Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Owners Thread (No Street Price Talk) - Page 214 - AVS Forum
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post #6391 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Thanks for the video. I tried this with my slides with the all white background. You're right, going from off to low there is no change. But on normal viewing there is change.
yeah, I'm not sure at what point exactly it stops changing, higher than I'd normally see in regular video, and that seems to be why I still find eco mode a good solution to reduce brightness. I'm just wondering if it might also be an improvement to reduce noticeable abl behaviour for those hockey watching members that complain about brightness changes.


I dunno. I just found it interesting, because it wasn't what I expected. I would have expected eco mode to reduce brightness uniformly across the board. maybe it's that it's still slightly above the abl limit, so when that kicks in, it does so equally on the off and low mode. if that's the case, then having eco mode set to low should in fact reduce the amount brightness changes when abl kicks in. instead of going from crazy bright to dim, it's only going from kinda bright to dim. I'm guessing then having eco on med or high would totally eliminated any change from abl, since they're already at 'dim', and 'super dim', haha. but I'd rather have the image pop like it does on off or low, than have zero abl on medium with a flat looking image.


I'm still very new to this whole abl thing, I've had plasma for years, but never even heard of ABL until reading about the f8500 handling abl better than most. so if I'm way off on something my apologies. all this is speculation of course
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post #6392 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stile View Post
yes, i have a PRO-150FD as well! that's what i am switching from. was the 150FD the 8th gen kuro, and there was 1 more model that came after, 9th gen?

where do i go to find out my firmware?

can you PM me your settings maybe? this is really driving me crazy, it just looks like movement is 'enhanced' in some way even with judder turned off. maybe it's the WDTV.

thanks for the help!
you can check your fw by going into the menu -->support-->software update


try renaming the input 'pc'. I wouldn't suggest keeping it that way, but it should disable pretty much all processing done by the display. if motion doesn't look 'normal' with the input labelled pc, it probably never will(at least it won't be fixed with some settings). if it does look normal, then I guess you gotta go back through your settings and make sure everything is disabled until it looks right again.


the only thing I can think of to check is what your setting is for 'film mode'. auto1 and auto2 are pretty useless names, and I never remember which one is the 'right' setting, but one is supposed to be used for 30hz and the other for 24hz, so perhaps there's a cadence issue from that. I don't think I've actually watched a bluray on mine yet, so I've never even used cinema smooth, but if you are that could potentially be another thing to experiment with.
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post #6393 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 06:58 PM
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i have film mode turned off. 99% of my viewing is movies/tv shows through my WDTV. the HDMI settings for that are auto and set to match the videos framerate.

im almost tempted to take it in to the store i bought it from and test this on the VT/ZT60s.
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post #6394 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 07:10 PM
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okay, i'm using firmware 1120 as well. to me, it just seems like there is a 'hint' of that judder correction going on. i wonder if the panasonic vt/zt's do this...

also i notice that my 8500 buzzes, maybe the same amount as my pioneer elite... and the screen coating is WAY more reflective than the pioneer. the lights have like a rainbow effect when reflecting in the screen.

so overall you are satisfied with your purchase? did you look at the panasonics? the main issue why i couldn't get the panasonic ZT was because they have a stupid shiny bezel which makes the TV look like it has a white box around it when dark.
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post #6395 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 07:18 PM
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The easiest way to see abl is in tv commercials. Regular tv shows and movies rarely have content that shows up.

There's this one commercial that has like a 4 or 5 inch white strip across the bottom of the screen that stays there the whole time. While above it the main commercial plays but at the end the screen goes mostly white with some text. That bright white strip at the bottem changes as the whole screen turns white.

I guess you could hook your pc up to the tv and use something that can display partial screen white then enlarge that white to full screen. Then you may see your whites dim.
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post #6396 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stile View Post
okay, i'm using firmware 1120 as well. to me, it just seems like there is a 'hint' of that judder correction going on.
It's been mentioned before that there is a bug with the motion judder setting that when set to off it is still sometimes on. I think this was said to occur when Cinema Smooth is turned off. You need to go into the motion judder setting and hit "off" again. This may not be the issue here, but doesn't hurt to try it.
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post #6397 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by koan View Post
It's been mentioned before that there is a bug with the motion judder setting that when set to off it is still sometimes on. I think this was said to occur when Cinema Smooth is turned off. You need to go into the motion judder setting and hit "off" again. This may not be the issue here, but doesn't hurt to try it.
Yep, the bug still exists. Never fixed by Samsung. If you turn CS off, you have to go into MJC, turn it on, then off again, to actually turn it off. You have to do this every time you turn CS off if you do not want MJC to activate while watching 24p material.
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post #6398 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I believe Chad was able to calibrate a 64 inch model around 40fl with a cell light of 16. Others have calibrated at 50fl and higher, depending on size of tv. The calibrations are in this thread:

F8500 Recommended Settings Thread.....
Just 40 ftL? That's a joke considering It was able to get up to 80 ftL back in May 2013. Samsung really went aggressive with the firmware update.

This also means it has no leading edge over the tv/zt60 now. Before most owners choose it cuz of the leading class brightness for day room viewing and/or superior 3D performance but now....it's just a decent performer with decent black levels. That sucks...I was really hoping to have the superior brightness for 3D movies.
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post #6399 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ahab View Post
Thanks for the info. Most of the time not at all noticeable. Even then the rest of the image looks so fantastic that I don't think I'll have much trouble living with it.

But am rather concerned about the rainbow effect. If I can't get used to that in the next couple of days am probably going to have to return the set. Hate the thought of having to go to LED but may have no choice.

Wish my Sony Grand Wega hadn't died on me last week. No problems other than poor black levels for the 10 years I used that set. Was hoping it would last until 4K and OLED had more time to work out the bugs inherent in any new technology.
Grand Wega? Oh god...viewing angles on rear projection tvs were a nightmare.....never again
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post #6400 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 10:44 PM
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okay, so after some reading it looks like the F8500 has issues with 1080p/24fps content, specifically displaying proper film motion cadence, unless you turn film mode on. unless it has been fixed with a firmware update? (the review i am reading is a year old).

if i turn film mode on (i only have cinema smooth as an option when playing 24p files off my WDTV) and i don't see any kind of difference. but when i turn it off, motion judder control is turned on for some reason (i see from the above post it is a bug and you have to turn it on/off again).

this is really frustrating, as movement in videos looks slightly off compared to my pioneer elite plasma.

so what exactly is film mode/cinema smooth supposed to do? i can't really see a difference turning it on.

i'm probably going to take in my WDTV box to the store and try playing some videos off the ZT60 there to see if it has the same issues. really don't want to have to switch to the ZT60 as the silver bezel is very distracting, and even with the lights out you can see a silverish outline around the TV.

from CNET: "Unfortunately, you do have to trade away true film cadence if you want the absolute deepest black levels the F8500 can deliver. When I switched the Film Mode setting from Off to Cinema Smooth, those inky blacks got slightly brighter, reaching about the level of the ST60 and the VT50 (from 0.002 fL to 0.004, if you're counting). That's not much of a jump, so film cadence purists might not mind making it. On the other hand, of course, all of the other sets delivered correct cadence without sacrificing black levels."

Last edited by stile; 07-06-2014 at 11:07 PM.
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post #6401 of 7694 Old 07-06-2014, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stile View Post
okay, so after some reading it looks like the F8500 has issues with 1080p/24fps content, specifically displaying proper film motion cadence, unless you turn film mode on. unless it has been fixed with a firmware update? (the review i am reading is a year old).

if i turn film mode on (i only have cinema smooth as an option when playing 24p files off my WDTV) and i don't see any kind of difference. but when i turn it off, motion judder control is turned on for some reason (i see from the above post it is a bug and you have to turn it on/off again).

this is really frustrating, as movement in videos looks slightly off compared to my pioneer elite plasma.

so what exactly is film mode/cinema smooth supposed to do? i can't really see a difference turning it on.

i'm probably going to take in my WDTV box to the store and try playing some videos off the ZT60 there to see if it has the same issues. really don't want to have to switch to the ZT60 as the silver bezel is very distracting, and even with the lights out you can see a silverish outline around the TV.

from CNET: "Unfortunately, you do have to trade away true film cadence if you want the absolute deepest black levels the F8500 can deliver. When I switched the Film Mode setting from Off to Cinema Smooth, those inky blacks got slightly brighter, reaching about the level of the ST60 and the VT50 (from 0.002 fL to 0.004, if you're counting). That's not much of a jump, so film cadence purists might not mind making it. On the other hand, of course, all of the other sets delivered correct cadence without sacrificing black levels."
Cinema Smooth uses 4:4 cadence with 24p material, so it is 96 hz (4x24) and is suppose to provide less judder. Turning CS off uses a 2:3 cadence which means you have to throw in an odd extra frame which creates more judder.
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post #6402 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 12:24 AM
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Straight up... I'm thinking about getting one of these 64" 8500's to replace my 50" kuro elite pro 101fd. Will it be a worthy upgrade, or will the PQ just end up disappointing me?

My elite has been calibrated and is by far the best tv I've ever seen. I want to upgrade for the bigger real estate, and brighter daytime/3d blu ray experience.

I am extremely picky when it comes to PQ, and am hoping some 101/kpr500 owners that own both can chime in.

Thank you.
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post #6403 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 02:15 AM
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Just 40 ftL? That's a joke considering It was able to get up to 80 ftL back in May 2013. Samsung really went aggressive with the firmware update.
50ftL is in calibrated day mode. I think some of the less accurate modes are the one that do much brighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stile View Post
from CNET: "Unfortunately, you do have to trade away true film cadence if you want the absolute deepest black levels the F8500 can deliver. When I switched the Film Mode setting from Off to Cinema Smooth, those inky blacks got slightly brighter, reaching about the level of the ST60 and the VT50 (from 0.002 fL to 0.004, if you're counting). That's not much of a jump, so film cadence purists might not mind making it. On the other hand, of course, all of the other sets delivered correct cadence without sacrificing black levels."
Reportedly the black level increase with Cinema Smooth enabled was fixed with a firmware update if that's what you're concerned about.

Here is a review from HD Guru which confirms that the latest firmware as of the writing of the review (Nov 8, 2013) did not have that issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Guru review
There have been reports of a black level increase when switching Film mode Off to Cinema Smooth for 96 Hz playback. Samsung claims its latest firmware update eliminated the problem and we did not observed an increase in black level when Cinema Smooth was engaged, post firmware update.

Last edited by Stereodude; 07-09-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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post #6404 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 07:48 AM
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For those looking for ABL (if you don't already notice it, I can't imagine why you'd want to look for it) True Blood is a good place to find it (if you can stomach the show). I notice it at least once an episode. It's most noticeable in shot transitions from very dark to less dark. Specifically in blacks. It'll take a 10th of a second after the transition, but the black level will jump up across the picture. My previous D7000 series did the same thing most noticeably with that particular show.

80ftl is ridiculously bright and I can't imagine even wanting something that bright unless your tv is sitting out in an open field in the middle of the day or something. With the most current firmware, my pdp is capable of getting way brighter than I could comfortably watch even in the middle of the day with my window shades up.
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post #6405 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
50ftL is in calibrated day mode. I think some of the less accurate modes are the one that do much brighter.


Reportedly the black level increase with Cinema Smooth enabled was fixed with a firmware update if that's what you're concerned about.
yes, that's what i was talking about.

question for you: my WDTV media player outputs video at 1080/24p -- for instance i was watching the Sopranos last night and that was the native frame rate. does this mean i should be turning on Cinema Smooth? or is that *only* when i play blu-ray discs from a blu-ray player?
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post #6406 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mightymouseusf View Post
For those looking for ABL (if you don't already notice it, I can't imagine why you'd want to look for it) True Blood is a good place to find it (if you can stomach the show). I notice it at least once an episode. It's most noticeable in shot transitions from very dark to less dark. Specifically in blacks. It'll take a 10th of a second after the transition, but the black level will jump up across the picture. My previous D7000 series did the same thing most noticeably with that particular p.
That's sounds to more like floating blacks than typical abl on full whites?
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post #6407 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stile View Post
question for you: my WDTV media player outputs video at 1080/24p -- for instance i was watching the Sopranos last night and that was the native frame rate. does this mean i should be turning on Cinema Smooth? or is that *only* when i play blu-ray discs from a blu-ray player?
I would think so if you want it displayed without a 3:2 cadence.
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post #6408 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stile View Post
yes, that's what i was talking about.



question for you: my WDTV media player outputs video at 1080/24p -- for instance i was watching the Sopranos last night and that was the native frame rate. does this mean i should be turning on Cinema Smooth? or is that *only* when i play blu-ray discs from a blu-ray player?

If the file you have isn't encoded for 24p then I would think it would defeat the entire purpose of using 24p output. Are these direct Blu-Ray images/rips? Reencoded mkvs?


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post #6409 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 01:32 PM
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That's sounds to more like floating blacks than typical abl on full whites?
I thought the floating blacks issue was resolved with a previous firmware update.

Also, the D7000 wasn't known to have floating blacks. At the time the forum was calling it brightness pops and later it was attributed ABL. Of course we could all be wrong as I'm just going on forum contributors and not any particular verified reference.
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post #6410 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 02:53 PM
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Just picked up a 51" F8500 last week and I can't seem to get 3D to work. I am using a Sony BDP-S590 (2012 model) 3D Blue Ray connected via HDMI to my Denon AVR-1913 receiver. Which is connected HDMI to the TV. I am trying to play the movie How to train a dragon and the 3D play menu option says something to the effect I need a 3D enabled system. The Blue Ray player and TV support 3D and the receiver supports 3D pass through. I must be missing something as to why I can't play 3D.
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post #6411 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 03:10 PM
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Possibly HDMI cable not rated for it?
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post #6412 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 03:45 PM
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I know for sure the blue ray to receiver cable is from Blue Jeans and is 3D rated. The one from the receiver to the TV I believe is as well but need to check it this evening.
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post #6413 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duanec View Post
Just picked up a 51" F8500 last week and I can't seem to get 3D to work. I am using a Sony BDP-S590 (2012 model) 3D Blue Ray connected via HDMI to my Denon AVR-1913 receiver. Which is connected HDMI to the TV. I am trying to play the movie How to train a dragon and the 3D play menu option says something to the effect I need a 3D enabled system. The Blue Ray player and TV support 3D and the receiver supports 3D pass through. I must be missing something as to why I can't play 3D.
Have you tried plugging the blu-ray player directly into the TV to see what happens (for the sake of testing)?
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post #6414 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 06:16 PM
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I would think so if you want it displayed without a 3:2 cadence.
okay.. it seems to add a little bit of some kind of motion smoothing to it, which makes it look worse for some reason.
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If the file you have isn't encoded for 24p then I would think it would defeat the entire purpose of using 24p output. Are these direct Blu-Ray images/rips? Reencoded mkvs?
i'm trying out a mix of files.. all MKV blu-ray and TV rips. the WDTV outputs the video to match the encodings playback. i'm actually going to take in my media player to the store and try playing it back on a ZT60 tomorrow to see the difference.
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post #6416 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 06:20 PM
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Possibly HDMI cable not rated for it?
i'm using your calibration settings for my TV from the settings thread.. they look great, thanks
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post #6417 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 07:14 PM
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Have you tried plugging the blu-ray player directly into the TV to see what happens (for the sake of testing)?
Just tried this and it went into 3D mode. So I'm down to the receiver or HDMI receiver cable.
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post #6418 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 07:22 PM
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Just tried this and it went into 3D mode. So I'm down to the receiver or HDMI receiver cable.
My guess is the receiver not being capable of 3D.
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post #6419 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 07:57 PM
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anyone know why all of a sudden when i change the black optimizer mode in movie it changes it in standard mode as well for some reason and vice versa?

if i put black optmizer in Dark Room in movie mode, Standard changes to dark room as well... i have no idea why this is happening all of a sudden, even after doing a reset it still does it.
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post #6420 of 7694 Old 07-07-2014, 08:25 PM
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anyone know why all of a sudden when i change the black optimizer mode in movie it changes it in standard mode as well for some reason and vice versa?

if i put black optmizer in Dark Room in movie mode, Standard changes to dark room as well... i have no idea why this is happening all of a sudden, even after doing a reset it still does it.

You probably have the "Apply Picture Mode" setting for "All Sources" instead of the "Current Source"...
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