Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Owners Thread (No Street Price Talk) - Page 403 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12061 of 12626 Old 05-26-2015, 03:41 PM
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I referred to panel voltages Vs and Vsc... Zoyd knows a lot about that. This is just for clarify the level of madness... I opened my TV to try to fix the problem. Changing brightness level will not help believe me, neither lowering cell value... And, of course, dynamic off and power saving off... I think to have the worst level of floating black, that should have been fixed with an old firmware, and if Samsung considers fixed this sh*t it's ridiculous... I started to think my logic board sw did not update for some reason, so I'd like to know what logic sw do you have (from 737 menu)
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post #12062 of 12626 Old 05-26-2015, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Python357 View Post
I referred to panel voltages Vs and Vsc... Zoyd knows a lot about that. This is just for clarify the level of madness... I opened my TV to try to fix the problem. Changing brightness level will not help believe me, neither lowering cell value... And, of course, dynamic off and power saving off... I think to have the worst level of floating black, that should have been fixed with an old firmware, and if Samsung considers fixed this sh*t it's ridiculous... I started to think my logic board sw did not update for some reason, so I'd like to know what logic sw do you have (from 737 menu)
You've tried everything that I would have. I was going to ask if the problem started up when you did the voltage adjustments but apparently you did that to correct the problem.
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post #12063 of 12626 Old 05-26-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Python357 View Post
Have to measure it, but on ANSI checker I had 0,021cd/m2 black with Vtweak and 0.028cd with V@ default
I asked because a 25% APL will give the highest black level the panel will generate, compare that to a typical value of 0.03 cd/m^2.
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post #12064 of 12626 Old 05-26-2015, 10:27 PM
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"highest black level" do you mean highest cd/m2 value (so more "gray" black) or lowest (deepest black)? Can you link me a 25% APL pattern? Anyway I've seen that, if I am on a Windows black wallpaper, and open a white window, the black raises a lot when I enlarge the window to 75% of the screen, and the ABL starts to work. When this happens, I suddenly iconize the white window to leave the black wallpaper alone, and here it is, the "delay" in returning deep black is there for up to 2 seconds....
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post #12065 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 03:57 AM
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^ that sounds pretty usual.
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post #12066 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Python357 View Post
"highest black level" do you mean highest cd/m2 value (so more "gray" black) or lowest (deepest black)? Can you link me a 25% APL pattern? Anyway I've seen that, if I am on a Windows black wallpaper, and open a white window, the black raises a lot when I enlarge the window to 75% of the screen, and the ABL starts to work. When this happens, I suddenly iconize the white window to leave the black wallpaper alone, and here it is, the "delay" in returning deep black is there for up to 2 seconds....
Display this from usb stick and measure the black level, it should be close to 0.03 cd/m^2. If it is then your panel has normal black lift with APLs that exceed 10%.
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post #12067 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dingleberryinc View Post
^ that sounds pretty usual.
Do you find "usual" the delay in returning deep black after a bright image?
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post #12068 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 12:09 PM
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Display this from usb stick and measure the black level, it should be close to 0.03 cd/m^2. If it is then your panel has normal black lift with APLs that exceed 10%.
Ok I made measure... and the result is somewhat worrying:
with a full black screen I got a 0.011cd/m2 (0.0031ftL) (I think normal here, with the Vtweak I got 0,009)

with your pattern: 0.115cd/m2 (0.0336ftL) (I hope you swapped measure unit or I am in trouble here... black is more than TEN TIMES the mll)

just for comparison, I measured the black level of the movie black bars in a scene they looked horribly bright to me: starting of film "sunshine" (2007) basically at 00:01:00 there is a sun in the center of the screen with all yellow/brown around: black level is 0.069 (0.0202) : the bars appear really gray here
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post #12069 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Python357 View Post
Do you find "usual" the delay in returning deep black after a bright image?

Yes. About 2 seconds for both steps of brightness reduction.
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post #12070 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dingleberryinc View Post
Yes. About 2 seconds for both steps of brightness reduction.
Exactly. There are 2 steps, the second one only if BO is on
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post #12071 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Python357 View Post

with your pattern: 0.115cd/m2 (0.0336ftL) (I hope you swapped measure unit or I am in trouble here... black is more than TEN TIMES the mll)
Assuming you had brightness set properly that is high compared to what others have measured with and without the voltage adjustments. Take a look at this chart, the 2013 F8500 (64") ran as high as 0.07 cd/m^2 with APL patterns before the voltage adjustment and then 0.03 cd/m^2 after for the one that fierceGT adjusted. You may want to burn the full set of mll vs. APL patterns from that thread and document your black level variability. It may be why you are noticing the change more than others.
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post #12072 of 12626 Old 05-27-2015, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by encendido5 View Post
I don't know if its pink noise or white noise, but sometimes when watching YouTube videos, when going to a new video, it starts playing with a very loud noise. If I go to the next video, it stops. I wonder if its the same as the Pandora issue you're having.

Also on the YouTube app, it's too bad you can't use the side by side 3d option. I have to turn in my ps3 to make it work.
Thank god it isn't just me. Same problem here for quite awhile now. I have update firmware numerous times. It happens about every 3-4 videos. It doesn't happen via Chromecast. The volume jumps about 100% and static. Seems that a pause and play fixes it.
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post #12073 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Assuming you had brightness set properly that is high compared to what others have measured with and without the voltage adjustments. Take a look at this chart, the 2013 F8500 (64") ran as high as 0.07 cd/m^2 with APL patterns before the voltage adjustment and then 0.03 cd/m^2 after for the one that fierceGT adjusted. You may want to burn the full set of mll vs. APL patterns from that thread and document your black level variability. It may be why you are noticing the change more than others.
Ok later I'll do all the measurements and I'll post in that thread... Assuming my 0,115cd/m2 is correct, do you think this is enough to call samsung? I think this is really difficult to show to a technician...
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post #12074 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Python357 View Post
Ok later I'll do all the measurements and I'll post in that thread... Assuming my 0,115cd/m2 is correct, do you think this is enough to call samsung? I think this is really difficult to show to a technician...
It really depends on who you get, sometimes they'll just start replacing stuff just because the client is unhappy. But if you can demonstrate the problem visually and the tech knows what it should look like, he should listen. The measurements alone might not get you anywhere.
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post #12075 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Display this from usb stick and measure the black level, it should be close to 0.03 cd/m^2. If it is then your panel has normal black lift with APLs that exceed 10%.
Zoyd....need some advice on my method of setting brightness on a 64F8500.

I currently put up a black window on calman's 25% APL constant pattern with the videoforge HDMI pattern generator. Then I measure with the K10A lowering the brightness setting until the measured brightness no longer decreases. In my mind, this would be a more accurate way of setting brightness on a display where the black level changes depending on APL. Using a 25% APL pattern lands me where most content resides. However, with content below 25% APL, seems that I'd be crushing near black.

With that said, I'd think that even with 25% APL, your pupils constrict where even with a higher brightness setting, you couldn't tell the difference and you're less likely to crush near black in low APL scenes..

As you can see, I clearly overthink this stuff.

What do you recommend for setting black level on the F8500?
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post #12076 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 11:10 AM
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Hi Jim,

What you're proposing (setting brightness by 25% APL) would kill shadow detail in dark scenes. I would set black using conventional methods.
You are correct though, in brighter scenes, your pupils will constrict making floating blacks less noticeable.

John

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Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #12077 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I currently put up a black window on calman's 25% APL constant pattern with the videoforge HDMI pattern generator. Then I measure with the K10A lowering the brightness setting until the measured brightness no longer decreases. In my mind, this would be a more accurate way of setting brightness on a display where the black level changes depending on APL. Using a 25% APL pattern lands me where most content resides. However, with content below 25% APL, seems that I'd be crushing near black.
This should give you the same brightness setting regardless of APL, at least it does for me. This sets level 16 just below the first possible dither level the display can manage. The more interesting question is what to set near-black to using a LUT or 10 pt. control since you'll get two different BT.1886 curves depending on if you use low APL or high APL black levels. With my LUT calibrations I target a BT.1886 curve that is equivalent to a BT.1886 curve with 0.015 cd/m^2 black and relative gamma of 2.4. This is something you just have to play around with and that level has yielded the best looking calibration for the widest range of material for me.
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post #12078 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 12:26 PM
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It really depends on who you get, sometimes they'll just start replacing stuff just because the client is unhappy. But if you can demonstrate the problem visually and the tech knows what it should look like, he should listen. The measurements alone might not get you anywhere.
ok made my measures... posted here

comments: my performance is destroyed beyond 50%APL being the worse ever measured: strange thing, with the patterne you gave me yesterday, I already had bad performance at 25%, with the patterns of the dvd, I got bad performance starting from 50%

looks like I have 0.055 cd/m2 more than any other F8500 ever measured, so this is very probably the reason why I am experiencing the "slow returning black"

now the question is: what to do?
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post #12079 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 12:58 PM
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ok made my measures... posted here

comments: my performance is destroyed beyond 50%APL being the worse ever measured: strange thing, with the patterne you gave me yesterday, I already had bad performance at 25%, with the patterns of the dvd, I got bad performance starting from 50%
It depends on the actual level distribution (that's why the ANSI looks fine), the solid gray backgrounds seem to be the worst case and the random patterns from the sequence are closer to what you get with actual content.


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looks like I have 0.055 cd/m2 more than any other F8500 ever measured, so this is very probably the reason why I am experiencing the "slow returning black"
There was one other measurement similar to yours here that I did not include on summary plot, and it was also a 51".
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post #12080 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 02:37 PM
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Thank god it isn't just me. Same problem here for quite awhile now. I have update firmware numerous times. It happens about every 3-4 videos. It doesn't happen via Chromecast. The volume jumps about 100% and static. Seems that a pause and play fixes it.
How can we all have the same TV and not equally experience the same issues? I've never had this happen. I watch YouTube daily.
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post #12081 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 02:50 PM
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There was one other measurement similar to yours here that I did not include on summary plot, and it was also a 51".
Looks like there is a F8500 worse than mine out there, at the end...

I was watching an old blu ray 2 fast 2 furious and there is a long scene with red-yellow-brown backgrounds in which the floating black bars are very distracting, I can clearly see the bars fluctuating according to the scene, and this is really annoying. I have measured a black of 0.85cd at a certain point. I had to turn off the F8500 before throwing a shoe in the center of the screen. And I can buy an ec930v (ec9300 in usa) for less than 1800 euro here... and I also get an extra lcd 22"... Today i have called samsung if they will do nothing (and I think this is 70% chance) i'll sell my F8500 for a few bucks and buy the oled.

I never wanted something so much that disappointed me so vastly when I finally got it....
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post #12082 of 12626 Old 05-28-2015, 03:39 PM
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The timing board and it's firmware is what determines the temporal behavior of the black level which is basically the number of reset pulses applied and their rise and fall times. I don't know if this problem is confined to the 51", or European models, or phase of the moon so it's hard to recommend any solutions. You could try a replacement timing board but it may behave exactly the same, no way to tell.

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post #12083 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 05:44 AM
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Zoyd have you found your Nivarna yet or still looking?
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post #12084 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 07:23 AM
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Has anyone been able to get the stupid AdHub "app" to update? It keeps telling me there is an update available, I select it to install and nothing happens. The next time I turn on the tv, it still shows as an update available.
I still have this problem and "SyncPlus" and "eManual" have joined it. Anyone else? I wonder if it has anything to do with me not having a Samsung "account" and the tv not being logged in to such an account?
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post #12085 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 07:27 AM
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I still have this problem and "SyncPlus" and "eManual" have joined it. Anyone else? I wonder if it has anything to do with me not having a Samsung "account" and the tv not being logged in to such an account?
I'm having issues as well.
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post #12086 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 08:47 AM
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I'm a videophile, but really, I think many of you are really overthinking this.

Feel free to calibrate however you choose, but I still find the 8500 to be the best picture out there perhaps short of OLED with the black level set using the test pattern on the Disney WOW BD.
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post #12087 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 10:33 AM
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I still have this problem and "SyncPlus" and "eManual" have joined it. Anyone else? I wonder if it has anything to do with me not having a Samsung "account" and the tv not being logged in to such an account?

I actually gave up using Smart Hub or any online widgets through the TV, disconnected the Ethernet and use my trusty Roku. No more messages or hassle.
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post #12088 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 10:39 AM
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Can some of you enter the service menu or "mute 737 enter menu" and tell me what it says at "Logic S/W : " ??

Mine says L-51FP-1002 and I suspect it's outdated, but updating firmware does not help.

thanks
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post #12089 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 02:57 PM
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Barely three months after I got the 64F8500 it all of a sudden developed a 4" vertical black bar from top to bottom, slightly to the right of the center of the screen. Samsung has now, after a delay of two weeks, replaced the panel under warranty. The problem is that I think that the TV now does not have the same level of depth in picture or even the same black level. Also, the picture seems to be slightly soft, even maybe slightly out of focus. The picture also seems to be very slightly hazy. My question is, am I just imagining this? Or is it possible that there is something wrong with the replacement panel? Any suggestions or opinions in the matter will be highly appreciated.

PS: When the replacement panel arrived, it came packed in a box that did not look like it was factory packed. Also the panel itself had a manufacturing sticker that was clearly stuck on top of an older sticker that had not even been completely removed. The date of manufacturing of the replacement panel is actually older than the original panel in the TV. Also, one of the cables on the panel, had a very dirty smudge & black gooey stuff on it. Bottom line, everything about the panel suggested to me that it was a refurbished panel and not brand new.
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post #12090 of 12626 Old 05-29-2015, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
Barely three months after I got the 64F8500 it all of a sudden developed a 4" vertical black bar from top to bottom, slightly to the right of the center of the screen. Samsung has now, after a delay of two weeks, has replaced the panel under warranty. The problem is that I think that the TV now does not have the same level of depth in picture or even the same black level. Also, the picture seems to be slightly soft, even maybe slightly out of focus. The picture also seems to be very slightly hazy. My question is, am I just imagining this? Or is it possible that there is something wrong with the replacement panel? Any suggestions or opinions in the matter will be highly appreciated.

PS: When the replacement panel arrived, it came packed in a box that did not look like it was factory packed. Also the panel itself had a manufacturing sticker that was clearly stuck on top of an older sticker that had not even been completely removed. The date of manufacturing of the replacement panel is actually older than the original panel in the TV. Also, one of the cables on the panel, had a very dirty smudge & black gooey stuff on it. Bottom line, everything about the panel suggested to me that it was a refurbished panel and not brand new.
That packaging tape job looks suspect. Wonder if they scavenged the panel from a warranty return 8500.
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