2013 Panasonic S60 & S64 DIY Noise Reduction Experiments - illustrated - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 101 Old 06-28-2013, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: THREAD SYNOPSIS AS OF 07-03-2013

Thanks goin' out to Cravit8 for suggesting a synopsis for reader convenience. Good idea, IMHO.


As an experimental thread, this got lengthy. I'll keep updates right here up front so that if readers lack the time or interest in what I've learned, you can get the progress reports right here.

1.) I believe for most minor popping, it may be best to simply wait and see because many have said that after popping starts, it begins improving in about a month. A "do nothing" fix is obviously safest.

2.) Rubber washers under screw heads isn't worth doing.

3.) Auto magnet sign sheet or material is currently being used and has really attenuated the auditory impact of the popping. It's now more like a small tick.

Post 24 has some IR temp gun data I'm working on to discern if the insulating properties of the magnet sheets are increasing temps. Looks unlikely right now.

I suggest you not do this easy fix until I test it for a few months. That way if the any magnetic gauss bleeding past the steel sheet metal back panel happens to cause damage, you'll learn about it from my testing versus risking damage to your panel. No sense damaging 2.

I'll update this synopsis if I think I've learned anything else that is important as that info is developed.

End synopsis.

Later edit: I've placed a thread summary at post 60 with what I see as easiest/safest fixes. mm






Original text:

This is going to get lengthy and I didn't want to clutter the S60 thread or the S64 Owner's Poll thread with this, hence a new thread.

My first focus will be "POPPING" when the cause is expansion & contraction, not electrical such as power board or power supply.

I can't hear buzzing at present though it has become apparent that I may not be able to hear this very well due to hearing loss in that frequency range. I can hear popping just fine. wink.gif

Problem Statement & How Bad Is it?:

It appears this is not of significant concern to most S60/64 (hereafter, "S60 variants") owners, so I don't want to give the appearance that the model line should be condemned because of this. To the contrary, I'm thrilled with the overall performance of my Panasonic TC-65PS64 so far. That model is basically the "club model" sold by Sam's Club and CostCo so far. The only difference I'm aware of from the S60 line is a mild AR "anti-reflective" screen filter. Otherwise, they seem to look and act the same even having the same firmware last I heard.

From reading threads linked by Randy Walters, it became apparent to me that expansion/contraction popping is nothing new and has occurred in many TV makes and models going back quite a long ways. And that appears to include LCD panels, as well. So again, a fairly common problem and not something isolated to or "wrong with" the new S60 variants.

At approximately 230 hours of usage, I heard the first pop from my S64. It's really more of a mild "click" seemingly originating from the perimeter of the TV. I believe it to be somewhat magnified and sustained for a longer duration than necessary because of the thin steel sheet metal back panel resonating for maybe 1/2 second after the 'click'.

Origin of the idea for this thread:

I decided to start experimenting with some easy DIY things because I had found some ideas in AVS. Some recent, some very old - unknown if age reduces likely relevance for 2013 models:

In the AVS Panny S60 thread but probably not originating there, some people suggested loosening the back panel to bezel screws, then lightly re-snugging them. I found screws from 3 turns out (loose) to insanely over-tightened. Doing this procedure increased my panel's pop frequency from 2 during warmup and cool down to 3 each. But they were softer clicks or pops, IMHO. At 400 hours a couple weeks after first occurrence, the problem was reducing on its own.

In an older thread, Techniwizard suggested doing the above, but while the screws were loose, powering on the TV and fully warming it up. Then with the panel warm, tighten the screws somewhat although leaving them less than full tight. This was explained to make things so the screws were primarily seated with everything expanded from warmup heat - and not to make them so tight that there wasn't some give.

Disclaimer:

Some owners of S60 variants have said that the screws were so tight, they aborted the attempted procedure and simply swapped out the panel. IMHO, this is smart versus maybe stripping screw heads or cracking the panel with opposing force. In fact, I found some screws so tight, I couldn't believe it for the tiny size of the screws. They appear to be probably a metric screw near in size to #4 machine screws.

If you try any of this, it will have to be at your own risk. So please be careful and consider your abilities when you come across alarmingly tight screws. This leads to background, fyi:

My background:

I don't have a TV tech background, so please keep that in mind.

I'm early retired; in my career, I was heavily trained & experienced in auto body, auto mechanics and later, auto forensics, etc. The auto body training & experience included some work in attenuation of body related vehicle NVH - sometimes focused on sheet metal panel resonance. Auto troubleshooting was part of my earlier and later experience. Puzzle solving has been a lifelong interest.

As my hobby, I was a "bracket racer". That is, an amateur/hobby drag racer. In that hobby, it was quickly obvious that many times, expenditures of hundreds or thousands of dollars and a LOT of time ended up making a car slower or less consistent. Humorous sayings were common in that hobby acknowledging this foible. Things like: "A REAL racer is willing to undo hundreds of dollars of work and time invested when something doesn't help." People in that hobby tend to go around fixing or modifying anything they can get their hands on. It is a compulsion. And sometimes it all has to be undone because it made things worse.

Such may be the case here. AT least at times. Anyway, that and maybe being a bit bored are the main reasons I've decided to tinker with some ideas. The problem would easily be ignored by most people. I'm a head trauma survivor and such people can be bothered by the slightest recurring noises. The TV isn't bothering me yet, but it could at any time in the future merely depending upon my attitude.

So I decided to say: "S64, keep it down, will ya'? I'm tryin' to watch TV over here." biggrin.gif

First Thoughts:

Some believe panel popping originates in the bezel. IMHO, it does in fact appear to originate from something in the perimeter of the TV. Localizing the problem was half the fight in auto's, so I consider I'm ahead of the problem so far.

In the older popping threads, "felt kit" or "pad kit" were mentioned as fixes used by Panny auth'd TV techs and those were reportedly applied to an aluminum surface somewhere in the sandwiched stack of parts.

I won't be removing the back panel in my attenuation attempts - at least at first. Reason: I want to be able to quickly "undo" anything I try in case:

1.) It doesn't work
2.) I decide to use my return privilege
3.) I call in a warranty repair

I'm calling these "the 3 contingencies" for future reference.

On the last 2 items, I want the panel quickly returnable to OEM condition so I won't get hassled for "modifying" the panel.

I initially ordered in some varying thickness of rubber based magnet paper to use as an easily removable sound deadener pads on the larger areas of the sheet metal back panel. This would simulate what is used inside auto body sheet metal on a widespread basis but be removable in case of the 3 contingencies aforementioned.

First Experiment - rubber washers under screws:

My way of troubleshooting first goes towards effect instead of cause. Recognizing that this is backward for the umpteenth time, I decided to put the above magnetic paper deadener idea on hold and first attack closer to where the sound originates.

Plan:

Install rubber washers on all the back panel to bezel screws except 2. Install lock washers on the other 2. Leave all just barely loose and warm up the panel fully in a warmer room and then tighten (just before I'd switch on the swamp cooler). I've tested a couple and total clamping force of the rubber washers will be significantly less than the 2 partially compressed lock washers. Either will keep the bezel well seated.

Theory:

First off, the thin steel sheet metal back panel looks to me like it could have some capacitance for static charge buildup - possibly damaging levels of same. I live in a very dry climate. Lotsa' damaging static here. But even if not, closely examining where Panny had the screws seated shows that they had clearly "bitten" through the thin paint on the back panel in many locations. Was Panny trying to make sure that damaging levels of static charge could not build up in the large surface area steel back panel? I can't say, but in case they want it well grounded to chassis, I decided on at least 2 split ring type stainless steel lock washers versus all rubber washers. It is my hope that these will keep the back panel grounded.

I'll try to locate those lock washers in areas where I've never heard popping.

I have a suspicion I may be removing the rubber washers and trying all lock washers, so I bought enough of both. Speaking of that, materials:

Materials:

I live out in the sticks, so my choices are: 1 hour rt up the mountain or 1 hour rt down the mountain. I went UP to LaVeta since they have a True Value Hardware there. That way, the item/sku numbers might be of use to others.

First picture: My camera is a toaster wink.gif, so pic quality will be limited. A mountain hardware store has limited stock. No such small rubber washers there. They did have grommets that might be split in 2.... Grommets on left, 1 Panny TV screw in middle, lock washers on right. Item numbers by the price, sku numbers in lower left of each bag:



Closeup of parts:



Splitting of grommet - easily done with a razor blade or in this case, a new utility knife blade. The pic didn't turn out usable. Dern toaster.

Trial installation:

Pic of stock screw as installed by Panny. It's a bit blurry; see also, toast.



Pic of stock screw installed on 1/2 of grommet (aka, a rubber washer) to point of contact plus 1 full turn:



Pic of stock screw installed on split stainless lock washer compressed about 1/2 way. I think that was about 3/4 turn past seated bezel:



Ok, so now to 'rinse and repeat' about 3 dozen times, leave them all loose, warm up panel, then tighten partially.

After that is complete and maybe a few days testing, I'll update then.


edit: Please also check out HDTimeShifter's post 39. Some good links regarding buzz there.
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post #2 of 101 Old 06-28-2013, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, just as I was about to start wholesale slaughter of the grommets, something occurred to me.

Looking at this picture of the TV with a screw removed, I see two things. First off, the wide part of the grommet made a rubber seating mark showing it is plenty wide enough to cover the hole. But do ya' see something else...?



There is plenty of room inside the hole in the sheet metal where I could leave a "goose neck" on the split grommet to ALSO extend down into the hole. This might do a couple things I can think of:

1.) Isolate the side of the screw from the sheet metal in case any popping event is from contact of the 2
2.) Make rubber contact with the inner panel maybe helping to dampen resonance there as well as damping noise in the outer panel..?

Here is a pic of a grommet split to serve in the above. It's on one of the TV's screws:



The "gooseneck" or smaller ID is a bit large for the hole in the sheetmetal, but I think it will extrude into the hole if properly snugged. Maybe "no rubber washers available, only grommets" was serendipitous?

From the misalignment in the hole, appears the back panel may have slid down a bit. I'll try for alignment when I have all the screws loose and tightening the first few. It would be easier to do that with the panel lying face down, but that gives me nightmares so I'm gonna do everything with it upright on the pedestal if possible.

Could the back panel sliding down be why the frequency of popping occurrence increased after loosening the screws? I dunno. We'll see, I guess.

BTW, the blurry toaster pic gives a false appearance of the threaded inner frame ('er whatever it is). In real life without the blur, the threaded piece looks very much like steel with a inexpensive surface plating. It does not immediately look like aluminum nor do I think shallow threaded aluminum could hold the insane torque some of these tiny screws were at.


edit: Ok, initial screw installation went like this. Installed 2 with lock washers on left vertical row about 18" apart. That's to make sure I keep the back panel grounded.

Installed one screw with rubber 'shoulder washer' in the middle of right and left side loose. Remove a couple other screws so I could see hole alignment. GENTLY slid back panel up for center alignment and tightened just those two screws to keep it up there with holes aligned.

The same tiny screws are used to hold the thick plastic pedestal cover to the back panel. Because of the thick plastic, those screws were not long enough for the rubber 'shoulder' washers, so I used lock washers there and left 'em loose for now.

Warming up the panel now. It'll be a few hours to warm, then I'll tighten most screws to compress the rubber shoulder washers into the holes and hold things in place. Maybe compress the rubber about 1/2. Then loosen the 2 screws that are holding the back panel up so they can find final center and re-tighten. Tighten lock washered screws to flat lock washer, then back up about 1/4 turn.

Can anyone tell me what these large screws do? They are merely finger tight, so I left 'em that way. There are 2 on each side:

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post #3 of 101 Old 06-28-2013, 07:16 PM
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Does the popping only occur right after turning it on and after turning it off? I had been under the impression that it was continuous. It would not bother me if it was just on power on and off. Continuous buzzing would be another matter.

By toaster, do you mean phone?
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post #4 of 101 Old 06-28-2013, 07:51 PM
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The two screws seem to be for the wall mounting brackets and some Pannys use plastic plug screws for these.

Hope I am right. You are doing a great service for members by doing this. Keep up the good work!

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post #5 of 101 Old 06-28-2013, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

Does the popping only occur right after turning it on and after turning it off? I had been under the impression that it was continuous. It would not bother me if it was just on power on and off. Continuous buzzing would be another matter.

By toaster, do you mean phone?

HDTimeShifter,

It is continuous for some. However, for many like me, it is more like this:

Mostly during warmup and cool down. My swamp cooler is manually controlled, so during the warm season I have pretty big swings in heat from maybe 84 down to 64. Sometimes during those big temp swings, there will be a minor pop or two. No biggie, really. I'm splitting hairs here.

By 'toaster', it is a pejorative for an old Sony camera that bites me on the arse at every opportunity. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by KONICA TECH View Post

The two screws seem to be for the wall mounting brackets and some Pannys use plastic plug screws for these.
Hope I am right. You are doing a great service for members by doing this. Keep up the good work!

KONICA TECH,

Thank you very much for supportive input!

Also, thank you very much for the info and professionalism. After hearing that those are plugs, I kinda' felt stupid - but you didn't take the opportunity to make me feel like an idiot. Much appreciated. Here's an odd thing: When I was testing the tightness of those plugs, I got a minor 'pop'. Probably incidental. I may play around with those a bit to see if they are a contributor to the noise though I seriously doubt it now that I know what they are.


To all: Still warming the panel up, but here's a funny thing: Not a single noise even during warmup for the past 2.5 hours. SILENT - with: All the screws loose except 1 rubber washered screw on the right and left vertical are pretty tight to keep the back panel from sliding back down slightly out of alignment on the screw holes again.

This is the first time the panel has been pop free during warmup since the problem began at 230 hours.

What this is 'shouting' to me: "LESS IS MORE". So, in a few more hours if the panel ever gets where I think it is warm enough, I'll probably tighten all the rubber washered and lock washered screws - but probably a LOT less than I was originally planning.

I'm half tempted to use just the screws on the pedestal cover plus 4 other rubber washered screws plus 2 lock washered screws for ground - take the rest out and save 'em in a ziploc bag for safe keeping. However, 2 reasons I won't do that yet:

1.) That probably wouldn't be safe with wall mounted TV's. I want the fix to be workable for wall mounts, too.
2.) Some say that loosening the screws too much above the control buttons can increase buzz. I don't hear any buzz, but others do with their TV's. So I guess those screws have to stay.

So I'll try the tightening method listed above and see if it remains silent. Just snug enough on the remainder that I think it would be plenty safe if wall mounted. My S64 will be staying on a pedestal, just sayin', whatever fix needs to be universal.

It is very early to make any pronouncements. Only a few hours testing on a TV intended to run thousands of hours.

Still, my impressions are at least initially pleasantly surprising.

And OMG, The Horror! Fingerprints all over S64's bezel. wink.gif Seriously, those clean up pretty easily.

mm
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post #6 of 101 Old 06-28-2013, 10:10 PM
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We start moving again on Monday and I am waiting to see if I can get a 65" in the living room, that said I have decided to get this at Costco and hope to be able to add more to this great thread....I will keep you posted.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KONICA TECH View Post

We start moving again on Monday and I am waiting to see if I can get a 65" in the living room, that said I have decided to get this at Costco and hope to be able to add more to this great thread....I will keep you posted.

Best of luck with your relocation. Your input is welcomed and appreciated here whenever you can find the time. I know how busy relo can be.


To all: After 4.5 hours warmup, no noises. I haven't run the cooler and the room is fairly warm, so I decided it was time to snug the screws - panel still running to keep it warm. Screws with rubber grommet halves tightened to where the rubber started to bulge but not until it wrinkles or unseats from under the screw head. The rubber washers provide very light compressive force.

Tightened the screws with lock washers to where the locks were fully compressed, then backed off just over 1/4 turn leaving lock washer spring tension as the main compressive force. These are probably holding a bit more compression than the rubber washers. That differential may be ok, I don't know yet.

As if I needed another excuse to vid out all night, I figured I'd leave the panel on for a few more hours to let the rubber washers seat or stick in position or whatever with the panel still warm & expanded.

Real testing begins tomorrow at first full cold-to-warm cycle after the work was fully completed. Fingers crossed, etc.

My initial impression is: The rubber grommets as washers may be too soft for a wall mounted TV but just might work for TV's on pedestals. Will update periodically.
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post #8 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

It is continuous for some. However, for many like me, it is more like this:

Mostly during warmup and cool down. My swamp cooler is manually controlled, so during the warm season I have pretty big swings in heat from maybe 84 down to 64. Sometimes during those big temp swings, there will be a minor pop or two.

Since I'm gone a large portion of the day and often in the evenings for errands, etc., I try to save on the A/C by not turning it off when I'm gone, and with lots of huge west facing windows, the other day my house got up to 91 degrees! I also only crank the A/C down to 80 degrees (measured on the top floor where the thermostat is), so maybe I don't have as big a temp swing, although when it wasn't so hot and I could open all my windows, my house would cool down to 70 overnight. I guess I'll have to wait until winter when I let my house cool to as low as 50 or 55 and can get a bigger temperature swing. No pops for me so far (knocks on wood)...
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The popping caused by expansion and contraction may turn into being a "seasonal occurance".

Tough to pinpoint for everyone's climate and altitude.

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post #10 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

.....My initial impression is: The rubber grommets as washers may be too soft for a wall mounted TV but just might work for TV's on pedestals. .

FYI the threaded wall-mounting inserts are pressed into two upright "chassis rails" underneath the rear cover, not in the actual cover, so the cover itself isn't a structural member when wall mounting. You could actually leave the rear cover off and still wall mount the TV since the inner uprights are what holds the weight of the TV.

Here's an older model that shows the inserts in the uprights:

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post #11 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 07:11 AM
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This is a great help Randy, thanks for your inputsmile.gif!

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post #12 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 10:43 AM
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Nice pic Randy. The S60/S64 is completely fan-less, correct? I don't hear any fans when I put my ear to the back panel.
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post #13 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

FYI the threaded wall-mounting inserts are pressed into two upright "chassis rails" underneath the rear cover, not in the actual cover, so the cover itself isn't a structural member when wall mounting. You could actually leave the rear cover off and still wall mount the TV since the inner uprights are what holds the weight of the TV.

Here's an older model that shows the inserts in the uprights:


Randy,

Thanks for the info. That's good to know and opens some possibilities. So then, it is possible I induced a pop when loosening the plastic plugs after all... whereas before, I thought it was just coincidental.

mm
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post #14 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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EARLY UPDATE - that can't be good... rolleyes.gif

Ok, so did anyone think this was going to be perfect on first iteration? I hoped but kinda' knew better.

Update - and since it is an early update, the news isn't great:

Last night after tightening the rubber washered and lock washered screws somewhat, the panel ran another 4 hours thereafter in total silence including when running my swamp cooler. Sounds great to me so far...

This a.m. with the panel at room temp or about 78, I kicked on the swamp cooler, then turned on some video with no sound. Warming it up with the swamp cooler on was the noisiest previously - maybe because the back panel is kept cool whereas the internals are going to warm up no matter what.

At 14 minutes in I was taking a pic behind the panel (below) and heard a pop. The pop was neither louder nor softer than before and caused the usual back panel resonance. It's been 1.5 hours now and not a single noise. So it has reduced warmup pops from 3 on average to 1 (albeit, this was only the first trial, so no "average" exists post mod yet). However, that's not what I was after.

So do I abandon the rubber washers now? No, the first thing that came to mind was the aforementioned message the panel fairly shouted at me: "LESS IS MORE". Or: "Looser is likely better". And after Randy's valued input, that means looser bezel screws are probably of no structural consequence whether pedestal or wall mounted.

So how about some "tuning" to find optimal -looseness- for the rubber & lock washered screwed? Sounds good so far:

The plan: I'm going to back off all the rubber washered screws to non-contact, then I'll lightly squeeze the bezel to back panel at each screw location so I know the bezel is lightly seated; then take the rubber washered screws to contact plus a miniscule 1/2 turn. I'm also backing off the 6 split lock washers that will remain (shown in pic below) by another 1/4 turn.

I believe I have some motorcycle M8 fasteners in my hobby shop, so I'll install those in place of the wall mount hole plugs with either rubber washers or some fat O-rings I have. Or first, I'll see if the plastic threaded plugs will hold light tension against rubber since they'll look better. Purpose of either: Those 4 metallic contact points may be related to popping, maybe not, but if not, these are out near the middle of the thin sheet metal and rubber there might help dampen resonance from any future pops or "micro-pops". cool.gif

Good news: Any amount of compression of the rubber "grommet washers" causes them to stick somewhat to both surfaces (sheet metal and under the screw head) in about 20 minutes. That is, once stuck, it takes about 1/4 to 1/2 turn before the screw will pop the rubber loose when turning with a screw driver. While a bit pesky for tightening or loosening, it suggests the screws will not be coming loose on their own. So the grommet-washers may serve well as "ultra low torque lock washers". Hereafter, ULTLW. wink.gif jk

In the picture below, you can easily see the 4 screws that hold the plastic pedestal cover on. These all have regular split lock washers because the plastic thickness with regular length screws meant there wasn't enough length there for rubber washers. The 2 red lines indicate 2 screws into the sheet metal back cover that also required lock washers versus rubber washers because the stack of materials there is thicker. I reason that those 2 are enough to dissipate any static charge in the back panel, so I will remove the 2 locks on the left vertical edge and install rubber there.

Picture:

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post #15 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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2nd washer refit - maybe some relevant observations:

First, you'll recall I had cleaved one flat end off each grommet and used the remaining two thirds thickness last night.

Today, trying for ultra low torque, I found that thickness to be too much. It left screws hanging by a thread. That won't do. So I removed each 2/3 grommet and instead used the part I cleaved off last night. That is essentially nothing more than a rubber washer. I believe a common part for this would be M2x9.2mm. Thickness in the 2mm range would appear to be good.

During installation, I found that squeezing the bezel and back panel for seated revealed some things others have mentioned. If attempting to fully seat the bezel, it gets very noisy. Especially in the corners, but in a few other places. I found it to be usually well seated on its own but figured even if it is not, why pull stress into a noisy part?

So what I did was: Installed all washers now; no longer any attempt at a "gooseneck" to get down to the threaded panel. I got about 2 or 3 turns before contact. I did NOT squeeze the bezel and back panel. Turned screws in until rubber contact. Contact was easily noticeable if turning the screwdriver by the shank with fingertips; as soon as it felt "gummy", the rubber is in contact. I opted for even less than previously stated. After "gummy" contact was confirmed, I added a scant one quarter turn.

I left one screw on right and left tight to hold back panel alignment until the end, then refitted those 2 remaining screws similar to above. Interestingly to me, the ultra low torqued screws with rubber washers are holding the holes in alignment - so far. I don't expect that to last. In fact, I expect some noise as gravity settles the panel downward. So the next test segment is going to require more days and more patience. I do believe the possible "fix" is closer to Hoyle now.

I removed one of those panel mount plugs and guess what? I got another pop while doing so right from that spot. Aha! Or at least, partially, aha. I found that the plugs are more of a barbed push plug than a threaded plug and won't be well suited to holding any level of consistent torque against rubber, so I'm out to my shop now to find some M8 bolts, rubber washers or fat O-rings. Who knows? Maybe I can find some buttonhead screws that won't look any worse than what was there...


By the way, all of the above may make those not terribly mechanically inclined think this would be a several hour fix. If it pans out, it will not be that. It will be a 10 minute fix. However, it'll probably take some more hours before I wrinkle out something that might work. Probably not there yet, but it is nearly time for more days of testing...
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post #16 of 101 Old 06-29-2013, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I wasn't able to find any buttonhead M8's in La Garagienda, but I did find these. The depth would be under spec for a wall mount, but there are plenty of threads of engagement to slightly compress the O-rings:



If I decide they help, I may stealth them black with Krylon later. Or not, it's the back of the TV for gosh sake.

I'm gonna try contact plus 1/8 turn due to more thread pitch than on the tiny screws. In other words, no wrench necessary. Finger tightening only.


edit: As you may have guessed, installation of these bolts/washers/O-rings was a snap. 30 seconds and most of that was spent trying to keep finger torque very light. I noted this area to be VERY noisy. If it is not causing some of the pops, then I think loose metal contact vibrating together was amplifying it, at minimum.




mm
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MM just a tip but the sequence of the screws as you tighten /loosen them will also affect the snapping, popping noise that occurs during expansion and contraction....

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Man I love this thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KONICA TECH View Post

MM just a tip but the sequence of the screws as you tighten /loosen them will also affect the snapping, popping noise that occurs during expansion and contraction....

KT,

I've been using some criss-cross like I would on a typical intake manifold or head, but just by intuition. Do you know of a good proven pattern? Ears wide open...

Input appreciated as always,

mm

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Originally Posted by Cravit8 View Post

Man I love this thread.

Not sure if that's sarcasm or not... hoping the thread is of use to you. wink.gif
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Ok, a few more heat cycles today - and some good news; at least initially. Things are starting to work out.

At contact plus 1/4 turn, I heard 1 (one) pop. It was in a Hz range where my hearing is still freakishly good. It was impossibly quiet. So most people probably would never have heard it. Especially if they had their sound on which I didn't.

Still, since looser was better, I backed off the preload on all the rubber washered screws to where they are now at "contact" only. That is, when turning the shank of the phillips screwdriver with light fingertip pressure, I took them to where it just became spongy. That is, just at rubber contact. I also loosened all lock washered screws another quarter turn.

On experienced mechanic's instinct, I took the wall mount bolts down tighter. Probably rubber O-ring contact plus a half a turn or maybe a bit more. All done without an Allen wrench; just fingertip force, but still, tighter than it was. I reasoned that the heat expansion area was comparatively small between the wall mount bolts and that sound attenuation from the rubber O-rings was very necessary in this central area of the potentially noisy thin steel sheet metal back panel. Also, I'd heard more than one pop when simply loosening the OEM wall mount plugs. Not saying they are the primary source, just one possible source.

I've been running the panel for about 3 hours tonight and haven't heard a GD thing. Might be onto something, but it will require days of testing (and settling in) before I'm willing to commit to this as a maybe fix. Still, I'm encouraged. Appears when the panel was shouting at me: "LESS IS MORE", it is best that I listened to what good ole' T3 was saying. (T3 is my wondrous S64 panel's nickname).

Enjoyin' my Canadian Mist tonight, so this will probably be my last entry today. More in following days, no doubt. biggrin.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Not sure if that's sarcasm or not... hoping the thread is of use to you. wink.gif

Not sarcasm, just ghost following a thread that takes tinkering to a new level, whereas my tinkering is normally paired with my youthful inexperience.
Keep it up! My S60 is not popping badly and I don't live in the mountains, but I might learn something anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cravit8 View Post

Not sarcasm, just ghost following a thread that takes tinkering to a new level, whereas my tinkering is normally paired with my youthful inexperience.
Keep it up! My S60 is not popping badly and I don't live in the mountains, but I might learn something anyway.

Roger that. Thank you for your supportive input. smile.gif


Brief update: So much for intuition. Making the wall mount bolts/washers/O-rings fairly hand tight spiked the number of occurrences like mad. Like every 5 frickin' minutes. mad.gif Removed that hardware entirely and that stopped the every 5 minutes nonsense. Now I might be able to get back to some useful testing in next heat cycles.

Having said that, the wall mount bolts/washers/O-rings did attenuate the back panel resonance with all those pops reducing apparent noise level if not actual noise level - but at the expense of making them happen all the time.

I could speculate about whether the spike in occurrences was due to local friction between the back panel and inner structural struts... or do the struts themselves start moving around making noise... but I've no way to know.

If things don't settle in like I want, next iteration will probably be with only 2 screws holding back panel and bezel on - 1 in the middle of each side.
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From a background including quite a bit of troubleshooting, I know full well I'm cycling through changes too quickly. Each should have probably a week of testing. Why I'm forgoing that:

1.) I'm impatient with what should be an easy fix.

2.) On day one, having all the screws loose but 2 was nearly silent. So if any attempted "fix" iteration is noisier than that, I figure 'forget that' and move on.

So clearly, I probably need to test a setup with 2 screws. Also, I've noted several times that doing ANYTHING at all with the screws holding the plastic pedestal cover on the back makes all kinds of pops and creaks and racket.

Since I've decided the pops are probably coming from several locations and maybe more than one type of source, I decided to temporarily remove that plastic pedestal cover. I have some wires anchored to it, so I'll just leave it hang there until I decide whether to use it or not. I could easily place felt inside the plastic cover and loosely hang it on there with screws, but that's for later if removal seems to help:



I decided I would like some rubber against the inner threaded portion. I got out the O-ring selections (SAE and Metric) and found that I would have to use a metric O-ring to fit in the small hole in the very thin sheet metal back panel. Pardon the pink tint in the background; it's the toaster's fault. wink.gif

Small metric O-ring on left, next O-ring is SAE which is WAY too fat, next is the rubber washer I've already been using, TV screw is on right:



Here is the part description to keep things clear. If for some reason these O-rings appear useful in the final fix and you go out to buy them, the pic makes them look bloated out of proportion. They are truly tiny, so if a person goes to buy them, don't be fooled by that fact. Very, very little parts here - they look big only because I got pretty close with the toastamatic.



Here is what the O-ring looks like pressed into the hole in the sheet metal back panel and up against the inner threaded part. The screw is a little difficult to start due to some gummy feeling resistance against the ID of the O-ring, but not too bad. Blurry pic, sorry. Bad toaster!



The previous rubber washer feels like it tightens down to compress into the O-ring. Or at least, that is what I'm hoping for.

Theory: The 2 remaining screws will make a possible pop noise generator, so I'd like those 2 areas dampened with rubber on both the inner and outer metal (back panel and threaded portion).

I tightened 2 screws with rubber washer and O-ring - 1 on each side at midway up. I lifted the right side so the hole is in alignment first, but I think this is a mistake as it felt like it was stressing the bezel. I'll undo that shortly when I loosen and retighten each screw after warmup a la Techniwizard's previous idea.

(edit: It occurs to me that if the back panel drifts down with gravity when I loosen the 2 screws with everything warm, it should be of no consequence. Why: Those 2 O-rings in the 2 screw holes actually being used should prevent the sheet metal back panel from ever touching the sides of the screws.)

As the TV has been warming up with this, there were 3 almost inaudible "ticks". I won't call them pops because the back panel hardly resonated at all.

Next updates after warmup and re-seating the 2 screws.

About grounding the back panel to prevent possible static charge buildup: I left 1 screw with stainless steel lock washer installed just to the left of where the plastic pedestal cover was. (edit: I'm placing an O-ring in that ground screw hole in the back panel now. I don't think that will affect grounding potential) That ground screw is only at point of contact done with fingertips on the skinny shank of the #1 phillips.

BTW: I found that these screws have a cross point that is very annoyingly right between #1 and #2 phillips. I decided on #1. DIY-ers are advised to maybe pick whichever you think fits more securely from your own tool kit - especially if trying to break loose some originally very tight screws. Firm care is needed or bad things can happen. Only you can decided if you feel safe doing this when you come up against one or more stupid tight screws.

I have a BBQ to attend down on the mesa, so I'll warm up the TV, reset the 2 screws, then bug out of here. Updates will be next week sometime. If they are delayed a bit, then something is likely seeming to be working and I'm testing it further.

If I come up with something that represents the significant improvement I want, I'll then start experimenting with different variations with the wall mount bolts so that maybe the fix might work for wall mounted TV's.
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post #24 of 101 Old 06-30-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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At some point when I think I've done the best I can in reducing the noise near the source, I'm going to try applying thick rubberized magnet paper to the back panel to dampen resonance if or when any tiny clicks occur. This is to maybe reduce the audibility but also to short the duration of any ticks or pops.

It is my opinion that the noises on my panel have been super minor. That is, in reality, they really are only a tiny "tick" - however, I believe that tick sets up resonance in the back panel that amplifies the noise and significantly lengthens the duration of each tick. The result is: Our perception is that it is a POP, not a tiny tick.

Why the magnet paper? In widespread use in autos, thick slimy tar paper is adhered to the backs of larger/flatter body panels prone to resonance and noise amplification. That would work here, but then I would be hassled if trying to return the panel or if calling in for a repair visit. So I need something quickly and easily removable and tar paper is NOT that. It's an ugly mess to remove.

So rubber magnet paper came to mind. I'll first try regular old Staples magnet printer paper for making magnetic doo-dads to hang on the 'fridge, etc.

But before I can do that, I need to collect data for how warm the TV runs without any magnet paper. Only in this way can I assess if the magnet paper makes the TV run warmer or not and whether that added temp is enough to nix the idea or not.

So this post will be for collecting temp data. I'll be doing that with a laser aimed Raytek IR temp gun. I'll place a target dot on the back panel of the TV for consistency in sampling. I'll place that dot just below an upper air vent exit. Reasoning: That's where it should be warmest on the back of a convection cooled device. I tried sampling from the glass screen, but typical of IR temp guns, glass causes consistency problems and the plasma itself gives a localized high reading. I'm still going to sample at dead center in the screen, but lesser weight should probably be given that since it's initially seeming so variable.

I'll keep the temp data before and after magnet paper in this post beginning with now. The posts don't seem to hold tabs or spaces, so I'll array each measurement like this:

Begins below:

edit: (Note: I have a ceiling fan running on low 24/7/365, so the below measurements are with that fan running continuously. The fan is not directly over the panel. It's 3 feet away from the left side (viewed from viewing position. I believe this will affect how warm the panel runs. IOW, the below are probably all cooler than they would be without a fan.)

Baseline temps with no magnets on back panel:

Measurement #....: 1
Magnet paper - Y/N.: N
Screen temp..........: 95.1f
Back panel temp.....: 89.5f
Room Temp............: 80.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 1.3 hour

Measurement #....: 2
Magnet paper - Y/N.: N
Screen temp..........: 87.5f
Back panel temp.....: 80.0f
Room Temp............: 73.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 3.0 hours

Measurement #....: 3
Magnet paper - Y/N.: N
Screen temp..........: 82.0f
Back panel temp.....: 75.5f
Room Temp............: 71.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: ON
Approx Time TV on..: 4.5 hours

Measurement #....: 4
Magnet paper - Y/N.: N
Screen temp..........: 91.5f
Back panel temp.....: 84.5f
Room Temp............: 75.0f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 6.5 hours

Measurement #....: 5
Magnet paper - Y/N.: N
Screen temp..........: 95.5f
Back panel temp.....: 87.5f
Room Temp............: 79.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 8.5 hours

=====================================================

Temps with 10 magnet sheet "pads" on the back panel:

Measurement #....: 6
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - auto sign magnet material
Screen temp..........: 95.5f
Back panel temp.....: 87.5f
Room Temp............: 79.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: .7 hours - not totally cooled off before this

(The above is an early check since magnets were just placed. Appears identical to previous pre-magnet data at same room temp. So far..)

Measurement #....: 7
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - auto sign magnet material
Screen temp..........: 93.5f
Back panel temp.....: 87.5f
Room Temp............: 79.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 1.1 hours

Above lower screen temp is on darker scenes in Avatar. Note that back panel temp remains the same as before magnets at same room temp.

Measurement #....: 8
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - auto sign magnet material
Screen temp..........: 95.5f
Back panel temp.....: 88.0f
Room Temp............: 80.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 1.4 hours

It's getting too warm in here for me. Running swamp cooler now. Panel temp after magnets remains nominal with room temp of 80.5.

Measurement #....: 9
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - auto sign magnet material
Screen temp..........: 87.0f
Back panel temp.....: 75.5f
Room Temp............: 70.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: ON
Approx Time TV on..: 3.0 hours

Swamp cooler running makes a big drop in all temps, but that was already well known.

Measurement #....: 10
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - auto sign magnet material
Screen temp..........: 93.5f
Back panel temp.....: 88.5f
Room Temp............: 79.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 1.0 hours

Back panel temp is 1 degree higher than other measurements at same room temp. I'm not gonna sweat ;)1 degree. Especially since screen temp is same as before.

Also, the back panel and bezel are held closer together now than in previous measurements since I have all the screws in place and barely loose. Whereas before with only 2 or 4 screws loosely holding everything together, there were some sizable gaps.

Begin testing with 16 PAINTED magnet sheet "pads" on back panel:

This is wretched excess and is not necessary for noise. It's to push a bit and see if temps stay in control.

Measurement #....: 11
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - auto sign magnet material - 1st measurement with all 16 magnets in place. 1st after magnets were painted, too.
Screen temp..........: 94.0f
Back panel temp.....: 87.5f
Room Temp............: 78.0f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 5.0 hours

Screen temp may be up a bit in above measurement with all 16 magnet pads in place, but it is very difficult to tell. Screen temps vary wildly depending upon video content. Back panel temp probably IS up as it measured the same as measurements 7 and 10 where the room temps were 1.5* higher. I'll therefore want some more measurements with room temp at or near 80f.

Measurement #....: 12
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - 16 magnets - painted
Screen temp..........: 96.0f
Back panel temp.....: 89.0f
Room Temp............: 79.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 6.0 hours

Compared to similar room temps, back panel is up 1/2 degree; screen is up .5 to 2.5 degrees depending upon which previous measurement you use. Measurement 6 had similar screen temp; back panel temp a couple lower. But then, the panel had been on less than an hour in measurement 6. I think things are reasonably nominal. If I have any doubts, I can remove the magnets I know to be pure excess. Leaving all 16 on for now.

Measurement #....: 13
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - 16 magnets - painted
Screen temp..........: 95.0f
Back panel temp.....: 88.0f
Room Temp............: 79.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 6.5 hours

Interesting. Even back panel temp can be video content driven. Same room temp or a couple tenths higher, yet lower screen and back panel temp than in measurement 12. Note that quantifiables are nearly identical in every way to measurement 5 (which was before magnets) - which as it happens was during roughly the same segment of Avatar. Similar amount of time the panel was on for each, too. Temps are looking nominal. Certainly not spiked.

Measurement #....: 14
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - 16 magnets - painted
Screen temp..........: 96.5f
Back panel temp.....: 89.5f
Room Temp............: 80.0f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 7.0 hours

Not seeing anything with 80* room temp and similar on time. Post 1 has similar back panel temp. Given those facts, I'm not concerned. Too hot in here for me, so I'm kicking on the cooler now. Might track some temps with cooler on.

Measurement #....: 15
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - 16 magnets - painted
Screen temp..........: 88.0f
Back panel temp.....: 81.0f
Room Temp............: 71.5f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: ON
Approx Time TV on..: 8.0hours

Targeting room temp of 71.5 above for comparison with 'pre-magnet' measurement 3 above... Appears it may take longer to cool down during cooler cycle. Does that mean the temps will escalate more during next cooler OFF cycle? Who knows.

Measurement #....: 16
Magnet paper - Y/N.: Y - 16 magnets - painted
Screen temp..........: 96.5f
Back panel temp.....: 89.5f
Room Temp............: 80.0f
Cooler - ON or OFF..: OFF
Approx Time TV on..: 10.0hours

Well, while with cooler on, the temp didn't drop as far as usual, the above recorded warm cycle with cooler off looks about like measurement 14. So the temps aren't running away as I'd wondered..

Jeez, it feels hot in here. Turning on the cooler again now.



I may or may not record more temp measurements. IMHO, I have enough info now to not be concerned about the magnets adding to running temp. Appears they do not. PQ remains uniform and smooth. No visible effects from magnets yet. Confirmed while running slides, too. Though there was some slight IR from Amazon Vids menu from me falling asleep the night before.

As mentioned earlier in this post, screen temp measurements are pretty flaky. Simple color changes on the screen can make temps instantaneously fluctuate wildly - high or low. I suppose that makes sense due to the PLASMA pixels, eh?


My panel's "age" in the above testing was roughly 430 to 450 total hours. Some believe plasma panels run hot when new, so maybe magnet sheets should not be attempted until the panel is broken in. I'm not sure what number that might be.

Also, the above isn't exactly a LOT of data. So if T3 survives this testing for a few months, making the magnet sheets look possibly viable, IMHO nobody should try the magnets without first buying a decent IR temp gun and developing your own baseline data before magnets and data after magnets. This is to help emphasize personal responsibility with whatever you try but is also for your peace of mind. And for the love of mike, please do NOT ever cover any portion of any air vents!
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post #25 of 101 Old 07-01-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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More about RISKS and/or? OPPORTUNITIES:

One of the guys in the S60 thread noted that when he had screws loose above the button controls on his 50" panel, this made buzz worse. Tightening the screws again took the buzz back to where it was before, fortunately.

I've never heard buzz with my TV and thought I was deaf to it - until today. With only 2 back panel screws in place plus a ground screw, rubber washered screws snug, not tight, I was behind the TV while it was running. When I would lightly compress the bezel to back panel above the control buttons on my 65PS64, I could immediately hear that high pitched screeching buzz. Not loud, but it may have been audible over quieter audio. Let go and it totally stops.

Now I'm a bit jumpy about messing with a TV that was so freakin' quiet to begin with. Important point: I personally recommend against doing anything to your TV unless it is a real pest. Minor popping and minor buzz should almost certainly be LEFT ALONE - because: There appears to be too much opportunity for making it (possibly permanently) WORSE.

What my TV is doing suggests that if it ever starts buzzing continuously, I can probably "tune" some of that out with the back panel screws by varying tightness/looseness and/or mixing up some different locations. For example, nothing says that the either side screw has to be exactly at the mid point. That is working with zero buzz for now, but again, another AVS member said having the upper screws loose added to his TV's buzz. But again, please give plenty of thought before trying any of this 'cause ya' could potentially make popping or buzz PERMANENTLY WORSE.

Update:

Warm up with no sound on this a.m. yielded 3 ticks. Not pops and almost certainly would be missed with any sound on at all. But dang it, I'm trying for better than that. rolleyes.gifmad.gif

I'm headed toward the opinion that the skeleton inside the TV (the structural part Randy showed in pics above that is for wall mounting strength) makes some of the ticks or pops. Not much I can do about that.

However, I believe that 2 of the 3 ticks came from the right vertical edge. So onto another iteration aimed squarely at that location:

Plan:

1.) Place the ground screw with lock washer just below the rubber washered screw on the right side. Make both right side screws (1 rubber washered, 1 lock washered) pretty snug. Intention: Prevent slippage at the (noisy) right side screws during expansion and contraction.
2a.) Add a temporary extra screw to the left side so the bezel doesn't fall off when I:
2b.) Remove the left side screw for some mods. Make the quiet left side the intended "slipping point" for expansion and contraction. Make those parts and that area so slippery that no energy potential can build up during expansion and contraction. My hope: This may eliminate SOME ticks or make them so quiet as to be utterly insignificant.

The risk: It could turn 3 ticks into 50 if ya' know what I mean. Well, at this point, in for a penny, in for a pound.

Sub plan for that:

Take the rubber washer and O-ring and coat them on both sides with something permanently very slippery.

Maybe DuPont dry teflon spray lube? It's used by some motorcyclists as chain lube. Sprays on wet, dries quickly to an opaque white super slippery surface. While I'm at it, I'll spray some on a Q-Tip outdoors, then use that to lube the back panel and threaded portion where the screw/washer/O-ring seat. Let it dry plenty before assembly. The lube won't stay where I put it if assembled while it is still wet.

OR maybe this? I have some dry powder tungsten disulfide (WS2) that is ultra slippery and would probably drop the "stiction" of the rubber parts to near zero. I might try that instead if I can find it but after my kitchen flood, nothing is where it belongs so finding that seems unlikely.

With either of these lubes, especially with the electrically conductive WS2, just the tiniest grey sheen of a film is all that is necessary on the black rubber parts. Glopping on a bunch serves no purpose - excess will just fall off or rub off - and could cause problems.

WS2 is best "burnished" or "impinged" into rubber parts. I don't have a media blasting cabinet any more, so impingement is out. Burnishing can be done between fingertips or between 2 sheets of paper. This works the micro particles into some of the microscopic pores in the rubber parts. Surface excess does nothing but make a mess; it is the part that is burnished in that goes the distance and stays ultra slippery - and potentially for a very long time.

OR: I have some Sanderson aircraft grade moly disulfide (MoS2) that is in a spray can and is applied like paint. Not an actual paint, but in some kind of binder that keeps it in place fairly well. Not my first choice, but I'm wondering if that might be better than the teflon if I can't find my WS2... I'll cogitate on that, flip a coin and do something to try to make a silent slip surface for the left side screw.


So why keep the rubber parts since they are inherently or at least initially sticky? I still want the sound and/or resonance dampening of the slightly compressed rubber there.

I guess you probably infer from the above that the FIRST place I'll apply magnet paper when things progress to that phase will be on the outer radius of the back panel near the slip joint.

Ok, off to 'La Garagienda' wink.gif to mod some rubber parts. I'll see if the toaster can get some 'less-than-myopic' pics of that mess.

mm

edit: Ok, back from some annoyance not finding what I really wanted. This'll do. This is just a garden variety motorcycle chain lube that dries, doesn't stay sticky. This one has teflon and moly not that it really matters. I reasoned: It's intended to stay on O-rings on motorcycle chains...



Parts to be treated. Seems pretty insignificant:



Best to spray materials on the rag versus on the parts 'cause the spray pressure will blow them away. Scrubbed small parts with brake cleaner first, dried, then wetted another spot on the rag with chain lube and scrubbed the 3 parts again:



Q-Tip wetted with chain lube; this is lightly coating the back panel and threaded portion screw seating areas:



Let parts dry for long enough to post this, then assemble with roughly rubber contact only. Not starting with a lot of tightness on first shot.

updates later, of course. biggrin.gif

mm
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post #26 of 101 Old 07-01-2013, 03:54 PM
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I've never heard buzz with my TV and thought I was deaf to it - until today. With only 2 back panel screws in place plus a ground screw, rubber washered screws snug, not tight, I was behind the TV while it was running. When I would lightly compress the bezel to back panel above the control buttons on my 65PS64, I could immediately hear that high pitched screeching buzz. Not loud, but it may have been audible over quieter audio. Let go and it totally stops.

I believe that 2 of the 3 ticks came from the right vertical edge.

I thought the buzz was more of a mid-range frequency. I'll have to re-listen to the couple of videos posted of the buzzing.

Is that the right edge facing the TV or facing the back panel?
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post #27 of 101 Old 07-01-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought the buzz was more of a mid-range frequency. I'll have to re-listen to the couple of videos posted of the buzzing.

Is that the right edge facing the TV or facing the back panel?

HDTimeShifter,

Yeah, it's probably not that high frequency. When I first got into this, I was expecting something deep/basso like 60hz hum; suffice to say it is a lot higher than that. Maybe I would describe it somewhat like: "...a cricket with a really fast stutter..." biggrin.gif

Seriously, the buzz when I induce it is similar to the sound of the high frequency arc starter transformer in a GTAW (aka, Tig) welder.

That is the right side of the panel when sitting watching TV. The side that has buttons on it on a 65". It is my understanding the buttons are on the other side on the 50"?

Thank you for your continued interest in the thread.

mm
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The buzz I hear is from the upper left and right rear speaker holes. The only time I heard buzz from the front was when I ran the whiter slides and it seemed to come out of the screen, but I'll have to run those again and listen to the rear to see if I can locate a specific position. I would describe the buzzing as "moving electons" for lack of a better term - a hissing noise, but not very high frequency - more of a buzz than hiss. Maybe the loud buzz people are complaining about is different or an acoustic shift of the buzz sound being forced through the bezel and panel gap causing vibrations? Or more realistically, wires or electronic components in that area being compressed causing some electronic whine?
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The buzz I hear is from the upper left and right rear speaker holes. The only time I heard buzz from the front was when I ran the whiter slides and it seemed to come out of the screen, but I'll have to run those again and listen to the rear to see if I can locate a specific position. I would describe the buzzing as "moving electons" for lack of a better term - a hissing noise, but not very high frequency - more of a buzz than hiss. Maybe the loud buzz people are complaining about is different or an acoustic shift of the buzz sound being forced through the bezel and panel gap causing vibrations? Or more realistically, wires or electronic components in that area being compressed causing some electronic whine?

Interesting. That's where I hear it from, too. But only when I induce it. With screws loose, applying light squeezing force between the back panel and upper bezel can immediately start an audible buzz. Squeeze a little bit more or less and it is GONE.

It is my impression that something in there doesn't like being twisted or something like that.

Ok, the automotive magnet sign material got here before the Staples magnet printer 'paper'. So I did the below. I'll be monitoring temps closely. I did not cover any air vents. I do not see any screen aberrations due to whatever magnetic gauss might be bleeding past the steel back panel. This magnet material isn't really as strong as I expected, so that is probably a good thing for magnetic interference. It sticks nicely although I did "shape" the side pieces for the radiused perimeter of the back panel.

If I decide I like this stuff & it doesn't cause any problems, I'll probably "stealth" it out with some Krylon satin black or something like that. I suppose I could have some kinda' mural air brushed on the larger pieces... cool.gif

Snapping the perimeter of the back panel with a fingernail prior to the magnets would make a loud cheap sounding "BOOOONNNNG". Now snapping it sounds kind of like it is hard plastic. A kind of dead sound.

I just got the first tick at 8 minutes on this heat cycle and it was truly insignificant. There is absolutely no way I could have heard this if any sound had been on. NObody would call this a "pop". My brother would say: "What tick? I didn't hear anything. I think you're imagining things."

This automotive sign grade magnet material is considerably thicker than Staple's magnet printer paper. I would say that what I've applied is maybe 5 pounds.

A full sheet would fit on the one side whereas I had to cut down the other side to avoid air vents:





After about an hour of ON time, I'll go back and update the previous post with the temp data.

Amazon vids has plenty of problems in content, so to evaluate if there are any PQ aberrations from the magnets, I'm running Avatar BD right now with sound off listening for "pops". So far, just the one 'tick" and super well deadened by the magnets. Hoping it doesn't get too hot...

So far, PQ looks totally uniform and smooth just as always.

mm

edit: While being bored waiting for anything untoward to happen due to the magnets, I weighed a full single sheet of the magnet sign material on a digital kitchen scale. It's a lot lighter than I thought: 13.75 ounces per sheet. So the roughly 2.5 sheets I have on my TV is about 34 ounces or 2.15 pounds. I'm glad for that; IMHO, 2 or 3 pounds isn't going to overtax the pedestal.
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In reading all the experiments so far, I have a hunch the other tries will be for nought and the magnetic paper is going to fix most of it, or be all you can really do.

There is just so much inside the panel that could be skewed, torqued, or perfect that adjusting screws from the outside fixes one side while twisting the other side. I think the back panel would need to fully come off.

Point of reference, we had our beautiful LG gas range replaced with the same model because of a loud, like hammer hitting sheet metal loud, BANG! 35 minutes after the oven was off. The replacement unit did the same jut not as loud and we still can't get used to it. I could see the sheet metal vent face under the oven had scratches from shifting up and down in the cooling cycle. There is nothing I can do for the banging, becaus eits too much for for a dad of 3 to care. Obviously the TV popping buzzing is of greater frequency, but fixing it may require disassembly.
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