Panasonic ZT60 and VT60 Fan/Fridge Noise Production Numbers - Page 50 - AVS Forum
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post #1471 of 1511 Old 07-15-2014, 05:52 PM
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Have you tried increasing the size of the holes? That should reduce the temperature but may not result in a increase in fan noise. It's been suggested the fan noise is not really the fans themselves but harmonics from the rear cover. Just a thought.
When the cover was off, I could not hear the fans.
So it was either that they were horizontal or the cover is adding noise and amplifying vibration.


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post #1472 of 1511 Old 07-15-2014, 08:06 PM
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Have you tried increasing the size of the holes? That should reduce the temperature but may not result in a increase in fan noise. It's been suggested the fan noise is not really the fans themselves but harmonics from the rear cover. Just a thought.
yes, it does seem to be harmonics. depending where i sit in the room i can hear it or not hear it... really irritating, since the only place i hear it is really the only place i sit in the room 11 feet back from the TV. the pitch is at a frequency that seems to bounce off the walls.

i'll try making another set with wider holes and see how that goes. i guess the ideal way to do this would be to get the temperature as close to possible as not having them.
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post #1473 of 1511 Old 07-15-2014, 08:28 PM
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Room acoustics due to size and shape and how open it is plays a big part too. Among other things like model and size tv. Volum levels, with or without surround sound. All these differing variables is why it's a diffrent reported expierence by everyone.
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post #1474 of 1511 Old 07-15-2014, 08:46 PM
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When the cover was off, I could not hear the fans.
So it was either that they were horizontal or the cover is adding noise and amplifying vibration.


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okay, making the hole bigger did make it a bit louder. the hottest the inside of the cover got was 134F.

just how much of a fire hazard is this? or will it burn out the components in the TV faster/prematurely?
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post #1475 of 1511 Old 07-15-2014, 09:44 PM
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okay, making the hole bigger did make it a bit louder. the hottest the inside of the cover got was 134F.

just how much of a fire hazard is this? or will it burn out the components in the TV faster/prematurely?
Bigger holes raised the temperature?

Anyway, have you tried with just one or two of the fans covered? (The center one should be the least noisy one, it is the one that doesn't have any additional foam applied for "the fix".)

Seems to me my set does run hotter/noiser during the summer months, though I don't hear it so much any more, except when I turn it off after turning the receiver (audio) off beforehand. Do have a bit of tape covering the fan exhaust, at the time I put it in place it did seem to reduce the noise a bit (not enough) and didn't seem to matter with respect to how warm/hot the back got.

Like with the other minor annoyances with the set (except for some pesky IR), I don't really pay it much mind any more, but still wouldn't mind a quick fix.
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post #1476 of 1511 Old 07-16-2014, 09:00 AM
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Bigger holes raised the temperature?

Anyway, have you tried with just one or two of the fans covered? (The center one should be the least noisy one, it is the one that doesn't have any additional foam applied for "the fix".)

Seems to me my set does run hotter/noiser during the summer months, though I don't hear it so much any more, except when I turn it off after turning the receiver (audio) off beforehand. Do have a bit of tape covering the fan exhaust, at the time I put it in place it did seem to reduce the noise a bit (not enough) and didn't seem to matter with respect to how warm/hot the back got.

Like with the other minor annoyances with the set (except for some pesky IR), I don't really pay it much mind any more, but still wouldn't mind a quick fix.
oh no, making the holes bigger didn't increase the temp, i'm just saying in general the hottest inside one of the foam covers i measured was 134F. i notice that i need to have them all covered to almost eliminate the sound.
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post #1477 of 1511 Old 07-16-2014, 03:48 PM
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oh no, making the holes bigger didn't increase the temp, i'm just saying in general the hottest inside one of the foam covers i measured was 134F. i notice that i need to have them all covered to almost eliminate the sound.
Got it. I had the tv running a bit with no sound earlier today, was actually pretty loud, at least off to the side. But with the avr at normal volume, didn't notice it at all. Probably been a while since a suitably quiet movie has been attempted, it would seem.

(It was a pretty quiet day around here mostly, though my flakey internet made it even quieter for most of the day... brief respite for now...)
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post #1478 of 1511 Old 08-19-2014, 07:14 PM
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Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
MK32940782
October, 2013
A14934

Has fan noise.

From the manufacturing date, would it already have the foam fix? If so, was anything else found that helped?

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1479 of 1511 Old 08-19-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post
Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
MK32940782
October, 2013
A14934

Has fan noise.

From the manufacturing date, would it already have the foam fix? If so, was anything else found that helped?
That date should already have the fan fix in place.

There's a lot of DIY stuff that some has said has helped to quiet the fans.
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post #1480 of 1511 Old 08-20-2014, 10:15 AM
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That date should already have the fan fix in place.

There's a lot of DIY stuff that some has said has helped to quiet the fans.
I can see the foam "fix" looking at the back of the unit. It does not appear to fix the problem, or at least not fully fix it.

Pushing gently on the back of the panel to the left of the fan on the left (when looking at the back), I can feel it deflect slightly.

That means the back is really a drum. If turbulent flow forms in the exhaust area and happens to sync up with the resonant frequency of the "drum", even tiny initial effects could turn into unacceptably large amounts of noise.

Removing the back would of course make the problem go away. The foam "fix" might, depending on placement of foam, reduce the resonance and thereby the noise, without actually attacking the root cause. (Noise reduction due to the foam "fix" would just be a side effect of the foam.)

Did anyone try adding mass damping to the back of the TV? I'm thinking some thick, heavy blocks of viscoelastic material might snub the oscillations and make the problem go away.

Similarly, chunks of viscoelastic material thick enough to contact both the inside wall and the inside of the back might prevent it from vibrating.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1481 of 1511 Old 08-20-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post

Did anyone try adding mass damping to the back of the TV? I'm thinking some thick, heavy blocks of viscoelastic material might snub the oscillations and make the problem go away.

Similarly, chunks of viscoelastic material thick enough to contact both the inside wall and the inside of the back might prevent it from vibrating.
Not sure that's been tried. Might work since the problem appears to be vibration of the rear cover. I've wonder about whether it would work as well. But I'm lucky since the fans on my 60 ZT aren't loud enough motivate my to find a solution. Let us know if it works.
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post #1482 of 1511 Old 08-22-2014, 08:46 PM
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Mass damping probably won't work. I pressed on the back pretty hard--certainly hard enough to shut down any vibrations--and it had no effect.

The reason I thought it might be resonance with the back is that the back is made of thin flimsy metal. You can see that by pressing on it. So it would be pretty easy to vibrate.

But now I think it could be beat frequencies among the small amount of sound generated by each fan. Remove the back, the sound radiates spherically from each fan and is dispersed. Leave the back on, the sound is trapped in the layer between the back and the main body of the panel.

If that's true, the various types of airflow diverters don't address the root cause.

The foam "fix", being inside the gap between the back and the main body of the panel could help by acting like small separators. But they're imperfect because they're porous.

Did anyone try isolating the airflows behind the panel with vertical separators, so they can't interact?

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1483 of 1511 Old 08-22-2014, 09:56 PM
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Did anyone try isolating the airflows behind the panel with vertical separators, so they can't interact?
Not on this forum. Only fix I've read about has been foam, various baffles or the plunger.
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post #1484 of 1511 Old 08-22-2014, 10:17 PM
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Did anyone try:

- Shutting off all but one fan (briefly). If noise goes away, beat-frequency theory is substantiated.

- Installing inline fan speed control(s).

- Installing larger, slower fans (same CFU, but possibly less noise). Might require external mounting, but so be it.

Also, what have people used to measure before and after temperatures?

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1485 of 1511 Old 08-23-2014, 08:31 PM
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You folks rock!

I made a set of vents from thin duct aluminum (cut it easily with a pair of Milwaukee Jobsite Offset Scissors). Used the Top Gun template, bent them with some plywood, stuck them on with 3M Outside mounting tape, and it made a huge difference.

The tape is rated for 175 F, so it should be fine. The vents don't even get very warm--probably because the large surface area and use of aluminum makes them able to shed heat easily.

I mounted my vents open upwards instead of downwards, because trapping heat bothered me. That means dust can collect, but I have an air compressor already to (gently) blow gunk out of the Martin Logans, and it will work on the vents too.

I also added a middle vent for the heck of it.

While messing with this, I noticed that pulling the panel a few inches out from the wall dropped the sound even more, so it's definitely a reflection problem. Ironically this means if Panasonic tested in an anechoic chamber, they could have missed it. (This also means adding some anechoic material on the wall behind the panel might help, and I'm going to try that to see if further improvements are possible.)

Probably the air cavity between the main panel body and back, normal plasma electronics buzzing (which you can hear with your ear up against the back air holes), airflows, fans, and flimsy back material conspire to create beat frequencies inside the cavity that are then spewn out the back by the fans. Separators wouldn't (probably) work in that case, because the electronics that need to be cooled can't be separated from the fans (unless the beats come from interactions among the fans, in which case it would be a nice fix, but we'll never know because once the vents work, nobody wants to pursue other solutions).

It's a real shame Panasonic didn't finish the engineering. They were so close. (And it's a horrible shame they gave up on plasma.)

Hope this thing gives years and years of service.
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My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit

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post #1486 of 1511 Old 08-24-2014, 07:09 AM
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You folks rock!

I made a set of vents from thin duct aluminum (cut it easily with a pair of Milwaukee Jobsite Offset Scissors). Used the template, bent them with some plywood, stuck them on with 3M Outside mounting tape, and it made a huge difference.

The tape is rated for 175 F, so it should be fine. The vents don't even get very warm--probably because the large surface area and use of aluminum makes them able to shed heat easily.

I mounted my vents open upwards instead of downwards, because trapping heat bothered me. That means dust can collect, but I have an air compressor already to (gently) blow gunk out of the Martin Logans, and it will work on the vents too.

I also added a middle vent for the

While messing with this, I noticed that pulling the panel a few inches out from the wall dropped the sound even more, so it's definitely a reflection problem. Ironically this means if Panasonic tested in an anechoic chamber, they could have missed it. (This also means adding some anechoic material on the wall behind the panel might help, and I'm going to try that to see if further improvements are possible.)

Probably the air cavity between the main panel body and back, normal plasma electronics buzzing (which you can hear with your ear up against the back air holes), airflows, fans, and flimsy back material conspire to create beat frequencies inside the cavity that are then spewn out the back by the fans. Separators wouldn't (probably) work in that case, because the electronics that need to be cooled can't be separated from the fans (unless the beats come from interactions among the fans, in which case it would be a nice fix, but we'll never know because once the vents work, nobody wants to pursue other solutions).

It's a real shame Panasonic didn't finish the engineering. They were so close. (And it's a horrible shame they gave up on plasma.)

Hope this thing gives years and years of service.
Your design looks similar to the Top Gun. Is it based on the Top Gun?
Glad it helped with the fan noise.
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post #1487 of 1511 Old 08-24-2014, 11:44 AM
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Not on this forum. Only fix I've read about has been foam, various baffles or the plunger.
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Your design looks similar to the Top Gun. Is it based on the Top Gun?
Glad it helped with the fan noise.
Yes, that's what I meant by "Used the template.". I edited it to make it clear it's the Top Gun template.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1488 of 1511 Old 08-24-2014, 12:47 PM
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Probably the air cavity between the main panel body and back, normal plasma electronics buzzing (which you can hear with your ear up against the back air holes), airflows, fans, and flimsy back material conspire to create beat frequencies inside the cavity that are then spewn out the back by the fans. Separators wouldn't (probably) work in that case, because the electronics that need to be cooled can't be separated from the fans (unless the beats come from interactions among the fans, in which case it would be a nice fix, but we'll never know because once the vents work, nobody wants to pursue other solutions).
One thing you might want to also try is the small rubber washers on the fan screws fix to snug the fans themselves up a little, apparently it can have some impact on the vibrations and subsequently the noise level. Back around December this was discussed here, one of the posts from back then indicated/pictured specific washers used (neoprene 5/32 inch ones from home depot).

Of course you have to take the back off, and then correctly put it back on as well.
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post #1489 of 1511 Old 08-30-2014, 01:04 PM
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And in a related note: My plasma TV causes my subs to hum.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1490 of 1511 Old 08-30-2014, 02:21 PM
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And in a related note: My plasma TV causes my subs to hum.
My zt caused the UPS it was plugged into to hum. Maybe try plugging tv (and/or subs) directly into the wall instead, worked for me.

Currently I have my TV and sub plugged into the wall (through a cheap power strip surge protector, just in case, but for a bit they were directly plugged into the wall). I just unplug the power strip, after turning the tv and sub off and waiting a minute or two, whenever the lightning is about to roll in. Been doing that a lot this summer...
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post #1491 of 1511 Old 08-30-2014, 03:16 PM
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My zt caused the UPS it was plugged into to hum. Maybe try plugging tv (and/or subs) directly into the wall instead, worked for me.

Currently I have my TV and sub plugged into the wall (through a cheap power strip surge protector, just in case, but for a bit they were directly plugged into the wall). I just unplug the power strip, after turning the tv and sub off and waiting a minute or two, whenever the lightning is about to roll in. Been doing that a lot this summer...
The TV is plugged into an in-wall power conditioner from Chief. The subs are plugged into separate circuits.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1492 of 1511 Old 08-31-2014, 09:05 AM
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The TV is plugged into an in-wall power conditioner from Chief. The subs are plugged into separate circuits.
Ok, have you tried plugging the tv into a plain old wall plug instead? [Or plugging the tv into the same circuit as the subs?] [Or...] A little experimentation may relieve you of a good portion of your plasma buzz related issues.

I recall a few others with similar issues in their zt60 setups, a little (or a lot of) trial and error fixed them up too. Just like for me removing the zt60 from the UPS fixed me up with my issue (minor plasma buzz amplified by significant UPS buzz accompaniment).
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post #1493 of 1511 Old 09-01-2014, 01:34 AM
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Would it be better to use a foam strip or a more firm substance such as a silicone based strip? Wouldn't the latter keep the fan in place even more securely as opposed to foam?

Panasonic GT50 55"
Pansaonic VT60 60"
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Would it be better to use a foam strip or a more firm substance such as a silicone based strip? Wouldn't the latter keep the fan in place even more securely as opposed to foam?
I wondered about that too. But perhaps Panasonic is counting on the foam being permeable and letting air flow through it sideways. Silicone is closed-cell, so it would isolate the fan from the rest of the air cavity between the main body of the panel and the back covering. Which might not be good.

If you let one of these panels run for a couple of hours and then touch the metal trim around the outside edge, that sucker is *hot*. So I'm wary of anything that messes with the airflow. I thought about renting a thermosensor to see the effect of various tweaks, but once the vents worked, kind of lost interest.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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I asked several acoustics suppliers for recommendations, and several said to get Owens Corning 703.

After much googling, I found single panels of the stuff from atsacoustics.com. Bought the 1" and 2", and am going to play around with them to see which works best.

The idea is to eliminate remaining reflected noise by deadening the area directly behind the back of the panel, on the wall.

One of the acoustics suppliers (gikacoustics.com) confirmed that moving the panel out from the wall also helps, by:

- Lowering the frequency that is comb filtering

- Allowing the sound and air to spread more prior to bouncing back

- Providing less boundary reinforcement

When I pulled the panel out 6", the sound was basically gone. At 3" it's still there (although greatly reduced due to the vents).

I'm hoping the fiberglass 703 will kill the sound with the panel closer to the wall.

With the 2" fiberglass, I need to leave the panel about 4" from the wall to ensure airflow.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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post #1496 of 1511 Old 09-01-2014, 12:56 PM
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I wondered about that too. But perhaps Panasonic is counting on the foam being permeable and letting air flow through it sideways. Silicone is closed-cell, so it would isolate the fan from the rest of the air cavity between the main body of the panel and the back covering. Which might not be good.

If you let one of these panels run for a couple of hours and then touch the metal trim around the outside edge, that sucker is *hot*. So I'm wary of anything that messes with the airflow. I thought about renting a thermosensor to see the effect of various tweaks, but once the vents worked, kind of lost interest.
Interesting. If that's the case, then what if we used a rigid silicone based strip, and for each strip, cut it into 3 small strips, allowing air "air channels" in between? I think it may provide even better stability with possibly equal or better air flow than what i believe will be a very restrictive airflow going through the foam. what do you think?

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Interesting. If that's the case, then what if we used a rigid silicone based strip, and for each strip, cut it into 3 small strips, allowing air "air channels" in between? I think it may provide even better stability with possibly equal or better air flow than what i believe will be a very restrictive airflow going through the foam. what do you think?
Might work, or might create whistling turbulence. Fortunately (if the panel is on the stand) it's easy to try different options.

Another thing to consider is using viscoelastic damping material instead of neoprene washers, to snub out more vibrations.

My system? Google for: Martin Logan 420 CLX Descent Stage Summit
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Might work, or might create whistling turbulence. Fortunately (if the panel is on the stand) it's easy to try different options.

Another thing to consider is using viscoelastic damping material instead of neoprene washers, to snub out more vibrations.
That would be pretty comical if after i was done, the tv started whistling. . So, from what i have been reading, adding the foam and or washers basically eliminates the oscillating sounds, but the fan sound is still there? I think i would be ok, if the sound were constant.. My old VT50 had the fan noise as well, but i could only notice it was there once i shut the tv off, so it wasn't bad at all..

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post #1499 of 1511 Old 09-02-2014, 02:32 AM
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That would be pretty comical if after i was done, the tv started whistling. . So, from what i have been reading, adding the foam and or washers basically eliminates the oscillating sounds, but the fan sound is still there? I think i would be ok, if the sound were constant.. My old VT50 had the fan noise as well, but i could only notice it was there once i shut the tv off, so it wasn't bad at all..
I'd go back and check about the the washers, but my recollection is that they additionally reduced the fan noise above and beyond the official foam fix by a not insignificant amount, not sure they eliminate it altogether. The washers would attack the issue from the top of the fan, the foam from the bottom. (If I understand/remember how they are each applied.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmalczewski View Post
I'd go back and check about the the washers, but my recollection is that they additionally reduced the fan noise above and beyond the official foam fix by a not insignificant amount, not sure they eliminate it altogether. The washers would attack the issue from the top of the fan, the foam from the bottom. (If I understand/remember how they are each applied.)
I'm probably going to take the back cover off this weekend,, I'm just going to add the washers, and the foam, then before i hang it on the wall, I will probably tape a piece of felt on the wall right it,hoping it might deaden the sound a bit. At this point, that is all I can really do, and if all that reduces the oscillating and overall fan noise by 50% I'd be ok with that..

Panasonic GT50 55"
Pansaonic VT60 60"
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