Official ZT60 Owners Thread - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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post #2611 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

Oh, I know that. I was referring to the regular menu. Do those settings reset on a Panasonic like they do on a Samsung?
Yes
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post #2612 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

What specific picture parameters are affected by the uneven pixel wear ?

It depends on the pixel that has been fall behind. If it is green, then everything that depends on it.

BTW, I am not saying you cannot reach an even point on the curved graph with various contents, I am just saying it takes much longer than using slides and you never know when or where you have reached to that point. With slides, they are all aged uniformly and if you time it, you always know where your pixels are at. When you are at 2/3 of the time line, all pixels are already at the end of the curve, and from that point the difference is almost zero. It is the nature of curve, e, and logarithmic curves.
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post #2613 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:42 PM
 
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post #2614 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:44 PM
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Sorry but you are wrong calibration adjustments of greyscale luminance gamma hue and saturation etc are not affected by whether you have run slides or not

If you have the requisite hours regardless of whether you varied content or used slides the end result of calibration is the same

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post #2615 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by changboy View Post

most of all unit when u open the service menu and this on all value have the original setting in up and down to it the new value if u change it before so you just have to look and compare them to know if some value was change. On the ZT the only things someone should change its the SUB BRIGHTESS for increase the light output of the unit. Before ask why change that value its becoze if all ur setting on pro 1 and 2 u pump up the brightness at 10 for exemple so by increase the sub brightness in service menu from 800 to 825 (exemple), ur setting in pro 1 and 2 on the brightness can be left at 0, as u can see the THX CINEMA mode from company all setting set at 0 but u can find lil more brightness on thx day mode right ? So thats what i think about this.

I hope you realize the risks you are taking exploring the service menu. rolleyes.gif
I doubt anyone on this thread would encourage doing more than accessing it to check hours. I guess we can live vicariously through you on this aspect of our sets.
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post #2616 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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post #2617 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:50 PM
 
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post #2618 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:52 PM
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Bricking your tv or voiding the warranty to name two

No professional calibrator ever messes with sub brightness

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post #2619 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Sorry but you are wrong calibration adjustments of greyscale luminance gamma hue and saturation etc are not affected by whether you have run slides or not

If you have the requisite hours regardless of whether you varied content or used slides the end result of calibration is the same

The keyword in your post is IF, and I don't argue with that. The problem is, you never know which part of the screen has reached the enough hours, and for sure your calibrator does not evaluate every pixel on your display.

I am sorry, but this is the place we have to agree to disagree. I have enough knowledge of math to be able to interpret a simple curve, so before I shell out a couple of hundreds on calibration, I will make sure the pixels will be aged evenly and uniformly.

EDIT:

BTW, how come gray scale and colors are not affected if your green pixels produce 10x more brightness than red pixels because they are not aged enough. In 200 hours, when all of them are aged, the green will be at the same brightness of red, so the settings changes.
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post #2620 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 06:56 PM
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That's certainly your prerogative but I am telling you from much personal experience it is unnecessary

I wish you luck in your calibration and hope you can find a good calibrator for that price you set warrants the best and that doesnt come cheap

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post #2621 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 07:00 PM
 
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post #2622 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost! View Post

The keyword in your post is IF, and I don't argue with that. The problem is, you never know which part of the screen has reached the enough hours, and for sure your calibrator does not evaluate every pixel on your display.

I am sorry, but this is the place we have to agree to disagree. I have enough knowledge of math to be able to interpret a simple curve, so before I shell out a couple of hundreds on calibration, I will make sure the pixels will be aged evenly and uniformly.

EDIT:

BTW, how come gray scale and colors are not affected if your green pixels produce 10x more brightness than red pixels because they are not aged enough. In 200 hours, when all of them are aged, the green will be at the same brightness of red, so the settings changes.

Produce a calibration chart that shows that negative effect better yet look at mine in my sig just scroll up in that thread and point out the problem in my calibration

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post #2623 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post



Produce a calibration chart that shows that negative effect better yet look at mine in my sig just scroll up in that thread and point out the problem in my calibration

You don't get my point at all. You calibration charts are based on some specific points/sections of the screen. How can you be sure it will hold the same at every 1920×1080 pixels since you didn't run the content that age them uniformly, and certainly you don't have a chart for every pixels separately.
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post #2624 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 07:15 PM
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Who judges a calibration on a pixel by pixel basis

Plasmas are uniform by nature I don't need to evaluate every single pixel to do a calibration

I'm really done discussing this you believe in slides I don't my set is stellar in every way and I'm sure yours will be also
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post #2625 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I'm really done discussing this you believe in slides I don't my set is stellar in every way and I'm sure yours will be also

smile.gif That is a good idea, and I am sure the variation is not that much noticeable so enjoy your set.

BTW, I don't believe in anything. My scientific intuition just tells me it makes sense to age all pixels evenly whenever I look at the aging curve.
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post #2626 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Who judges a calibration on a pixel by pixel basis

Plasmas are uniform by nature I don't need to evaluate every single pixel to do a calibration

I'm really done discussing this you believe in slides I don't my set is stellar in every way and I'm sure yours will be also
Were would we be without scientific intuition? I've stayed out of this discussion, because I'm too old to ever hope to penetrate such density. You made a noble effort. biggrin.gif

I've seen D-Nice's gift of starting settings distorted in many ways over the years, but never to this extent.

Cheers. smile.gif
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post #2627 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Were would we be without scientific intuition? I've stayed out of this discussion, because I'm too old to ever hope to penetrate such density. You made a noble effort. biggrin.gif

I've seen D-Nice's gift of starting settings distorted in many ways over the years, but never to this extent.

Cheers. smile.gif

And yet it is the second time you are trying too, first being post #2472 and before.

I am beginning to think it is not related to age, and you have a nag for intimidation. Whatever floats your boat, this is a free country.
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post #2628 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost! View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Where did D-Nice post settings for the ZT60 models? I'm only aware of his settings for the ST60 sets.

I used the ST60 on ZT60:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466472/2013-panasonic-settings-issues-thread

Surprisingly, it is not bad on this panel. Maybe because it is a wreck in color rendition.
I'm grateful that it's unlikely that anyone will ask me to explain your reasoning. eek.gif
This post (#2472) was directed to you, and yes, no one has ask me to explain your reasoning. I'm still regretful. smile.gif

Of course post #2626 is directed to Chunon.
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post #2629 of 12417 Old 08-22-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Lost! View Post

You don't get my point at all. You calibration charts are based on some specific points/sections of the screen. How can you be sure it will hold the same at every 1920×1080 pixels since you didn't run the content that age them uniformly, and certainly you don't have a chart for every pixels separately.

Lost, I have came to the same conclusion as yours. However, I have a degree in math and physics and an INTP, so think a lot about curves- even the fun ones. :-) The poster is just not going to see your point. With that being said, I have never felt the need to run slides, since as you noted overtime it becomes the same. Or as some great economist said- in the end we are all dead. LOL

Now what I wish I could find it some current, validated pixel ageing stats that shows when the curve goes really flat for the latest gen of Panasonic phosphors. The consensus seem to be some where between 100-300 hours. Empirically that seems to work(even without using slides). If you have seen something, please post it. Thanks
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post #2630 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 02:05 AM
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I do understand the point but no one here can prove it has a negative effect on a calibration or that the calibration will drift faster

Aging phosphors evenly and then watching content after that point that doesn't age them evenly has the same net effect

Both of you should take some time and learn about calibration

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post #2631 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 03:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Aging phosphors evenly and then watching content after that point that doesn't age them evenly has the same net effect
This kept popping into my head as well. There's no way to get continuously equitable aging if, for instance, one uses their panel for primarily Blu-ray movies (because of those pesky ARs) after the first 300 hours. I suppose the hope is that the phosphors settle enough by this point for it not to be of too much concern for when the calibration is performed.
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post #2632 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 03:13 AM
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I don't think the slides are totally without merit they are fine in the narrow context of prepping for dnices settings or rapidly aging the panel while unattended

I use them night when prepping for a cal but that is only to accelerate the aging process

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post #2633 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 05:32 AM
 
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I am beyond that stage and ran the slides for 2 week straight....but between that rapid aging process and whenever I am able to have a calibration done, I'm watching mostly movies where I won't have control of the aspect ratios in advance, and it will be interesting to see what kind of technical challenge that will present considering the prospect of uneven wear.
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post #2634 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I am beyond that stage and ran the slides for 2 week straight....but between that rapid aging process and whenever I am able to have a calibration done, I'm watching mostly movies where I won't have control of the aspect ratios in advance, and it will be interesting to see what kind of technical challenge that will present considering the prospect of uneven wear.

I think the point is that once you reach the 300 hour mark, anything you do to your set afterward is negligible. In other words, you've aged your phosphors plenty so that there really won't be any more shifts that would affect perceptual differences before or after calibration. At this point, you should be just fine.

The same can't be said for watching 300 hours of random material, though. It's almost an absolute certainty that some colors just don't get their wear in every pixel on that set in that time. It would take more like thousands of hours of varied material for that to be the case.
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post #2635 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 06:29 AM
 
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These panels are still new, so hopefully they truly do settle at the 300th hour, but I think this was only the preliminary finding by calibrators who first experimented with them back in May. I'll be more confident when stability is also found to be present at 500 and 1000 hours.tongue.gif
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post #2636 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

The same can't be said for watching 300 hours of random material, though. It's almost an absolute certainty that some colors just don't get their wear in every pixel on that set in that time. It would take more like thousands of hours of varied material for that to be the case.

I'm not as certain as you there will be discernable uneven wear. I guess it depends how random the random material is. If someone watches a lot of 4:3 or 2.35:1 material, or channels with tickers, static logos, etc., the wear would not be even, obviously.

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post #2637 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 07:43 AM
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BestBuy Geek Squad Calibration

I got a call from GS for calibrating my TV. It seems that nobody cancelled the original appointment when I exchanged my TVs. Anyway, the agent was nice enough to answer my questions.

  1. They need at least 200 hours on the set
  2. I asked about 90 minutes appointment, and how it is insufficient for day, night, and 3D modes, and the agent replied that they only do one calibration mode for Panasonic. So, you only get one general purpose mode! How smart of BB that solved the 90 minutes limitations quickly and painlessly.
  3. I asked about the equipment, and whether they use colorimeters or spectrometers, and the agent said they only use a profiled colorimeter. The name was something like senti, centi or something like that with S, N, and T in it. I had never heard of it before.
  4. I asked about service menu, and the agent confirmed that they will go to service menu of ZT. I asked why, and the answer was because there are more controls over color hues in there! I even said that this is the ZT we are talking about, and the agent confirmed.

So, based on these points, it is obvious that previous conscience regarding GS calibration stands correct. You never know what you will get, and the chances on getting a very knowledgeable person with high quality equipment are very slim. I honestly don’t trust a previously profiled colorimeter on my TV, nor can tolerate the service menu changes unless by someone THX certified or something.
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post #2638 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 08:02 AM
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Agreed. I would just tell them not to bother. You will probably end up getting a pro cal anyway and you wont have to worry about them fiddling in your service menu.

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post #2639 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I am beyond that stage and ran the slides for 2 week straight....but between that rapid aging process and whenever I am able to have a calibration done, I'm watching mostly movies where I won't have control of the aspect ratios in advance, and it will be interesting to see what kind of technical challenge that will present considering the prospect of uneven wear.

It takes a very long time for uneven phospher wear of that kinds to rear its ugly head, you should have no issues with your calibration

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post #2640 of 12417 Old 08-23-2013, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

I think the point is that once you reach the 300 hour mark, anything you do to your set afterward is negligible. In other words, you've aged your phosphors plenty so that there really won't be any more shifts that would affect perceptual differences before or after calibration. At this point, you should be just fine.

The same can't be said for watching 300 hours of random material, though. It's almost an absolute certainty that some colors just don't get their wear in every pixel on that set in that time. It would take more like thousands of hours of varied material for that to be the case.

And what is the net effect of that ? a sub par calibration ? The calibrations I have seen and personally experienced argue against that,

Also all panels drift over time regardless on the aging method used, it may take a long while to be apparent but the greyscale does drift slowly, hence the need for calibration tuneups.

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