anyone still prefer their Kuro to the VT60? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm interested to know if anyone has had the same experience I did. After the consensus seemed to emerge that my beloved KRP-500M had finally been surpassed, I went and bought a 55VT60. Immediately, I began seeing issues.

First, of course, the fan noise was a little disconcerting. But I was prepared to get used to that. Next, I was struck by the amount of dithering noise, especially in dark areas of the frame. Mixed in with that was a much more pronounced appearance of compression artifacts. Now, I know that cable TV is compressed, and this is not an issue with Blu-Ray viewing. But most of my viewing is live or on-demand cable TV. Watching, for example, "Hannibal", which has a great deal of dark and moody lighting, I was seeing much more compression blocking and temporal artifacts, for whatever reason, than I had ever noticed on the Kuro. Then, I started noticing rainbow effect in the highlights. Lastly, in scenes with venetian blinds or similar light/dark bands, I noticed the old Panasonic line bleed problem which I thought they had largely eliminated by now.

None of these issues improved after I had the TV calibrated.

So I went and got an HDMI splitter and ran the two side by side. While I felt that the overall picture quality of the VT60 was often as good as the Kuro, I never once felt like it looked better. I know that in particular, the shadow detail is said to be superior on the VT60. I looked hard, and I didn't see that. I also found that skin tones tended to appear blotchier on the VT60. And the Kuro has none of the above-mentioned issues - or at least has them in such a small degree that they are not bothersome.

So I decided that, for me and my viewing experience, my 2009 KRP-500M is still the best TV out there. I hung it back up and passed the VT60 along to my dad, to replace his PRO-FHD1.

I'm wondering if anyone else out there feels the same way?
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post #2 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustmethat View Post

I'm interested to know if anyone has had the same experience I did. Hearing that my beloved KRP-500M had finally been surpassed, I ran out and bought a 55VT60. Immediately, I began seeing issues.

First, of course, the fan noise was a little disconcerting. But I was prepared to get used to that. Next, I was struck by the amount of dithering noise, especially in dark areas of the frame. Mixed in with that was a much more pronounced appearance of compression artifacts. Now, I know that cable TV is compressed, and this is not an issue with Blu-Ray viewing. But most of my viewing is live or on-demand cable TV. Watching, for example, "Hannibal", which has a great deal of dark and moody lighting, I was seeing much more compression tiling, noise, and MPEG artifacting, for whatever reason, than I had ever noticed on the Kuro. Then, I started noticing rainbow effect in the highlights. Lastly, in scenes with venetian blinds or similar light/dark bands, I noticed the old Panasonic line bleed problem which I thought they had largely eliminated by now.

None of these issues improved after I had the TV calibrated.

So I went and got an HDMI splitter and ran the two side by side. While I felt that the overall picture quality of the VT60 was often as good as the Kuro, I never once felt like it looked better. I know that in particular, the shadow detail is said to be superior on the VT60. I looked hard, and I didn't see that. I also found that skin tones tended to appear blotchier on the VT60. And the Kuro has none of the above-mentioned issues - or at least has them in such a small degree that they are not bothersome.

So I decided that, for me and my viewing experience, my 2009 KRP-500M is still the best TV out there. I hung it back up and passed the VT60 along to my dad, to replace his PRO-FHD1.

I'm wondering if anyone else out there feels the same way?

Who calibrated your tv ?

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post #3 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Not gonna call anyone out on the boards, and anyway I think it was a good calibration. The things that bother me about the VT60 have more to do with image processing intrinsic to the TV.
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post #4 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 08:53 AM
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Okay that's what I thought peace smile.gif

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post #5 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 10:25 AM
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Similar situation to yours except I had a 65ZT compared to a 151FD. I had them side by side also. My main problem was that I thought the151FD was a better all around set than the ZT mainly because of contrast ratio. The ZT can pretty much match the Kuro in black level, but cannot get as bright. Other than that I thought the pictures were similar once the ZT was broken in. Certain modes on the ZT will give skin tones that blotchy look, but the ISF modes with certain settings looked great.

Because the price delta between what I could sell the Kuro for and the sale price of the ZT was greater than the difference in performance, I decided to return the ZT. I don't miss the fan noise though. I do however miss the extra 5" and the smart features of the ZT, along with the filter, which was an improvement over the Kuro's. If I do find the ZT cheaper, ( under $3K) I may buy it again, since the ZT is pretty close, I just wish I could get a few more Ftl's out of it for daytime viewing.

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post #6 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 12:04 PM
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I must have my non-elite Kuro setup incorrectly because I find my VT a lot brighter. For my elite I am running D-nice setting via controlcal. Or maybe it is the filter on the VT is better at rejecting light?
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post #7 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 12:56 PM
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I believe using the DNice ISF day settings on the elite runs 45-50ftl.

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post #8 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 12:57 PM
 
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First off, the 500M is still the pinnacle of PQ, so whoever told you that it had been surpassed was telling lies. wink.gif
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post #9 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

I believe using the DNice ISF day settings on the elite runs 45-50ftl.

vs. 36ftl on my just calibrated VT. No one will/should argue about the quality of the 500m, but the extra screen size is nice that you can get with a VT/ZT. I can't imagine wanting a brighter picture then what my day mode outputs. Still not a very fair statement when someone isn't willing to discuss what appears to be a poor calibration, not an issue with the VT. If anything I found the dithering to be less on my VT vs. my Kuro both before and after calibration - when using a quality feed or blu-ray for comparisons. At least we know he loves his dad. smile.gif
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post #10 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Definitely not a poor calibration - without naming names, it was one of the shootout calibrators and he knows what he's doing. I think, frankly, between these two TVs, the difference is academic and it comes down to personal preference. I just found the Kuro more enjoyable to view, and was curious if any others feel the same.
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post #11 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 05:09 PM
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No modern consumer plasma can match the ABL algorithm/performance of the Pioneer 9G Kuro Monitors which are even better in this regard than the 9G Kuro TV's (which are most likely better than the modern models as well in this regard).

The modern models probably could have matched the 9G Kuro TV's but regulations have changed in the last several years. I'm not so sure they would ever have matched/surpassed the 9G Kuro Monitors...
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post #12 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

No modern consumer plasma can match the ABL algorithm/performance of the Pioneer 9G Kuro Monitors which are even better in this regard than the 9G Kuro TV's (which are most likely better than the modern models as well in this regard).

The modern models probably could have matched the 9G Kuro TV's but regulations have changed in the last several years. I'm not so sure they would ever have matched/surpassed the 9G Kuro Monitors...

I would tend to disagree not so much in principle but in real world viewing and the overall performance. I had the 9G 141 monitor (see my settings in the first post for the 141 thread), the biggest problem was it tended to drift toward blue therefore contaminating the rest of the colors. eek.gif

On a side note and a shameless plug for CC, your software was a must have for any of the Kuros. smile.gif

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post #13 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 05:58 PM
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I just bought an smasung 8500 to replace my 150fd
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post #14 of 34 Old 08-13-2013, 09:03 PM
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JC7727- not interested since context is with 9G Kuro and your set is 8G Kuro.


I have not compared side by side to VT60 but have been impressed with VT60/ZT60- but still prefer Kuro video processing (not just black levels) to current models. Bustmethat/OP if viewing room permits you should go for 60" if possible and size makes a big difference. I sold my 500M but stuck to Kuro line to opt for used 151FD.
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post #15 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 12:09 AM
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My 151 is isf calibrated at 45fl by D-nice.

The fact that the vt/zt can't exceed that comfortably is a no go for me.

The only set on the market I'd care for today is the 8500. If they made plasma is 75, I'd pick one up tomorrow.
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post #16 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post

My 151 is isf calibrated at 45fl by D-nice.

The fact that the vt/zt can't exceed that comfortably is a no go for me.

The only set on the market I'd care for today is the 8500. If they made plasma is 75, I'd pick one up tomorrow.


Yeah that's the problem........If the ZT could at least do that, I would have kept it and would be selling the 151.

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post #17 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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actually my 500M has been running without turbe's patch all this time - does it allow improved dim room PQ? My understanding was that it primarily allows a brighter daytime setting, but I hardly watch any TV in the daytime.
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post #18 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 04:03 PM
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you're fine for reference viewing in reference viewing enviroment
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

First off, the 500M is still the pinnacle of PQ, so whoever told you that it had been surpassed was telling lies. wink.gif

I wouldn't consider buying a 50" Plasma.

way to small.

so you need to use the 60" 141fd or 600M as a fair comparison. PS. 151 also...
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post #20 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by newb2012 View Post

JC7727- not interested since context is with 9G Kuro and your set is 8G Kuro.


I have not compared side by side to VT60 but have been impressed with VT60/ZT60- but still prefer Kuro video processing (not just black levels) to current models. Bustmethat/OP if viewing room permits you should go for 60" if possible and size makes a big difference. I sold my 500M but stuck to Kuro line to opt for used 151FD.

smart move because a 50 is way to small.
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post #21 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I find the whole size inflation phenomenon interesting. A few years ago, 50" was just fine for lots of people. For me it still is. But now everyone seems to think anything under a 60" or 65" television is inadequate. Are rooms getting bigger? I don't get it.

Anyway, don't really want to start a digression - the purpose of this thread was to find people with first-hand experience with both the VT60 and 9G Kuro and get user opinions.
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I wouldn't consider buying a 50" Plasma.

way to small.

so you need to use the 60" 141fd or 600M as a fair comparison. PS. 151 also...
YMMV. Irrespective of size, I was specifically referencing PQ. Those 60" panels are more equitable but I'm pretty sure they can go brighter than the VT60 (and with the specific service menu tweak, definitely darker).
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post #23 of 34 Old 08-14-2013, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustmethat View Post

I find the whole size inflation phenomenon interesting. A few years ago, 50" was just fine for lots of people. For me it still is. But now everyone seems to think anything under a 60" or 65" television is inadequate. Are rooms getting bigger? I don't get it.

Anyway, don't really want to start a digression - the purpose of this thread was to find people with first-hand experience with both the VT60 and 9G Kuro and get user opinions.

Like anything else, you grow into it. Pretty soon, 80 inches will be too small for some of us, even from ten feet away (actually, for some it already is).
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post #24 of 34 Old 08-15-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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incidentally, does anyone have contact info for d-nice? I've never had a TV calibrated by him, and this one might be due for a tune up since I'm re-committing to it for the next few years...probably until OLED is within reach!
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post #25 of 34 Old 08-15-2013, 12:20 PM
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post #26 of 34 Old 08-15-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

smart move because a 50 is way to small.

I disagree with your blanket characterization. I only changed TV since I moved to a bigger place -otherwise for my previous apartment and shape of living room 50" was the ideal size.

Anyway in the Kuro family smile.gif
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post #27 of 34 Old 08-16-2013, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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ddavis@av-fi.com

When you email him be patient, he will respond and I highly recommend his services.

thank you! much appreciated.
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post #28 of 34 Old 08-16-2013, 05:53 AM
 
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And this is why i returned my 65" VT 60 for a 65" F8500

Brightness and filter sucks on the VT
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post #29 of 34 Old 08-18-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by newb2012 View Post

I disagree with your blanket characterization. I only changed TV since I moved to a bigger place -otherwise for my previous apartment and shape of living room 50" was the ideal size.

Anyway in the Kuro family smile.gif

I like a direct viewing angle and that can't be achieved with two people watching such a small TV

going solo and a close viewing distance I would agree with you......

I have a 59" Samsung Plasma that only cost me $600 NIB a couple of years ago and couldn't see spending 2000 for a 50" TV.

an 80 Inch would be the minimum if you want the best though.

it's much better for sound quality to get at least 10 Feet away from the speakers also.... in most cases......
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post #30 of 34 Old 08-20-2013, 07:16 AM
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Picture Quality:
In the 2 weeks of owning the VT60, I have viewed a good degree of varying content to make an assessment of picture quality. I have watched three 3d movies - Avatar, Avengers and Toy Story ; viewed various sporting events including around ten (or so) baseball games on ESPN, WGN and more, watched the Stanley Cup Game 7 recorded from DVR, watched Game 7 of the NBA finals recorded on the DVR, soccer, etc.myzV I have watched Bluray movies of different titles, older 480p titles like Rocky, Groundhog Day and more. I have watched Discovery, Science channel for many hours, shows like Deadliest Catch, Storage Wars, Pawn Stars, Through the Wormhole, cartoons (with my boys), cooking and home improvement shows, and more. We are a TV watching type of family, and we view many types of shows to put the TV through its paces We have nearly achieved the 100 hours of "break in time" called for with the VT60 - we are enjoying it, plus the boys are on summer break and the TV is on at least 6-7 hours a day whether watching movies, playing the PS3, etc.
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