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post #12241 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 12:15 AM
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i have an 8th gen Kuro that has done me well for 6 years now. when i heard that panasonic was not going to make plasmas anymore it made me sad. i just can't stand LCD/LED. i went looking at a ZT but couldn't buy one because the silver bezel was too distracting... like a white halo around the picture.

this was a few months ago. then last week i heard samsung was stopping making plasmas as well. so i figured i had to get a new TV. i couldn't deal with the ZTs silver bezel (or so i thought), so i picked up an F8500 last week.

well, the picture quality was gorgeous, and the f8500 bezel fades away in the dark... it was so bright (too bright for my tastes) and the level of detail was outstanding... but there was just something odd about how it processed video-- even with all motion enhancement/judder crap turned off. like it was adding frames or something, that made all video seem really unnatural looking when people moved around on screen. not to mention it buzzed like crazy (which i could live with, since my kuro buzzed too). it's a great TV, but there was just something off about the motion processing it that just didn't sit right.

i couldn't deal with with it, so i said F it and exchanged it for a ZT instead... i got the last one this large national chain had in stock, amazingly enough!

well, the ZT bezel totally fades away in the dark and is a total non-issue! no buzzing... this ZT is like a kuro on steroids! honestly, this thing is 99% perfect. couldn't be happier. used CNETs calibration settings and have just been so satisfied all night watching... the black is so dark it fades into the wall... just unbelievable.

so happy i made the switch, 110% satisfied!
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post #12242 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antennahead View Post
I assumed based on your avatar that you might be sympathetic to my Velocity channel dilemma
You mentioned being gentle for the first 200 hours then only in the last month or two usuing it normally. I was very careful as well, then went to normal use, and between approximately 200 to 1200 hours had no issues. It was after I reached that many hours that the IR showed up. I had heard of this from other members, but honestly shrugged it off as an anomaly. It just didn't fit conventional thinking that it would be fine past break-in for that many hours THEN develop an IR issue.......... WRONG I can say that after the Velocity incident, by avoiding prolonged daily viewing of the channels with solid logos, I have avoided any other IR incidents. I also run the screen wipe about once a week for good measure, as well as the pixel flipper. My image retained "V" has faded so much now that you have to really look hard for it on a solid light colored background to see it. I'm hoping over time as the phosphors continue to age that the set becomes less and less prone to IR. It is still the best picture available IMO.
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Originally Posted by antennahead View Post
This is why I refuse to watch anymore Velocity channel on this TV. I have the "V" IR almost gone, just barely visible if you know it's there and where to look. I'm scared if I go back to that channel for any length of time I'll bring back the IR quickly
Hi,
I completely agree about the seemingly randomness of IR manifesting.
A year prior to purchasing the 65ZT, I purchased a 60GT50.

Much like the ZT, I followed the CW vis a vis break in and the entire duration of it being in my HT with no IR.
Back then, the amount of hours the bloody thing was on is silly. Prolly 18 hours a day with no concerns of station logos. The ticker on ESPN? Hells no, but beyond that fairly open usage.

In February, I finally got around to connecting the now MBR GT50 to my wireless network. Due to the silly length of said password, it did take a hot minute to connect, but still under 5 mins.

Regardless, after connecting I saw IR for the first time ever on either display. With WEP-AESII passwords being silly long, all those letters and numbers were visible. Thankfully, it has since dissipated and have not experienced any further instances of IR.

With the GT, I have the Best Buy PSP as it is one of the only that covers IR/Burn In. Especially prior to the cancellation, I played much Dorko 4 and other games again to no ill effect.
Unfortunately, between knowing that the ZT would be irreplaceable and BB wanting something like 4 times what I paid for the GT's PSP (I think it is 4yrs past MW) whilst only covering 3 years.
Needless to say I passed on the PSP this time.

I bring some of this up as I had kicked around the idea of placing the GT in the HT due to it being covered for IR, but then I kicked my own self in the arse.

Simply, I had become so hyper vigilant to the spectre of burn in that I really was not enjoying using it and worse the people I that both love and care enough to have in my home were afraid to change a bloody channel!

Since then, while still somewhat cautious, no longer will I view a stupid TV in almost total fear.
Not watching Velocity on this TV is a crime. It is some exceptional looking car porn!
Best,
AD
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post #12243 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by stile View Post
i have an 8th gen Kuro that has done me well for 6 years now. when i heard that panasonic was not going to make plasmas anymore it made me sad. i just can't stand LCD/LED. i went looking at a ZT but couldn't buy one because the silver bezel was too distracting... like a white halo around the picture.

this was a few months ago. then last week i heard samsung was stopping making plasmas as well. so i figured i had to get a new TV. i couldn't deal with the ZTs silver bezel (or so i thought), so i picked up an F8500 last week.

well, the picture quality was gorgeous, and the f8500 bezel fades away in the dark... it was so bright (too bright for my tastes) and the level of detail was outstanding... but there was just something odd about how it processed video-- even with all motion enhancement/judder crap turned off. like it was adding frames or something, that made all video seem really unnatural looking when people moved around on screen. not to mention it buzzed like crazy (which i could live with, since my kuro buzzed too). it's a great TV, but there was just something off about the motion processing it that just didn't sit right.

i couldn't deal with with it, so i said F it and exchanged it for a ZT instead... i got the last one this large national chain had in stock, amazingly enough!

well, the ZT bezel totally fades away in the dark and is a total non-issue! no buzzing... this ZT is like a kuro on steroids! honestly, this thing is 99% perfect. couldn't be happier. used CNETs calibration settings and have just been so satisfied all night watching... the black is so dark it fades into the wall... just unbelievable.

so happy i made the switch, 110% satisfied!

Congrat's on the new ZT. Glad to hear you are enjoying it!

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post #12244 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 06:32 AM
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Well I just past the one year mark with my ZT. So far I'm still enjoying all it has to offer. Have seen all this talk lately about IR. Been watching it too much to pay attention, but since I wanted to see how many hours we've put on it I checked IR. At 3097 hours I still do have the channel 4 logo very faint bottom right of screen and they have moved their logo over about an 2 inches so a new one is showing slightly. It is not noticeable on any content and we vary our content between games, Tv, and movies.

I think I would like to look into getting this TV calibrated and see what everyone is talking about. I've never had one done except what I tried with the Disney WOW disc.

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post #12245 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stile View Post
i have an 8th gen Kuro that has done me well for 6 years now. when i heard that panasonic was not going to make plasmas anymore it made me sad. i just can't stand LCD/LED. i went looking at a ZT but couldn't buy one because the silver bezel was too distracting... like a white halo around the picture.

this was a few months ago. then last week i heard samsung was stopping making plasmas as well. so i figured i had to get a new TV. i couldn't deal with the ZTs silver bezel (or so i thought), so i picked up an F8500 last week.

well, the picture quality was gorgeous, and the f8500 bezel fades away in the dark... it was so bright (too bright for my tastes) and the level of detail was outstanding... but there was just something odd about how it processed video-- even with all motion enhancement/judder crap turned off. like it was adding frames or something, that made all video seem really unnatural looking when people moved around on screen. not to mention it buzzed like crazy (which i could live with, since my kuro buzzed too). it's a great TV, but there was just something off about the motion processing it that just didn't sit right.

i couldn't deal with with it, so i said F it and exchanged it for a ZT instead... i got the last one this large national chain had in stock, amazingly enough!

well, the ZT bezel totally fades away in the dark and is a total non-issue! no buzzing... this ZT is like a kuro on steroids! honestly, this thing is 99% perfect. couldn't be happier. used CNETs calibration settings and have just been so satisfied all night watching... the black is so dark it fades into the wall... just unbelievable.

so happy i made the switch, 110% satisfied!

I would have preferred an all black bezel as well. You could always put black tape over the silver bit of course. That's what I used to do with the surround for my projector. Or you could use the treatment I gave one of my cars that had some odd chrome trim that I wanted black. I used a glass fibre abrasive rubbing down stick to give a key and painted it with matt black Humbrol. The stuff you buy in model shops. That was still on the car after 20 years of sitting outside.


I find the picture when the screen on so hypnotic that I never remember about the bezel though and in the dark corner position that I have the ZT in doesn't really pick up the light when it's not on.
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post #12246 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post
Hi,
I completely agree about the seemingly randomness of IR manifesting.
A year prior to purchasing the 65ZT, I purchased a 60GT50.

Much like the ZT, I followed the CW vis a vis break in and the entire duration of it being in my HT with no IR.
Back then, the amount of hours the bloody thing was on is silly. Prolly 18 hours a day with no concerns of station logos. The ticker on ESPN? Hells no, but beyond that fairly open usage.

In February, I finally got around to connecting the now MBR GT50 to my wireless network. Due to the silly length of said password, it did take a hot minute to connect, but still under 5 mins.

Regardless, after connecting I saw IR for the first time ever on either display. With WEP-AESII passwords being silly long, all those letters and numbers were visible. Thankfully, it has since dissipated and have not experienced any further instances of IR.

With the GT, I have the Best Buy PSP as it is one of the only that covers IR/Burn In. Especially prior to the cancellation, I played much Dorko 4 and other games again to no ill effect.
Unfortunately, between knowing that the ZT would be irreplaceable and BB wanting something like 4 times what I paid for the GT's PSP (I think it is 4yrs past MW) whilst only covering 3 years.
Needless to say I passed on the PSP this time.

I bring some of this up as I had kicked around the idea of placing the GT in the HT due to it being covered for IR, but then I kicked my own self in the arse.

Simply, I had become so hyper vigilant to the spectre of burn in that I really was not enjoying using it and worse the people I that both love and care enough to have in my home were afraid to change a bloody channel!

Since then, while still somewhat cautious, no longer will I view a stupid TV in almost total fear.
Not watching Velocity on this TV is a crime. It is some exceptional looking car porn!
Best,
AD
I hate not watching Velocity on my ZT also, but I do watch it on the bedroom Kuro I'm hoping that if in time, the last bit of "V" IR fades, I can go back to watching some Velocity on this set.......... just not placing the channel on all day..... day after day...... even as background if I'm doing other things around the house....... that's what I think caused my issue
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post #12247 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 09:29 AM
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tdallen - Check your Picture Settings. Motion Smoother should be set to OFF.
Thanks Beetulz, looks like that did it. I'm already set that way for other inputs, but wasn't remembering to check again during Netflix playback as a separate input.
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post #12248 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 11:42 AM
 
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Well, as for me, high-def content still looks too amazing to dump, so I'll just "suffer" through it. When an OLED comes along, larger in size, with decent motion resolution (closer to 1080p than 600p), and at an affordable price, I suspect the ZT will find its way onto the classifieds. That is still another year a way at the earliest.
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post #12249 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 02:36 PM
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Is the motion really that poor ? Is so that's too bad, I am sure there is a breakthrough right around the corner for that.

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post #12250 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 03:56 PM
 
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Well, the LG is restricted to a max of 600p motion resolution, so that will create some inherent blur. It's mostly masked by, I would wager, the 1) faster OLED pixel response time and 2) infinite CR. A higher refresh rate for gen 2 and more brightness would give them more motion rez mitigation options (like black frame insertion, akin to what the Samsung OLED implements). In a little over a month, we'll see what kind of progress they've made (at the shootout).

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post #12251 of 12764 Old 07-11-2014, 05:55 PM
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I have always wondered why color filters were not used on plasma, xrox once mentioned something about conversion phosphors which change to any wavelength but filters would work just the same, with the rise and fall time of some phosphors being almost instantaneous all known motion artifacts you can think of would be eliminated (DFC, rainbows, trails) and with the latest addressing techniques you could easily push enough samples to replicate real life
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post #12252 of 12764 Old 07-13-2014, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by discone View Post
Well I just past the one year mark with my ZT. So far I'm still enjoying all it has to offer. Have seen all this talk lately about IR. Been watching it too much to pay attention, but since I wanted to see how many hours we've put on it I checked IR. At 3097 hours I still do have the channel 4 logo very faint bottom right of screen and they have moved their logo over about an 2 inches so a new one is showing slightly. It is not noticeable on any content and we vary our content between games, Tv, and movies.

I think I would like to look into getting this TV calibrated and see what everyone is talking about. I've never had one done except what I tried with the Disney WOW disc.
Have owned the 60" zt60 since March and have at least 1000 hours. My father-in-law also bought a 55" VT60. Prior to this I used a 50" Kuro. I will say the panny is much more IR prone but seems random. Video games has not been a huge problem although the xbox one logo will appear for about 30 seconds after boot up (it is front and center on bootup and stays there about 20 seconds and is surrounded by nothing but green). We watched a world cup match on the VT60 a few weeks ago and after the match the white from the score box actually took much longer to get rid of (was very clear for a few hours) which makes me a bit concerned to watch the final today. I can only conclude that this set doesn't really have IR unless its a bright white surrounded by a uniform color of something else. Just this morning, I was using apple TV (Love that it auto slides after a few minutes of being idle) and had the search function up (has an alphabet) and saw the letters show up on a show I was watching. Again, only for a few minutes but, what the hell. And yet, I can play Titanfall or Watchdogs for hours and no issue from their HUDs. Overall I love the set and wish I could have found a 65" before they were all sold out but get concerned that a few years from now I'll be hankering to dump this TV if Panny has improved image quality, color, and motion on their new LEDs.

Meanwhile the Kuro has been basically been completely IR resistant. I've owned that since 2009 and I would leave images paused for an hour, I've left a blu-ray menu screen playing all night, etc and never an issue.
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post #12253 of 12764 Old 07-13-2014, 10:32 AM
 
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Why only consider LCD in the future unless you're brand-agnostic?
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post #12254 of 12764 Old 07-13-2014, 08:39 PM
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Not brand agnostic. Just giving up hope on OLED being a viable technology. I've been waiting years for it and my assumption is nobody cares about OLED but a select few that can't support the market. The only reason I even bought the zt60 was seeing OLED's lack of progress. If there were 65" OLEDs this year at $7K, I would have held onto the hope and then probably purchased one in two years when there was a 4K set at $5K.

Watched the final today with extra time and not a hint of IR. So odd what my TV decides to show as IR and what it just gets through.
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post #12255 of 12764 Old 07-13-2014, 09:44 PM
 
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I'd say it's premature to give up completely. Yea, it's been slow-going, but LG is ramping up, not down. A 65" for $8k is not out of the question at this point in a few months...not sure it'll dip to $7k before the end of the year but more likely next year. I have what I have to presume to be burn-in on my ZT (250 hours of slides diminished but came right back with Netflix usage) and am excited about what's coming down the pike.

I think it's actually the Netflix closed captions that have caused the discoloration on solid backgrounds on the set. One other person reported this here. If you're hard of hearing or have a family member who will be watching with regularity, proceed with caution.

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post #12256 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 07:19 AM
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Bottom line is that they are going to need something else technology wise. They've been seeing margins get killed for a while and been rotating "gee-whiz" factors trying to force an upgrade from current HD panels:
- 3D didn't really do it for them
- SmartTV and other stuff...maybe but there are also cable boxes and other devices outside the display itself (always seemed crazy to integrate obsolescing technology into a longer term display but maybe that's the idea and they are trying to force more frequent upgrades)
- 4K is new but people will figure this out quickly enough once they get them home (I'm not saying it's bad but human eye at any real distance will keep this from being night/day and content is... - and Netflix/Cable doesn't even compare to BluRay at 1080p so I fail to see real 4k streaming)

They are rotating quickly now and eventually display technology will change. OLED seems to be a high probability next in-line display technology with a lot of true benefits especially compared the LCD. Making plasma going away will make this even more readily apparent. It's just going to take time. I had a friend raving about OLED technology back in 2002-3. It's been longer than any of us saw coming. I was due for an upgrade but figure my next display will be OLED and my Panny has to last me.

The one bright side to this is that the quality spread between low end displays and high end has been shrinking a great deal. Granted, that doesn't help the videophile or people on this site but for the average Joe I think they get more than they ever have for their money.
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post #12257 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 08:40 AM
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Bottom line is that they are going to need something else technology wise. They've been seeing margins get killed for a while and been rotating "gee-whiz" factors trying to force an upgrade from current HD panels:
- 3D didn't really do it for them
- SmartTV and other stuff...maybe but there are also cable boxes and other devices outside the display itself (always seemed crazy to integrate obsolescing technology into a longer term display but maybe that's the idea and they are trying to force more frequent upgrades)
- 4K is new but people will figure this out quickly enough once they get them home (I'm not saying it's bad but human eye at any real distance will keep this from being night/day and content is... - and Netflix/Cable doesn't even compare to BluRay at 1080p so I fail to see real 4k streaming)

They are rotating quickly now and eventually display technology will change. OLED seems to be a high probability next in-line display technology with a lot of true benefits especially compared the LCD. Making plasma going away will make this even more readily apparent. It's just going to take time. I had a friend raving about OLED technology back in 2002-3. It's been longer than any of us saw coming. I was due for an upgrade but figure my next display will be OLED and my Panny has to last me.

The one bright side to this is that the quality spread between low end displays and high end has been shrinking a great deal. Granted, that doesn't help the videophile or people on this site but for the average Joe I think they get more than they ever have for their money.

Good points. 3D is a very very niche product. I also agree about the SmartTV stuff, there's not too many people who don't have any sort of a box/input like a DVR/TiVo/AppleTV/Roku, etc...which already provides many if not all of the smart tv apps. 4K probably won't take off for at least another couple of years as you're still going to have to get one of the major broadcasters to broadcast in at least 1080p. And I actually still see a big difference between the lower end stuff vs the higher end stuff, mainly with motion blur. Some sets can handle it well at both the high and low wend, and some are just terrible both at the high and low end.
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post #12258 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 09:42 AM
 
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I mentioned the following in the last post but edited way after the fact as a kind of aside. Ironically, after getting a Roku stick courtesy of its screensaver that overrides Netflix (a feature that would be useful for unattended pausing for this plasma in particular), I think the lower screen discoloration/imprint I'm seeing is due to the closed captions and not the nav bar (which is only on screen for 5 seconds or less at any given time). The best I can do is to change the settings within Roku to make them as transparent as possible while not detracting from the readability/legibility for the sake of the family member who watches it the most.
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post #12259 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 11:15 AM
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And I actually still see a big difference between the lower end stuff vs the higher end stuff, mainly with motion blur. Some sets can handle it well at both the high and low wend, and some are just terrible both at the high and low end.
You are correct there. What I meant was that the traditional spread between high and low end in dollar terms has gotten a lot more narrow. What one can get today for a base $1000 is pretty impressive size/tech wise. If you think about the ZT or VT the spread between the very best and what someone may grab at Costco or Best Buy in a plasma has really come in. Thinking back some 15 years and comparing a base TV (say something in the $1000 rang to a Pioneer Elite. Quality has come up at the bottom end for that $1,000 (inflation adjusted or not) and price has come down hugely for a top unit - so spread between these has come in.

Probably not the best wording but that's what I was trying to get at. Not that there aren't substantial differences but that you get a lot more for your dollar and that the differential between low and high end from a dollar perspective has come in substantially.

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post #12260 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 02:37 PM
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Bottom line is that they are going to need something else technology wise. They've been seeing margins get killed for a while and been rotating "gee-whiz" factors trying to force an upgrade from current HD panels:
- 3D didn't really do it for them
- SmartTV and other stuff...maybe but there are also cable boxes and other devices outside the display itself (always seemed crazy to integrate obsolescing technology into a longer term display but maybe that's the idea and they are trying to force more frequent upgrades)
- 4K is new but people will figure this out quickly enough once they get them home (I'm not saying it's bad but human eye at any real distance will keep this from being night/day and content is... - and Netflix/Cable doesn't even compare to BluRay at 1080p so I fail to see real 4k streaming)

They are rotating quickly now and eventually display technology will change. OLED seems to be a high probability next in-line display technology with a lot of true benefits especially compared the LCD. Making plasma going away will make this even more readily apparent. It's just going to take time. I had a friend raving about OLED technology back in 2002-3. It's been longer than any of us saw coming. I was due for an upgrade but figure my next display will be OLED and my Panny has to last me.

The one bright side to this is that the quality spread between low end displays and high end has been shrinking a great deal. Granted, that doesn't help the videophile or people on this site but for the average Joe I think they get more than they ever have for their money.
Good points. I think I mentioned this previously somewhere, but I still find it interesting that the real benefit to 4K seems to be that it takes this much resolution to get a streaming signal to rival Blu ray 1080P. I always seem to come across comments by insiders and others saying things like "oh yea, you should see a good 4K stream..... it rivals Blu ray". I've build a rather large library of Blu ray movies..... call me old fashioned, but at the current discounted prices for anything less than a new release, it's not a bad deal. I like owning the physical media
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post #12261 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 03:11 PM
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"oh yea, you should see a good 4K stream..... it rivals Blu ray"
Pardon me if I'm not on board with the whole 4k thing, but I'd be happy just to see a good 1080p stream. As it is, it's available on what, satellite TV and a small selection of Netflix titles?

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post #12262 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 03:24 PM
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Pardon me if I'm not on board with the whole 4k thing, but I'd be happy just to see a good 1080p stream. As it is, it's available on what, satellite TV and a small selection of Netflix titles?
LOL, no pardon needed........ I'm not on board either
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post #12263 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 03:36 PM
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I didn't mean to imply you were, just that I've heard the same things said about 4k that you have--how great it looks and all that--without any accounting for the obvious problems (production, content, delivery, etc.) Advocates take for granted that such problems will automatically be sorted out and it's all just a matter of time. In that respect it reminds me an awful lot of OLED, which always seems to be just one or two techno-fixes away from widespread production & affordabity. Seems more like faith than science sometimes.
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post #12264 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 03:39 PM
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saying things like "oh yea, you should see a good 4K stream..... it rivals Blu ray".
Best marketing ever! LOL
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post #12265 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 03:44 PM
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I didn't mean to imply you were, just that I've heard the same things said about 4k that you have--how great it looks and all that--without any accounting for the obvious problems (production, content, delivery, etc.) Advocates take for granted that such problems will automatically be sorted out and it's all just a matter of time. In that respect it reminds me an awful lot of OLED, which always seems to be just one or two techno-fixes away from widespread production & affordabity. Seems more like faith than science sometimes.
It's cool, I didn't take it that way at all And I agree with you as well on the OLED comment.
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I didn't mean to imply you were, just that I've heard the same things said about 4k that you have--how great it looks and all that--without any accounting for the obvious problems (production, content, delivery, etc.) Advocates take for granted that such problems will automatically be sorted out and it's all just a matter of time. In that respect it reminds me an awful lot of OLED, which always seems to be just one or two techno-fixes away from widespread production & affordabity. Seems more like faith than science sometimes.
I dunno, the latter has been pretty far away from such until the past year. When relating to where the rubber hits the road and all.
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post #12267 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 05:00 PM
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Well, as for me, high-def content still looks too amazing to dump, so I'll just "suffer" through it. When an OLED comes along, larger in size, with decent motion resolution (closer to 1080p than 600p), and at an affordable price, I suspect the ZT will find its way onto the classifieds. That is still another year a way at the earliest.
Im curious. If it comes in that larger size in both a flat and curved screen...now that you've had time with both...which one would you buy?
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Price being equal or nearly so, the flat by a mile.
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post #12269 of 12764 Old 07-14-2014, 05:37 PM
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that's what I was afraid you were going to say :S
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That said, if that's all that were available, I'd still elect for the curved screen over the antiquated plasma, size being equal (or greater). I don't feel it's detrimental, just not beneficial.
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