Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings? - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I was also very pleased to note that switching between modes had practically no impact on colors and tints. It simply boosted the brightness. It's great to have a simple toggle between "Day" and "Night" mode for my viewing on this TV!
So are the settings totally independent? I'll have to play to see what's affected and what isn't.

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post #392 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
So are the settings totally independent? I'll have to play to see what's affected and what isn't.

Are we having fun yet?
Lol, what I really should be doing is sleeping! And yes, the Standard and Movie settings are independent in terms of all other parameters (2 pt White Balance, Gamma, Basic controls like brightness, etc) except for color space if you choose the Custom colorspace. You can only have a single Custom color space across all modes.
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post #393 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 12:51 AM
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Sleep is highly over-rated.
See my suggestion for your HDMI problem in the other thread.
Good luck, and good night.
Michael

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post #394 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 06:44 AM
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Has anyone successfully set white/black levels on this set via an Xbox One? I've found this panel does not work correctly with it. Even if it's one of the other sizes (51 or 64), I'd love to hear any other experiences with the XB1. See: Xbox One INCOMPATIBLE with PN60F5300/F5350!!??

Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Lol, what I really should be doing is sleeping! And yes, the Standard and Movie settings are independent in terms of all other parameters (2 pt White Balance, Gamma, Basic controls like brightness, etc) except for color space if you choose the Custom colorspace. You can only have a single Custom color space across all modes.
Very cool to know we can setup a less critical viewing mode for higher ambient light. I had written off "standard" mode entirely!

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post #395 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
Has anyone successfully set white/black levels on this set via an Xbox One? I've found this panel does not work correctly with it. Even if it's one of the other sizes (51 or 64), I'd love to hear any other experiences with the XB1. See: Xbox One INCOMPATIBLE with PN60F5300/F5350!!??
If the XB1 is sending out valid and correct HDMI signals, then there shouldn't be a disparity. The signal is digital after all, and if there is a red push I'd say it's because the XB1 is making it so. Are you finding this discoloration via calibration hardware or just eyeballing it?

I've not played with an XB1 but I can say that it took me a LONG time to find the "correct" settings for my 360, and only a very specific magic set of settings would prevent black and white clipping.

One thing you might check is to see if switching to the XB1 causes the TV to automatically switch modes somehow.
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post #396 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
If the XB1 is sending out valid and correct HDMI signals, then there shouldn't be a disparity. The signal is digital after all, and if there is a red push I'd say it's because the XB1 is making it so. Are you finding this discoloration via calibration hardware or just eyeballing it?

I've not played with an XB1 but I can say that it took me a LONG time to find the "correct" settings for my 360, and only a very specific magic set of settings would prevent black and white clipping.

One thing you might check is to see if switching to the XB1 causes the TV to automatically switch modes somehow.
The discoloration is a secondary issue to the entirely crushed blacks and clipped whites. Setting black and white levels is done by eye. As far as the discoloration is concerned I do not need to take a measurement with my meter to discern it's inaccuracy, it is blatantly obvious. As I said in the thread I linked above, all combinations of TV settings and XB1 settings made no change towards either the clipping of whites/blacks or discoloration. TV Mode is unchanged by the XB1, I've toggled different modes to ensure it wasn't "sticking" elsewhere but showing "movie mode". Makes no difference.

Maybe it is something related to the refresh rate of the TV? Pentile pixel arrangement? Something funky going on within the blu-ray app in the XB1? No idea.... It just doesn't work. I could be missing something - I'm hoping I'm wrong and someone who has tried an XB1 with these sets can chime in and share their experience.
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post #397 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
The discoloration is a secondary issue to the entirely crushed blacks and clipped whites. Setting black and white levels is done by eye. As far as the discoloration is concerned I do not need to take a measurement with my meter to discern it's inaccuracy, it is blatantly obvious. As I said in the thread I linked above, all combinations of TV settings and XB1 settings made no change towards either the clipping of whites/blacks or discoloration. TV Mode is unchanged by the XB1, I've toggled different modes to ensure it wasn't "sticking" elsewhere but showing "movie mode". Makes no difference.

Maybe it is something related to the refresh rate of the TV? Pentile pixel arrangement? Something funky going on within the blu-ray app in the XB1? No idea.... It just doesn't work. I could be missing something - I'm hoping I'm wrong and someone who has tried an XB1 with these sets can chime in and share their experience.
When the 360 was release, there was no way to make it stop clipping blacks. They eventually patched it and added a black level adjustment... and a 3rd "intermediate" black level that made absolutely no sense at all.

Obviously since you can see BTB on your LCD this isn't the same issue but just an anecdote meant to imply that MS doesn't know what it is doing when it comes to video-level content.

I'd be happy to give it a crack if you want to send me an XB1 though

Edit: some suggestions here http://www.avforums.com/threads/xbox...lacks.1833534/
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post #398 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
When the 360 was release, there was no way to make it stop clipping blacks. They eventually patched it and added a black level adjustment... and a 3rd "intermediate" black level that made absolutely no sense at all.

Obviously since you can see BTB on your LCD this isn't the same issue but just an anecdote meant to imply that MS doesn't know what it is doing when it comes to video-level content.

I'd be happy to give it a crack if you want to send me an XB1 though
Didn't know that about the 360. I was way late in the game picking one of those up and, by that time, they had ironed out most of the issues I think.

I did a little digging and couldnt find anyone else who had this issue. And if it is indeed a software issue on the XB1 side that effects primarily only a small group of plasma displays they may not prioritize it much (if at all)
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post #399 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Standard mode is exactly what I want it to be right now...a brighter version of my Movie mode. I get a max brightness of 50ftL in Standard mode as compared to 35ftL in Movie mode so it will be perfect for daylight viewing.
Would you mind sharing your Standard mode settings? I don't plan to plug them into my set, but I would like to compare your settings to mine.
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post #400 of 1059 Old 07-29-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
For my PN60F5300B:



In another thread, I asked if anyone had changed (or was willing to change) the APC stuff, but I got no takers.
Nice, looks like my changeable settings are the same as yours. I have read speculation that APC might be directly related to the aggressiveness of the ABL circuit. I personally dont have ABL issues with movie mode & cell light 20.Appreciate the screen shot.
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post #401 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
Would you mind sharing your Standard mode settings? I don't plan to plug them into my set, but I would like to compare your settings to mine.
Sure thing.

Standard mode, Black optimizer off

Notes:
Target Gamma 2.22 Black Compensated (Use Measured Gamma unchecked)

--Picture menu
Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 48
Sharpness: 0
Color: 44
Tint: G50/R50

Picture size submenu:
Picture Size: Screen Fit

PIP: Off

Advanced settings submenu:
Dynamic contrast: Off
Black tone: Dark
Flesh tone: 0
RGB Only Mode: Off
Color space: Custom
White Balance: [see below]
10p White Balance: DISABLED
Gamma: -1
Expert Pattern: Off
Motion Lighting: Off [grayed out]

Color Space submenu:
Color Space: Custom
R 41 5 3
G 22 49 3
B 2 4 47
Y 50 50 6
C 27 50 50
M 39 7 49
White balance submenu:
2 Point
R-Offset: 8
G-Offset: 13
B-Offset: 15
R-Gain: 12
G-Gain: 6
B-Gain: -3

10p White Balance submenu:
10p White Balance: DISABLED

Picture options submenu
Color tone: Warm2
Digital Clean View: Off
MPEG Noise Filter: Off
HDMI black level: Low
Film mode: Off
Black optimizer: Off
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post #402 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Sure thing.

HDMI black level: Low
Thanks, my man. Question for all: The HDMI Black Level function is disabled for me because my cable box is set to output YCC 4:4:4. Is RGB a better choice for source output with this display? My cable box (Motorola DCX700) does have RGB as an output option, but YCC 4:4:4 is the default setting.

Sports is my primary viewing priority, so I want to get everything crispy in time for football season.

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post #403 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
Thanks, my man. Question for all: The HDMI Black Level function is disabled for me because my cable box is set to output YCC 4:4:4. Is RGB a better choice for source output with this display? My cable box (Motorola DCX700) does have RGB as an output option, but YCC 4:4:4 is the default setting.

Sports is my primary viewing priority, so I want to get everything crispy in time for football season.
I think YCC should be fine. I have an HTPC that is exclusively connected to my TV so I don't have any devices to test against. With HTPCs, it is recommended to output full 0-255 RGB. If you have access to a meter, it would be interesting to see if there is any measurable difference between the two.
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post #404 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I think YCC should be fine. I have an HTPC that is exclusively connected to my TV so I don't have any devices to test against. With HTPCs, it is recommended to output full 0-255 RGB. If you have access to a meter, it would be interesting to see if there is any measurable difference between the two.
I don't have access to a meter right now, and don't know how to use one, but that would be interesting. I just switched my box to RGB output. I'll use RGB for a while and see if my reconstructed eyes can tell any difference (not likely). The Low setting on HDMI Black definitely looks better, and it doesn't crush blacks as far as I can tell.

This TV is a lot of fun for a compulsive tweaker like me!
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post #405 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
The Low setting on HDMI Black definitely looks better, and it doesn't crush blacks as far as I can tell.
Do you mean blacks look better than when in YCbCr mode?
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post #406 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Do you mean blacks look better than when in YCbCr mode?
Not necessarily ... hard to tell.

Edit: I meant that setting HDMI Black to Low looks better when the output mode is RGB.

Last edited by Nikwasi; 07-30-2014 at 05:09 PM.
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post #407 of 1059 Old 07-30-2014, 06:54 PM
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Arrow My Current PN51F5300AF Game Mode Settings (FYI, Main Board Changed Many Months Ago)

--Picture menu
Mode: Standard
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 88
Brightness: 44
Sharpness: 0
Color: 41
Tint: G50/R50

Picture size submenu:
Picture Size: Screen Fit

Advanced settings submenu:
Dynamic contrast: Off
Black tone: Off
Flesh tone: 0
RGB Only Mode: Off
Color space: Custom
White Balance: [see below]
10p White Balance: Off [grayed out]
Gamma: +1
Expert Pattern: Off
Motion Lighting: Off [grayed out]

Color Space submenu:
Color Space: Custom
Red: Red 46, Green 0, Blue 0
Green: Red 0, Green 50, Blue 0
Blue: Red 0, Green 0, Blue 50
Yellow: Red 50, Green 51, Blue 0
Cyan: Red 0, Green 50, Blue 50
Magenta: Red 50, Green 0, Blue 50

White balance submenu:
R-Offset: 20
G-Offset: 25
B-Offset: 22
R-Gain: 21
G-Gain: 25
B-Gain: 22

Picture options submenu
Color tone: Warm1
Digital Clean View: Off
MPEG Noise Filter: Off
HDMI black level: Normal [grayed out]
Film mode: Off [grayed out]
Black optimizer: Dark room
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Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 09-24-2014 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Updated 9-24-14
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post #408 of 1059 Old 07-31-2014, 11:07 AM
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post #409 of 1059 Old 07-31-2014, 12:29 PM
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**
Nice Work ! What do you use for a pattern source ?

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post #410 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 10:32 AM
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Nice Work ! What do you use for a pattern source ?
Ted's Disc w/the batch files for automated use in CalMAN 5. I know my CMS settings are at default, but that's because I seem to prefer the slightly oversaturated look plus I'm not sure exactly what approach with the CMS produces the best result visually with reference content (BD). I've had pretty looking charts before, but I was never fully satisfied with the visual result.
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post #411 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Ted's Disc w/the batch files for automated use in CalMAN 5. I know my CMS settings are at default, but that's because I seem to prefer the slightly oversaturated look plus I'm not sure exactly what approach with the CMS produces the best result visually with reference content (BD). I've had pretty looking charts before, but I was never fully satisfied with the visual result.
I was reading about Ted's automation functionality might have to try that out. My only hesistation with that is pattern size(11% standard windows correct ?). Yeah CMS is more subjective imo

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post #412 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
**
Nice work. I'm surprised that you did the calibration in "Standard" mode and starting off with "Warm1". Standard mode prevents you from using the 10pt White balance. Movie mode also tracks a nice flat gamma quite nicely from the get go. Warm2 is also closer to D65, but I guess ultimately you could get back to the spec by tweaking the TV controls.

Looks like you do have more red and that will likely make your skin tones a bit redder. It wouldn't be too hard to tweak your CMS to see if you prefer the custom look v/s Auto. The main tweaks would be to push red out less (subtract red and add Blue, Green). Green could also use a bit of tweaking if you wanted.
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Final Calibration Notes

Performed my last wave of calibration on this set today. I'm not planning on tweaking anything else --- I've spent way too much time on this already.

I went with BT1886 gamma curve, which I think pulls up the shadow details nicely. I'm sticking with it on all my displays. I also focused on pulling in the lower saturation points (which encompass the majority of content) instead of solely on the 100% points.

Results:











Before (there's a few funky free measure points that HCFR stuck in there, but you can see how everything is under saturated in everything but the 100% points):


After:


Settings:

Picture Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 47
Sharpness: 5
Color: 50
Tint: G50 / R50

Under "Advanced Settings"

Dynamic Contrast: Off
Black Tone: Off
Flesh Tone: 0
RGB Only Mode: Off
Color Space: Custom
Gamma: -1

Color Space Settings (RGB):
Red 44, 4, 2
Green 20, 53, 6
Blue 4, 0, 60
Yellow 50, 56, 6
Cyan 27, 50, 51
Magenta 43, 6, 51

Under "Picture Options"

Color Tone: Warm2
Digital Clean View: Off
MPEG Noise Filter: Off
HDMI Black Level (greyed out): Low
Film Mode (greyed out): Off (I do use Cinema Smooth, option is available when viewing 24p)
Black Optimizer: Dark Room

2pt White Balance
R-Offset +9
G-Offset +14
B-offset +16
R-Gain +3
G-Gain -7
B-Gain +3

10pt White Balance

10% +14, +43, +38
20% -13, +3, -10
30% -6, -6, -11
40% -15, -16, -17
50% 0, -3, 0
60% -17, -19, -19
70% +2, -9, -6
80% -6, -8, -2
90% +2, -10, -9
100% +10, -6, -3

A few tips for others calibrating this set

If you're using non-contact mode (my meter was positioned about an inch away from the screen to stabilize readings) the blue adjustment window at the bottom of the screen will throw off your measurements. For me, this meant looking at the reading and going back through the entire menu to make an adjustment. Extremely tedious but necessary.

Focus on the lower saturation points when calibrating color. Red in particular is very under saturated. It becomes a balancing act of pushing the 100% towards over saturation to pull the lower sat. points up. In real world viewing it makes a visible difference. Colors "pop" much more and skin tones look like they should.

Black level dithering appears to consistently disappear on these sets at brightness level 47. Get up close and toggle between brightness 47 and 48 - watching for 'dancing green pixels'. I've seen the same said for F8500 panels.

Use the 2pt white balance to do the "heavy lifting" then fine tune with the 10pt. I could not achieve bt 1886 without it, particularly brightening up the 10% grey point.

P.S.: I tried out the auto pattern feature built into HCFR (by choosing display patterns in this initial setup), my computer isn't configured correctly for that so of course everything came out whacky - but you guys using HTPC and/or auto pattern generation have it MADE!

Last edited by RyanHomsey; 08-02-2014 at 07:05 PM.
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post #414 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
Performed my last wave of calibration on this set today. I'm not planning on tweaking anything else --- I've spent way too much time on this already.

I went with BT1886 gamma curve, which I think pulls up the shadow details nicely. I'm sticking with it on all my displays. I also focused on pulling in the lower saturation points (which encompass the majority of content) instead of solely on the 100% points.
Great to see you finally managed to get this done! I also did the BT1886 calibration a couple of days back. Haven't yet decided which I prefer, I think I am leaning towards BT1886. Even though there is no black level clipping with either, the lower blacks are a bit brighter, which is nice in higher brightness scenes where your eyes are adjusted for the brighter scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
Use the 2pt white balance to do the "heavy lifting" then fine tune with the 10pt. I could not achieve bt 1886 without it, particularly brightening up the 10% grey point.
Glad this worked out for you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
P.S.: I tried out the auto pattern feature built into HCFR (by choosing display patterns in this initial setup), my computer isn't configured correctly for that so of course everything came out whacky - but you guys using HTPC and/or auto pattern generation have it MADE!
Curious about what you mean by it came out whacky? Do you mean that if you calibrate using the internal pattern generator, the calibration does not match well when using an external source for calibration? Are you currently using a BluRay player for the calibration?

Finally, one thing I noticed on your calibration...you mention that Cinema Smooth was grayed out since it is only available with 24p content. Does this mean you did the entire calibration with it off? There is a decent difference that can sometimes be introduced from CinemaSmooth being on so if you do plan on using it for viewing BluRays, etc, you really would want to calibrate with it enabled. I'm not sure what you are using to display the patterns, but if you are using a laptop/PC, you can just change the screen resolution/refresh rate to 23pHz or 24pHz to enable 24p mode on the TV
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post #415 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 05:06 PM
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Performed my last wave of calibration on this set today. I'm not planning on tweaking anything else --- I've spent way too much time on this already.
Yup, I've said that before.
Several times.
Enjoy your set.
For now, at least.
Michael

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #416 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
There is a decent difference that can sometimes be introduced from CinemaSmooth being on so if you do plan on using it for viewing BluRays, etc, you really would want to calibrate with it enabled.
Well, that didn't take long, did it?!


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post #417 of 1059 Old 08-01-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Curious about what you mean by it came out whacky? Do you mean that if you calibrate using the internal pattern generator, the calibration does not match well when using an external source for calibration? Are you currently using a BluRay player for the calibration?
Whacky as in 30+ delta E's, etc. I did absolutely no setup in regards to the output on my laptop - just plugged it into the HDMI and let er' rip.

It'd be amazing if I could get it to output so it matches the blu-ray source.

I am currently using a blu ray player (PS3) and the AVS calibration blu-ray for pattern generation.

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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Finally, one thing I noticed on your calibration...you mention that Cinema Smooth was grayed out since it is only available with 24p content. Does this mean you did the entire calibration with it off? There is a decent difference that can sometimes be introduced from CinemaSmooth being on so if you do plan on using it for viewing BluRays, etc, you really would want to calibrate with it enabled. I'm not sure what you are using to display the patterns, but if you are using a laptop/PC, you can just change the screen resolution/refresh rate to 23pHz or 24pHz to enable 24p mode on the TV
I should have clarified that the calibration was done with Cinema Smooth on. When I initially typed out all the settings It was on a 60hz source, thus the greyed out film mode.

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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Yup, I've said that before.
Several times.
Enjoy your set.
For now, at least.
Michael
LOL, I know exactly what you mean. I've said it at least 3 times before with this set alone! I did the same thing with my last TV purchase, an LCD 4 years ago. Went through about a month of calibrating and critically analyzing the picture, finally got to that "happy place" and started actually "watching TV" instead of analyzing it. I think I'm there with the F5350 now .
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post #418 of 1059 Old 08-02-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I was reading about Ted's automation functionality might have to try that out. My only hesistation with that is pattern size(11% standard windows correct ?). Yeah CMS is more subjective imo
Yeah the 11% size seems a bit too high for this plasma, but there will be a future release of the disc with all standard window pattern sizes (from very small to full fields with plenty of sizes in between).

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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Nice work. I'm surprised that you did the calibration in "Standard" mode and starting off with "Warm1". Standard mode prevents you from using the 10pt White balance. Movie mode also tracks a nice flat gamma quite nicely from the get go. Warm2 is also closer to D65, but I guess ultimately you could get back to the spec by tweaking the TV controls.

Looks like you do have more red and that will likely make your skin tones a bit redder. It wouldn't be too hard to tweak your CMS to see if you prefer the custom look v/s Auto. The main tweaks would be to push red out less (subtract red and add Blue, Green). Green could also use a bit of tweaking if you wanted.
I didn't chose Standard mode; once game mode is enabled, Standard is the only choice. I chose Warm1, because after a main board swap (which changes internal white balance settings in the service menu), that was the closest the D65 from the get go.
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post #419 of 1059 Old 08-02-2014, 10:41 AM
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Also, I've found the native gamma in Standard mode is no different from the native gamma in Movie mode (the main difference is after the 10-pt controls have been used properly). If Movie mode has flatter native gamma on your set, Standard mode should too. Mine is likely a different build than yours (A vs. B, panel version, build month/year, screen size, etc.).
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post #420 of 1059 Old 08-02-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Yeah the 11% size seems a bit too high for this plasma, but there will be a future release of the disc with all standard window pattern sizes (from very small to full fields with plenty
That's good news will definitely be on the look out for that ! Looks like a great disc overall
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