2013 Panasonic S60 & S64 DIY Noise Reduction Experiments - illustrated - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 105 Old 07-01-2013, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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More testing to do, but it appears that my panel is now easily my quietest appliance & electronic device.

Now my fridge over in the kitchen sounds too loud. Always did. It's relatively new, so rather than replace it with another fridge disappointment, I ordered in acoustical foam tiles and some other stuff to surround it with while still letting it exhaust heat.

I took some steps to cut the noise from my PS3's fan in half and silenced some new TV stand fans... been waging jihad against noise recently. But I guess that's all for another thread... biggrin.gif
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post #32 of 105 Old 07-01-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Interesting. That's where I hear it from, too. But only when I induce it. With screws loose, applying light squeezing force between the back panel and upper bezel can immediately start an audible buzz. Squeeze a little bit more or less and it is GONE.

I'm the guy that posted about the increased buzz when applying pressure to the bezel and/ or loosening the middle screw on the side with the control buttons. On my 50" model, the buttons are on the left side when facing the panel. I'm able to reproduce the increased/higher pitch buzzing if I press against the metal back just above the buttons. The metal piece seems to jut out above the power button and if I press anywhere in that area with a reasonable amount of pressure, I can hear a higher pitched buzz.

When I had briefly loosened the screws on that side, the buzzing became far louder than before and after doing so. I've peered into the back of the set through the vent holes and I noticed a connection relatively close to the edge so I am wondering if the pressure to the metal creates an interference with that part of the panel. Either way, it's certainly not normal to operate with the screws loose, nor is it normal to apply pressure to the back of the panel, so I've let that sleeping dog lie.

I will continue to follow this thread, but I am still of the mindset that over time these pops will diminish like the popping i once experienced with my old VU42LF Vizio.
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post #33 of 105 Old 07-01-2013, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Today/this heat cycle 'tick report':

1 super minor 'tick' 8 minutes into warmup. No other noises in 3 hours of video with sound off. And that includes when quickly dropping room temp by 10 degrees with swamp cooler. This is promising, but this one wasn't a full heat cycle; the TV was still somewhat warm when this 3 hour session started.

Maybe another couple of heat cycles of testing tomorrow - although, I don't know how much more vid I'll be doing without sound. It's pretty boring. rolleyes.gif
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post #34 of 105 Old 07-02-2013, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Cravit8,

Input appreciated. Your post borders on prescience. To wit:

It can be difficult to abandon a lot of work, but the truth is: The magnet sheets did more in 5 minutes than hours of work and testing on screws and rubber washers combined.

Other things that make me want to go a different direction with this:

1.) Using only 2 or 4 screws to hold on the back panel might be 'ok' to a mechanical type, but it would probably seem too kludge like to normal people.

2.) As if to prove item 1 above, I found that heat had expanded the flange of the steel sheet metal back panel up and over even the chrome trim on the back of the bezel. It was tough to get the flange back in place and a little scary. I made this tool from 2 layers of magnet sheet with a thumb tab for easy removal. This is to keep a little bit of a gap at the tightest/worst spot of this sheet metal interference. If it's quiet with this in there, I may stealth it and leave it. If it's questionable, then it is only a tool to help keep proper gap until the screws are medium tight. The text I placed on the pic is too small. It says: "Top center screw" and that T3 needs dusted. rolleyes.gif

Why the rubber magnet sheet material? "When your only tool is a hammer, every job looks like a whack-a-mole." argh



3.) I decided that since the back panel really tries to slide down (gravity and all) when all the screws are loose, I would keep 3 O-rings each on the right and left sides to aid in keeping holes centered when the screws are loose so that I can...

4.) Use Techniwizard's technique of loosening all screws, bring the panel up to full temp and then tighten the screws medium tight. Nowhere nearly as tight as those 3 that were insanely tight courtesy of Panny.

(BTW, my final fix recommendation is probably not going to include the O-rings since it probably isn't going to include loosening ALL of the screws. But T3's screws were already loosened, so I needed something for alignment short of laying the panel down.)

T3 is set on "bake" right now. I'll probably give it 2 or 3 hours, then tighten the screws.

While the easybake is ongoing, may as well address the "haunted" pedestal cover. When I took those 4 screws loose, I heard hair-raising creaks, pops, cracks and groans. The tone, timbre and location make this cover suspect for at least one "flavor" of pop. wink.gif

Haunted pedestal cover viewed from the inside:



A felt pad kit is proven by Panny for killing noise in other areas, right? Ok, so in the below: Dollar Store "felt pad kit" on left, thinner craft store felt on right. The thinner stuff is in case the screws aren't long enough. I'll attempt to use this to quiet the pedestal cover only.



While T3 is warming up, I'll see if I can figure out which felt will work and get it on the "haunted pedestal cover".

mm

edit 1: T3 has been warming over an hour now with the screws loose. There was one slight 'tick' only audible because the sound is off. As predicted by Cavit8, the 'tick' absolutely pales to insignificance because of the sound dampening of the magnet sheets. Ok, back to exorcising the pedestal cover of its demons...

edit 2: The Dollar Store felt pads (the smaller thinner ones) are still too thick and not compressible enough. Here is why: The pedestal cover plastic is kind of thick yet Panny used the same tiny/short screws there. Not a lot of extra threads to play with.

The craft store scrap was half as thick and softer. In the pic below, I used garden variety clear tape to keep the homemade "felt washers" in place during assembly. Why: Once again, I want anything I do easily removable in case of swap or warranty work. The screws started fine and will have probably 3 threads of purchase once tight due to the soft felt compressing so much. The pedestal cover screws are loose right now for the remainder of the easybake period. Felt washers taped on:



I tightened the 4 screws just for a moment to see if there would be all kinds of creaking, cracking, groaning or other Haunted House noises as there was when turning the screws in the OEM pedestal cover. There was not. Dead silence. Once again, screws are loose until the TV is warmed up.

Note regarding felt: If you don't feel like installing felt washers, I suspect there would be no ill effects of simply loosening all 4 pedestal cover screws. As in: Take the screws down to point of contact, then back them off a half turn or so. ***For clarity, these are the tiny screws that hold the plastic cover on. NOT the large structural screws that hold the pedestal to the panel.

Added note: If I ever get to where I want to "tune" out a possible future buzz problem, the set has been super quiet during warmup with nothing more than magnet sheets and loose screws. I'm gonna try tight, though, since loose screws "feels like" an inelegant solution.

BTW, I installed M8 wall mount socket head bolts and washers - no rubber - and tightened them last night. This is so that anything that might work for my pedestal mounted TV from that time forward might also work for wall mounted TV's.

Very impressed with how quiet it is. Amazed, actually. I hope that is attainable after the screws are tightened, too. Headed for the finish line here...??
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post #35 of 105 Old 07-02-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellte2 View Post

I'm the guy that posted about the increased buzz when applying pressure to the bezel and/ or loosening the middle screw on the side with the control buttons. On my 50" model, the buttons are on the left side when facing the panel. I'm able to reproduce the increased/higher pitch buzzing if I press against the metal back just above the buttons. The metal piece seems to jut out above the power button and if I press anywhere in that area with a reasonable amount of pressure, I can hear a higher pitched buzz.

When I had briefly loosened the screws on that side, the buzzing became far louder than before and after doing so. I've peered into the back of the set through the vent holes and I noticed a connection relatively close to the edge so I am wondering if the pressure to the metal creates an interference with that part of the panel. Either way, it's certainly not normal to operate with the screws loose, nor is it normal to apply pressure to the back of the panel, so I've let that sleeping dog lie.

I will continue to follow this thread, but I am still of the mindset that over time these pops will diminish like the popping i once experienced with my old VU42LF Vizio.

kellte2,

Input appreciated. Sorry I had forgotten who had said that about the looseness adding to buzz near the buttons.

Agreed that many say the popping will usually decrease over time on its own.
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post #36 of 105 Old 07-02-2013, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I struggled with the toaster to try to get an accurate representation of what the magnets look like after painting them satin black. The camera simply isn't up to it, so it turned out dark. Krylon Fusion, etc.

The flash produces glare around the edges of the magnets and other places that just doesn't exist in real life. Also, the toastamatic makes the paint look rough but it is smooth. I probably need to buy a real camera. In a nutshell, virtually nobody is going to notice the magnets on the back unless I direct their attention there. With all the strange shapes in the back panel stamping, I suspect the rare person who might see them would believe they were put there during manufacture and think nothing of it.

If I had it to do again, would probably use flat black instead of satin. The hardware store out in the sticks only had satin, so ya' know..

The magnets are no longer very visible other than the center magnet that is painted candy brandywine or something like that. T3 logo on that one soon.

There are roughly 16 magnet patches of various sizes from small to large on T3 now and that used up about 4 sheets of this stuff - so about 3.5 pounds total. Then again, there were some scrap cuttings, so probably more like 3 pounds total.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120786297953?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

The ebay info for when the auction and/or link eventually goes down: "2 x 18x12" Blank Magnetic Sign Sheets - Blank Car Magnets" and the seller is "accent-graphic"

It was my first purchase from them. They shipped fast and seem to be a good seller. Shipping seemed high but I couldn't find anyone selling car magnet sheets for lower total cost for 4 sheets.

mm



edit: 16 magnet patches of various sizes will be way more than necessary. I went to wretched excess on these because T3 is intended to be the guinea pig to see if magnets damage the TV over time - so I figured I'd overkill it with more than anyone is likely to use.

If you decide you want to try some of these, I suggest waiting a few months to see if T3 lives or dies. PQ continues to look excellent. No visible effects whatsoever. With the gauss deflection of the steel back panel, I doubt magnetism would be measurable with garden variety equipment on the other side farther than 1/8" from the panel. And the magnetic polarity isn't cycling like it would be with an A/C electromagnet... well anyway, we'll see what happens.

I'll post some noise observations during or after the next few days and link in the S60 thread when I'm pretty much done with this exercise in OCD. It's been mighty quiet through 2 heat cycles this afternoon and evening but it's too early to say whether this has all been worth anything or not.
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post #37 of 105 Old 07-02-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

The buzz I hear is from the upper left and right rear speaker holes. The only time I heard buzz from the front was when I ran the whiter slides and it seemed to come out of the screen.

Just put my ear to the back panel again and can hear faint buzzing from all four corners where there are vent holes - so it's simply a case of where the sound can escape out of the TV. Whether it's a reflection of the buzzing from the screen emanating in all directions or something internal to the electronics, I suspect the former as simply the sound of plasma being excited. It's probably just like the sound of florescent bulbs and inherent to the technology and nothing you can really worry about unless you use it as a computer screen with no audio output most of the time. Now, loud screeching annoying buzzing that some can hear with TV sounds on is another matter.
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post #38 of 105 Old 07-02-2013, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

Just put my ear to the back panel again and can hear faint buzzing from all four corners where there are vent holes - so it's simply a case of where the sound can escape out of the TV. Whether it's a reflection of the buzzing from the screen emanating in all directions or something internal to the electronics, I suspect the former as simply the sound of plasma being excited. It's probably just like the sound of florescent bulbs and inherent to the technology and nothing you can really worry about unless you use it as a computer screen with no audio output most of the time. Now, loud screeching annoying buzzing that some can hear with TV sounds on is another matter.

Well, really it was only 'screeching' in that one really severe YouTube vid that first tuned me in on the basic sound. It is a grating sound at any level, IMHO. It appears to me that the twisting of everything depending on various tolerances like back panel, chassis, bezel, glass panel, etc can drive it from actual zero (nothing, nada) to some noise to way too much noise. Some believe buzz does not vary, but I am not in that camp any more.

After what I've just done in this thread, one thing I can tell you is that the flange of the back panel is NOWHERE near flat. Not even in the ballpark. I think if laid on a reference surface, it would be over 1/2" off. Not that this is bad... for a panel with this much stress in it? I think maybe Panny controlled it 'fairly' well. More on that in a bit.

I suppose that is to be expected with a thin stamped sheet metal back panel with this many bizarre shapes in it. Post stamping residual stress increases a lot the weirder the final shape is. Yeah, they try to reduce it with some stretching or wrinkling tricks to maybe make the flange "a bit" flatter. But back in reality, a tool and die maker is paid precious little to craft and maintain stamping dies. And a low price point product is going to have those budgets even more limited than say - an ST or VT or ZT60.

Anyway, I'm fortunate that my TV is going to be effectively buzz free with the screws tight. And that is simply: "luck of the draw".

Now that I'm totally tuned into the sound, I can hear a hint of buzz with my ear 6" from the upper left rear vent from behind the panel - but only with the audio OFF. Left as in: perspective from the viewers seated position. I can't hear it even from behind the panel if even slight sound is on. I absolutely cannot hear it from viewing position; not even with the sound off.

I can't prove it, but now that I no longer accept that I'm supposedly deaf to the sound: I believe I've received yet a 2nd panel with low to no buzz. I really believe they freaking vary a LOT.

Anyway, while T3 only had very minor popping, I am so glad that I've got it stone quiet again. Yeah, I went OCD on it. But then, that comes from my background. Any decent mechanic (or former mech) probably has to be excessively target fixated, IMO. Especially for elusive or stubborn problems - and those were my specialty.

Your input is appreciated as always. I hope your 65PS64 never starts popping. However, if it manifests like mine did and it is very minor - and it's not enough to risk swapping the panel, the magnet sheets are freaking amazing. I continue to wonder if that is more because the magnet sign sheets are so good... or is it that ANY attenuation at all will help such a ridiculously resonant back panel. However, just as I said before, please wait a couple months to see if T3 maybe kicks the bucket due to the magnetic gauss. I don't really think the 'purdy panel' will kick it or I wouldn't be doing this, just saying, no sense anyone else taking the risk until some time passes so we can know more.

edit: When tightening the screws this time around, I'm fairly certain that the pesky/noisy top span of the back panel/panel/bezel has some silastic or "dum-dum" or putty in it. I felt that sort of soft compression when tightening the screws, but only in the top span. I suspect it is RTV or some other silastic since I've loosened and tightened the back panel a few times now - yet this soft compression feeling is resilient occurring again each time. Whereas, simple putty would feel this way once but then it would be extruded out of the way and the compression feeling would be gone in one shot.

Again, I only went medium tight. I'd be surprised if I have more than 15 inch pounds on the screws this time around. (That's scarcely more than a miniscule 1 foot pound. AKA, not very darned much - but definitely not loose.) I have some Proto gauge type calibrated inch pounds torque wrenches in various ranges. If I get (even more) bored, I may check a few to see how far my mech instincts are off. A screwdriver and a high end torque wrench are two different things for accuracy after all.
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post #39 of 105 Old 07-03-2013, 12:54 AM
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Just searched through the last dozen pages of the S60 thread for buzzing videos and found these:
Buzzing heard at the end of the video with a white slide (it is a higher pitch than the preceding white noise): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cVs7MRZbjA&feature=youtu.be
Another white slide video of buzzing (but harder to make out): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x443IzTHZyM
This starts out with a white slide, but ends with a red slide (I assume all the buzzing was during the white slide): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9m7PWayVbg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Since this is the "official" S60/S64 buzzing/popping resolution thread, I thought you might want to put these links on your first post. Note they are all with white slides - I don't consider this normal content - I'd like evidence of noticeable buzzing with normal motion video on screen, and then with noticeable buzzing over audio output.

Lastly, a repair video on how to fix buzzing in a 2011/2012 Panasonic plasma (involves replacing screws on circuit boards rather than the bezel/panel screws): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq2SZI04Byg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #40 of 105 Old 07-03-2013, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

Just searched through the last dozen pages of the S60 thread for buzzing videos and found these:
Buzzing heard at the end of the video with a white slide (it is a higher pitch than the preceding white noise): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cVs7MRZbjA&feature=youtu.be
Another white slide video of buzzing (but harder to make out): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x443IzTHZyM
This starts out with a white slide, but ends with a red slide (I assume all the buzzing was during the white slide): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9m7PWayVbg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Since this is the "official" S60/S64 buzzing/popping resolution thread, I thought you might want to put these links on your first post. Note they are all with white slides - I don't consider this normal content - I'd like evidence of noticeable buzzing with normal motion video on screen, and then with noticeable buzzing over audio output.

Lastly, a repair video on how to fix buzzing in a 2011/2012 Panasonic plasma (involves replacing screws on circuit boards rather than the bezel/panel screws): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq2SZI04Byg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It kinda' makes sense to me at least that replacing circuit board screws with some different design could make a difference. For example, the screws with lock washers used on later Panny panels - reportedly included in the 2013's. I added a reference to your post 39 in the thread start.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread!
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post #41 of 105 Old 07-03-2013, 06:55 AM
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MountainMichael,

I was intrigued on where the felt would be placed on the plastic pedestal cover, thank you for providing pictures; I must now look at my cover.

I'm glad you accomplished this much so far, a great thread for others. When you are finished, I would advise you to edit your first posts with your conclusive statements at the bottom so new readers can quickly see the results and then read the thread if they choose to elaborate on your trials.

Heat:
Do you have any conclusions about the heat dissipation with magnetic sheets in place? I am not familiar with the thermal conductivity of magnets, but my assumption is any material in place will dissipate heat the same or less, not more, and if less, would it be advantageous to spray adhere aluminum foil to the magnetic sheet's air-side?

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post #42 of 105 Old 07-03-2013, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cravit8 View Post

MountainMichael,

I was intrigued on where the felt would be placed on the plastic pedestal cover, thank you for providing pictures; I must now look at my cover.

I'm glad you accomplished this much so far, a great thread for others. When you are finished, I would advise you to edit your first posts with your conclusive statements at the bottom so new readers can quickly see the results and then read the thread if they choose to elaborate on your trials.

Heat:
Do you have any conclusions about the heat dissipation with magnetic sheets in place? I am not familiar with the thermal conductivity of magnets, but my assumption is any material in place will dissipate heat the same or less, not more, and if less, would it be advantageous to spray adhere aluminum foil to the magnetic sheet's air-side?

Cravit8,

I'm glad the exercise was of interest to you.

fwiw, info in some science threads on "black body emitters" (aka, BBE's) including some aircraft engine related studies indicate that a very thin coat of garden variety flat black spray paint can increase most common surface's heat rejection by a small amount. It is a fine line, though. Any emitter coating can quickly become self defeating if it is even slightly too thick because paint itself quickly becomes an insulator. Recommendations are to barely achieve surface "hiding" with the paint and STOP. No extra coats or what one gets is an insulator coating. The surfaces tested were metallic, so I doubt there is much reason to believe it would help on a polymer layer like the magnet sheets. I painted those mainly so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

Similarly, adhering aluminum could be problematic because most contact cement applications end up significantly thicker than an intentionally 'thinnest' paint coat and are thus an insulator - and will contain quite a few air bubbles; trapped air being another insulator. Very precise application of a specialized adhesive followed with rolling the aluminum down with a hard roller might reduce some of this.

Having said all of that, neither appears necessary. Testing with my IR temp gun strongly suggests that the magnets have had zero or near zero impact on the TV's heat at various room temps - baseline compared to after the magnets were installed. The 5 before and 5 after - heat measurements recorded in post 24 wouldn't be what I'd exactly call "expansive data", but since I didn't see so much as a bump, I decided not to worry it to death.

I infer from the measurements that the primary cooling of the panel's internal heat inside the back panel is convection. Aka, heat rises... so as air warms around the back surface of the glass panel and pc boards, the warm air rises exiting the top vents and this outflow in turn draws cool air into the lower or inlet air vents. I was surprised that the magnets had no apparent impact on operating temps because the rubber like (polymer) magnet sheets are pretty thick and clearly should add insulation value. Others have said that much of the primary heat of a plasma panel exits right out the front/glass side of the screen. I can't prove that, but it does seem to be suggested by the fact that as room temps rise, the glass side temp elevates at a faster rate than the back panel side. Still, I wasn't measuring warm air exit temps and some other variables, so I'm speculating on that.

The above was a surprise to me for sure, but it allowed me to go forward with the magnet testing that is underway now. Had the panel temps gone up much (or even noticeably), I'd have had to reject the idea and end magnet testing pronto. I like my S64 too much to knowingly place it at risk.

Considering the counter-intuitive nature of the above, I think I should include some mention in whatever summary I cobble up suggesting that if anyone wants to try this, they should buy a cheap IR temp gun and develop their own data if for no other reason than their own peace of mind. But also to take personal responsibility for any risk - perceived or actual. Also, if someone plans to run room temps significantly above 81f, they should definitely develop baseline data and similar info after the magnets are applied. That is, I don't know if sheet metal exterior air cooling (heat radiation) might become necessary at higher room temps.

I was planning to do a concise summary reducing all the leg work to what I suggest and what I don't. I like your idea, so I think I'll locate that at the beginning of post 1. I will reiterate that I'm not a TV tech guy and there are some (hopefully minor) risks involved, so people should follow their own counsel and take reasonable precautions. Located there, people looking for the quick fix don't have to read the whole diatribe if they lack the time or the interest in the steps tried and hypotheses discussed.

Oh, and one other thing I'll mention in there: Some people believe a plasma panel runs hotter than normal when new. I don't have an opinion on that, but maybe it is further suggested by opinions that plasma phosphors are somewhat "hyperactive" when new..? So maybe magnets shouldn't be tried for the first I dunno - 50 or 100 hours?? I should probably address that by asking for informed opinions. Anyone?

I'm going to edit the heat data in post 24 now to include the operational "age" of my panel right now. For this post, the testing was done in the area of 430 to 450 total hours on my S64.

Once again, I appreciate your valuable input.

mm


edit: I just added heat measurement 11 to post 24. It appears there may be 1* of increased temp on the back panel now that all 16 magnet pads are in place. All measurements with magnets prior had 10 pads - not yet painted.
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I'm not familiar with plasma technology, but with CRTs, I believe a magnet will distort the image by pulling the rays toward the magnet. Is there any chance the magnetic material will distort the plasma image?
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post #44 of 105 Old 07-03-2013, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

I'm not familiar with plasma technology, but with CRTs, I believe a magnet will distort the image by pulling the rays toward the magnet. Is there any chance the magnetic material will distort the plasma image?

As discussed in depth earlier in the thread, I definitely have some concerns. This is not a quick fix I can recommend yet. I'm testing it right now - and probably will still call it unproven for 2 or 3 months.

For similar concerns, I've been watching PQ like a hawk. So far, I've seen no degradation in PQ whatsoever. However, I believe there is some possibility of a PQ problem over time or (remotely possibly) even a total failure. This is why I recommend others wait a few months and let T3 be the guinea pig.

These are comparatively weak magnets, not at all like a big electromagnet or one of the permanent super magnet types (neodymium or cobalt alloys, etc). Also, the back panel is thin steel sheet metal. So the magnetic field on the other side is weaker still. And a weak magnetic field diminishes very rapidly with small distance. This is my hypothesis of why the magnetism hasn't caused any noticeable problems.... YET.

An example of how weak the magnets are: Even when applied on the exterior, I don't feel magnetic pull almost until point of contact. So this may be worth trying on a popping LCD - but only if a person:

1.) Waits a few months to see if it damages or kills T3
2.) Carefully measures temps before and after any magnets
3.) Is willing to accept the risk.

A possibly lower risk or plan B is to use less magnet pads because 16 absolutely are not necessary to do a good job of deadening the back panel. I believe 8 would do it in good locations. An even lower risk plan C if this thick auto sign magnet material doesn't work out is: PC printable magnet paper. It is weaker still and considerably thinner. The second meaning less heat insulation potential, as well.

For now, I'm still testing plan A. I'm less jumpy about the magnets than I was 3 days ago - but still nowhere near confident enough to recommend this.

I think I'll load slides for a bit so I can hyper scrutinize the screen for any PQ aberrations that might be related to the magnets.


edit: Scrutinizing with slides was a little scary for just a minute there. But I figured out what the hint of image is that I'm seeing when I saw the word "Amazon" ghosted in one corner. I've matched up the rest now: It's Amazon Instant Vids menu for The Jeff Dunham show. I fell asleep last night with Amazon running and didn't set the sleep timer. There is some IR is what it is, so I'll have to flip some pixels after all. Sigh of relief; no signs of distortion from magnets. But then if you think about it, the magnetic field probably doesn't extend 1/8" past the other side of the steel sheet metal and the back panel is 2.5" deep... so I wasn't concerned for the plasma pixels in the first place. I was/am more worried about whether any magnetism will cause problems with a pc board since those are closer to the steel back panel.

For IR fanatics: It is slight and not visible in normal content nor even in several of the slides. It does prove to me that I'll need to be checking slides as a clearer visual for possible PQ problems related to magnets. So far, none of that. Just sleepyhead mm causing Amazon IR.
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Scrutinizing with slides was a little scary for just a minute there. But I figured out what the hint of image is that I'm seeing when I saw the word "Amazon" ghosted in one corner. I've matched up the rest now: It's Amazon Instant Vids menu for The Jeff Dunham show. I fell asleep last night with Amazon running and didn't set the sleep timer. There is some IR[/B] is what it is, so I'll have to flip some pixels after all.

For IR fanatics: It is slight and not visible in normal content nor even in several of the slides. Just sleepyhead mm causing Amazon IR.

Oh crap, now I'll have to go and run slides to make sure I don't have IR from falling asleep with the calibration pattern on for some 1.5 hours last week. I think this is one of those if you don't see (hear) it with normal content, don't worry. Or if it ain't broke, don't fix it (hah - goes against this whole thread!).

Btw, contrary to what I previously said, the 4 hour no activity off timer is useful - I fell asleep Sunday night while trying to set up my HTPC, and I woke up later and noticed the screen was off, then nodded off again on the sofa and when I finally woke up in the morning, it was still off, but my AVR was still on. I'll have to look up the sleep timer function soon. Problem is I'm usually racing against the light of pre-dawn just to get my calibrations in as well as trying to set up my HTPC. I average 2-5 hours sleep a night and staying up fiddling around with the TV and/or HTPC instead of going to bed when I could potentially get 4+ hours sleep instead of 2 is not helping...
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Oh crap, now I'll have to go and run slides to make sure I don't have IR from falling asleep with the calibration pattern on for some 1.5 hours last week. I think this is one of those if you don't see (hear) it with normal content, don't worry. Or if it ain't broke, don't fix it (hah - goes against this whole thread!).

Btw, contrary to what I previously said, the 4 hour no activity off timer is useful - I fell asleep Sunday night while trying to set up my HTPC, and I woke up later and noticed the screen was off, then nodded off again on the sofa and when I finally woke up in the morning, it was still off, but my AVR was still on. I'll have to look up the sleep timer function soon. Problem is I'm usually racing against the light of pre-dawn just to get my calibrations in as well as trying to set up my HTPC. I average 2-5 hours sleep a night and staying up fiddling around with the TV and/or HTPC instead of going to bed when I could potentially get 4+ hours sleep instead of 2 is not helping...

I wouldn't sweat it. Not visible during vid content means it will easily go away on its own.

Funny you should mention the no activity timer. I'd just turned that off last night figuring I would assuredly set sleep timer when I got drowsy... and then awoke like 5 a.m., so the thing was on the menu for probably 6 or 7 hours, I don't know. If the IR (or more likely, just static image) persists tonight, I may give it a couple hours of flipper. No biggie.

Noise update: One tick so minor I couldn't localize it. It might have been the dishwasher, I don't know. I'm a little paranoid right now about every little noise in the house. Only reason I heard it was the sound was off at that time. T3 is now a VERY quiet TV.
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Noise update: One tick so minor I couldn't localize it. It might have been the dishwasher, I don't know. I'm a little paranoid right now about every little noise in the house. Only reason I heard it was the sound was off at that time. T3 is now a VERY quiet TV.

A few hours after sticking my ear all around the back panel and an inch from the front of my TV trying to localize the buzz, I heard this loud buzzing while FFwarding my DVR and even with it paused and muted - WTF?? - I repeated the ear scoping and couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from, then figured it was from outside and sure enough was coming in my kitchen window.

How's this idea for eliminating pops - just leave the back panel completely off - but then you might have loud buzzing... (where's the :?: lightbulb smiley when you need it?) rolleyes.gif
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I thought your pop fix sounded amusing, so I clicked on "helpful". biggrin.gif

I hear ya'. I thought I heard buzzing yesterday, turned off the TV... and... NO difference. It was my PS3 fan at a certain speed. I have a small towel covering that side of the TV stand now 'cause the 2 exhaust fans in the TV stand can still draw plenty of air. That towel looks dumb but cuts the PS3 fan noise by about 1/2. <-- A towel probably doesn't deserve the light bulb emoticon you mentioned, eh? wink.gif

Ordered a bunch of stuff in to try to get my fridge quieter. I hope. Sigh. At some point, I think I'll just turn the freakin' audio up. rolleyes.gif

About leaving the back panel off: I know you were probably jk. But from what I saw, I think the common twist that is in the back panel may be the cause for some buzzing. So I think some panels might actually shut up but some would start buzzing or get louder. It's a crapshoot, I think.
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I hear ya'. I thought I heard buzzing yesterday, turned off the TV... and... NO difference. It was my PS3 fan at a certain speed. I have a small towel covering that side of the TV stand now 'cause the 2 exhaust fans in the TV stand can still draw plenty of air. That towel looks dumb but cuts the PS3 fan noise by about 1/2. <-- A towel probably doesn't deserve the light bulb emoticon you mentioned, eh? wink.gif

My brother bought an Xbox 360 that had the jet-on-the-tarmac-noise and I expected the same when I bought Sony's console 8 months later only to be amazed at how quiet it was; the noise level was way below my expectations. Then I sold it last October in anticipation of using the money toward a PS3 Super Slim for $200 on Black Friday. Worst. Decision. Ever.
It constantly overheats and is louder. WTH?!

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I thought I heard buzzing yesterday, turned off the TV... and... NO difference. It was my PS3 fan at a certain speed. I have a small towel covering that side of the TV stand now 'cause the 2 exhaust fans in the TV stand can still draw plenty of air. That towel looks dumb but cuts the PS3 fan noise by about 1/2. <-- A towel probably doesn't deserve the light bulb emoticon you mentioned, eh? wink.gif

Ordered a bunch of stuff in to try to get my fridge quieter. I hope. Sigh. At some point, I think I'll just turn the freakin' audio up. rolleyes.gif

Yeah, the two 120 mm fans at low speed in my HTPC are way louder than any buzzing from the TV.

My fridge was never noticeable until the one time I had everything off and was about to listen for buzzing.

My A/C is way louder than the fridge when it's blowing.
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Yeah, the two 120 mm fans at low speed in my HTPC are way louder than any buzzing from the TV.

My fridge was never noticeable until the one time I had everything off and was about to listen for buzzing.

My A/C is way louder than the fridge when it's blowing.

I'd put two 120mm 5v CoolerGuys fans in my TV stand and they were too loud believe it or not. I bought an RoHS 3v 1.5a wall wart and added a molex connector. Molex extension between fans. That shut them up. Probably not an option with your HTPC. When did 120's get so noisy??

I'm using a swamp cooler due to the dry mountain air. It's in a spare bedroom and I control it with my Harmony and a little IR eyeball by a wall clock. I can barely hear that.

Though my fridge is only a few years old, I was going to replace it due to noise... until I read all the complaints of noise and failures in customer feedback.

If I can cut that noise by half, I think I'll quit with all the HT OCD and watch TV for awhile. biggrin.gif
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If anyone is sub'd to the thread:

I've added a thread synopsis at the beginning of post 1 that covers most of what I've discovered in a concise statement. I'll periodically update the synopsis with any lessons learned that seem to me to be of importance.

fwiw,

mm
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I'll be out of the threads for awhile due to a family situation.
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I'd put two 120mm 5v CoolerGuys fans in my TV stand and they were too loud believe it or not. I bought an RoHS 3v 1.5a wall wart and added a molex connector. Molex extension between fans. That shut them up. Probably not an option with your HTPC. When did 120's get so noisy??

Though my fridge is only a few years old, I was going to replace it due to noise... until I read all the complaints of noise and failures in customer feedback.

My HTPC is pretty quiet. The buzzing is even less noticeable in comparison. I might try putting some acoustic foam pieces behind the HTPC to make it quieter. It sits farther from the wall than my PC, which can get loud at times, being upstairs which gets hotter and causes its fans to speed up - I'm not sure there is room for foam behind it since it is so close to the wall and the fan is at the top of the tower.

I remember the days when I ran (donated) PCs with 80 mm fans that I could hear all the way downstairs. Those POS eMachines PCs all had power supply failures and I finally splurged and built my own modern quad-core PC with an Antec 900 case with several 120 mm fans once I became less underemployed.

My refrigerator noise can be a problem since my living, dining, and kitchen is all one great room with only the kitchen counter/bar separating it from the living/dining room.
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MM-thanks for all of your info up to this point. I have had my 50ps64 for about a month and from day one it pops rather noisily. The pops seem to come during the warmup period and cool down (about an hour on each side). there are bezel pops which have been slightily minimized by loosening the bezel screws around the perimeter but there are also louder pops that occur near where the power cord gets plugged in that are definitely noticeable over normal tv watching and occur throughout the course of watching tv. Is this consistent with your experience? is it worth returning it for another model? i don't hear any buzz which if i end up with one that buzzes will drive me up the wall. I am wondering how common this popping is from various owners who may have reached out.
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post #56 of 105 Old 07-09-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Updates:

I had a few more long days of video before the trip to San Jose due to the family illnesses. In that time, my 65PS64 has been stone quiet. I don't advocate anything just yet. Just an update. I'll probably be outta the threads for awhile. I'm hoping maybe HDTimeShifter will continue to help with Q&A whilst I'm gone... TIA, HDTS!
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MM-thanks for all of your info up to this point. I have had my 50ps64 for about a month and from day one it pops rather noisily. The pops seem to come during the warmup period and cool down (about an hour on each side). there are bezel pops which have been slightily minimized by loosening the bezel screws around the perimeter but there are also louder pops that occur near where the power cord gets plugged in that are definitely noticeable over normal tv watching and occur throughout the course of watching tv. Is this consistent with your experience? is it worth returning it for another model? i don't hear any buzz which if i end up with one that buzzes will drive me up the wall. I am wondering how common this popping is from various owners who may have reached out.

Justin,

First off, welcome to AVS! We're glad to have ya'.

I'm sorry to say, that does not sound consistent. My panel's pops were so minor, most people would have said: "You're worried about that? I can barely hear THAT. Dude, that's nothin'." I heard my first "pop" at about 230 hours of total time on the panel. Zero at first. So that is different, too.

Because the popping you are experiencing is louder and because some seem to come from the power cord, I have to wonder if maybe you have a bad power board like El Matadurr had with his 60S60. OTOH, he said the popping he heard were frequent and "...as loud as firecrackers...".

If there are quiet pops or "ticks" during warm up and cool down, that would be consistent with what I was hearing. Also, I sometimes would get a light pop or 2 if running the swamp cooler for a long stint (aka, cooling the room a LOT while the TV was in operation). Again a sign of expansion and contraction.

Also, I'm not sure if the power board is in any proximity to the power cord. I wouldn't know. Just a vague suspicion.

If you are still in your return period, I suggest you evaluate whether that might be a good idea. If there is plenty of time left, you might let it ride awhile and see if it starts getting better like Randy Walters and many others have said they often times do.

I'll be punching out of the threads again for awhile, so I hope HDTS or other good guys like him can help with any questions you might have.

mm
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post #57 of 105 Old 07-10-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I'm headed out of town again so here's a quick update:

2 more long days of wondrously silent S64 time. As in: Silent.

I'll touch base when I can.

mm
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post #58 of 105 Old 07-11-2013, 06:20 AM
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Great synopsis in your first post. smile.gif

I wish an actual PDP engineer would get on here and speculate about the effect of the thin magnetic sheets, this model TV seems just thin enough that that the panel would get some magnetic pull from the sheet.
The phosphors are not metal though.

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post #59 of 105 Old 07-29-2013, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Well howdy again, y'all. Been out in San Jose for 18 days doing what we could to help out.

Regarding noise reduction, I've been using T3 for 3 days since returning and it is absolutely noiseless.

Before I'd left, I'd found that adding more and more magnet patches finally made average temps go up 1 or 2 degrees. It took quite a lot before that happened. I personally doubt that is of any concern, but you're left to your own opinion on that - proceed at your own risk.

There continue to be zero (I mean ZERO) signs that anything magnetic is causing any problems. T3's pic remains freaking amazing. The only diff is: No popping. I mean as in nada, zilch, nothing.

Since it appears I overkilled sound deadining, I decided to "swiss cheese" 5 of the larger magnet panels. While 16 magnet pads only showed 1 or 2 degrees of average temp increase, my thinking was to reduce any possible localized "hot spots" behind the larger patches.

Ok, let's try some more lame toaster pics. Here is one with a bunch of holes marked in an existing magnetic panel with only 1 cut so far. The idea is: This magnetic patch is covering a large surface area but none of the hole cutouts is likely to present any sheet metal that could act like a 'speaker'.... because: Each hole is isolated so resonance can never build up. Hint in advance: T3 is still TOTALLY silent even with holes cut.

I have to admit that I'm losing interest and doubt I'll post much more temp gun info. T3 remains cool, so this latest exercise is honestly just some busy work while watching some awesome T3 vid.



Here is a pic after some (drinking) exacto knife work:



Rinse and repeat on 4 other magnet pads.

Anyway, one could probably as easily get the temp drop I just hooked by using the much thinner Staples printable magnet paper. I'm thinking in terms of total insulation value, of course. I have some of that thinner Staples magnet paper on hand... but frankly, I didn't feel like with bleeping with it. So I cut out many circles in the 4 larger panels of magnet sign panel I already had. It was a fun? project while watching Amazon vids and 1 Exacto knife blade handled it all.

Anyhow, love it or hate it, the above is what I found. And furthermore, I'm back from San Jose for the moment.

Later, y'all,

Micke
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post #60 of 105 Old 07-30-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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THREAD SUMMARY AS I SEE IT:

To sum up what I learned in experiments and from others:

If your panel pops, it appears many get quieter over a month or two. IMHO, that is the best "fix". Just leave it alone and if it's not bad enough to return or swap, there is a good chance the popping will get quieter and less frequent on it's own. Thanks to Randy Walters and others for that info.

If you decide you just have to tinker with it, TechniWizard's fix looks good to me as is without any of the other stuff I tried. Just please keep in mind that some of the screws may be ultra tight, so there are some risks (previously stated; proceed at your own risk). Maybe don't loosen all the screws at once so the back panel doesn't slip down, then the o-ring thing I did probably won't be necessary. If I had it to do again, I'd loosen all screws except 1 on each vertical side run. Warm up the TV, tighten all the loosened screws to medium tight but definitely NOT killer tight like some were. Then loosen the last 2 screws and retighten to get them medium tight with a warm/expanded TV.

If you decide your back panel is binding and maybe some of the noise is caused at the top center where mine was trying to bow up, a couple of thin rubber shims could be slipped in between the back panel and the bezel there without taking anything apart at all. Those shims could be just tight enough so they don't fall out when the TV is cold. Just a tad tighter than a slip fit should be fine. They will be tighter when hot. Could that added tension cause the glass to crack? I hope not and it hasn't so far... I'll definitely post here if it does.

If you decide your TV's plastic pedestal cover is causing all kinds of haunted house noises like mine was, that's an easy fix removing only 4 small screws (NOT the big pedestal mounting screws!) and adding some thin felt at contact points, then put it back on with screws lightly tightened.

I went OCD about the very minor popping of my S64 and became admittedly over-sensitized to it. If you are in that boat, you might try magnet pads as easily removable sound deadeners. That is not well enough proven for me to recommend it. I'll report back if the panel ever shows any symptoms of overheating or magnetic interference. If you tend to run your room hot in the summer (like over 80*f), I haven't tested at those temps. If you run magnet pads - regardless of your room temps, please do pick up a cheap IR temp gun like I did, establish baseline temps front and back before magnets and then test after. Then decide if you think there is too much risk in it or not. Regarding magnetic interference or damage, I've got nothin' for ya' on that except: So far, so good. Fingers crossed, though at this point I'm personally not very concerned about it.

A NOTE ABOUT BUZZING:

Others noted that loose screws can cause buzz - especially near the buttons on a 50" S64. I noted when loosening the 2 or 3 screws at the top of the left side run (left as viewed from theater seating), this would cause buzzing for the first time on my 65PS64. I noted that snug or medium tight stopped the buzz. That's zero buzz even from behind the panel.

It seemed to me that some twisting of the back panel depending upon screw tightness might be behind what temporarily caused buzzing on my S64.

If a panel is already buzzing with tight screws, could "tuning" some of the screws to lightly snug or even loose reduce the buzzing? Might some of the grossly overtightened screws by Panny be adding to twisting if that is indeed contributing to buzzing? I don't know. I'm just saying that it seems possible to me. Is it advisable to loosen screws in attempts to reduce buzzing? I don't know that, either. As for me, if my panel begins buzzing at some point, I'll probably give "screw tuning" wink.gif a shot.

Micke
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