Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Owners Thread (No Street Price Talk) - Page 121 - AVS Forum
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post #3601 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I have not given any figures publicly, mainly because, unlike the Panasonic 60 series, I've only done a handful of F8500s. The initial set I reviewed set the standard for plasma brightness and had pretty good black levels. The second I don't remember the black level, but I remember light output only got in the 40's fL range. That sample had had a screen replaced by an authorized tech, though, and I was unsure if it was representative of a normal sample. However, the next two I have done have also only managed in the 40's, and they had much worse black level measurements than the review set both with / without content and with / without black optimizer.

What I've observed might not be rising blacks as hours accumulate; it might be due more to a change in FW or manufacturing.

 

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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post
 


Wow, 52fL for the ZT60 and only in the 40fL range for the F8500!  Things have changed quite a bit on these models as it has been widely reported that the ZT60 can only get to the mid 30fL range  and the F8500 can go up to the id 60fL range.  What happened to make this dramatic swap in peak luminance on these two competing TVs????  Also poor MLL on Samsung's F8500 has never been reported before.

 

What meter are you using and what window size are you measuring MLL and peak luminance in?

 

Sorry to bump this, but I wonder how this can be and thought it would be helpful for many of us to understand this highly debated differences between these two great plasma TVs.  Everything I read on CNET and other reviewers says the opposite.    How can you get 52fL on a ZT60 and only 40fL on the F8500?

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post #3602 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Ditto: 55LHX passes all the 24/30/60 Motion Tests. Samsung with Judder Setting at Off, only passes the 60 Test. Fails the 24/30.

Additional Note: Re Picture Size: 16:9 - Sharpness was Optimized at 15. Picture Fit - Sharpness was Optimized at 5. I was comparing with Konica Tech. He got a Sharper Picture with Picture Fit, I was Sharper with 16:9 - the reason was we had each Optimized for the Picture Size we had picked. Swapping Size degraded the PQ. Set mine now on Picture Fit and Sharpness Optimized with S&M 2, at 5.

I ran this test on both my Pioneer 5020 and my Samsung. Oddly enough, both failed the 24p and 30p motion, and both passed the 60i test.
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post #3603 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 02:44 PM
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I ran this test on both my Pioneer 5020 and my Samsung. Oddly enough, both failed the 24p and 30p motion, and both passed the 60i test.
So whats your thoughts to fix this? 24p and 30p motion...

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post #3604 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 02:47 PM
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So whats your thoughts to fix this? 24p and 30p motion...

I don't know if there is a fix other than turning MJC on and dealing with SOE. The one 60i test on the disc with the woman in the hammock, sure looked like SOE. May be an inherent issue with plasmas. I remember these discussions in the Pioneer threads, with no real solution ever discovered other than some other external video processor like a DVDO, etc. One has to remember is that these test are for motion judder, not blur where plasma excels.
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post #3605 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post
 

 

Sorry to bump this, but I wonder how this can be and thought it would be helpful for many of us to understand this highly debated differences between these two great plasma TVs.  Everything I read on CNET and other reviewers says the opposite.    How can you get 52fL on a ZT60 and only 40fL on the F8500?

I seem to remember at the great shoot-out, they had to set a lower luminous level of 35ftl for the Samsung because the Panasonic could only reach that level during calibration.

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post #3606 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 04:08 PM
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With all these measurements going on, the good thing is I still have great blacks on my set and with the cell light at 15 I can burn my eyes out! Can't do that with the Panasonic....

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post #3607 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

Sorry to bump this, but I wonder how this can be and thought it would be helpful for many of us to understand this highly debated differences between these two great plasma TVs.  Everything I read on CNET and other reviewers says the opposite.    How can you get 52fL on a ZT60 and only 40fL on the F8500?

Chad B discovered a way to calibrate the VT/ZT with high panel brightness mode into the 50s ftL. The calibrations have turned out really well.

Obviously, something has changed at least in some of the F8500s in regards to blacks and light output as it's been reported in other 2013 Samsungs from other people. Maybe it's firmware, maybe it's something else. I don't think anyone knows right now.

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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Chad B discovered a way to calibrate the VT/ZT with high panel brightness mode into the 50s ftL. The calibrations have turned out really well.

Obviously, something has changed at least in some of the F8500s in regards to blacks and light output as it's been reported in other 2013 Samsungs from other people. Maybe it's firmware, maybe it's something else. I don't think anyone knows right now.

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Originally Posted by KONICA TECH View Post

With all these measurements going on, the good thing is I still have great blacks on my set and with the cell light at 15 I can burn my eyes out! Can't do that with the Panasonic....

I still think either these panels have a firmware upgrade issue, they are stuck in ECO mode or just set in ECO mode etc. Even a experienced calibrator could have missed turning off ECO mode (isn't ECO ON by default in standard pic mode too)??
I cannot imagine ever running my panel past 15 for cell light and put on you shades for that....
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post #3609 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post


I still think either these panels have a firmware upgrade issue, they are stuck in ECO mode or just set in ECO mode etc. Even a experienced calibrator could have missed turning off ECO mode (isn't ECO ON by default in standard pic mode too)??
I cannot imagine ever running my panel past 15 for cell light and put on you shades for that....

OOTB cell light on eco mode is set to zero, but it is also turned off too. After every factory reset, it also set cell light back to zero in eco mode.
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post #3610 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by KONICA TECH View Post
 

I seem to remember at the great shoot-out, they had to set a lower luminous level of 35ftl for the Samsung because the Panasonic could only reach that level during calibration.

Yes that's true.  I wish they would have let the TVs do what they could, but the owner and calibrators capped the F8500 at 35fL.  Here's the link to the shootout.

 

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Chad B discovered a way to calibrate the VT/ZT with high panel brightness mode into the 50s ftL. The calibrations have turned out really well.

Obviously, something has changed at least in some of the F8500s in regards to blacks and light output as it's been reported in other 2013 Samsungs from other people. Maybe it's firmware, maybe it's something else. I don't think anyone knows right now.

Panel brightness set high can't be the only answer as no VT/ZT60 could hit 52fL even with panel brightness set high.  Plus you can't get a flat gamma with high panel brightness.  I guess if you accept a "S" curved gamma you might get the panel to possibly 40fL, but not 52fL.  I can only assume the window size is smaller than what most calibrators and reviewers use as the standard window size, but that's not an real answer to getting any VT/ZT60 to put out 52fL by the standard window size that reviewers and most calibrators use.

 

Chad, can you help us understand your methodology?  I know we all would love our Panasonic plasma TV to be brighter.  (Those who own a VT/ZT60 and don't agree would quickly change your mind if you saw your panel deliver higher luminance as you would enjoy not only a brighter panel, but whiter whites and significantly higher contrast and more gradation and detail in the high tones.  Contrast ratio is the single most important image quality enhancement.) 

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Don't forget, it's in this Forum, and only recently, it was found about the ECO On, turn Cell Light to 20, then ECO Off. Also, only recently, the CS and Judder issue. More bugs have been unearthed in the last little while by members. Will be interesting to see a review with an 8500 with these conditions taken care of.
Looked at the Service Menu White Balance, and the White Balance specifications there are Cool specs for 11500 to 13500K. On our LG 55LHXs, the Service Menu White Balances have areas for Cool, Medium and Warm settings. Not available on the Samsung.
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post #3612 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

Yes that's true.  I wish they would have let the TVs do what they could, but the owner and calibrators capped the F8500 at 35fL.  Here's the link to the shootout.

Panel brightness set high can't be the only answer as no VT/ZT60 could hit 52fL even with panel brightness set high.  Plus you can't get a flat gamma with high panel brightness.  I guess if you accept a "S" curved gamma you might get the panel to possibly 40fL, but not 52fL.  I can only assume the window size is smaller than what most calibrators and reviewers use as the standard window size, but that's not an real answer to getting any VT/ZT60 to put out 52fL by the standard window size that reviewers and most calibrators use.

Chad, can you help us understand your methodology?  I know we all would love our Panasonic plasma TV to be brighter.  (Those who own a VT/ZT60 and don't agree would quickly change your mind if you saw your panel deliver higher luminance as you would enjoy not only a brighter panel, but whiter whites and significantly higher contrast and more gradation and detail in the high tones.  Contrast ratio is the single most important image quality enhancement.) 

I'm going to assume, the 52fL was in the 5% APL Window, not the whole Panel afterwards!
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Just Iike any other plasma ftl figure ever quoted what's your point ?

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Firmware 1118 now available...

TV - Samsung PN51F8500
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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

Yes that's true.  I wish they would have let the TVs do what they could, but the owner and calibrators capped the F8500 at 35fL.  Here's the link to the shootout.

Panel brightness set high can't be the only answer as no VT/ZT60 could hit 52fL even with panel brightness set high.  Plus you can't get a flat gamma with high panel brightness.  I guess if you accept a "S" curved gamma you might get the panel to possibly 40fL, but not 52fL.  I can only assume the window size is smaller than what most calibrators and reviewers use as the standard window size, but that's not an real answer to getting any VT/ZT60 to put out 52fL by the standard window size that reviewers and most calibrators use.

Chad, can you help us understand your methodology?  I know we all would love our Panasonic plasma TV to be brighter.  (Those who own a VT/ZT60 and don't agree would quickly change your mind if you saw your panel deliver higher luminance as you would enjoy not only a brighter panel, but whiter whites and significantly higher contrast and more gradation and detail in the high tones.  Contrast ratio is the single most important image quality enhancement.) 

Chad has discussed his method previously (in Panasonic thread) unless he decides to chime in. Environment and preferences dictate light output. I sit just over 8 feet back from my 65" VT60 and in a dark room (which is most of my viewing), I do not want, nor can tolerate more than 31 ftL. That, to me, is perfect. MLL is the most important factor for contrast ratio (which is why a good plasma has a significantly higher contrast than LED) unless you're watching with the sun or very bright lights glaring into your room and on your display which I do not have. Whiter whites are achieved by getting as close to D65 as you can.

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Firmware 1118 now available...

BANG!

Sorry li'l joke there wink.gif This thread needs a giggle.
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Firmware 1118 now available...

BANG!

Sorry li'l joke there wink.gif This thread needs a giggle.

LMAO!! Yea dude, in with you. Wish they would post a freakin' changelog.

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Then you add in the fact that the Panny's are more prone to IR and burn-in, what would happen with the increased luminous levels????

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post #3619 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 06:27 PM
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I'm going to assume, the 52fL was in the 5% APL Window, not the whole Panel afterwards!

 

After reading Chad's findings I also assumed he is using a smaller window size than the fL measurements that are generally used.  But if that's what Chad is doing to get a higher fL reading it's not making the VT/ZT60 any brighter than what we know it to be, approx 30fL to a max of 36fL with the standard window size.  High panel brightness is a good idea to get higher luminance and I personally would accept this compromise for a not perfect flat gamma.

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Just Iike any other plasma ftl figure ever quoted what's your point ?

Not sure if that's the case and this is what I'm trying to understated as it's simply not possible to get any VT/ZT60 to put out 52fL with the standard window size.  And just to be clear, I never expected any plasma TV to be measure at full screen peak luminance.  I'm not sure what CNET, Sound and Vision, HDTV Test, Consumer reports or other calibrators window size is, but I believe it's somewhere around a 16% window size.  And it's just not possible to drive the VT/ZT60 to get to 52fL with any standard accepted window size.

 

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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post


Chad has discussed his method previously (in Panasonic thread) unless he decides to chime in. Environment and preferences dictate light output. I sit just over 8 feet back from my 65" VT60 and in a dark room (which is most of my viewing), I do not want, nor can tolerate more than 31 ftL. That, to me, is perfect. MLL is the most important factor for contrast ratio (which is why a good plasma has a significantly higher contrast than LED) unless you're watching with the sun or very bright lights glaring into your room and on your display which I do not have. Whiter whites are achieved by getting as close to D65 as you can.

 

I agree that D65 is achieved by proper D65 calibration, but no one could deny that to the human eye a plasma TV that is set to 31fL vs. one set to 40fL does not look as white where white is the color being displayed.  Joe Kane suggests 40fL for a dark room night calibration.  I also like 35fL to a max of 40fL for nighttime viewing.  White ceilings crush the black level as the display's light output hits the ceiling and reflects back onto the screen reducing the MLL.

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post #3620 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

After reading Chad's findings I also assumed he is using a smaller window size than the fL measurements that are generally used.  But if that's what Chad is doing to get a higher fL reading it's not making the VT/ZT60 any brighter than what we know it to be, approx 30fL to a max of 36fL with the standard window size.  High panel brightness is a good idea to get higher luminance and I personally would accept this compromise for a not perfect flat gamma.
Not sure if that's the case and this is what I'm trying to understated as it's simply not possible to get any VT/ZT60 to put out 52fL with the standard window size.  And just to be clear, I never expected any plasma TV to be measure at full screen peak luminance.  I'm not sure what CNET, Sound and Vision, HDTV Test, Consumer reports or other calibrators window size is, but I believe it's somewhere around a 16% window size.  And it's just not possible to drive the VT/ZT60 to get to 52fL with any standard accepted window size.


I agree that D65 is achieved by proper D65 calibration, but no one could deny that to the human eye a plasma TV that is set to 31fL vs. one set to 40fL does not look as white where white is the color being displayed.  Joe Kane suggests 40fL for a dark room night calibration.  I also like 35fL to a max of 40fL for nighttime viewing.  White ceilings crush the black level as the display's light output hits the ceiling and reflects back onto the screen reducing the MLL.

You're confusing white again with light output. Yes, 41 ftL looks notably brighter because it is - and I've seen my set calibrated in the upper 30s and whites just looked brighter - not whiter than 31 ftL. A lot of video enthusiasts calibrate to low 30s - especially if you are sitting only 8 feet from a 65" in a dark room. (When my display was 10 feet back, my eyes could tolerate more ftL in a dark room). Light output is also dependent on screen size and distance as you are not acknowledging.

I do a lot of Blu-ray movie viewing and I find when whites get too bright, it starts to hurt the film-like look of 'softer' white if you will. If you watch a lot of projected film, you do not get eye-blazing whites. Of course, this is purely a preferential thing.

As far as Joe, some of what he says can be debated. This is a man who once said 720p was plenty for HD. lol

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You're confusing white again with light output. Yes, 41 ftL looks notably brighter because it is - and I've seen my set calibrated in the upper 30s and whites just looked brighter - not whiter than 31 ftL. A lot of video enthusiasts calibrate to low 30s - especially if you are sitting only 8 feet from a 65" in a dark room. (When my display was 10 feet back, my eyes could tolerate more ftL in a dark room). Light output is also dependent on screen size and distance as you are not acknowledging.

As far as Joe, some of what he says can be debated. This is a man who said 720p was plenty for HD. lol


Thanks for the good reply.  I do understand and stated that a proper D6500K calibration is what sets white correctly and then I further stated that to the human eye 40fL makes whites look whiter and that is a absolute fact.  It may not be technically correct, but the truth of how our eye interpreters white between a plasma set at 31fL vs. 40fL is absolutely indisputable and what we see is far more important than what a Kelvin meter says.

 

BTW, Joe Kane made that statement in 1998 when HDTV standards were just established.  What he saw and correctly stated is that 720p was enough resolution for most flat panel displays and further the poor De-interlacing made 1080i degraded the picture quality far more than a 720p signal that did not have to go through the interlacing and De-interlacing processes and he was and still is 100% correct.

 

Joe Kane gave video examples of ABC's 720p fast motion football that had excellent motion resolution and no anomalies introduced by other broadcasters inaccurate interlacing and De-interlacing 1080i signals.   Remember back in 1998 we were only talking about 1080i vs. 720p as 1080p or BD was not in the market at that time.

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Thanks for the good reply.  I do understand and stated that a proper D6500K calibration is what sets white correctly and then I further stated that to the human eye 40fL makes whites look whiter and that is a absolute fact.  It may not be technically correct, but the truth of how our eye interpreters white between a plasma set at 31fL vs. 40fL is absolutely indisputable and what we see is far more important than what a Kelvin meter says.

BTW, Joe Kane made that statement in 1998 when HDTV standards were just established.  What he saw and correctly stated is that 720p was enough resolution for most flat panel displays and further the poor De-interlacing made 1080i degraded the picture quality far more than a 720p signal that did not have to go through the interlacing and De-interlacing processes and he was and still is 100% correct.

Joe Kane gave video examples of ABC's 720p fast motion football that had excellent motion resolution and no anomalies introduced by other broadcasters inaccurate interlacing and De-interlacing 1080i signals.   Remember back in 1998 we were only talking about 1080i vs. 720p as 1080p or BD was not in the market at that time.

You're making a logical fallacy and you're stating your own opinion as fact while you're confusing a couple of concepts into one.

Furthermore, why are you so stuck on 40 ftl? That is purely arbitrary. Why not 38.5? Why not 41.2? Why not 40.88? In addition, how do you know what MY eyes perceive or what other people's eyes perceive? I've even heard D-Nice say he stays around ~30ftl in a dark room. I already told you what I saw on my VT60 which was calibrated by Chad (who has the reputation as a top traveling calibrator FYI) with a Jeti spectro 1211. Whites were not "whiter" (whatever in the hell you are trying to say lol) in the upper 30s which is close enough to your precious 40 ftL. Whites look far more balanced and natural to MY eyes sitting relatively close to a large flat panel display in a pitch dark room staying closer to 31 ftL. The VT60 has tremendous contrast and it doesn't take a lot of light to start to create eye strain in a dark room at certain distance/screen size.

As far as 720p vs 1080i, with my Time Warner cable on the best broadcasts, 1080i is superior. This has been the case with other display technologies in my home. And it's even superior with sports, but YMMV.

Anyway, enjoy your display.

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David, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  And I sincerely appreciate your opinions.  But for me I prefer higher luminance and it does not have to be 40fL in a dark room, but 31fL at 10' away from the screen is too dim for my liking.

 

Regarding Joe Kane statement you quoted please remember it was said in 1998 long before broadcasters and TV manufacturers improved interlacing and De-interlacing.  It's simply not correct to quote Joe Kane on what he very correctly said in 1998 and use it in context today.  I know your 1080i broadcasts look better than 720p so do mine, but they certainly did not look good in 1998.

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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

David, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  And I sincerely appreciate your opinions.  But for me I prefer higher luminance and it does not have to be 40fL in a dark room, but 31fL at 10' away from the screen is too dim for my liking.

Regarding Joe Kane statement you quoted please remember it was said in 1998 long before broadcasters and TV manufacturers improved interlacing and De-interlacing.  It's simply not correct to quote Joe Kane on what he very correctly said in 1998 and use it in continence today.  I know your 1080i broadcasts look better than 720p so do mine, but they certainly did not look good in 1998.

That was my point all along, light output is preferential based on several factors. And for crying out loud, it's not like I am viewing this display at 10 ftL as you made it sound to be lol. Also, I said I sit 8 feet back at 31ftL. Two feet makes a big difference in this context too (believe me, I have experimented).

Look, Joe Kane has been a tremendous benefit to the industry and video enthusiasts. However, he is human and he has made a number of questionable/debatable comments over the years including a recent comment alluding 1080p is useless for a display under 55". However, I don't want to debate Joe Kane because I very much respect what he has done.

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post #3625 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 07:28 PM
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Thanks it seems we agree far more than we disagree. 

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post #3626 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 07:35 PM
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So the question remains....  How do I get my ZT60 to produce more than 34fL for daytime viewing.  This is all I can get with panel brightness set to high and an okay, but not flat gamma.  It's okay for nighttime viewing, but of course, I'd like to get more light out of the panel as we sit 10' from the display. I can accept 34fL for night viewing.  But in the daytime it's too dim.

 

My dealer is willing to swap for the F8500.   For me in my family room, which has normal ambient light and sitting 10' from the screen higher luminance is a very important attribute.

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post #3627 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 07:51 PM
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post #3628 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 07:55 PM
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We've been frozen solid here for more than a month.  So I don't suggest visiting NY till we thaw out.  But I'd be happy to have my ZT60 calibrated by Chad.  I had it calibrated by a well respected pro calibrator, but the best he could get is 34fL in ISF Day with panel brightness set to high.  We tried other modes, but the controls were not as fine and we still could not get the panel any brighter.

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post #3629 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 08:01 PM
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I will say this about Chad, when a new unit is in front of him and is buggy in the menu systems, that is when he shines. He just will not give up, the audio/video expert explodes out like the unit is trying to challenge his master mind brain. He gets a energy drink, put his battle gear on ( a head flashlight ), and goes to battle. LOL smile.gif
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post #3630 of 8315 Old 01-30-2014, 08:06 PM
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So true^. smile.gif I've seen him work 9 hours straight before on a previous CRT RPTV display of mine. He'll do whatever it takes to optimize it.

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