. I’ve found that Hi Def 45% is a sweet spot that works for everything.

Anyway, looks like there is plenty of reading on this elsewhere on AVS forum, sorry to get us off topic! Those looking for side by side screenshots of what the Darbee does, please visit this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1399154/darbee-vision-darblet
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post #9188 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:32 PM
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I am not sold on the whole Darbee thing. That is all. wink.gif
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post #9189 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

I am not sold on the whole Darbee thing. That is all. wink.gif

I have one, I think it does something, but at the same time I think it introduces input lag.
Mo!
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post #9190 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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This thread is never ending! Don't you guys spend any time enjoying your beautiful monitors? wink.gif
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post #9191 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post

Thanks Bob. I think the reviews confirm exactly what I was thinking. The images may look subjectively better, but since the darbee is performing processing, by it's very nature it's not accurate to the source. You have to use your own eyes to determine whether the effect is too artificial to you or not. The key seems to be tuning the Darbee to a lower setting so it doesn't increase the contrast so much that you are crushing shadow detail.

For example, see HD Guru:
High-def digest:
Anyway, looks like there is plenty of reading on this elsewhere on AVS forum, sorry to get us off topic! Those looking for side by side screenshots of what the Darbee does, please visit this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1399154/darbee-vision-darblet

Excellent observations but some folks say it is "accurate to the source" but you are also right, doing anything to a source changes the source - someone else might say cleaning up a dirty painting does change the painting, others folks might say it doesn't change it just improves what already exists. But now we are staring to sound like philosophers!!!smile.gif

My own experience, and I don't vaguely resemble an expert, just enthusiast:

On lower settings (35-40%) it just gives the picture some "pop" almost like going from a lower quality signal to a higher quality signal - doesn't really change the image - NOW crank-up the settings and you see artifacts and it looks artificial. We all have ZT's and that unto itself says we want to maximize our viewing experience. Whether the Darbee adds or detracts from the experience is in the eye of the beholder - for me $600.00 well spent

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post #9192 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewread View Post

This thread is never ending! Don't you guys spend any time enjoying your beautiful monitors? wink.gif

Your right but we just had to take a break from noisy fans, micro fractures and falling off front glass panels:eek.gif
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post #9193 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Agreed. Afterr viewing Avatar on the ZT60 at BB then see in it at home (yes I was wrong all along) it was practically identical BUT you can see where the gapless design and the filter becomes slightly superior on the ZT.

I unhooked my TV completely let it reset then replugfed it back in. Used my fathers Samsung blu ray player and popped in Avatar...the scene I watched at BB that had my jaw on the floor was the space scene in the beginning of Avatar where he introduces the planet...it literally looked like half the screen was painted with ink. It was noooice!! So me thinking that everything is wrong on my VT...ready!!! Was wrong. After hooking up the Sammy blu ray player (Black Friday deal for 50$ from 130$ I think) to my VT60...boom saw exactly what I saw at BB on their 65zt60. I can't remember if the ZT was 96hz at 24p but it was set to THX Cinema without adjusting anything so I reset THX Cin on my VT60 to match the ZT settings and Walah! Those nice inky blacks I saw at BB are now in my home but on my VT!!! Thank god it was the source. So now time to pick up a great blu rAy player but obviously at a cheaper price. Idk maybe my PS3 slim is buggy but it doesn't do what I just saw.

Also the "line issue I was having on the left side of the screen is now practically gone. I also changed my HDMI cable I think the Monoprice one might be the only defective thing I have now.

Anyway I also switched to THX bright on the ZT and black were still incredible...did that on the VT still very inky.

I am now a very very happy man. No more hassle now just time to enjoy. And I do believe if the VT was made gapless and kept the same filter it would exhibit the same results. With the lights dim they are the same with the VT being a little brighter and exhibiting a slight but more detail IMO because at times I felt the ZT was too dark so I can see where the man cave comes in handy big time as well as moderate lighting. Do they have the same blacks?? I would technically say no but the ZT is only a hair better IMO and I believe a lot obviously has to do with the gapless design and filter on the ZT. But also with great advances comes some risks and if rather keep my VT than chance the ZT especially if it's used. And a new one would be great but not at the premium crazy pricing it has now. And if I did do that I would lose out on Amazon giving me a crazy discount making my (when ordered) NIB 65VT60 from 2200$ bargain price then with the price match down to 1999$ and partial refund..brings it to a total of 1699$. So I guess I really should app complaining when I got the 65" for the same price the 55" was when it was on sale.

Overall yes I wouldn't mind those extremely dark blacks but at times, for me, found it too dark in some areas. VT60 is now IMO the perfect balance for those who like a little bit brighter picture with extremely great black levels, and great everything else. I look at the Vt60 as either on par with a 5020 or just slightly above it.

That gapless is quite amazing (no Seperation or fracture btw on the ZT best buy had) you can see where OLED is truly going to shine but honestly I would take a ZT over an OLED anyday. Just something about plasma.

So my sincerest apologies to everyone. And thank you.

Now time for a blu ray player suggestion...heard the Sonys are great. I'm not looking for anything crazy pricey but reasonable yet great. (Have got to pic up Gravity!!)

Also how come with the Sammy blu ray it won't allow me to change from 60hz to 96hz (which I also forgot to mention I am only in 60hz right now and I know
96hz gets a little darker black level. Also the player doesn't seem to be doing 24p either. Still looks great but idk why maybe it doesn't support it.

In all honesty, you really need some intervention that you cannot get by posting senseless stuff over and over again. This hobby is not healthy for you, and AVS is not a good outlet. I think I speak for many people here, so PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS already.

Sorry, back to whose got the best black levels and the least amount of panel gaps rolleyes.gif
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post #9194 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 03:43 PM
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With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?
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post #9195 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?

Correct




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post #9196 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 03:54 PM
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Watched Avengers today with 103d and let me say that my zt60 never looked soooo good. .

It is a very subtle difference in PM but I fo see the difference at about 35 to 50....cranked it up to 60 and pq got crazy looking....
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post #9197 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?

I don't necessarily agree with that - the term "big" is very subjective - read the reviews and everyone agrees it has an effect on any source - nearly all the reviewers agree that the effect, in moderation (Darbee setting of 35 to 50) "enhances" (or what ever term you are comfortable with) the image. Have your read the Sound&Vision review released the other day? If you are really interested you should read that and some of the other reviews in prior posts

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post #9198 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

I don't necessarily agree with that - the term "big" is very subjective - read the reviews and everyone agrees it has an effect on any source - nearly all the reviewers agree that the effect, in moderation (Darbee setting of 35 to 50) "enhances" (or what ever term you are comfortable with) the image. Have your read the Sound&Vision review released the other day? If you are really interested you should read that and some of the other reviews in prior posts

Interesting - I thought that only had an effect on non 1080p material.
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post #9199 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Correct

So does that also mean that with regards to jaggie elimination, noise reduction, detail, motion adaptive processing, and moire pattern detection and elimination, etc., all players are on equal footing?
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The coating on plasma screens is extremely finicky. For this reason, I avoid using liquid on the screens, sticking instead to a dry microfiber cloth (it's fibers are capable of lifting fingerprint oils). I would probably try plain water with a microfiber cloth.

I use micro fiber with a tad of distiller water.
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post #9201 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by colnago View Post


So does that also mean that with regards to jaggie elimination, noise reduction, detail, motion adaptive processing, and moire pattern detection and elimination, etc., all players are on equal footing?

In my opinion you will be very hard pressed to notice a PQ difference on BD material all things being equal




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post #9202 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?
The long term volunteer OPPO beta testers routinely point out to people that there is no theoretical difference playing a 2D Blu-ray on an OPPO or on any other less expensive player. They also point out that it's possible that a manufacturer can screw up which would cause differences in Blu-ray picture quality. They maintain that most people buy OPPO players for many other reasons than the OPPO Blu-ray performance which is excellent..

As near as I can tell they take the position that using Darbee, either external or internal, is a matter of personal preference. I know that UMR bought a Darbee, tried it, and could see no reason to continue using it. That would be his personal preference as a well known professional calibrator. I have an OPPO 93 and haven't been tempted to upgrade or add an external OPPO. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't like Darbee if I had it. Enjoy. smile.gif
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post #9203 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colnago View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Correct

So does that also mean that with regards to jaggie elimination, noise reduction, detail, motion adaptive processing, and moire pattern detection and elimination, etc., all players are on equal footing?
Most people in OPPO threads and else where here at AVS turn all those "enhancement features" off as a given. wink.gif
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post #9204 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

With all this talk about the Oppo players I wanted to confirm my understanding that when talking a blu ray source there isn't any big difference in PQ. Is that right?

I don't necessarily agree with that - the term "big" is very subjective - read the reviews and everyone agrees it has an effect on any source - nearly all the reviewers agree that the effect, in moderation (Darbee setting of 35 to 50) "enhances" (or what ever term you are comfortable with) the image. Have your read the Sound&Vision review released the other day? If you are really interested you should read that and some of the other reviews in prior posts
Bob, am I right that you're talking about using Darbee and mjodotcom is asking about picture quality among Blu-ray players in general. At least he doesn't mention Darbee in his question.
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post #9205 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Bob, am I right that you're talking about using Darbee and mjodotcom is asking about picture quality among Blu-ray players in general. At least he doesn't mention Darbee in his question.

I read it to say that he is referencing the Oppo bluray player and asking/stating that darbee has no impact on that bluray player - that is incorrect - the darbee can be used on any video signal, including its internal bluray player that is input and then sent out thru the HDMI 1 OUT to an AVR or ZT

Note: Reread again - you might be right - the discussion had focused on darbee but mojodotcom statement might be generic - but as you noted above Oppo's have historically produced the most "error-free, accurate" PQ

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post #9206 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by synaptech View Post

What do you think of the darbee? I have a 97 Oppo and I'm curious about the enhancement.

Having owned the Darbee stand alone unit I can tell you that it will depend on your personal taste. It applies a distinct unsharp mask effect if you are familiar with any graphics language. It makes the picture hyper detailed and makes some additional impact on the contrast level. Some people really like it. Others think it looks artificial and overdone.

It's really personal preference. Personally being in the graphics profession I fell into the latter category and returned it after about two weeks.

You will only really know if you try it. Some compare the Darbee to Vivid Mode.

In my case my pre-pro has a high quality scaler and does some other nice stuff to the picture. So I think someone without such an advantage between the source and display will be able to appreciate it more than I did.

So bottom line is it's personal preference and you will either like it or dislike it.

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post #9207 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 05:29 PM
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The long term volunteer OPPO beta testers routinely point out to people that there is no theoretical difference playing a 2D Blu-ray on an OPPO or on any other less expensive player. They also point out that it's possible that a manufacturer can screw up which would cause differences in Blu-ray picture quality. They maintain that most people buy OPPO players for many reasons than the OPPO Blu-ray performance which is excellent..

As near as I can tell they take the position that using Darbee, either external or internal, is a matter of personal preference. I know that UMR bought a Darbee, tried it, and could see no reason to continue using it. That would be his personal preference as a well known professional calibrator. I have an OPPO 93 and haven't been tempted to upgrade or add an external OPPO. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't like Darbee if I had it. Enjoy. smile.gif

UMR and me are on the same page about the darbee. All you have to do is run the S&M disc and you will clearly see that the darbee is affecting the chroma in a not so good way.
Anyway its all about your video source material and how well your ZT/VT60's are calibrated.

ss
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post #9208 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 05:43 PM
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Wrong but then it is hard to accept that the old king has moved on and a new king has taken the throne - "The king is dead - Long live the king"

From CNET and confirmed by all the other major reviewers - The ZT is now the benchmark against which all others will be measured.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p60zt60/4505-6482_7-35567247.html

"Let me get this out of the way first: Panasonic's TC-PZT60 is now the best-performing TV we've ever reviewed. Perhaps a few of the old, supertweaked Pioneer Kuros out there might deliver slightly superior black levels, but I've never had any of those in the lab. This one beats my in-house Kuro, and every other TV in my lab. Finally. The TC-PVT60 also beat our in-house Kuro, so the most important question for videophiles with money to burn becomes"

Yes that is until OLED flat panels are available biggrin.gif
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post #9209 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

UMR and me are on the same page about the darbee. All you have to do is run the S&M disc and you will clearly see that the darbee is affecting the chroma in a not so good way.
Anyway its all about your video source material and how well your ZT/VT60's are calibrated.

ss

I bet most calibrators feel the same way. I know Chad B does not care much for what it does.




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post #9210 of 13076 Old 02-13-2014, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

UMR and me are on the same page about the darbee. All you have to do is run the S&M disc and you will clearly see that the darbee is affecting the chroma in a not so good way.
Anyway its all about your video source material and how well your ZT/VT60's are calibrated.

ss
And this what I think is at the heart of the discussion - many of these folks have a far more educated eye then I do as many audiophiles have a far more educated ear then I do - they are in a different league then I am and I accept I will never get there.

I bought the Oppo 103D because I want to maximize my 65ZT60 experience and what I read was all fairly positive - fortunately if I didn't like I could turn it off and would still be left with a top rated bluray player.

To my uneducated eye (and I am not being sarcastic) it just looks better, more "pop" and to me money well spent. But then again I am also happy with the THX cinema mode and using the CNET & Sound&Vision settings in professional 1&2.

What I really enjoy about these forums is learning from people who are far more knowledgeable then I am.

Thank you all
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