Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings? - Page 21 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #601 of 1091 Old 08-24-2014, 08:23 AM
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MUCH easier than trying to set the clock on my old VCR.
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post #602 of 1091 Old 08-24-2014, 09:57 AM
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I noticed that the pink tint seems to go away on its own after being on for a couple of hours. Anybody else experiencing this ? Overall I am happy with the purchase and the pink tint is a minor issue over all the many issues that I would experience with a low end LCD.
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post #603 of 1091 Old 08-24-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by S Dayton View Post
I noticed that the pink tint seems to go away on its own after being on for a couple of hours. Anybody else experiencing this ?
Nope, opposite for me. Mine gets pinker the longer the set is on. When it's first turned on its at its the least noticeable.

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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Most importantly, set Sharpness to 0 (3 at the most). Sharpness is turned up wayy to much in the default settings.
I don't agree there. Sharpness at 0 looks really bad on my set. Text is really blurry, like there is Vaseline smeared all over the screen. I kept mine at the default of 20/100.
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post #604 of 1091 Old 08-24-2014, 10:10 AM
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Mine is starting to develop a pink tint in the bottom third of the panel from left to right, just above the blue - green tinted line.

It's basically in the area where the subtitles and closed captions appear but doesn't seem to be IR.

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-24-2014 at 10:12 AM.
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post #605 of 1091 Old 08-24-2014, 07:29 PM
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So I went to my local Best Buy to check out this tv, and its 51" little brother to see the differences in the two different screens. I should tell you all first that I own a 50" Panasonic ST60 and would kill to get a 60" version, but alas they are all gone. Having said that, the F5300 that I saw at BB is certainly not a huge step down in quality. Regarding the different screens between the 51" and 60" models, I truly couldn't see much of a difference. First, with the pink tint, I studied the 60" Pentile screen for a long time when I saw scenes with a white background and I just couldn't detect any pink tint. I was also at a distance of about 2-3 feet, a distance that will never be replicated in my living room where this would go. I did, however, see the screen door effect at that distance. It almost looked like someone had the sharpness set too high. But if you step back to about 5 feet or more away, I can't see it anymore. In short, I see absolutely no reason to choose the smaller 51" version over the 60" pentile version. It looked fantastic to me.
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post #606 of 1091 Old 08-25-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I don't agree there. Sharpness at 0 looks really bad on my set. Text is really blurry, like there is Vaseline smeared all over the screen. I kept mine at the default of 20/100.
Wow, Sharpness of 20 looks horrible on my setup with very clear haloing artifacts around text from over sharpening. Perhaps the difference might be in the source feeding the TV. The higher sharpness may still look okay with less visual artifacts in videos since most elements in a video do not have sharp, high-contrast edges. However, when using the TV as an HTPC monitor, it is very easy to pick up over-sharpening artifacts due to the high contrast UI elements and text elements that are displayed.

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Originally Posted by JayPSU View Post
So I went to my local Best Buy to check out this tv, and its 51" little brother to see the differences in the two different screens. I should tell you all first that I own a 50" Panasonic ST60 and would kill to get a 60" version, but alas they are all gone. Having said that, the F5300 that I saw at BB is certainly not a huge step down in quality. Regarding the different screens between the 51" and 60" models, I truly couldn't see much of a difference. First, with the pink tint, I studied the 60" Pentile screen for a long time when I saw scenes with a white background and I just couldn't detect any pink tint. I was also at a distance of about 2-3 feet, a distance that will never be replicated in my living room where this would go. I did, however, see the screen door effect at that distance. It almost looked like someone had the sharpness set too high. But if you step back to about 5 feet or more away, I can't see it anymore. In short, I see absolutely no reason to choose the smaller 51" version over the 60" pentile version. It looked fantastic to me.
The issue with the 60" panels is that they are more prone to have pink tint issue. There are panels out there with no discernible pink tint (as you noticed). The floor model at a local Sears also had no visible pink tint. However, I've had 2 of them and both had pink tint with the first one having a much stronger case of pink tint. It's a bit of a lottery with lower odds on receiving a panel without any visible pink tint.

That being said, I agree with everything else you noted. If you have the room for a 60" panel, the 60" TV is a no brainer. The visual impact and immersion factor from the larger screen is huge and makes a far bigger impact on the overall viewing experience than pentile v/s non-pentile.
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post #607 of 1091 Old 08-25-2014, 09:12 AM
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could it be possible the the store settings have very bluish whites, which hides the pink tint and when you take it home and use Warm2 color temp, the pink tint becomes visible?
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post #608 of 1091 Old 08-25-2014, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Mine is starting to develop a pink tint in the bottom third of the panel from left to right, just above the blue - green tinted line.

It's basically in the area where the subtitles and closed captions appear but doesn't seem to be IR.
just wondering, are new panels for the A model still available and if so how long will they remain available? right now the tint issues (blue-green line and pink tint above the line) are fairly hard to see with typical content but the pink tint does appear to be gradually creeping upward and getting a bit darker/more visible/saturated)

worried things might get worse after some months and whether new panels will still be available then (didn't have any pink tint when set was brand new and blue-green line was fainter... now I can see line from anywhere in the room on a white screen or gray screen... which is up to 10 feet away)
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post #609 of 1091 Old 08-25-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Wow, Sharpness of 20 looks horrible on my setup with very clear haloing artifacts around text from over sharpening. Perhaps the difference might be in the source feeding the TV. The higher sharpness may still look okay with less visual artifacts in videos since most elements in a video do not have sharp, high-contrast edges. However, when using the TV as an HTPC monitor, it is very easy to pick up over-sharpening artifacts due to the high contrast UI elements and text elements that are displayed.
I have mine hooked up to my HTPC and text is very blurry at 0-10. It doesn't get better until about 12 or 13. Perhaps we are seeing the same thing but just have different opinions about it. At 0 it is honestly so blurry that I feel like I need glasses to focus on it properly.
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post #610 of 1091 Old 08-25-2014, 12:18 PM
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In following this discussion of sharpness I tuned in ESPN Sports Center, which always displays lots of text in the sidebar and bottom crawler. Moving the sharpness slider back and forth between 0 and 50 I detect very little - if any - difference in text definition. Above 20 I begin to notice artifacts at the margins of non-static images.

This is on my 51F5300.
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post #611 of 1091 Old 08-26-2014, 04:59 AM
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When I put up the sharpness and resolution test the haloing goes away right at 12 so that is where I keep it.
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post #612 of 1091 Old 08-26-2014, 06:53 AM
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My Cinema Smooth still seems to be ineffective with motion test and real test material........oh well. It's really a minor problem compared to other things.
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post #613 of 1091 Old 08-26-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by beardontwalk123 View Post
My Cinema Smooth still seems to be ineffective with motion test and real test material........oh well. It's really a minor problem compared to other things.
I'm curious about what test you are using to judge CS effectiveness. I could try the same on my panel when I get the chance.
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post #614 of 1091 Old 08-26-2014, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I'm curious about what test you are using to judge CS effectiveness. I could try the same on my panel when I get the chance.
I just bought the new Spears and Munsil 2nd edition Calibration disc and they have tests specifically measuring 24p and I do not see a difference with it on or off........I may not be testing right though. I have also tried some pan scenes from I am legend and it looks the same on and off also. My T.V. flickers with it on in bright scenes anyway. I do like the 24p if it works correctly though. I always thought that my eyes were pretty good at seeing it.
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post #615 of 1091 Old 08-26-2014, 10:22 PM
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Good news everyone!

I just posted results from some testing I did on my panel on the PN51F5300 thread but I think it would be good to share the results here as well.

I was mainly interested in looking at 2 things:

  1. Impact of APL on black level luminance. For this I used the ColorHCFR small and Large APL patterns on the AVSHD709 disc and compared against all black screen readings
  2. Impact of Black Optimizer set to Dark Room v/s Auto

Below is the raw data from my tests.

Full Black Screen

0.006733 cd/m2
0.001965 ftL

0% AVSHD709 ColorHCFR Small APL

0.007626 cd/m2
0.002226 ftL

0% AVSHD709 ColorHCFR Large APL
0.016267 cd/m2
0.004748 ftL

Black Optimizer Dark - 12% Window size
120.009136 cd/m2 (100% Gray - i.e White)
35.026287 ftL

0.006947 cd/m2 (0% Gray)
0.002028 ftL

Black Optimizer Auto - 12% Window size, 100% Gray (white)
144.127510 cd/m2 (100% Gray - i.e White)
42.065561 ftL

0.007023 cd/m2 (0% Gray)
0.002050 ftL

As you can see from the readings above, The small APL patterns do not exhibit an appreciable rise in black level. However, for the larger APL pattern, I do notice an increase of black level from ~0.002 ftL to ~ 0.005 ftL which is consistent with ChadB's measurements.

I was also thrilled to note that the Black Optimizer setting of Auto does in fact boost peak luminance of 100% white to ~42ftL from 35 ftL if BO is set to dark room. Moreover, this does not seem to degrade black level for all black scenes as both settings measured MLL of ~ 0.002 ftL.

Looks like I will now use Auto for daylight viewing as 42fL is I believe the max output this panel can produce (outside of Vivid mode) and it matches the peak luminance in Standard mode. I'll stick to Dark Room for night time viewing.

While there is some amount of "floating black" with my panel, I really don't notice it at all. Even at the higher APL setting, if I have 100% white on the screen in the image, the contrast ratio still works out to >7000 making it impossible for the eye to notice the slight rise in black level. There might be some edge cases where it may be noticeable to the discerning eye, but I just haven't seen it. What is far more obvious instead is the fact that blacks look really black when the image has any bright section in it (since our iris adapts accordingly)... but then if the screen transitions to an all black or very dim scene, suddenly the blacks don't melt into the bezel any more as our iris adapts again for the lower light. So in that sense, there is a perception of changing black levels, but it has more to do with the limited dynamic range of our eyes than the TV.

I do know that floating blacks were more evident and visible to me when I did not have brightness set correctly to get rid of the green dithering haze on screen for black screens. Once I set my brightness optimally, I have never noticed an issue of floating blacks.
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Last edited by orion2001; 08-26-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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post #616 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 03:34 PM
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Would you be interested in trying BO off?
(You know how much I hate "auto" ).

Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

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post #617 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 06:40 PM
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It's been almost a week since I received my 60f5300 and all I can say is WOW! It completely destroys my 7 year old Panasonic in every way. I was kind of worried about the pentile display but it is a non issue as this set (IMO) is plenty sharp. I'm thrilled with the performance, yet I'm disappointed that this will be the last plasma I'll ever own.

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HT: Samsung 60F5300B, Polk RTi8 Fronts, Polk CSi 5 Center, Power Sound Audio XS15-SE, Pioneer Elite SC-82.
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post #618 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 09:20 PM
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Lightbulb Heads up on Black Optimizer Auto (at least for A models)

So, I tried Black Optimizer Auto and while it did initially produce 41-42 fL on a 11% window (100% stim), I had to lower contrast considerably to avoid obvious discoloration on a 100% full field. In other words, when I was done light output was back at 35-36 fL. Anyone getting high fL numbers with small/medium windows should check full fields for discoloration at the top end.

On a separate note, the flesh tone setting does reduce skintone color errors (colorchecker SG fleshtones) simply by lowering the control. Errors went down dramatically as I lowered it from 0 to -7 (from most dEs over 3 to most under 1).
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post #619 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 09:24 PM
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Also worth mentioning is that the 10-pt settings are dramatically different when going from BO Dark Room to BO Auto. This might be partially resolvable by raising the gamma preset up 1 click.
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post #620 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Would you be interested in trying BO off?
(You know how much I hate "auto" ).
So I did some more quick tests. Here is the scoop on Black Optimizer:

Dark Room Setting - Black levels at ~0.002ftL, 100% white (12% window) ~35ftL
Bright Room Setting - Black levels at ~ 0.004-0.005ftL, 100% white (12% window) ~ 42ftL
Auto Setting - Black levels at ~ 0.002ftL, 100% white (12% window) ~ 42ftL

So looks like you may have to deal with using auto setting

It seems like Auto setting is somehow dynamic in nature, essentially translating between Dark and Bright room settings to get the best of both worlds. I have a suspicion that floating black levels may be more apparent with Auto mode if viewing in dark conditions since the native MLL for Bright room setting is 2X that of Dark room.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
So, I tried Black Optimizer Auto and while it did initially produce 41-42 fL on a 11% window (100% stim), I had to lower contrast considerably to avoid obvious discoloration on a 100% full field. In other words, when I was done light output was back at 35-36 fL. Anyone getting high fL numbers with small/medium windows should check full fields for discoloration at the top end.
I did some tests on my end. With 12% windows, switching between Black Room and Auto did not really change the balance of RGB much and 100% white was still very neutral but with the additional luminance in Auto setting.

With full fields, the RGB balance does change, but I see this issue even in Dark Room setting. I think this is more an artifact of how ABL works and a resulting change in relative RGB levels when it kicks in.

This is on my B model panel.
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
On a separate note, the flesh tone setting does reduce skintone color errors (colorchecker SG fleshtones) simply by lowering the control. Errors went down dramatically as I lowered it from 0 to -7 (from most dEs over 3 to most under 1).
Could you clarify as to what effect Skintone has on the location of skin tones on the CIE chart? Does it affect saturation or just purely Hue?
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post #621 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 10:13 PM
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Affects luminance and saturation
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post #622 of 1091 Old 08-27-2014, 10:17 PM
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Regarding rgb balance with full fields, lowering contrast will stop it from color shifting. The difference with auto as opposed to dark room is that you need to use a lower contrast setting to avoid the color shifting.

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-27-2014 at 10:17 PM.
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post #623 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 09:40 AM
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The new spears and munsil has new equal energy patterns specifically for meter reading. It evenly displays all of the 10 pts or colors on one screen with the step you are calibrating in the center. I think that is what I am going to use now in my TV calibrations.
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post #624 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 10:11 AM
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Sliding Power 2.22 Gamma (CalMAN 5) Black Optimzer Auto

--Picture menu
Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 87
Brightness: 45

Sharpness: 0
Color: 46
Tint: G50/R50

Picture size submenu:
Picture Size: Screen Fit

Advanced settings submenu:
Dynamic contrast: Off
Black tone: Off
Flesh tone: -7
RGB Only Mode: Off
Color space: Custom
White Balance: [see below]
10p White Balance: On
Gamma: 0
Expert Pattern: Off
Motion Lighting: Off [grayed out]

Color Space submenu:
Color Space: Custom
Red: Red 50, Green 0, Blue 0
Green: Red 0, Green 50, Blue 0
Blue: Red 0, Green 0, Blue 50
Yellow: Red 50, Green 50, Blue 0
Cyan: Red 0, Green 50, Blue 50
Magenta: Red 50, Green 0, Blue 50

White balance submenu:
R-Offset: 20
G-Offset: 25
B-Offset: 21
R-Gain: 22
G-Gain: 25
B-Gain: 22


10p White Balance submenu:
Interval 1: Red +5, Green +5, Blue +5
Interval 2: Red +7, Green +7, Blue +7
Interval 3: Red +8, Green +8, Blue +8
Interval 4: Red +7, Green +7, Blue +7
Interval 5: Red +6, Green +6, Blue +6
Interval 6: Red +3, Green +3, Blue +3
Interval 7: Red +4, Green +4, Blue +4
Interval 8: Red +3, Green +3, Blue +3
Interval 9: Red +10, Green +10, Blue +10
Interval 10: Red 0, Green 0, Blue 0


Picture options submenu
Color tone: Warm1
Digital Clean View: Off
MPEG Noise Filter: Off
HDMI black level: Normal [grayed out]
Film mode: Off [grayed out]
Black optimizer: Auto


*Stuff is blue is either affected by switching to BO Auto or related to skintones calibration (flesh tone setting)
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post #625 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Affects luminance and saturation
Do the luminance and saturation track together? I.e., increasing the flesh tone setting increases both and vice versa?
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post #626 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 10:27 AM
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Personally, it would make more sense to do a full color calibration rather than tweak just skin tones while keeping your CMS settings as you have. I think you could get more accuracy overall without needing to resort to flesh tone corrections. I understand your wanting more saturation, but the way I see it your reds are a bit on the oversaturated side, while blue is a bit undersaturated. It wouldn't be much more work to just nail a proper calibration with the CMS. After you have that, you could probably just push the global Color setting up a click or two to get an oversaturated look while having an easy way to get back to a calibrated mode for movie viewing, etc. CMS tweaks should also let you fix your greens.

Btw, you might want to specify your Panel type with your calibration settings in case someone else sees your posts and decides to try those settings.
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post #627 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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I do know that floating blacks were more evident and visible to me when I did not have brightness set correctly to get rid of the green dithering haze on screen for black screens. Once I set my brightness optimally, I have never noticed an issue of floating blacks.
Floating blacks on my set are worse when Cinema Smooth is turned on. I don't know if this is due to the increased black level, but in the same scenes where floating blacks are only a little noticeable with it off, they are very noticeable with it on. It's not due to brightness as I have to go -2 on the dial with Cinema Smooth on to remove dithering so they are on an even playing field. I have a good scene to test FB with. I can cut a sample and upload it here if you guys want to try it.

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post #628 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Floating blacks on my set are worse when Cinema Smooth is turned on. I don't know if this is due to the increased black level, but in the same scenes where floating blacks are only a little noticeable with it off, they are very noticeable with it on. It's not due to brightness as I have to go -2 on the dial with Cinema Smooth on to remove dithering so they are on an even playing field. I have a good scene to test FB with. I can cut a sample and upload it here if you guys want to try it.
I'd be happy to test out a scene if you want to cut/upload a sample. I'm curious about this too, because I know for a fact that I did notice the floating black on my set originally with CS on, but at the time I had the green dithering noise due to non optimal brightness setting, I had Black optimizer set to Off, and I had not tweaked any panel voltages. I can test with CS on and off, as well as BO on and off to compare and see if it is noticeable.

PS - What are your black levels measuring to with CS on v/s off?
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post #629 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Affects luminance and saturation
Do the luminance and saturation track together? I.e., increasing the flesh tone setting increases both and vice versa?
Yes

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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Personally, it would make more sense to do a full color calibration rather than tweak just skin tones while keeping your CMS settings as you have. I think you could get more accuracy overall without needing to resort to flesh tone corrections. I understand your wanting more saturation, but the way I see it your reds are a bit on the oversaturated side, while blue is a bit undersaturated. It wouldn't be much more work to just nail a proper calibration with the CMS. After you have that, you could probably just push the global Color setting up a click or two to get an oversaturated look while having an easy way to get back to a calibrated mode for movie viewing, etc. CMS tweaks should also let you fix your greens.

Btw, you might want to specify your Panel type with your calibration settings in case someone else sees your posts and decides to try those settings.
Well, I have done cms calibration before and it did not really affect skin tones part of the sg color checker Flesh Tone set, which is 17 different skin tones. Try measuring this with your set and see if your cms calibration alone gets these measures right.

BTW, I don't care about the minor gamut errors I have now. For all I know using the cms with one pattern size and type might make it worse for another.

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-28-2014 at 01:37 PM.
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post #630 of 1091 Old 08-28-2014, 02:02 PM
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Yes

Well, I have done cms calibration before and it did not really affect skin tones part of the sg color checker Flesh Tone set, which is 17 different skin tones. Try measuring this with your set and see if your cms calibration alone gets these measures right.

BTW, I don't care about the minor gamut errors I have now. For all I know using the cms with one pattern size and type might make it worse for another.
I found that nailing the primaries and secondaries (especially saturations) did help with the skin tones. But I agree with you, you're at the point of diminishing returns and I don't think there is a lot more to gain tweaking this further.
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