Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Owners Thread (No Street Price Talk) - Page 210 - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Owners Thread (No Street Price Talk)
hhaller's Avatar hhaller 07:24 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
PN64F8500 getting better with more hours, or is it the new 060914 Radiance Firmware with the new, improved patterns combined with the latest Calman 5.3.5 RC4 Build #1581 making this set look awesome?
Also, in it's lower hours of usage, Black was dead center on turn on, but drifted out to about 1/2" from center after a few hours. Now, after a few hours, Black is 3/4 in the dead center box. So something is definitely improving. I expect after some more hours of usage, Black will stay Dead Center all the time. So, BLACKS are getting better!
Have you had a chance to measure your black levels yet? I'm on the fence about a 8500 myself.

muffinmcfluffin's Avatar muffinmcfluffin 11:52 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
PN64F8500 getting better with more hours, or is it the new 060914 Radiance Firmware with the new, improved patterns combined with the latest Calman 5.3.5 RC4 Build #1581 making this set look awesome?
Also, in it's lower hours of usage, Black was dead center on turn on, but drifted out to about 1/2" from center after a few hours. Now, after a few hours, Black is 3/4 in the dead center box. So something is definitely improving. I expect after some more hours of usage, Black will stay Dead Center all the time. So, BLACKS are getting better!
How many hours are you at? I'm still south of 3,000 hours on my F8500.
p5browne's Avatar p5browne 07:34 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post
How many hours are you at? I'm still south of 3,000 hours on my F8500.
The Spectracal C6 Meter doesn't go below 2 decimal points in it's reading - maybe I'm missing something here to get the 4 to 5 points?
Between 500 to 1000 hours - PN64F8500 not my main set.
JimP 08:12 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post
Have you had a chance to measure your black levels yet? I'm on the fence about a 8500 myself.
Sorry to hijack....but I have measured the black levels.

On a totally black screen, it's .0027 ftl....but once you add just a little bit of light, it goes up to .0078 ftl. Personally, you need to figure that the black levels are at .0078 ftl.

My Panasonic VT50's measured black level showed .003 ftl (using Chromapure) and I can tell that on regular content the blacks look better....but then the F8500 is brighter, less ABL and doesn't have the dithering that the VT50 has.
hhaller's Avatar hhaller 08:25 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Sorry to hijack....but I have measured the black levels.

On a totally black screen, it's .0027 ftl....but once you add just a little bit of light, it goes up to .0078 ftl. Personally, you need to figure that the black levels are at .0078 ftl.

My Panasonic VT50's measured black level showed .003 ftl (using Chromapure) and I can tell that on regular content the blacks look better....but then the F8500 is brighter, less ABL and doesn't have the dithering that the VT50 has.
That's odd. 0.0027? I've read about the 8500 getting as low as .0017 on a black screen. Were you using Black Optimizer?

I have read about the 8500's black level fluctuations with ANSI measurements, and I've read some of Zoyd's threads on Samsungs, but during my viewing of the last VE Shootout I noticed that the calibrators didn't put much stock in ANSI measurements. Just one of the reasons why I'd love to have D-Nice hop on one of these threads.

Still not sure what to think about this TV, but I guess if you want a plasma you don't really have too many options left.
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te 09:02 AM 06-26-2014
Those jumps look similar to the early reports of when B/O was turned off on a set. While there was still an increase I don't remember reports of it being that dramatic with B/O on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 02:43 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
Those jumps look similar to the early reports of when B/O was turned off on a set. While there was still an increase I don't remember reports of it being that dramatic with B/O on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
did you mean to say the jumps aren't that dramatic with BO turned OFF?


black levels seem pretty consistent when BO is turned off. with BO turned on, they maintain that same level during bright scenes, but it gets even blacker during black scenes.
igreg's Avatar igreg 07:37 AM 06-27-2014
Does the viewer have a less sharp/detailed picture when going from 51 to 60 to 64 ala blowing up photos? I read where editors said comparisons with the kuro were compromised because it was only 50 inches, thereby giving it an advantage.. Thank you.
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te 03:03 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
did you mean to say the jumps aren't that dramatic with BO turned OFF?


black levels seem pretty consistent when BO is turned off. with BO turned on, they maintain that same level during bright scenes, but it gets even blacker during black scenes.

Should have been more clear, it was the levels he was seeing (.0078). This looks similar to the numbers that calibrators were seeing (if I remember .006x) with BO off. When BO was on I think it was between .001x-.002x with a jump to .004x with Ansi. My memory has been off lately so maybe I am remembering wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg View Post
Does the viewer have a less sharp/detailed picture when going from 51 to 60 to 64 ala blowing up photos? I read where editors said comparisons with the kuro. We're compromised because it was only 50 inches. Thank you.
This all depends on the resolution and quality of the original photo. You will always see more flaws in an image when its "blown up" on a larger screen. Youll see the same thing when you move your photos from your phone to your computer sometimes. What looks sharp on the phone will turn out blurred on the computer screen. For photo editing you should use a calibrated LCD screen
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 03:10 PM 06-27-2014
Click the black levels link in my sig, the 8500 floats black up to 0.0165 ftL during scenes with typical average relative luminance (meaning most of the time).
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 03:44 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Click the black levels link in my sig, the 8500 floats black up to 0.0165 cd/m^2 during scenes with typical average relative luminance (meaning most of the time).
I thought I read there was a firmware update to fix the black float some time back...
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 06:15 PM 06-27-2014
I don't think that's possible given the drive system they use, Samsungs have always had apl dependent black levels. However, a link to some data could persuade me otherwise.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 06:17 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I thought I read there was a firmware update to fix the black float some time back...
ppl have claimed a lot of things were 'fixed' or 'improved' with FW. so far I'd say none of it actually happened. fw updates have not affected picture quality in any noticeable way on my set. they seem to be effecting the smart features, which I never use.
hhaller's Avatar hhaller 10:29 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I don't think that's possible given the drive system they use, Samsungs have always had apl dependent black levels. However, a link to some data could persuade me otherwise.
Robert at VE mentioned a firmware fix for elevated blacks on "another" forum some time ago.

Also, in a recent exchange that I had with D-Nice, he seemed to indicate that the issue had been fixed as well, though it resulted in higher MLLs for the 8500.
charles dodgen's Avatar charles dodgen 10:36 PM 06-27-2014
Hi Zoyd,

I was wondering if you meant .0165fL, not cd/m^2? I noticed in a couple of other posts where you had mentioned an average mll of around .05cd/m^2 for most content. The two PN51F8500's I measured (both mine, 1st panel was replaced due to a slight uniformity issue) seem to have a bit lower mll with most content, between .03 and 04cd/m^2. The lowest mll I've measured is .012cd/m^2, with black optimizer set to "auto", on full black screens and low luminance content, such as the AVS-709 small APL pattern and Mascior's 4% APL pattern. I have read from different sources that the smaller panel size, like mine, tend to have higher mll's than their bigger siblings.

Just recently, I measured the black letterbox bar while playing a blu ray, The Fifth Element, to try to get a better idea of the mll(s) with actual content.

Here are four pics of scenes of varying luminance along with their mll measurements with BO set to "auto", measured with a Colormunki Display profiled for the F8500 with an X-Rite i1Pro 2, using HCFR. These were quickly taken with my phone just to give an idea of the scenes' luminance levels. They, of course, are not representative of how the display actually looks.

picture 1. 43.13
.036 cd/m^2 / .011fL

picture 2. 44.47
.037cd/m^2 / .011fL

picture 3. 48.19
.028cd/m^2 / .008fL

picture 4. 56.56
.017cd/m^2 / .005fL
Attached: 1.jpg (103.2 KB)  2.jpg (96.1 KB)  3.jpg (107.6 KB)  4.jpg (102.7 KB) 
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 04:16 AM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles dodgen View Post
Hi Zoyd,

I was wondering if you meant .0165fL, not cd/m^2? I noticed in a couple of other posts where you had mentioned an average mll of around .05cd/m^2 for most content. The two PN51F8500's I measured (both mine, 1st panel was replaced due to a slight uniformity issue) seem to have a bit lower mll with most content, between .03 and 04cd/m^2. The lowest mll I've measured is .012cd/m^2, with black optimizer set to "auto", on full black screens and low luminance content, such as the AVS-709 small APL pattern and Mascior's 4% APL pattern. I have read from different sources that the smaller panel size, like mine, tend to have higher mll's than their bigger siblings.

Just recently, I measured the black letterbox bar while playing a blu ray, The Fifth Element, to try to get a better idea of the mll(s) with actual content.

Here are four pics of scenes of varying luminance along with their mll measurements with BO set to "auto", measured with a Colormunki Display profiled for the F8500 with an X-Rite i1Pro 2, using HCFR. These were quickly taken with my phone just to give an idea of the scenes' luminance levels. They, of course, are not representative of how the display actually looks.

picture 1. 43.13
.036 cd/m^2 / .011fL

picture 2. 44.47
.037cd/m^2 / .011fL

picture 3. 48.19
.028cd/m^2 / .008fL

picture 4. 56.56
.017cd/m^2 / .005fL
You are right and thanks for the measurements, 0.011 fL is just under what my D series measures (0.014 fL) for typical APLs.
charles dodgen's Avatar charles dodgen 09:30 AM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You are right and thanks for the measurements, 0.011 fL is just under what my D series measures (0.014 fL) for typical APLs.
Thank you, Zoyd, for the wealth of information you provide and all your work with HCFR!
hhaller's Avatar hhaller 11:35 AM 06-28-2014
Every time I feel that I'm ready to pull the trigger on an 8500, I read something on here that gives me pause. This is definitely the most confusing TV that I have ever read about, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus opinion on how well it performs.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 12:17 PM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post
Every time I feel that I'm ready to pull the trigger on an 8500, I read something on here that gives me pause. This is definitely the most confusing TV that I have ever read about, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus opinion on how well it performs.
Get off the pot or piss in it already. The set has been out for 1-1/2 years. Bottom line, if you value the dark room viewing your Kuro Elite provides, you are likely to be disappointed.
hhaller's Avatar hhaller 01:28 PM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
Get off the pot or piss in it already. The set has been out for 1-1/2 years. Bottom line, if you value the dark room viewing your Kuro Elite provides, you are likely to be disappointed.
I don't think anyone would mistake the 8500 for an Elite in dark room viewing.

But given the conflicting #'s and opinions on the 8500 out there...maybe I'll try to hunt down a gently-used Panasonic. Really sucks that it has come to this for plasma fans.
p5browne's Avatar p5browne 10:13 PM 06-28-2014
My Meter Readings show considerable PQ improvement. At over 500 Hours Black is almost Dead Center of the Center Box. All the Colours falling into line as well This set just keeps getting better as the hours of usage increase.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 10:19 PM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post
I don't think anyone would mistake the 8500 for an Elite in dark room viewing.

But given the conflicting #'s and opinions on the 8500 out there...maybe I'll try to hunt down a gently-used Panasonic. Really sucks that it has come to this for plasma fans.
what are your concerns? I think the tv gets ripped apart because it's the best tv on the market(save for perhaps the oled's now that they are out and priced almost cheaply) and the kind of ppl who spend 3k on a display are going to be extraordinarily picky about it.


my 'complaints' about the tv
-input lag is quite noticeable if not in game/pc mode
-blacks are not really black(I would say this of everything made since crt... hopefully oled solves this)
-if you intend to view the tv from outrageous vertical viewing angles, the filter can be annoying(I'm thinking like lieing on the ground 4ft from the screen)
-motion resolution could be better(again, this is something that's been an issue since crt)


I bought mine when st60's, vt60, and zt60's were easy to come by. part of me wonders if I should have either got a zt60 or st60(since I don't actually use mine for 'critical' viewing now anyway), but I'm not disappointed with my purchase at all. I find the tv very pleasant to watch(I do use it almost exclusively in a dark room) most of the time. if you need a new tv, I think it's a no-brainer. if you don't need a new tv, it may make sense to wait on oled if possible.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 10:47 PM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
My Meter Readings show considerable PQ improvement. At over 500 Hours Black is almost Dead Center of the Center Box. All the Colours falling into line as well This set just keeps getting better as the hours of usage increase.
what does this mean exactly?


I've got over 1500hrs on mine, and no appreciable change in PQ. but what's noticeable and what's measurable aren't always the same. so just curious what I might be missing. did the blacks get blacker?
Dianabol5mg's Avatar Dianabol5mg 10:57 PM 06-28-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
Bottom line, if you value the dark room viewing your Kuro Elite provides, you are likely to be disappointed.
I have a 55LHX that goes completely black and I'm very impressed with this television. I think he needs to give it a chance. He needs to get one off HSN and pay a 1/4 of the cost up front for 30 days and then return it if he doesn't like it.


edit: It beats paying full price for it right away.
shadowspawn's Avatar shadowspawn 12:06 AM 06-29-2014
Just giving my subjective response to all of this. I'm on my third 64F8500. I seem to have finally gotten one that is not defective.

They were all pretty good out of the box. And, all pretty similar to one another. But we feel like something has changed as this one was broken in, for the better, after it got over 1000 hours on it.

Let me hasten to say, that I do admit that this may well be just a placebo effect, or an adjustment to the TV effect. But for the last couple of weeks, after it got 1000 hours on it, we've been going "Holy cr*p, that picture looks so great. It totally beats our 8G Kuro".

I've driven my wife crazy doing constant by-eye tweaks to the settings for the last couple of months. But a couple of weeks ago, something seemed to settle down, and I quit tweaking the picture. And, it looks crazy good.

We have no desire for a better picture than this 64F8500.
Dianabol5mg's Avatar Dianabol5mg 12:26 AM 06-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowspawn View Post
Just giving my subjective response to all of this. I'm on my third 64F8500. I seem to have finally gotten one that is not defective.

They were all pretty good out of the box. And, all pretty similar to one another. But we feel like something has changed as this one was broken in, for the better, after it got over 1000 hours on it.

Let me hasten to say, that I do admit that this may well be just a placebo effect, or an adjustment to the TV effect. But for the last couple of weeks, after it got 1000 hours on it, we've been going "Holy cr*p, that picture looks so great. It totally beats our 8G Kuro".

I've driven my wife crazy doing constant by-eye tweaks to the settings for the last couple of months. But a couple of weeks ago, something seemed to settle down, and I quit tweaking the picture. And, it looks crazy good.

We have no desire for a better picture than this 64F8500.

I am right there with you. Over the last couple weeks, same has happened to me. I can also say that my black bars look way better than they did 2 months ago.
p5browne's Avatar p5browne 06:32 PM 06-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
what does this mean exactly?


I've got over 1500hrs on mine, and no appreciable change in PQ. but what's noticeable and what's measurable aren't always the same. so just curious what I might be missing. did the blacks get blacker?
Then there's definitely something wrong with your set. From most of the Forum Members who own this TV, the general response is : Some improvement after 100 Hours, more improvement after 500, and greater still after 1000. My Meter readings agree on the first 2 levels improvements - haven't reached the 3rd yet. The Plasma Glow for the first 400 hours was really annoying me, having me flee up to watch my BLACK LG 55LHX in my room. Now, the Glow is virtually gone, leading to Blacker Blacks and no more fleeing. Now just as happy to watch either, especially 3D on the F8500. (Purchased the pseudo 3D converter for the LHX - it's currently collecting dust!)
hhaller's Avatar hhaller 06:56 PM 06-29-2014
I don't believe it's unusual for blacks to deepen on a plasma as it breaks in. I know it has been documented on Panasonics in the past.
falkirk18's Avatar falkirk18 06:59 PM 06-29-2014
I would like to perform a factory reset, however the reset option under the support menu is greyed out???? Is there a way to make this option available?
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar Cleveland Plasma 07:30 PM 06-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post
Every time I feel that I'm ready to pull the trigger on an 8500, I read something on here that gives me pause. This is definitely the most confusing TV that I have ever read about, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus opinion on how well it performs.
Oh my, LOL . Buy one before they are gone !!
Tags: Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn60f8500 60 Inch 1080p 600hz 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn64f8500 64 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv
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