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orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You can beat that horse till then end of time honestly and owners will still refuse to accept certain settings are set specific.
To be fair, I think that statement is perhaps more relevant for the B spec of this TV since it has excellent factory settings in Movie mode. However, there are other TVs that come out of the box with significant color tints, etc, and this is consistent across units. In those cases, these shared settings can still get you closer to a better picture. For example, it appears that even with the AF series of panels from 2013, the out of box settings were quite off where they needed to be as can be seen from Will's settings on the 1st page of this thread. I think his settings would probably be beneficial for folks with no access to meter and an AF series panel.

Ultimately, you have to judge by eye, but it really is no harm to try someone elses calibration settings to see if you prefer the look. In cases of TV panels that have a systematic bias in the colors, these shared settings can help. And ultimately, if you don't have a meter and don't plan on purchasing one, you just have to go by what looks best to you, rather than trying to meet an absolute spec. So if a shared setting looks better to you, there isn't any harm in going with it. I say this because I did exactly this for my Panasonic plasma when I didn't have a working meter, and even though it may have not been accurate to Rec709 spec, the PQ with shared settings posted by someone else was much improved over the out of box defaults in Movie mode.
chunon's Avatar chunon
09:43 AM Liked: 551
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^^^I was only really referring to Greyscale and gamma settings, those tend to vary to a wide degree from set to set. CMS is usually in the same ballpark depending on the base settings. Actually the chances of someone elses setting making your set more accurate is less than 4%.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Actually the chances of someone elses setting making your set more accurate is less than 4%.
Wow, I thought it was closer to 6%.

You have a reference for that?

chunon's Avatar chunon
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Here's one article several floating around

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/12/the-fru...oneer-lottery/
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Interesting. Thanks!

PlasmaPQ1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Service menu? You mean like reset the hours? I didn't for me (yes, I've gone back to defaults once or twice ). I asked once in this thread or another about some of the other options, but, in general, no one (including me ) was willing to experiment with them.
There are only a couple, anyway, IIRC.
Any particular reason you're resetting the picture?
Michael
No,I just wanted see how many hours were on my 51 and see if this Sammy had a day/night calibration mode. Apparently the budget models dont have CalDAY & CalNIGHT. I stupidly toggled some settings and want to make absolutely sure its at default in case of any warranty issues. I know simply accessing the service menu does NOT void warranty btw as some people falsely believe this. Thanks.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Here's one article several floating around

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/12/the-fru...oneer-lottery/
Interesting read, but I think that supports my point about copying settings not being necessarily a great idea for these B spec tvs that have good out of the box settings. That article compares the Pioneer Plasmas that already had great factory settings to begin with. In that case, I agree that minor tweaks to contrast/brightness, etc using any basic DVD would be the best approach.

For TVs that have subpar out of the box settings though, I don't think it hurts to try other settings that may help improve your PQ.
chunon's Avatar chunon
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Don't get me wrong I am not saying using shared settings is a bad idea. However, there is a myth here that continues to exist that you can effectively copy all settings and that that is akin to calibrating your tv. My main point is that there is alot a variance especially in greyscale setting that really makes that an exercise in futility. I understand what you are saying about the B series but I think another overriding theme of the article has to do with Pioneers very very tight quality control standards. The lack of variance in those sets was really an industry standard and has not been approached since. If that method was not effective for Kuro's, one could surmise that it would be even less effective for a normal consumer set.

The bottom line is if you apply greyscale settings blindly you really have no clue what the end result will be. TV A may have a blue bias, TV B might have a red bias etc etc. Then add in signal chain, viewing environment and the accuracy of the meter used to derive the settings and you have even more variables.
RyanHomsey's Avatar RyanHomsey
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Just to add to the data here:

I owned and tested two F5300 "B" sets (well one is technically an F5350 but they're the same thing) - and they both were fairly similar across the board (greyscale/gamma/color accuracy), indicating that copying settings on these could be beneficial.

I wish I had written down my settings prior to taking back my F5300 to input them into my F5350 and see how it measured out.



(Dotted line = F5300 Stock / Solid line = F5350 Stock)

orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Don't get me wrong I am not saying using shared settings is a bad idea. However, there is a myth here that continues to exist that you can effectively copy all settings and that that is akin to calibrating your tv.
Completely agree with you on that. Copying settings doesn't give you a calibrated sets. It just may give you a more pleasing picture, but ultimately the viewer will need to be the judge of whether they like the resulting PQ or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
The bottom line is if you apply greyscale settings blindly you really have no clue what the end result will be. TV A may have a blue bias, TV B might have a red bias etc etc. Then add in signal chain, viewing environment and the accuracy of the meter used to derive the settings and you have even more variables.
This is of course true, but the way I look at it is that for someone who doesn't own a meter and doesn't plan on investing in one, the best yardstick is whether the PQ looks great to them, not whether it is truly calibrated. If someones settings looks better than the factory settings, then there shouldn't be any reason not to use it. Since the shared settings are all reversible, it doesn't hurt to try them and to see if the resulting PQ is pleasing or feels better than the defaults. For example, I tried Will's settings from the 1st page on my B spec model and the resulting PQ was pretty horrible and washed out (likely due to the large difference between A and B spec models). So I reverted back to the defaults. With my last TV, I used settings from CNET and it looked much more pleasing than the default Cinema mode so I stuck with those settings. Of course, I made sure I wasn't crushing blacks, etc, so some amount of common sense is still required . For this TV though, I do think the best option is to stick with Movie Mode, Auto Color Space, Warm2, Gamma -1, Contrast around 95, Cell Light at 20 and Brightness around 48-50 (set according to ambient lighting and black level test).
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Copying settings doesn't give you a calibrated set.
Thought that was worth repeating.
chunon's Avatar chunon
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Orion2001 and lastbutnotleast just out what size and type of windows are you using for your calibrations.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Orion2001 and lastbutnotleast just out what size and type of windows are you using for your calibrations.
I've been using 7-10% windows. No real difference in that range.
chunon's Avatar chunon
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Apl or standard ?
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Apl or standard ?
Just standard. See Michael Chen's article on this: http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/05/apl-of-...lasma-tv-gods/
chunon's Avatar chunon
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Yeah I've read that a lot of debate even among calibrators . I am an apl believer myself. Was just curious what you used.
ADU's Avatar ADU
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Thanks for all the detailed info on your cal, orion2001.

One small suggestion. You might try copying your Color Space settings from the Movie Picture Mode into Standard Picture Mode, and then changing the Color setting in Standard Picture Mode from 50 to 44.

50 works well for Movie Mode, but not Standard Mode. Changing Color to 44 should fix the saturation issues in Standard Picture Mode.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Orion2001 and lastbutnotleast just out what size and type of windows are you using for your calibrations.
From the AVS calibration disc, ColorHCFR -> ColorHCFR APL -> large grayscale and large 75% color.
Michael
Nikwasi's Avatar Nikwasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
One small suggestion. You might try copying your Color Space settings from the Movie Picture Mode into Standard Picture Mode, and then changing the Color setting in Standard Picture Mode from 50 to 44.

50 works well for Movie Mode, but not Standard Mode. Changing Color to 44 should fix the saturation issues in Standard Picture Mode.
Yes, I am using the exact color settings you recommend with my 51F5300BF ... 44 for Standard and 50 for Movie. I wonder why the two modes demand different color settings when all other parameters are the same.

BTW, on my 51BF it is not possible to use separate Color Space settings for Standard and Movie modes. Custom Color Space settings plugged into either mode copy to the other mode.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
Changing Color to 44 should fix the saturation issues in Standard Picture Mode.
And will probably also mess up everything else. Color and tint are set with a pattern such as this using the blue only mode:


 
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
Thanks for all the detailed info on your cal, orion2001.

One small suggestion. You might try copying your Color Space settings from the Movie Picture Mode into Standard Picture Mode, and then changing the Color setting in Standard Picture Mode from 50 to 44.

50 works well for Movie Mode, but not Standard Mode. Changing Color to 44 should fix the saturation issues in Standard Picture Mode.
Hi ADU. Thanks! I hadn't thought of that. That sounds very interesting. It's annoying that you can't have separate Custom colorspace settings for each mode so if that works, I'd be really happy as I could use the Standard mode for non-critical, daylight viewing.

Right now I've spent a couple of hours battling annoying HDMI handshaking issues with my receiver and TV. It's been an exercise in frustration and taping pin 19 on the HDMI connector didn't work for me either. And of course, with my luck, it figures that Intel doesn't support EDID overriding with custom INF files, so that doesn't work for me either.
Nikwasi's Avatar Nikwasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
And will probably also mess up everything else. Color and tint are set with a pattern such as this using the blue only mode:
I set my color values using the flashing bars, and the results were 44 in Standard, 50 in Movie.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Excellent.
I just wanted to make sure you weren't just plugging in numbers.
Enjoy.
Michael
ADU's Avatar ADU
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^ Listen to Nikwasi. He knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
And will probably also mess up everything else.
Disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Color and tint are set with a pattern such as this using the blue only mode:
Agree.

I used a series of decoder test patterns of varying stimuli like the one you posted above, and the one shown below to arrive at the Color 44 value for Standard Mode on my 43F4500, using all three of the RGB Only Modes (Red, Green, and Blue) in the Advanced Settings menu, just above the Color Space option. I also noticed the same thing on the open-box 51F5300 that I had previously.



The RGB Only Modes on these plasma TVs take the place of the color filters included with most calibration discs, and they are much more accurate than the filters. That's one of the calibration features I like best about the Sammy TVs.

As LBNL mentioned above, if you have a Blue Only mode (or a Red Only, Green Only, and Blue Only mode like on the Sammys), then you should probably use that/those with a set of color bars/decoder tests to determine the correct Color and Tint settings on the TV before you begin your calibration. In many cases, that should save a lot of fudging with the other color values down the line.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPQ1 View Post
Quick question guys, I am new to this forum and a first time plasma owner (PN51F5350AFXZA). What are the defaults for your service menu? (Press mute, 7, 3, 7, Enter).I know MRT is total TV hours and the rest is a mystery.
For my PN60F5300B:



In another thread, I asked if anyone had changed (or was willing to change) the APC stuff, but I got no takers.
ADU's Avatar ADU
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
This looks pretty good btw.

And I agree that it's probably better to adjust the Color Space settings more in favor of the lower saturation values, rather than 100%, because fully saturated colors are less common in most program content. I think I'd even try to increase the saturation of red, yellow, and maybe also blue just a bit more than you've got above, to get the 50% and 75% saturation values on those colors to track a little better, if that's possible, and it doesn't mess up the other colors too badly.
ADU's Avatar ADU
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Also, I noticed that both your and LBNL's Custom Color Space settings where somewhat similar to the defaults on my F4500. Not sure if anyone's posted their default values yet, but these are the factory settings on my 43F4500B (which is pretty much identical to the F5300 series, except that it's 768p)...

Default 43F4500B Custom Color Space settings
(HDMI input 1, firmware 1003):
Red 43-5-5
Green 25-48-0
Blue 2-6-51
Yellow 50-48-4
Cyan 25-49-52
Magenta 43-8-53

I looked at a couple of A panels (both F5300 an F4500) over the weekend at BB, and I believe they had the following default Custom Color Space settings...

Default F5300A & F4500A Custom Color Space settings
(internal TV tuner, original firmware):
Red 50-0-0
Green 0-50-0
Blue 0-0-50
Yellow 50-50-0
Cyan 0-50-50
Magenta 50-0-50

It's possible those values have been changed in one of the firmware updates for the A panels though.

Based on Nikwasi's comment above re Movie and Standard mode, I doubt that these panel's support different Color Space settings for each input. But (as noted above), the settings for my F4500B are from HDMI 1, and the settings for the A panels are from the TVs' internal tuner.
ADU's Avatar ADU
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
Yes, I am using the exact color settings you recommend with my 51F5300BF ... 44 for Standard and 50 for Movie. I wonder why the two modes demand different color settings when all other parameters are the same.
Probably just to give the default color in Standard mode a bit more "kick".

If you really want more color kick though, you're probably better off adding that in the Color Space (ie gamut) controls, rather than using an incorrect Color/Tint setting. (The color on my F4500 has plenty of kick though with Gamma set to -3.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
BTW, on my 51BF it is not possible to use separate Color Space settings for Standard and Movie modes. Custom Color Space settings plugged into either mode copy to the other mode.
Good to know. I haven't tinkered with the Color Space controls too much yet, since the defaults on my TV are already fairly good. But I'll be curious to know what values orion2001 and others are using, when they're done tinkering, if they want to tell.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
This looks pretty good btw.

And I agree that it's probably better to adjust the Color Space settings more in favor of the lower saturation values, rather than 100%, because fully saturated colors are less common in most program content. I think I'd even try to increase the saturation of red, yellow, and maybe also blue just a bit more than you've got above, to get the 50% and 75% saturation values on those colors to track a little better, if that's possible, and it doesn't mess up the other colors too badly.
Thanks. Yes, I do plan to revisit it over the weekend. I was in a bit of a rush to head out this past weekend so I got lazy and didn't dial in the saturations perfectly. That being said, sometimes it is also a bit of a compromise between getting the CIE chart to look spot-on v/s getting a close luminance match to the target. In general, all the delta Es are <2, with most being <1 so I'm not sure how visible the changes would be with improvements.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
50 works well for Movie Mode, but not Standard Mode. Changing Color to 44 should fix the saturation issues in Standard Picture Mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
I set my color values using the flashing bars, and the results were 44 in Standard, 50 in Movie.
Thanks guys! I tried the Blue only mode with the flashing bars pattern from the AVS files and sure enough, Color of 44 was spot on for Standard mode. I also did a quick test sweep with both Auto color space and Custom (Custom being my settings for the Movie mode calibration). Both matched very well on the CIE chart. Not as good as my Movie mode calibration, with a bit of undersaturation for reds and yellows. But all in all...Wow! Standard mode is exactly what I want it to be right now...a brighter version of my Movie mode. I get a max brightness of 50ftL in Standard mode as compared to 35ftL in Movie mode so it will be perfect for daylight viewing.

I was also very pleased to note that switching between modes had practically no impact on colors and tints. It simply boosted the brightness. It's great to have a simple toggle between "Day" and "Night" mode for my viewing on this TV!
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