Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Owners Thread (No Street Price Talk) - Page 299 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8941 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
I found setting contrast level to 95, and then setting cell light to between 15-17, most comfortable at night with some moderate light in the room.
Exactly the same settings I use in the same environment.
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post #8942 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 10:31 AM
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Contrast levels can be deceiving. I'd much rather watch a plasma with a black level at .003 with a contrast ratio of 20,000 than an LCD with a black level of .10 and with the same contrast ratio.

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post #8943 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
lowering cell light absolutely changes the measured on/off contrast ratio. it does also lower measured ANSI contrast. I don't know how exactly it transfers over to real world viewing, other than the headaches it does or does not cause.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow, to go from contrast measured at 20,000:1 to 12,000:1 after calibration and see that as an improvement, but it is! for some of us anyway.

the way I justify it is that whether the panel has 8000:1 CR or 80:000:1 it still only has X number of gradations. the higher the CR the larger the steps between gradations. good for seeing shadow details, not good for banding. it's pretty unusual to worry about CR being too high, and causing banding, but it can be so high that our eyes having difficulty coping. when I load up the APL clipping pattern, I am unable to see bars 17 and 18 flash. but if I block the bright parts of the pattern with my hands, I can then see 17 and 18 flashing. the CR of the panel is actually higher than my eyes can make out. i'm seeing 'black crush' that isn't actually there. it's just like losing your night vision when an on-coming vehicle's headlights get in your eyes. the bright whites on the f8500 are so bright it kills my 'night vision'. makes blacks look super inky, but so much so that I lose shadow detail. for me, this happens even with the peak luminance around 37ftl. looks like I need to drop it down back to 30-32ftl. of course everyone will have didn't experiences with this, and i'm guessing from how my eyes behave during night driving that I may be especially sensitive to it. I believe I read somewhere that 'average' human eyesight has what would related to an ansi cr of 4000-10000:1. right now my f8500 is measuring just under 8000:1 ansi, so it seems reasonable to me that this could be an issue.
So how does the cell light effect ansi contrast and your contrast settings in general? By lowering the cell light doesn't is lower everything equally so the difference between blacks and whites should still be the same distance just at a lower brightness level or is it just lwowering the peak brightness but doesn't the contrast setting pretty much already do that?

On a Pansonic there is no cell light so what I am trying to figure out is what exactly is happening here with the cell light then the other settings. On a Panasonic plasma you would set the contrast at 60 and still get an unbelievable contrast ration. On the Samsung you set your contrast to 95, don't touch it but adjust the cell light. If there was no cell light setting, would you just lower the contrast for night viewing which leads to my question of what is the difference.

And like you, I like a dimmer picture in a dark room. On my projector the highest contrast level is 50 but for my viewing I need to lower it to around 30-35 to look like what I would call an acceptable dark room picture.

Don't movies theaters target an ftl of around 15-20?
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post #8944 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 01:22 PM
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Netflix, pure visual quality: Has anyone compared roku3, samsung app, ps4, and xbone to see which has the best visual quality? or are they all equalish?


Been too busy fiddling with the tv settings to check them all yet

I know about the 5.1 issue....
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post #8945 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JL-F1 View Post
Netflix, pure visual quality: Has anyone compared roku3, samsung app, ps4, and xbone to see which has the best visual quality? or are they all equalish?


Been too busy fiddling with the tv settings to check them all yet

I know about the 5.1 issue....
Purchased a roku3 due to the 5.1 issue. Unfortunately, the Netflix app's video quality is much better than roku's. Very aggravating Samsung/Netflix can't get their act together on the audio.

Last edited by bmcn; 11-21-2014 at 02:03 PM.
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post #8946 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Purchased a roku3 due to the 5.1 issue. Unfortunately, the Netflix app's video quality is much better than roku's. Very aggravating Samsung/Netflix can't get their act together.
How can the Netflix app on a roku 3 stream a lower quality video than the Netflix app in the 8500's Smarthub? Both apps are accessing the same Netflix server where the same HD 1080 movie is being streamed. I've heard that the roku 3's hdmi color space outputs RGB instead of YCbCr, and you may have to adjust your 8500's hdmi black level accordingly for roku 3 streaming.
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post #8947 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
So how does the cell light effect ansi contrast and your contrast settings in general? By lowering the cell light doesn't is lower everything equally so the difference between blacks and whites should still be the same distance just at a lower brightness level or is it just lwowering the peak brightness but doesn't the contrast setting pretty much already do that?

On a Pansonic there is no cell light so what I am trying to figure out is what exactly is happening here with the cell light then the other settings. On a Panasonic plasma you would set the contrast at 60 and still get an unbelievable contrast ration. On the Samsung you set your contrast to 95, don't touch it but adjust the cell light. If there was no cell light setting, would you just lower the contrast for night viewing which leads to my question of what is the difference.

And like you, I like a dimmer picture in a dark room. On my projector the highest contrast level is 50 but for my viewing I need to lower it to around 30-35 to look like what I would call an acceptable dark room picture.

Don't movies theaters target an ftl of around 15-20?
cell light doesn't lower MLL, only peak whites.

my projector right now is set up for 7-8ftl. with a big screen, less light is still very pleasing, especially in a 'movie theater' like atmosphere. I believe they target about 14-16ftl as a 'standard'. I honestly find 14ftl with my projector 'nasty' looking. way too bright.

lowering the contrast is the 'normal' way to reduce peak whites on a plasma, but if you go much lower than 95 on a Samsung, it throws off the 10pt controls to a point where it's difficult to calibrate. I did one with contrast at 90, cell 20, eco off, and got around 32ftl, but it took forever to get good greyscale. pt 9 was actually controlling 100% white, pt 8 was closer to 90%, pt 7 close to 80%, but pt 4 was basically right in the middle of 40 and 50% and trying to get the 'top half' and 'bottom half' to both look good was very difficult. I probably ran 100 sweeps before I was satisfied with it.

so it's become my preference to use cell light, or eco(but eco only gives you one good dimming level, low).

still, none of these things ever improved my MLL's. the only thing I've done that lowered blacks was the panel tweak. before the tweak I was 'averaging' about 0.011cd/m2 with a 'best' reading of .009cd/m2. after the tweak I was getting averages of .007cd/m2 and a best reading of 0.005cd/m2. it also greatly reduced the level the blacks 'floated' to. pre-tweak was around .070cd/m2, post-tweak is around .033cd/m2. my ansi contrast pre-tweak(after calibration) was around 3500:1, now it's 7800:1. on/off contrast changed from around 10,000:1 to just over 15,000:1 as well.

now that I have the darker blacks, i'm thinking I can get away with a 30ftl calibration again, and won't have to worry about the blacks starting to look 'greyish' with mid-apl content. pre-tweak, my 30ftl calibrations had on/off cr's around 7500-8000:1 and ansi contrast barely above 3000:1.

I think if I can maintain about a 10,000:1 on/off and 5000:1 ansi, i'll be loving how 'contrasty' the picture looks, and the 30ftl peak brightness will be nicer on my eyes than the 36ftl I currently have.

but in all honesty, i'm starting to get pretty tired of all this calibrating, especially when I watch movies on the projector anyway. so i'm not sure when i'll get around to doing this, I may just turn the cell light down a couple ticks and call it good enough for now.
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post #8948 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
Contrast levels can be deceiving. I'd much rather watch a plasma with a black level at .003 with a contrast ratio of 20,000 than an LCD with a black level of .10 and with the same contrast ratio.
oh hell yeah, I think that's obvious for most plasma-lovers.

but the debate is, which would you prefer between these two?
1) MLL: .003, PEAK: 140
2) MLL: .003, PEAK: 100

obviously #1 would have higher CR, and since the black level doesn't change, there's no advantage there. but what i'm finding is the 140 peak whites(which probably gets up to 250+ in some scenes when ABL doesn't kick in) is simply too bright. it's blasting my retinas, and causing me to be unable to see details in the shadows, even though the display is still showing them.

I've certainly noticed this with my projector, that on/off contrast is VERY important to me, my eyes seem to adjust quickly, and dark scenes look 'grey' if it can't display a very low black level(my jvc measures under .005cd/m2 right now and I STILL wish it were darker). but the ansi contrast on the other hand does not seem important to me. my projector measures under 200:1 ANSI, and I think it looks awesome! watching bright scenes with dark accents looks great. the blacks still appear dark to me, and the image has a lot of 'pop'. the only place it kind of sucks is when it's a generally dark scene with bright accents. but that's because it's raising the MLL to 'cheap lcd' levels, not because the CR is less.

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post #8949 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
How can the Netflix app on a roku 3 stream a lower quality video than the Netflix app in the 8500's Smarthub? Both apps are accessing the same Netflix server where the same HD 1080 movie is being streamed. I've heard that the roku 3's hdmi color space outputs RGB instead of YCbCr, and you may have to adjust your 8500's hdmi black level accordingly for roku 3 streaming.
Different video processor chips?
F8500's Color space setting = low
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post #8950 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Different video processor chips?
F8500's Color space setting = low
Perhaps your 8500's picture settings are not matched between its hdmi inputs (for a roku 3) and the smarthub interface (embedded apps)? That can certainly produce a visual difference between picture modes. I have an Oppo 105 blu ray player, which has an embedded Netflix app that I can run, and I cannot see any discernible difference between the video output of a Netflix movie produced from the app in the 105 player as opposed to the 8500's smarthub Flix app.
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post #8951 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
Perhaps your 8500's picture settings are not matched between its hdmi inputs (for a roku 3) and the smarthub interface (embedded apps)? That can certainly produce a visual difference between picture modes. I have an Oppo 105 blu ray player, which has an embedded Netflix app that I can run, and I cannot see any discernible difference between the video output of a Netflix movie produced from the app in the 105 player as opposed to the 8500's smarthub Flix app.
Should have said 8500's HDMI black level = low.

Using the Roku, the AVR appears to have same video mode (HDMI black level) = Auto as when using HTPC w/video card = RGB Limited.

This combination appears to be correct when using the HTPC and I understand the app does not run video through the AVR

My guess is the Roku's processor is inferior to the Oppo's, or maybe it's a cable issue!

Update: while using Roku changed 8500 HDMI black level to Normal and Netflix looks better (brighter) than with low setting. It's obvious I still can't nail the correct HDMI settings among HTPC, AVR and 8500. Thanks again Dan.

Update 2: With roku3 and changing the 8500's HDMI color space to Normal (0-255) Netflix is brighter with good shadow detail. From reading it seems the Roku3 outputs RGB low (16-235) so I don't understand why the 8500's HDMI Normal looks better.

Can anyone point to a title in Netflix I can use to verify I'm not crushing black levels when using roku3?

Nevermind, will copy the AVS HD 709 Black clipping clip to a USB drive and try it with Roku.

Update 3: Using Roku to play the Black clipping clip yields the same Brightness setting of (48) when clip is played through HTPC. So either the Netflix app delivers better video than Netflix on roku or my HDMI black level combination with the 3 devices is flawed. Anyone hazard a guess which is it?

Update 4: Apparently different Netflix devices may use different content delivery networks, and the devices may use different streaming methods, i.e., fixed vs. adaptive. Perhaps different codecs are involved.

With the roku3 an obvious ramping of video quality occurs during the first few seconds of a selection, and I've yet to notice this with the Netflix app viewing the same content during the same time of day. Both are 1080, but I think the Netflix app delivers 'cleaner' video than Netflix on Roku, just don't understand why.

Update 5: One of best things about the internet is if one searches long enough there's always someone with the 'right answer'.

All streamers are not equal
Streaming quality also varies from device to device. The best quality I’ve seen is from the Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, which has a video processing chipset that was specifically picked because it enhances the quality of streamed content. In comparison, the Roku 3 makes films look noticeably softer.
http://hdguru.com/blu-ray-vs-hdtv-st...arison-review/

On to the next deep dive....calibrating using an i1D3 and HCFR.

Last edited by bmcn; 11-22-2014 at 06:50 PM.
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post #8952 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 03:55 PM
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MSNBC banner problems?

Does anyone here watch MSNBC? A couple of years ago, they changed their banner to bright white. It is a static, pure white banner across the top of the screen that stays there all the time except for commercial breaks. I usually watch MSNBC about 2 hours a day. I am concerned about it because I had a Pioneer Kuro that the MSNBC banner caused burn-in on, however, I was sort of irresponsible because I left it paused with the TV on for long periods of time. Should I be concerned about the banner causing burn-in on the F8500 with ordinary watching, not making the same mistake of leaving the TV on while paused?

Thanks!

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post #8953 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 05:32 PM
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What panel tweak have you done? Are you referring to picture settings tweaks or physical tweaks on the hardware itself? Have you found any settings changes that can lower the MLL? And pardon my ignorance but can you explain to me how ECO Mode relates to ABL and the MLL on the F8500?

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post #8954 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kronius View Post
Does anyone here watch MSNBC? A couple of years ago, they changed their banner to bright white. It is a static, pure white banner across the top of the screen that stays there all the time except for commercial breaks. I usually watch MSNBC about 2 hours a day. I am concerned about it because I had a Pioneer Kuro that the MSNBC banner caused burn-in on, however, I was sort of irresponsible because I left it paused with the TV on for long periods of time. Should I be concerned about the banner causing burn-in on the F8500 with ordinary watching, not making the same mistake of leaving the TV on while paused?
How much other content do you watch?
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post #8955 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 08:40 PM
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How much other content do you watch?
I'd say about 2 hours of MSNBC and 2 hours of other stuff typically.
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post #8956 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 09:29 PM
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I hate to say it, but I think you're about one week too late. I think they're completely sold out everywhere...
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2013, the best year to buy a new plasma
-F8500
-S60
-ST60
-VT60
-ZT60

need I say more?
they are still available in the Great White North

I meant to say it's the last chance to grab a plasma TV...my parents bought a XBR6 which was comparable to Kuro Elite's on clearance in price...and that was a wrong decision so I'm making sure I don't do the same this time around....hence still looking answers to my question.

-----------------
I'm interested in buying the 64" and I'll shoot off a few questions:

Is buzzing widespread? Any FW or setting/calibration to minimize it? Is it practically on every panel and just depends on how sensitive (or old) your ears are?

Is burn-in still a concern in 2014? Are there anti-burn-in measures and is it completely foolproof? How much of a PQ penalty does it take? I'm pretty conscious of IR/burn-in but my roommate may not be...so I'll be a bit paranoid.

How's the dithering on this set? Any way to "fix" it or will I just get used to it after a day or two?

How robust is the Smart TV for streaming contents off a NAS and PC via DLNA/uPnP/Samba? MKV support? How's the transcoding?

In terms of gaming, there's apparently the PC input trick which puts it to ~50ms...so that's comparable to a half-decent online gaming experience with 50ms latency? Or is control input latency perceived differently from network latency?


Specs of the quad-core? Is it a typical mobile processor found in samsung phones/tablets? It has no bearing on PQ and only helps with SmartTV functions right?

Wifi 5GHz N? AC?

Any chance a laptop/bike lock can secure this down to a stand that wont absolutely kill its aesthetics. This thing belongs in an AV museum and can't be replaced now that it's officially out of production so I'll be taking anti-theft measures.
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post #8957 of 10740 Old 11-21-2014, 11:39 PM
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Is buzzing widespread? Any FW or setting/calibration to minimize it? Is it practically on every panel and just depends on how sensitive (or old) your ears are?
Dude, there are probably 2,000 posts about buzzing in this thread, plus a whole other thread solely dedicated to the issue. Anyway, based on the research I did, I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question.

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Is burn-in still a concern in 2014? Are there anti-burn-in measures and is it completely foolproof? How much of a PQ penalty does it take? I'm pretty conscious of IR/burn-in but my roommate may not be...so I'll be a bit paranoid.
Again, there is another thread dedicated to burn-in.

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Any chance a laptop/bike lock can secure this down to a stand that wont absolutely kill its aesthetics.
Can anyone really tell you what you will find aesthetically pleasing?
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post #8958 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 05:23 AM
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Any chance a laptop/bike lock can secure this down to a stand that wont absolutely kill its aesthetics. This thing belongs in an AV museum and can't be replaced now that it's officially out of production so I'll be taking anti-theft measures.
If someone wanted to steal the TV and you chained down the stand, all they would need to do is unscrew the TV from the stand.
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post #8959 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 07:35 AM
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Hey guys I'm pretty new to the forum and just got my 60F8500! Crazy story here...so I was looking for the 8500 everywhere with no luck. The guy at Best Buy even called Indiana(I'm in VA) to locate one, no luck. I settled for a Vizio M series. Once I compared it to my 2010 720p plasma, I decided to take M series back and ordered a 5350 from Costco. Yesterday I just happen to walk into Crutchfield to look at receivers and they had the last one, sealed in the box. For $1499, I couldn't pass up the deal. I left my cell light, brightness and contrast about halfway up for the next few days to break the tv in, is that ok?


My dilemma:the Vizio M series is going back to best buy and I have a 5350 on the way from Costco. Crazy thoughts are telling me to keep the 5350 since they are phasing out plasma. So, should I keep or return the 5350?
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post #8960 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 08:49 AM
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My dilemma:the Vizio M series is going back to best buy and I have a 5350 on the way from Costco. Crazy thoughts are telling me to keep the 5350 since they are phasing out plasma. So, should I keep or return the 5350?

I would give serious consideration to keeping the 5350B as a back up since plasmas will no longer be available and the ultimate success of OLED in the market is still somewhat in doubt.
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post #8961 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 09:24 AM
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I'd say about 2 hours of MSNBC and 2 hours of other stuff typically.
IMHO, that sounds iffy. I haven't subjected my F8500 to anywhere that sort of "abuse" so I can't really give you any sort insight on how it might fare.
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post #8962 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 09:58 AM
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Hello, I recently purchased my first Plasma TV the Samsung PN60F8500. I received my first one however it had the annoying loud buzz sound and also at times it would have "screen tearing" when watching Ice Hockey and such in HD. I hurried up and got a replacement one and I just got the new one last night. I set up the TV and connect it, then changed the picture settings to the CNET picture settings that David used when testing this TV for now. I then put the TV on a HD channel to let it run for a few hours then turned the tv off for a little bit then turn back on and again run its cycle over n over.

At first when I turn the TV on it had small white spots that would pop up here and there in different areas of the screen but recently I don't see them occurring *I noticed them for maybe the first one hour of the TV being on*. Anyone know if this issue does go away after it burns up the gas and the TV warms up? It did go away as stated so far just hoping it stays away forever..

The TV also did have at times what appeared to be screen blurr *kinda like a tear* for refreshing possibly, do these things stops in time with more wear and tear on the TV I wasn't paying much attention to the TV and only seen this happen once or twice.

I know the TV needs to be used for roughly 100-200 hours to fully break in but I'm just wondering if these issues I have will stop at that point or seem like a defect..

The new TV does have the plasma buzz but less noticeable and more acceptable as it's just the plasma buzz now when close to the unit.

I am just curious to as if I am breaking in the TV correctly and doing what I need to do..

I know there are many topics on this and I would rather just get quick replies than to tear through 5 different topics finding my answers n over 1000 pages.

Please no flaming as I am new and wanting to do the best for my investment which means asking informational questions.
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post #8963 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 10:34 AM
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post #8964 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 10:50 AM
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I'm using my smart phone app which does not have this feature must be website only.
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post #8965 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 10:54 AM
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There is a "Search this Thread" link on the banner before the first post on each forum page. Clicking this link brings up a window for entering keywords and a link to "Advanced Search" where User Name and Date range can be specified.

Thanks for replying how to search a forum instead of just taking three seconds to help. Good one, please next time if people are asking for help just ignore them.
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post #8966 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 10:56 AM
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Anyone recommend a Bluetooth keyboard that works with this set?
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post #8967 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 11:00 AM
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I'm using my smart phone app which does not have this feature must be website only.
Breaking in the TV has absolutely nothing to do with how the TV will act in the future. The only reason to really break in a plasma is to limit the amount of drift in color you get if you will be calibrating the TV.

Besides for calibration reasons, breaking in a plasma and running slides will do nothing to prevent IR or burn in or anything else for that reason in the future. It won't prevent anything. If you see problems with your panel in the beginning then your TV has problems. There should be no white flashing dots for an hour after startup, etc.
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post #8968 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 11:05 AM
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Breaking in the TV has absolutely nothing to do with how the TV will act in the future. The only reason to really break in a plasma is to limit the amount of drift in color you get if you will be calibrating the TV.



Besides for calibration reasons, breaking in a plasma and running slides will do nothing to prevent IR or burn in or anything else for that reason in the future. It won't prevent anything. If you see problems with your panel in the beginning then your TV has problems. There should be no white flashing dots for an hour after startup, etc.

Thanks, once I get home I will turn the tv on and make sure they are gone and are not seen. If they are I will be in contact with Samsung for a resolution.

Thank you!
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post #8969 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 11:24 AM
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Anyone recommend a Bluetooth keyboard that works with this set?
I have a Microsoft Wedge Keyboard and it works perfectly.
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post #8970 of 10740 Old 11-22-2014, 11:29 AM
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they are still available in the Great White North
says the guy in vancouver, haha. i'm from winterpeg, manisnowba, i'm not sure about great or north, but we sure are white right now...

models have dried up around here, for the most part. i'd be shocked if any were around for boxing day, looks like black friday might be the last chance here for anything NIB. every market will vary of course.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn60f8500 60 Inch 1080p 600hz 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn64f8500 64 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv
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