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post #301 of 373 Old 11-07-2013, 10:07 PM
 
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^Yup, same here. Being an AVS addict, I did get a notice earlier in the day that the forum was receiving an upgrade. Most likely related.
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post #302 of 373 Old 11-07-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I changed my preferences now because I would end up getting way too many emails. It gives me an idea, though, that there should be a link to a page which would have all posts you were mentioned or quoted in. I may add something like that as a modification for ip.board. On busy sites you may get mentioned a bunch of times and not ever notice.
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post #303 of 373 Old 11-07-2013, 11:24 PM
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I wonder if AVS updated forum software because now I get notified every time someone quotes me.

yes they did

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

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post #304 of 373 Old 11-08-2013, 01:54 AM
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I don't have it until tomorrow and I already shipped out the 93 so I would just have to be guessing on memory. The main thing I cared about was that the 103s are supposed to be much faster and the 93 annoyed me like CRAZY with how sluggish a lot of thigns were on it. So hopefully at least that part satisfies me.

As for the other, well I don't want to go all off topic, but studies show that chemo and antidepressants, for example, both work about he same as a placebo. Also, I've had this going on for a couple years and it all started when I bought new tvs. So far anyone I talk to has never heard of this type thing and they probably even think I'm imagining that simply watching an lcd for a few minutes can sometimes FIX the head issue like magic.

Andddddddd again with the BS that I ignore advice. lol Face it, nobody's advice has worked, as I have tried every bit of it other than the reset and voltage changes. people kept going on and on about how I ignored their advice to get a technician out, for example, and sure enough I was right about that.

Mate it is written in black and white in the service manuals and the one i sent you.

Adjustments won't be accurately performed for service without a reset first...

No one and i mean no one knows better than the Pioneer engineers who contributed to the service manuals.
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post #305 of 373 Old 11-08-2013, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But it doesn't guarantee it will not cause a problem. Just that as a last resort, to try it, I would assume.

I am sure I will end up trying it. I'm just not sure when or if I will on both or not.
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post #306 of 373 Old 11-10-2013, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am so frustrated that not many issues get solved. My head still bothers me, still the black level issues, the oppo cant even come CLOSE to playing a SINGLE file via DLNA for me, etc.... It's one thing to have a lot of problems to solve, but when they never get solved, it's frustrating.
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post #307 of 373 Old 11-10-2013, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Should I get a warranty for this second one? I still can't decide and am probably almost out of time to be able to. it would be $205 just for one year or $315 for two years and I hate tow aste yet more money, so I dunno.
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post #308 of 373 Old 11-10-2013, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know what this tells us, but I just played RB on the elite, through the oppo 103d, upscaled to 1080p, in game mode, with d-nice settings other than that game setting is turned off (off = less lag), less than 3 feet from the screen for multiple hours in a row and my head feels BETTER than when I started, I think.
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post #309 of 373 Old 11-11-2013, 01:43 PM
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Don't know if it's my imagination but i play with game mode on, film mode smooth, and drive mode 3 - it seems perfect to me and super super slick
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post #310 of 373 Old 11-11-2013, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought all this time that the game preference needed to be ON to get rid of lag because d-nice had it set to on, but then read in the menu and I guess he was just wanting it to look its best. Something looks different about game mode, and like I said, unless I am also imagining, it helped my head for some reason. Also RB = rock band. I forgot to even make it clear what I was talking about. lol
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post #311 of 373 Old 11-12-2013, 05:17 AM
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Lol i was trying desperately for about two minutes to figure what RB was...

With drive mode 3 instead of the usual DM1, and game mode pref on (game mode pref on) is what i should have said earlier too. Everything else off except perhaps film mode smooth.

Anyway in COD it is super fast to me with these settings. Don't know for sure if activating film mode smooth helps even more but i think it does. Certainly haven't seen anything quicker on Kuro's (imo) than with these settings
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post #312 of 373 Old 11-12-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, when I did play rock band, I kept trying forever to get calibration right and finally when it got close to right was freakin 130ms!!!!! I don't know if that setting in the game is TRUE exact input lag or if it's a combination of things, but if the tv is having 130 ms lag in game mode, that is sad. I am running the game through the oppo 103d and up0scaled to 1080p, but surely that wouldn't knock it all the way up to 130 ms. lol Even before I got the 103d, lag on some of those games seemed mighty high and I know this set its known for pretty bad lag, but not THAT bad.
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post #313 of 373 Old 11-12-2013, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Well, when I did play rock band, I kept trying forever to get calibration right and finally when it got close to right was freakin 130ms!!!!! I don't know if that setting in the game is TRUE exact input lag or if it's a combination of things, but if the tv is having 130 ms lag in game mode, that is sad. I am running the game through the oppo 103d and up0scaled to 1080p, but surely that wouldn't knock it all the way up to 130 ms. lol Even before I got the 103d, lag on some of those games seemed mighty high and I know this set its known for pretty bad lag, but not THAT bad.
Laugh if you want to. Your DVD player is definitely contributing to the lag. eek.gif
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post #314 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 12:05 AM
 
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Uh oh, you're going to instigate another Oppo rant now.wink.gif
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post #315 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Well, when I did play rock band, I kept trying forever to get calibration right and finally when it got close to right was freakin 130ms!!!!! I don't know if that setting in the game is TRUE exact input lag or if it's a combination of things, but if the tv is having 130 ms lag in game mode, that is sad. I am running the game through the oppo 103d and up0scaled to 1080p, but surely that wouldn't knock it all the way up to 130 ms. lol Even before I got the 103d, lag on some of those games seemed mighty high and I know this set its known for pretty bad lag, but not THAT bad.

Well that puts any hope if i ever got a 103D of putting a console through the OPPO processing.

That is (big) time lag - - 130MS that is similar to the first gen OLED's is it not.

:lesson:

wink.gif

But in all honesty these sets vary very much in lag. Some have measured Kuro's less than 10ms, some much lower like 5ms, there are a few on here (AVS) who did the measurements with proper equipment - i will see if i can find the link...

It depends very much on sources and optimised settings...
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post #316 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think rock band settings of lag necessarily translate to exactly how much lag there is, but yes it definitely was the oppo causing it. As I posted in another forum, I went back and forth between it using the oppo and not using the oppo and did MANY attempts at getting the lag settigns right and it seemed to me like the oppo added like 100ms to it! Even when using source direct. Sucks, because stu had said gaming is one area darbee comes in handy. I would maybe connect it through the oppo for games I think lag won't matter in.

And, by the way, I am so sick of my head issues. It is driving me nuts still having them. And it's not a headache. I just don't describe it well. I guess it could still be CALLED headache, but it doesn't usually hurt, it's just horribly uncomfortable pressure and sometimes a warm bath or sneezing will relieve a ton of it. Or even shaving will.

edit: go look in the blu ray forum at how ridiculous this is getting. Someone insulted me, I called him rude, so I was banned from the thread for calling him rude and the rude guy wasn't. then they keep closing my threads telling me to post them in the thread I was banned from. The twilight zone is more normal than this.

As far as specific lag measurements, I think the "real" number people claim for the elites is something like 40-50ms. When I am not running things through the oppo, it seems like setting things around 40 or 50 has it feeling about right. I was manually figuring out rock band lag, but I also tried auto calibration and it claimed the lag was around 60ms on both audio and video (they have two different measurements for rock band 3).
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post #317 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 07:28 AM
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Ok dude try not worry about it. People are people and the way i see it is everyone is entitled to an opinion, some can handle opinions that some can't such is life. Best thing to do is just stick by what you believe to be the truth within reason. This will always be the case on the tintaweb where hyperbole rules. But best just to ignore it life is to short as ive found to my cost on many an occasion this last two years come February since i started posting here and uk.

Anyway regarding latency/lag etc etc. A Kuro on a normal AV setting is averaging 50ms. A Kuro on game mode pref on (now this is where it gets complicated)... I am having a job finding results for anything much except the 5020 and the 6020fd's. Elite tv's monitors i haven't seen yet, and no confirmed (again not yet) FD monitors and KRP's.

But some have tested the 5020 and 6020 and the 8G's and these music console games and others at 12ms, one or two swear by 0ms (i don't know if this is true but some folk are saying this is what the RB or whatever it's called is coming up on screen with). One is convinced ninja gaiden on the 5020 was easily as good as the top end crt.

There are literally dozens and dozens of different numbers for these Kuro's and these are just the ones on AVS. I have yet to Google other ones but on others ive seen higher and lower than 12ms.

All I know is on my KRP's headshots were always superb on it on any FPS, and now with Drive mode 3 instead of the usual 1 with game mode pref on it's even quicker (IMO).

Everything else off including DRE, and making sure the console is outputting 1080P and RGB 0-255. And making sure dot by dot is on/activated. And orbiter is (off), power save modes are off.

Basically everything in the game mode setting's page off except for game mode pref on. And a cable directly from the console to the tv definitely.

I know i said movie mode smooth but i just can't be sure it helps (all) the time so i'm leaving it off for now until i try more tests with games I'm familiar with.

Receivers, external processing always add an (average minimum) of 30ms afaict. Peoples systems vary, as does if anyone likes it or not the actual processing in the display at times due to manufacturing tolerances.

I wonder if the Darbee Darblet on it's own adds anything to latency i would be interested to find something somewhere. But when i had mine before i sold it playing COD WAW i can't say i noticed if it did.

But i will say that display myths shattered would probably say it's in the chain rather than what we are seeing regarding blur etc etc
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post #318 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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on the music games, I think the numbers aren't really what the input lag would measure the "official" way, though, because there are more issues at play. I have had tvs seem fine with a setting of 0ms too. Sometimes on the elite I could probably have it doing ok at 0, but it wouldn't emasure that with some official test.

lso, what's strange to me is with all of this testing I was doing, it seemed that having game mode on didn't even make much, if any, difference. And the description makes it seem having game pref on actually adds lag, but I tried with it on and off and still it wasn't much difference for me on the music games. So I just played on ISF night for a while. In fact on this long solo that I love playing I actually beat my record of accuracy on the solo. I usually hit 91-92% of the notes in that solo and in ISF night I actually hit 94% one time while doing these tests.
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post #319 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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oh also I didn't try darbee when playing any game yet because I only played music games so far and it would be pointless adding darbee to those, really.
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post #320 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
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oh also I didn't try darbee when playing any game yet because I only played music games so far and it would be pointless adding darbee to those, really.

Probably yeah - better off with the Darbee when there is time to focus on the images rather than keeping timing when playing music games.

When i was reading about latency with RB etc earlier and the best plasmas for it etc etc some were mentioning something called auto calibration - what does that entail then ?....
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post #321 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's if you use an instrument officially made for the rock band games which has the feature in it. basically you hold the guitar up to the tv and ti does something to measure it. I guess due to sending some sort of video and audio signals and capturing it with something on the guitar. I don't know how accurate it is supposed to be though. Any time I manually tried to get the lag settings right it was a lot less than what the auto one said. I also was using a different guitar for manual, though, aso I don't know if the instrument types mater or not, which is another reason I say the numbers may not be true input lag of the tv, because the numbers may be influenced by instrument limitations.
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post #322 of 373 Old 11-13-2013, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is driving me NUTS. Any time my head feels a little better if I watch tv, it's back to bothering me. A lot of times I barely glance at the tv while just listening because I know it's going to bother my head. It's all on the surface, so I figure it's somehow doing something to muscles or maybe nerves.
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post #323 of 373 Old 11-14-2013, 07:27 AM
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Last time I checked AVS was not a medical forum smile.gif
Advice has been given on your issue by more than a few of us who did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

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post #324 of 373 Old 11-14-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

It's if you use an instrument officially made for the rock band games which has the feature in it. basically you hold the guitar up to the tv and ti does something to measure it. I guess due to sending some sort of video and audio signals and capturing it with something on the guitar. I don't know how accurate it is supposed to be though. Any time I manually tried to get the lag settings right it was a lot less than what the auto one said. I also was using a different guitar for manual, though, aso I don't know if the instrument types mater or not, which is another reason I say the numbers may not be true input lag of the tv, because the numbers may be influenced by instrument limitations.

I should have been a tad clearer in my post earlier 12ms wasn't RB it was just a lag test with equipment afaik.

Doubt though it's a huge deal anything between 5 and 20ms. A fighter pilot would struggle to tell the differences
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post #325 of 373 Old 11-15-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Last time I checked AVS was not a medical forum smile.gif
Advice has been given on your issue by more than a few of us who did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
It's a 111 thread and is about the 111 causing issues.
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I should have been a tad clearer in my post earlier 12ms wasn't RB it was just a lag test with equipment afaik.

Doubt though it's a huge deal anything between 5 and 20ms. A fighter pilot would struggle to tell the differences
Well, seems like I saw in the lag threads on here that it's something close to 40ms. That's what I would guess, to begin with, because even recent plasmas with more recent tech usually end up around that also.

Still, nobody suggesting what I should do about my tvs. For instance, I don't know if I should put a 111 up for sale now or mess with voltages before selling it. And if I mess with the voltages on the more recent one, then it's no longer calibrated. The calibration seems off, anyway, but at least I can advertise it as calibrated without lying, as all info I have is it was calibrated.

When I watch a movie, I keep thinking to myself how great it WOULD look if the black level was right and the calibration touched up.
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post #326 of 373 Old 11-15-2013, 07:34 AM
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I am your ally, but the Pioneer Elite 111 is only causing one person headaches and other health issues. It is also not the only display that you've had trouble with in that regard. There is a thread for your display and you seem to have migrated away from your voltage issue or whatever was causing your grayish blacks. No comment on what happen to you on the official thread. Hope you are enjoying your Oppo 103D, can't justify the upgrade from my 103. Can't get behind what the Darbee does, but a lot of folks swear by them.
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post #327 of 373 Old 11-15-2013, 09:04 AM
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It's a 111 thread and is about the 111 causing issues.
Well, seems like I saw in the lag threads on here that it's something close to 40ms. That's what I would guess, to begin with, because even recent plasmas with more recent tech usually end up around that also.

Still, nobody suggesting what I should do about my tvs. For instance, I don't know if I should put a 111 up for sale now or mess with voltages before selling it. And if I mess with the voltages on the more recent one, then it's no longer calibrated. The calibration seems off, anyway, but at least I can advertise it as calibrated without lying, as all info I have is it was calibrated.

When I watch a movie, I keep thinking to myself how great it WOULD look if the black level was right and the calibration touched up.

HDTV test years ago on the review of lx5090 got around 25ms game mode.

This was before people got used to different settings on the tv's and the consoles hardware.

25ms is streets ahead of any modern plasma (we are talking three times that, minimum) of the last few years.

Like i said on other forums i have seen much lower from people who take very seriously lag with gaming but i could live with 25ms. But the thing is it only matters on certain games.

25ms is excellent by serious standards, in my opinion it goes way lower than this, but until i find a way of proving to myself otherwise. Which i can't because the KRP hasn't held me back in any way whatsoever gaming wise and i always go for the most difficult games and difficulty levels and then play all over again straight after once I've unlocked everything possible.

Anyway im rabbiting on but it's still voltages i guess, for instance changing drive mode or colours is changing voltages wink.gif

I don't know how to tell you but resetting (won't break you're tv that's scaremongering) not one person has ever broken their tv since all this started. The only people who had the red tint come back were the ones who reset and just left alone and tweaked no voltages afterwards, that speaks volumes.

The black levels are great on your panel, only the correctly functioning 101's and obviously the 500's have measured darker in the whole time of plasma TV/monitors with to this day, unmatched real world contrast ratio numbers. But yes it can go even darker (yours) but it's entirely up to you.

Unless you always watch in complete darkness i wouldn't worry you're tv (as a functioning "tv" along with the krpA's) is as good as it gets in plasma simple as that.

Tweaks don't work without resets. It's stated in the service manuals.

If there are people out there who know better that's great and good for them but i' m not talking about voltage rgb color tweaks for better blacks - just the ones on the voltage pages like YKNOFSAD etc etc.

What's the worst that can happen except getting near 0mll - you haven't said ?
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post #328 of 373 Old 11-15-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Mostly I am tired of spending money and like I said for the calibrated one I could then not sell it as calibrated again. I really want to keep that one anyway, though, but have to find someone who is ok with one hdmi not working. I only use 2 hdmis myself, since I switch with the oppo and before that I switched with the soundbar. But some people will insist one hdmi not working means the price should be low.
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post #329 of 373 Old 11-15-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
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Mostly I am tired of spending money and like I said for the calibrated one I could then not sell it as calibrated again. I really want to keep that one anyway, though, but have to find someone who is ok with one hdmi not working. I only use 2 hdmis myself, since I switch with the oppo and before that I switched with the soundbar. But some people will insist one hdmi not working means the price should be low.

True
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post #330 of 373 Old 11-17-2013, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Technology is just not in as good of a place as people act like. They add all this fancy stuff, but the simple things don't work. for example, cell phones where you can get a billion apps, but the actual PHONE, ie calling people, sucks. These tvs with rising blacks and the red tint issue on many of them. IU can't get my rock band games calibrated properly and kee[p missing easy notes. The oppo freezes and sometimes doesn't even have a picture when it's supposed to. The TiVo has had issues. Then to top all of that off tvs give me headaches and I keep getting banned from threads for daring to complain about something not working properly. I guess everyone has to be a clone and have the in crowd's personality.

I can't think of ANY product I have that doesn't have major issues. Oh I forgot to mention the wii u, also.... which has had problems from day 1 feezing up and was supposed to be fixed with a firmware update, and it wasn't fixed for me.

I wonder if I can find anyone on here who has my tv model AND ALSO plays rock band games where I can figure out what in the world calibration settings they use. On the original rock band I now have it set all the way up around 80ms, I believe, and I think it's still too low.
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