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post #181 of 373 Old 10-18-2013, 04:34 PM
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Yes, I am well aware you have to buy these used now. I'm just saying I would not be comfortable purchasing any TV used. If you buy a used AVR or Blu-ray player and it does not work, then you have a valid reason to open a dispute with Paypal. Not as easy with a TV because if it powers on and displays a picture the seller can claim the item performs as advertised. I'm sure you have already found this out with the first one. I'm curious to see what Paypal would say if you tell them this time you bought a TV that smells like urine.

What are you going to do now with two sets that you are unhappy with? Are you going to be willing to sell both for what you can get out of them and move on?


I hope not, as I find this thread very entertaining tongue.gif
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post #182 of 373 Old 10-18-2013, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not funny because this is truly literally depressing. I had FIVE elites I was considering buying and apparently picked the wrong one yet again. I kept almost buying a different one, for less money, but the guy took forever to close the deal so I bought this other one. I'm sure D0nicem wont do this, but if I had someone who would do it..... someone could check out the east TN 101 from ebay and see if it is working properly. And if it were D-nice I would then pay him to calibrate it and I'd sell both of my 111s. But that one has nearly 10,000 hours, so it would still be risky.

Again, my situation is far different than any of yours. ALL other tvs HURT my head and I mean hurt BIG time every single day. ALl plasmas, all leds, heck even CCFL LCDs sometimes were doing it. It's from reflections sometimes, sometimes it's flicker, sometimes I have bno clue what it is. The elites ALSO hurt my head EVERY single day. But it's low enough intensity where I can stand it. So my only choices are get a USED elite or get a pile of crap low end LCD which would hurt my head less, possibly, but have a picture worth crap. And nobody has been helpful as far as volunteering to help me. Maybe I should try to find a local calibrator who would do s QYUICK check for under $100. Then I'd know if it's me or the tvs. But the only ay it's me is if my vision got worse in the past year. otherwise, it's flat out the tv because the pannys were 100 times darker in my memory.
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post #183 of 373 Old 10-18-2013, 10:46 PM
 
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lol, man. Don't do it. You'd just be digging yourself in deeper. I don't understand the headache problem and what it is about Panasonic's driving method that could be so severely exacerbating it. It must be something in particular about your vision (I only suffered from myopia and maybe a mild astigmatism before I had LASIK performed). I was just blown away tonight by the ZT60 and the PIXAR animated flick, Cars. I hope you find video nirvana sooner rather than later.
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post #184 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Also, if I am not impressed with a good tv, why did I never complain about the panny st30, st50, Samsung d7000? Thought all three had great black elvels. So the only way you could consider these elvels normal is to assume my vision issues got worse in a 1 year period or that they are worse than those other tvs.

Don't know what to say except sorry it hasn't worked out for you - again.

You really need to hire a pro to come sort it out. Period.

The thing is. People who have normally functioning 9G's (normally) don't sell them on for obvious reasons.

If i had a lemon i would want to sell it on and get back something for it. But at least with my 500A it had stock black levels again - before i sold it on - which had the red tint before.

In a normal circumstances these are the best. Unless someone had to have new, bigger, 3D or some crap inbuilt we need to ask ourselves why anyone would want to get rid.

There are a (lot) of dodgy red tinted/raised mll KRP's, ELITE tv's and monitors out there for sale. These are the facts. However hard to swallow.

But there are a lot that aren't too, these are facts also.

Try before buy.

The guy i sold my self fixed 500A to (although a friend) checked it over very thoroughly first before handing over the envelope with $2K cash.
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post #185 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 02:14 AM
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Somelogin,

It is Easy to open a case with fleabay to get your money back.

You need to be adamant it is not as described - and if you say it smells like pish well eBay must refund you.

Get your money back from fleabay for the second one then hire D-Nice to fix up your first one would be my advice.

Good luck
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post #186 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Somelogin,

It is Easy to open a case with fleabay to get your money back.

You need to be adamant it is not as described - and if you say it smells like pish well eBay must refund you.

Get your money back from fleabay for the second one then hire D-Nice to fix up your first one would be my advice.

Good luck

While he certainly can open a dispute, I think this one is going to be a tough sell. The two main complaints as I understand it are the black levels are not to his liking, and it smells bad. While the black levels may not be up to standards, how are you going to prove that? I won't even go into the urine smell claim as that one is so strange as to defy an explanation.

This should be quite interesting.
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post #187 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't even know if I will open a case, because then if I am denied and try to resell it and someone I sell it to complains they will of course NOT deny theirs. I don't know what to do. I have been screwed over on three different tvs now and I got less than I thought when selling my hx929 so really was screwed voer four times.

Anyone have any ideas on what to do to maybe get a smell out? It's not the screen. It's just the plastic. Not even the front bezel, but the sides and back of the tv. Surely there is something I could do about that. If it were the screen that would be even worse because you can't just use substances on a screen.
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post #188 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As far as why someone would sell one, one guy bought something bigger and the other claimed he needed money fast. Many people do want more than 50 inches now, so it's always possible a 50 could be sold in working order. It's amazing though how both of these 111s seem to be nearly EXACTLT the same. very similar black levels. Only real difference is mine seems more of a flat picture which I am trying to figure out if that's because this second one was calibrated or if there is truly something better about the panel.
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post #189 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

I don't even know if I will open a case, because then if I am denied and try to resell it and someone I sell it to complains they will of course NOT deny theirs. I don't know what to do. I have been screwed over on three different tvs now and I got less than I thought when selling my hx929 so really was screwed voer four times.

Not met to be mean since we've had some good pm's the past few weeks. At some point you need to look in the mirror, only one person to blame since no one is forcing you to make these choices. You are the only one who can fight for what you think is right - warranty issue or the latest with the eBay seller. Why is your decision to sell your 929 at a given price about you getting a raw deal. If the price isn't good don't sell it or decide its as good as it is going to be. We all think our used cars are worth more than we can usually sell them for. During your Elite replacement hunt you yourself didn't like how the sellers answered your questions, but yet in your hast to replace your charged, no pun intended.
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post #190 of 373 Old 10-19-2013, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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People are supposed to sell working products. it's not someone else's fault for believing they're getting what it says. By your logic you could only blame yourself if best buy were to sell a broken tv and refuse to let it be returned.
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post #191 of 373 Old 10-20-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

As far as why someone would sell one, one guy bought something bigger and the other claimed he needed money fast. Many people do want more than 50 inches now, so it's always possible a 50 could be sold in working order. It's amazing though how both of these 111s seem to be nearly EXACTLT the same. very similar black levels. Only real difference is mine seems more of a flat picture which I am trying to figure out if that's because this second one was calibrated or if there is truly something better about the panel.

Tbh even a non calibrated one shouldn't have a flat looking image - Pioneer Kuro's (due mostly to the humongous ANSI) have the most 3D looking 2D image i have seen on any panel ever released that i can think of if that makes sense.

But you're 111 if functioning correctly and the video and brightness level are set correct should be the second darkest 50" plasma in the world today...

I wish we could see some sort of image of it/them (paused on a black screen for instance in a room void of light, with brightness and video level settings correctly set up/reduced (absolute MLL)
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post #192 of 373 Old 10-20-2013, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ive taken pics before, but I don't think it's really possible to take a pic where someone could judge by it since pics can be misleading and exaggerate things one way or another.

I find it very hard to believe that my vision issues could be making it seem to have a worse black level. That just doesn't make much sense. SO all I know to assume is that these both have the same issue and people should avoid November, 2008 ones as they probably had a whole batch with the same issue.

I don't know what to do now. There is really no option left. And even if the zt60 wouldn't hurt my ehad, which I know is a false hope, the SMALLEST one you can get is 60 inches, when even 50 is too big for where I have this. So there's NO other tv worthy of getting in the size range I want. I would have to wait for a 46 inch OLED and now I see the LG OLED ahd HORRIBLE game lag.
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post #193 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 06:44 AM
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Is it possible to get in touch with the previous owners and ask if they noticed any changes over the period of ownership...

But of course as i'm typing this i realised that it is unlikely they would own up to anything because of fear of returns possibly etc.

But you never know.

Also it is possible that even if it had some changes they may not have genuinely realised any changes. As not everyone is sensitive to it if very gradual.

That and a lot of people only watch in daylight and ambient light in the evening so no way would a rise in MLL be noticeable in these circumstances.

During the day i can have the brightness set way up - sometimes +6 or seven for shadow details sake depending on what video output level i am using and black screens and scenes remain black because of the filter. Lights off and comes way down of course and just looks as black to me as it was during the day - minus some very slight screen reflection that all plasmas display of course.
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post #194 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 08:25 AM
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Somelogin I did some googling trying to find some images to post for you regarding the 111 to do some comparison with...

There wasn't as many as i would of hoped of the 111 that were of any use, nearly all were with with a fair bit of ambient light, or dark scenes with too much on screen to make any real distinction or too blurry that can't see much of anything. Plenty from other models and sizes though which isn't much use, and (not one) of an all black screen in the dark unfortunately of the 111 that I could see.

But here is one anyway, one with the black movie bars with content on screen - i seem to remember you saying a long time ago (i think ?) that your bars looked grey even with something on

But this is (roughly) what it (should) appear as with movie bar content on these - is yours anything like that or much more grey ?

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post #195 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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it's really hard to tell from that. I'll just have to take some pics. But I figure flash would mess them up so will have to do them with no flash and then it will be hard tot ell much. I really don't think the problem is my vision though. Also, I already asked that original owner many times. Both owners (of these two tvs I have) insist it had an outstanding black level and they never saw anything not performing properly on it. And now I am worried when I resell one of them someone will say it's not working properly and me be out shipping for something I am not to blame for, as I have no way to get a return forced myself, probably.
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post #196 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 02:55 PM
 
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Of course you have to disable the flash, or else you'll get a reflection and a misrepresentation of what you're seeing. A tripod would be preferable, but the camera should definitely be stabilized (i.e. like on a table) before taking the photograph and should obviously be taken in complete darkness for the most accurate representation.
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post #197 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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post #198 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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completely dark room. l included the WB one just to show one of a bright scene, unrelated to this. the disc menu one is to show that TO ME the black letters look nowhere near inky.

As I said before, even with ambient lighting the bars don't look black. And this is ISF night with d-nice settings and don't ell me it's settigns, as I have explained MANY times, and am tired of repeating, that I turned conterast and brightness to MINIMUM levels with no impact on this so it's not settings. Also the other tv was calibrated just last year and it looks the same or worse than this with those calibrated settings.

And obviously it's NOT my vision, or why do I see the darkness surrounding it? If my vision were the problem I would see the darkness around the tv as brighter just like the picture. It's faulty, plain and simple.
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post #199 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 06:27 PM
 
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Finally, pix (only took 3 months)! smile.gif The photo of the WB logo looks rather good (nice job!).

My LCD monitor only reveals so much, but the horizontal bars don't seem that out of the ordinary...maybe a smidgen brighter than stock. I need to view them on my phone (OLED) or a plasma to more accurately see what you're seeing.
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post #200 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 08:14 PM
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Actually the blacks do look pretty bright, although they are also full of compression artifacts from the photos.
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post #201 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I am almost positive they're wayyyyy out of whack. I'm not only comparing with my memory of my hx929, which obviously shuts off on full black screens, but also like I said, other plasmas as well. But, also, as I said a while back, on first glance at a ZT60 in Best Buy it looked to have abd black level too, so I thought maybe they had bad settings, but who knows. It would just really surprise me if my vision could truly be making me see it wrong. I think it's more the pics aren't displaying it enough, but who knows. To me it shows up pretty well in the pics, though. And also for some reason sometimes it seems better or worse than other times when I am watching it. All I know is when I sell one or both I need to take a lot of pics with brightness in them like everyone else does...

ALso,m if you get a chance go to the ebay 101fd listing from TN and see what you think of his pics, because to ME it looks overly bright also and I am unsure if that means it's another dud or mine isn't a dud or what. I wish someone from this site lived in my area and they could look at it themselves.
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post #202 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 08:36 PM
 
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It looks like there's only one photo showing that 101FD in action, and it's broadcast material at that. It doesn't look good by many means, but that could have more to do with the camera and/or the source than the panel.

I agree that the compression artifacts causing pixelation in your photos are distracting in assessing the full-screen black level. That is probably a limitation of your camera's sensor, however.
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post #203 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Only way to get much better image than my camera is a DSLR. But see.... I told you all along it's hard to know from pcis and you and others kept going on and on about how I "wouldn't even show any" and then when I show some, sure enough you say exactly what I said, that a pic isn't enough to tell. Kinda like when these people kept asking me over and over to set up a demo f software I was selling and then when I finally did, sure enough none of them even demoed it. I'm always right when assessing whether or not to do things.
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post #204 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 09:30 PM
 
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Quitcher bitchin' (and gloating about being always right, funniest thing I've heard all day)! It's better than nothing. smile.gif Besides, I'm pretty sure I stated before that it seemed slightly brighter than it should be...
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post #205 of 373 Old 10-21-2013, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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At the recommendation of someone ehre I burned the AVS disc to sue instead of the wow one, but couldn't tell much because those two different tests involving brightness levels are showing different settings needed, the white setting is pretty difficult to nail down just absed on that, and although colors seemed way off, I recall d-nice saying somewhere that on the wow disc color pattern elites would look off when properly calibrated, so I assume same goes for the AVS disc as when I changed them to look right in the patterns, real content looked odd to me,

Anyway, I can't even decide if the picture on the calibrated one is much more impressive to me, which seems to back up my previous skeptical statements about calibrations. I'm not so sure it would be worth it to calibrate unless d0nice does it because he at least MAYBE could improve black levels. I really don't think a normal calibrator could do enough to impress me.
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post #206 of 373 Old 10-22-2013, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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What sucks is even if I ever find the perfect elite, it will still hurt my head. So best case scenario is I end up with my head hurting. And I really feel like 4K may be the solution to my head issues, but only edge lit LCDs are 4k compatible. Plus even those are expensive considering most people won't notice the differences like I would. I hope I don't die from tvs. that would be really sad that no tv can keep from hurting my head and for all I know these ehadaches could damage me.

Also I still don't see how people can claim this has a minimum black level of around 0.001 and then in the same breath say it's not supposed to look black. How in the world can a tv that isn't even supposed to look black in darkness measure below what a lot of equipment can measure? That makes no sense. For something to look gray, it CAN'T be 0.001 blacks.

edit: I rally feel like giving up on ever having a tv that works out. Like I said, these all bother my head, even unrelated to these black level issues. And now I am realizing just how dull plasma is even in ISF day mode in darkness. People exaggerate when they say it's bright enough and that people shouldn't watch torch mode LCDs. I spent my whole flat panel life watching LCDs in torch/vivd mode and had no issues and as soon as I started using recommended settings on tvs, these head issues started.

edit2: Looks like Panasonic lied, as usual. At CES people said the S60 would be available in 46 and 42 and I see on Amazon the smallest size is 50. Having such a big tv (50) for the small area I have the tv in could be aprt of my headache sisue so I decided maybe I should try a 42 or 46 current model and, as usual, the manufacturers FORCE people to either get 50+ or watch a piece of crap. And any time I rant about it here, morons go on and on about how wrong it is to expect them to sell something under 50 because "not as many buy those sizes". PLENTY still do and if we go by how many are buying them, then people need to demand OLED stop being manufactured.
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post #207 of 373 Old 10-22-2013, 06:17 AM
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post #208 of 373 Old 10-22-2013, 07:06 AM
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Speaking of a headache... I just read this entire thread. vinnie97, you have more patience than Job.
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post #209 of 373 Old 10-22-2013, 11:08 AM
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Somelogin I am viewing images on a first gen OLED phone. But it gives a fair enough idea of outright mll and although i have seen European equivalent of the 111 look very slightly darker in blackout, it's very slight and a proper calibration will get that darker without a shadow of a doubt.

But (there are so many variations of setting's) etc it's difficult to say for sure.

Plasma's won't ever go off black. The darkest and best set up ones have a difficult job still telling it's on in room with no light whatsoever - truth.

You have to take into account phosphor glow when the screen warms up also - like there is a tiny glow even when it's switched off to standby, or the wall or whatever in a room with no light whatsoever if it's been on a few hours for example. Every plasma since the first has done it.

But we don't sit watching black/blank screens - it's a very quick switch normally.

These Pioneer mll numbers are not made up - especially the pro's like D-Nice etc whose honesty i have always admired tbh.

When brightness/black and greyscale particularly the low end colours (it's mad) how black these can go smile.gif
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post #210 of 373 Old 10-22-2013, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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well ti gos back to either my vision or maybe the camera is somehow not making it look right because it's just not right to my eyes. If what I am seeing is right, then nobody pro-plasma can ever bring up flashlighting, haloing, etc... on LCDs and claim plasmas are much better in darkness, because this does not look any better to me at all and my mom was talking to me about tvs and she said every plasma she sees, including mine "are blurry" and she doesn't like them. yep, someone seeing these models and not liking them does not seem like a normal reaction if the tv is proper.

I'm tempted to buy an ST60 just to have in my home to know once and for all if it's my vision or if this tv is worse than an ST60 and tehn return it.

When I watched an ST50 last year it blew me away so much I about had an orgasm watching normal movies. So I am expecting too much to expect the elites to be equal to or above an ST50?
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