Official ZT60 Owners Thread - Page 448 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13411 of 13838 Old 02-18-2015, 07:16 PM
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So I've had this TV for a little over a year and I'm thinking about getting a 4K TV. What TV is going to really outshine this TV?

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post #13412 of 13838 Old 02-18-2015, 07:35 PM
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Nothing will outshine it but the OLED will come close.
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post #13413 of 13838 Old 02-18-2015, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
So I've had this TV for a little over a year and I'm thinking about getting a 4K TV. What TV is going to really outshine this TV?
If you want to upgrade already? Don't know why you would? OLED 4k is your only worthy upgrade.

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Nothing will outshine it but the OLED will come close.
OLED will be better in blacks but not in motion. Plasma is still king in motion resolution.
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post #13414 of 13838 Old 02-18-2015, 08:59 PM
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Nothing will outshine it but the OLED will come close.
Does this mean that the OLED is better, just not by much in everything minus motion?

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post #13415 of 13838 Old 02-18-2015, 09:12 PM
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OLED can yield marginally better blacks. All other factors are the same or worse than plasma. And since LG, a manufacturer known for their sub-par TVs, is making the OLED I think I'd pass.
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post #13416 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post
OLED can yield marginally better blacks. All other factors are the same or worse than plasma. And since LG, a manufacturer known for their sub-par TVs, is making the OLED I think I'd pass.
Marginally? OLED produces infinite blacks. The ZT does not. It's no contest.
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post #13417 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 01:49 AM
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Yes, if the IR is visible under normal viewing conditions (as opposed to all-white screen) then that is problematic.

I didn't mean to imply that IR is just fine and dandy, but that it shouldn't annoy people that much if it fades and doesn't interfere with normal viewing. In your case it does interfere, so I can appreciate your disappointment in the performance of your TV.
Do agree with you!! Thanks
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post #13418 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 01:52 AM
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Check post 7821 for what the front glass separation looks like. It is normal for the front glass to sit off the bezel a bit. If you really have the separation, it will be quite apparent. A bit of light bleeding out of the edge of the panel is not necessarily cause for alarm.
So ... do you think this is "normal" on a 5000€ TV ?! ... Do you work for Panasonic?
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post #13419 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 01:53 AM
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This morning I just couldn't resist. Against my better judgment I checked all 4 corners of the TV for separation. (Why? There's nothing that can be done about it and knowing it's there would only serve to annoy me whether it affected picture quality or not.) Thankfully, they were all 100% intact. Sorry, it's not my intention to brag or rub it in.
Glad to hear that from you, hope your set keeps as good as it is right now
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post #13420 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by eaayoung View Post
Exactly. I have a gap b/w the bezel and the outside layer. Appears to be how the panels are constructed.
This might have something to be with the bonding process.. but just don't say it's normal!
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post #13421 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 02:00 AM
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Marginally? OLED produces infinite blacks. The ZT does not. It's no contest.
Blacks are not everything, please do not forget that a Plasma TV has many other advantages like Motion clarity, Viewing angles ( the same for both here ) , screen uniformity , linear gamma tracking, color accuracy.
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post #13422 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 03:35 AM
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So ... do you think this is "normal" on a 5000€ TV ?! ... Do you work for Panasonic?
Well, looking at my 60ZT60, I have roughly a 1 mm gap around the entire panel between the front glass and the bezel. As this is present on several of these tvs I have seen in person, in pictures as well as in reports from other owners here, and I see no gaps as displayed as in the previously linked post, I feel safe in presuming this is within manufacturing tolerances. On bright material, I can see light in the gap in spots. Call me Pollyanna, but I presume the light bleed is nothing more than a refractive effect of screen content at the edge of the active portion of the panel showing through at the edge. As it does not affect my viewing enjoyment when the tv is viewed as intended, and I rarely watch from the oblique angle required to see the effect, I'm not going to give it a second thought. I would personally be more worried if there was no gap as there might be pressure exerted on the front glass by the bezel which, over time, could develop into the kind of separation found in the previously quoted post. Although asked in jest (I'm sure), let me assure you, I am in no way affiliated with Panasonic Corporation other than a satisfied consumer of their products. Relax, and enjoy the picture.
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post #13423 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dajmacd View Post
Well, looking at my 60ZT60, I have roughly a 1 mm gap around the entire panel between the front glass and the bezel. As this is present on several of these tvs I have seen in person, in pictures as well as in reports from other owners here, and I see no gaps as displayed as in the previously linked post, I feel safe in presuming this is within manufacturing tolerances. On bright material, I can see light in the gap in spots. Call me Pollyanna, but I presume the light bleed is nothing more than a refractive effect of screen content at the edge of the active portion of the panel showing through at the edge. As it does not affect my viewing enjoyment when the tv is viewed as intended, and I rarely watch from the oblique angle required to see the effect, I'm not going to give it a second thought. I would personally be more worried if there was no gap as there might be pressure exerted on the front glass by the bezel which, over time, could develop into the kind of separation found in the previously quoted post. Although asked in jest (I'm sure), let me assure you, I am in no way affiliated with Panasonic Corporation other than a satisfied consumer of their products. Relax, and enjoy the picture.
That 1mm gap is "normal" as long as the panel is "glued" to the frame, when it isn't , that is not normal!
I was (obviously) just kidding on the Panasonic working thing
I'll have to wait and see what Panasonic has to say about the separation issue.
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post #13424 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pdogg93 View Post
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OLED can yield marginally better blacks. All other factors are the same or worse than plasma. And since LG, a manufacturer known for their sub-par TVs, is making the OLED I think I'd pass.
Marginally? OLED produces infinite blacks. The ZT does not. It's no contest.
"Infinite black" is a meaningless term and "infinite contrast" is a marketing term. OLED does display absolute black and can get brighter than the ZT. That opens up contrast quite a bit. However, as mentioned, the OLED also has issues with motion rendering. Additionally, it's built by LG so there are video processing issues that probably wouldn't be there if another manufacturer were making it. And then there's the whole question regarding longevity. Will it lose brightness with time? Will the loss of brightness occur uniformly? Lastly, OLEDs are susceptible to IR.

OLED is the best tech being made today. If I were buying a new TV that's what I'd buy. However, given the number of unanswered questions and the high price of adopting early, I don't think it makes sense to replace a 65" or even 60" ZT with a 55" OLED, especially if the screen is curved.

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post #13425 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 09:46 AM
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"Infinite black" is a meaningless term and "infinite contrast" is a marketing term. OLED does display absolute black and can get brighter than the ZT. That opens up contrast quite a bit. However, as mentioned, the OLED also has issues with motion rendering.
My original point was that the black levels on the LG OLED are essentially immeasurable, zero, absolute, infinity, whatever you want to call it. Whereas the black levels on a ZT are just as good if not slightly better than a pioneer kuro elite. The difference between the two is not "marginal". It's huge.

Motion handling, curved screen, pixel arrangement, screen size, etc. aside, in a dark room environment your eyes cannot help but gravitate towards the OLED. I am excited to see the progression in OLED technology to where we can have 75-85" screens, 4K resolution and absolute blacks.
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post #13426 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 10:09 AM
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My original point was that the black levels on the LG OLED are essentially immeasurable, zero, absolute, infinity, whatever you want to call it. Whereas the black levels on a ZT are just as good if not slightly better than a pioneer kuro elite. The difference between the two is not "marginal". It's huge.

Motion handling, curved screen, pixel arrangement, screen size, etc. aside, in a dark room environment your eyes cannot help but gravitate towards the OLED. I am excited to see the progression in OLED technology to where we can have 75-85" screens, 4K resolution and absolute blacks.
Granted, terms like "huge" and "significant" are subjective, but with most viewing material in most settings the difference between 0.002 and 0.000 is not that big. (Very dark or very bright room reference viewing is another matter.)

I'm excited to see the progress of OLED too, and as I said that's what I'd buy right now if I didn't already have a TV, but this isn't going to blind me to its shortcomings. As it is, we have a 55" curved OLED manufactured by a company not known for making good TVs. I too would love to see a 65"+ OLED made by one of the better manufacturers at an affordable price point, but then I'd love to have a unicorn that farts cotton candy. Until we see that we're just speaking in hypotheticals and I have a hard time getting excited about hypotheticals.


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post #13427 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 11:19 AM
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To me it's the "sum of the parts". All things considered, The VT and ZT60s have one of the best pictures money can buy....... or I should say "could buy" I too am excited about the future of OLED. If it doesn't develop further and fails, we could be stuck with LCD/LED. I am very attune to motion issues, and the Panny plasmas are fantastic in that regard. I hope the next TV I buy down the road is a 75 to 80 inch OLED ................. but it ain't happening tomorrow
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post #13428 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdogg93 View Post
My original point was that the black levels on the LG OLED are essentially immeasurable, zero, absolute, infinity, whatever you want to call it. Whereas the black levels on a ZT are just as good if not slightly better than a pioneer kuro elite. The difference between the two is not "marginal". It's huge.

Motion handling, curved screen, pixel arrangement, screen size, etc. aside, in a dark room environment your eyes cannot help but gravitate towards the OLED. I am excited to see the progression in OLED technology to where we can have 75-85" screens, 4K resolution and absolute blacks.
No such thing as immeasurable black levels either, All panels emit/transmit light and it is measurable. And before you post OLED don't, check one, and if it has reflections it is transmitting light otherwise it would look totally black. The only truly black thing in the universe is a black hole.

I Have a ZT and a Kuro and the black levels differences are marginal.

OLED is a great technology it's a great pity about the technobabble that seems to accompany descriptions of it.

The LG 4K OLED still hasn't arrived here yet. I believe there was a major accident at the factory and the Government closed it down for the moment pending resolution of safety issues.

I wonder if the panel picture quality will be acceptable if it has the processing done by the 4K Lumagens that are being designed at the moment.
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post #13429 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 01:11 PM
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To me it's the "sum of the parts". All things considered, The VT and ZT60s have one of the best pictures money can buy....... or I should say "could buy" I too am excited about the future of OLED. If it doesn't develop further and fails, we could be stuck with LCD/LED. I am very attune to motion issues, and the Panny plasmas are fantastic in that regard.

Plus there is something more pleasing to the Plasma picture than an LCD. Not sure how you could describe it but to me a Plasma seems so natural and cleaner. An LCD looks digitised? As if you're viewing a computer display.
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post #13430 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 04:29 PM
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I read about a study that showed that contrast was the best predictor of perceived image quality. It's why plasmas have always beaten LCDs. In principle, an OLED should win over plasma based on contrast.

Personally, I'll live with my 65" ZT that is merely excellent until OLED proves itself or something better comes along. Maybe my next TV will be a laser projector.

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post #13431 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 05:39 PM
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I wonder if it might be simply Panasonic wanting to keep folks using their SmartTV interface as parts of it provide a revenue stream?





Gotta ask. Considering you are using a soundbar, do you think there is anything really to be gained as you are not running at least 6 speakers?

Also, prolly better off selling it as opposed to going through Panasonic considering what these are fetching and most likely the problems described above being such that most would find no issue with.

Well glad you asked. Unlike most in here I can not afford a full 6 speaker or 7 speaker set up. Don't want to run wires all over the room. Plus this a bedroom so what is really gained by using a full surround system in such a small area. I mean if we bring physics into it, the sound from the sound bar is adequate enough in a bedroom to project very nice clear sounds. Also this bar has gotten plenty of great reviews.


I am not new to this game as I know a true set up (true 5.1 or 7.1 set up) would be best especially for something like the ZT BUT I do not have a theatre room or a dedicated room like most here. So that is why. Plus for 399$ I cant really complain as it does what I want it to do. Having a receiver would be great since the Xbox One really only does bitstream out correctly with a soundbar and HDMI. With the optical I get no static or cracking with the X1. Plus the HDMI set up is much easier than buying a 50$ monoprice HDMI switch with a toslink running out from it. So in that case I would have to run an optical cord from each device and the sound bar only has 1 input for it. I would have to buy another switch just for Toslink alone on top of the Kinivo switch.


Long story short its just simpler. Sound bars are not well accepted around these parts but for those with a lack of budget it fits the bill perfectly.


Repete...I mentioned my set up:


All sources-->4x1 Kinivo HDMI switch-->soundbar hdmi input (1)--->out from ARC input (hdmi 2 on sound bar)-->to HDMI ARC input of TV (hdmi 2). From my understanding the HDMI, thought with a soundbar, will still give you a better sound from Blu Ray since it can handle a stronger signal from the movie. Since I do not have a true 5.1 set up the Xbox ONe when set to 5.1 uncompressed only plays through the center speaker and does not project to the two other speakers that are connected to the wireless subwoofer. So it will either do Stereo Uncompressed for "imitated surround" as I call it or bitstream. If not it only does it from the center bar.


Anyway that's why, happy reading lol. 100-400$ for a sound bar is not bad at all compared to a 5.1 or 7.1 setup that even a decent one were looking at 5-600$ plus. 400$ for me was pushing it. And I saw some all in one 5.1 sets for like 300$ but if im gonna do true surround im gonna do it up, not a boxed set.
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post #13432 of 13838 Old 02-19-2015, 05:45 PM
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I am also experiencing what X-Raver is experiencing. I responded to him with pictures at AVForums. (ASACShrader99 is my name there.)

post 3297
https://www.avforums.com/threads/the...#post-21763875
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post #13433 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 12:28 AM
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I Have a ZT and a Kuro and the black levels differences are marginal.

OLED is a great technology it's a great pity about the technobabble that seems to accompany descriptions of it.
I also have a ZT and a kuro, and I agree the black levels between the two are marginal. But we're talking about ZT vs Oled. And the black levels that go with oled have nothing to do with "technobabble". LG oled black levels are the deepest, purist blacks you can get out of a tv display. Once again in a dark room setup, the black levels on the oled will destroy the black levels on the ZT.
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post #13434 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 07:13 AM
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I also have a ZT and a kuro, and I agree the black levels between the two are marginal. But we're talking about ZT vs Oled. And the black levels that go with oled have nothing to do with "technobabble". LG oled black levels are the deepest, purist blacks you can get out of a tv display. Once again in a dark room setup, the black levels on the oled will destroy the black levels on the ZT.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to see the new LG 4K OLED's yet to compare. I saw the 55" HD model in a showroom but the blacks were marred by high reflections as the place was not dark. I didn't like the screen door effect either. (that was the most off putting thing for me) Also once turned from the LG demo video to satellite TV the picture quality was unnatural.


The black levels on my ZT are the same as the black bezel. I can't see where one ends and the other starts. Where the OLED wins out is zero overspill from very bright graphics in the credits. In every other respect the picture on the ZT is better in every other way though. I am looking forward to seeing how much better the new LG's will be than the old model.
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post #13435 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 10:02 AM
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The black levels on my ZT are the same as the black bezel. I can't see where one ends and the other starts.
Do you view in room lighting, lights out or lights out and bias light?
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post #13436 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 10:27 AM
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I also have a ZT and a kuro, and I agree the black levels between the two are marginal. But we're talking about ZT vs Oled. And the black levels that go with oled have nothing to do with "technobabble". LG oled black levels are the deepest, purist blacks you can get out of a tv display. Once again in a dark room setup, the black levels on the oled will destroy the black levels on the ZT.

Meh...given the mixed PQ between formats/stations/and even the same show (black level changes 3-4 different shades during the credits for the show "Black Sails", I stopped worrying about "numbers" long ago. If its "dark enough" to match the bezel, its dark enough "for me". Outside of that, does a calibrated ZT image detract from viewing enjoyment after experiencing OLED for the same content?
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post #13437 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 10:36 AM
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And lest we forget, the question was what TV will "outshined" the ZT. I wasn't saying the ZT is better than the OLED, just that I don't think the OLED's improved PQ is significant enough to justify replacing a ZT.

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post #13438 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 10:59 AM
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Do you view in room lighting, lights out or lights out and bias light?

Depends. My wife won't have all the lights off so there are some on the other side of the room when she is there. (Big room though so not too much impact.) If my daughter is there then all the lights are on. Not my favourite way to watch content. I have a 4 watt light behind the ZT on all the time.
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post #13439 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 11:03 AM
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If its "dark enough" to match the bezel, its dark enough "for me". Outside of that, does a calibrated ZT image detract from viewing enjoyment after experiencing OLED for the same content?
Space movies like Gravity are a prime example of how much darker blacks can get. On my ZT, while I enjoyed watching Gravity, the scenes where it is just empty space and stars really show how gray the blacks actually are. In cases like this, anyone can easily distinguish the black levels and the bezel.

OLED fixes this 'annoyance', and depending on your environment, actually makes it look like the picture is floating. The OLED experience in a dark room is unparalleled.

But for now... The ZT is good enough!
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post #13440 of 13838 Old 02-20-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyMacDonald View Post
Depends. My wife won't have all the lights off so there are some on the other side of the room when she is there. (Big room though so not too much impact.) If my daughter is there then all the lights are on. Not my favourite way to watch content. I have a 4 watt light behind the ZT on all the time.
Bias lighting will help with your perceived black levels, and therefore, OLED vs ZT will likely not make enough of a difference for you. But for the true dark room enthusiast, there is no comparison.
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