Heads up comparison 65" S64 vs 60" ST60 ask me questions ! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 88 Old 10-11-2013, 12:12 AM
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Is the AR filter that is on the st60 only for bright OVERHEAD lights? I want an s60 for gaming and it being 400+ cheaper but I have a big window to the left of the TV and I'm curious if it'll be a problem. I have a big blind that I can pull down that is see through from the inside but not the outside but seems to cut out almost all the actual light rays as well. I don't have any overhead lights in my living room. So I'm really torn on which to get, I just don't want the S60 to have too much glare.
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post #62 of 88 Old 10-11-2013, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svt2nv View Post

Is the AR filter that is on the st60 only for bright OVERHEAD lights? I want an s60 for gaming and it being 400+ cheaper but I have a big window to the left of the TV and I'm curious if it'll be a problem. I have a big blind that I can pull down that is see through from the inside but not the outside but seems to cut out almost all the actual light rays as well. I don't have any overhead lights in my living room. So I'm really torn on which to get, I just don't want the S60 to have too much glare.

The s60 is terrible in bright lit rooms as the image washes out. That is the consensus of every reviewer. If your room is not dark you need to get at least the s64 or st60
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post #63 of 88 Old 10-12-2013, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

The s60 is terrible in bright lit rooms as the image washes out. That is the consensus of every reviewer. If your room is not dark you need to get at least the s64 or st60

Hey, Shenaniganz, thanks for this thread. I am having a terrible time deciding between the 60S60 and 60ST60 for my bedroom. Since you have spent so much time comparing the S series to the ST series, maybe you can help me with a question. Reflections are not really a concern, as we are able to get the room almost dark even in the daytime.

In my bedroom setup, the S60 or ST60 will be mounted up on the wall across from the bed. When lying in our bed, the middle of the TV screen will be about 30 inches higher than the level of our eyes, which will be about 11-12 feet from the screen. Thus, if we go with the ST60 our angle of view will not be perpendicular to the screen, but rather up and through the A/R filter at around a 10 to 15 degree angle lower than normal. I understand the A/R filter is designed mostly to minimize the reflection of light coming down from above, but does anybody know if looking through the A/R filter at an angle could cause some distortion or loss of sharpness of the image?

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post #64 of 88 Old 10-13-2013, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

The s60 is terrible in bright lit rooms as the image washes out. That is the consensus of every reviewer. If your room is not dark you need to get at least the s64 or st60

but i'm a gamer in a bright room...

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post #65 of 88 Old 10-13-2013, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svt2nv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

The s60 is terrible in bright lit rooms as the image washes out. That is the consensus of every reviewer. If your room is not dark you need to get at least the s64 or st60

but i'm a gamer in a bright room...

So get the S64 - best of both worlds - least lag and AR filter to handle the bright light.
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post #66 of 88 Old 10-15-2013, 03:52 AM
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So get the S64 - best of both worlds - least lag and AR filter to handle the bright light.

I'm in Canada...
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post #67 of 88 Old 10-19-2013, 03:47 PM
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I am glad u kept the St60 since I just bought one online sight unseen. I bought a TC-P442s1( loved it) 3 years ago and started having blinking red light issues about a year ago which i "solved" by plugging idirectly into wall as suggested here on AVS. Went on a vacation and unplugged the Tv from the wall. Plugged it back in and had issues from blinking to turning off after 20 minutes and finally next day no on at all just the 11 blinks. After extensively looking for a replacement, ,even considering led/lcd tvs decided to just bite the bullet. Went to Panasonic direct, bought the 50" s60 and go t free shipping. If this works out I am very grateful Many sites won't even ship here. I am crossing several thread boundries here.
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post #68 of 88 Old 10-19-2013, 04:23 PM
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After considerable searching and researching my order on Panny website where I placed the order I found the very obscure fine print of do not ship to Hawaii. Very disappointing.
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post #69 of 88 Old 10-19-2013, 04:49 PM
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After considerable searching and researching my order on Panny website where I placed the order I found the very obscure fine print of do not ship to Hawaii. Very disappointing.

No Sam's or Costco in Hawaii?

I guess the penalty you pay to live in paradise is that everything has to be re-exported there (from CA). It is like a foreign country. wink.gif
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post #70 of 88 Old 11-07-2013, 12:11 PM
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Hi Shenaniganz,

 

Thank you very much for this thread.  Your experience with these two particular TV's perfectly hits home with me because I am intensely debating on purchasing a 60" ST60 or a 65" S64 (I can get either for the same price).  I understand the overall PQ, 24p, & motion blur of the ST60 is better than the S64 but it sounds like it is only a little better.  Doesn't sound like the overall better PQ of the ST60 is a huge difference over the S64.  Do you agree with that?

 

Here is my main dilemma:  I will be sitting 11 - 12 feet away from the screen so, therefore, I am wondering if the extra 5" of the S64 will be more beneficial than the better PQ of the ST60.  Considering the distance I will be sitting, I am tempted to go with the bigger screen because I want to try to feel like I am "in" the movie.  (especially because a lot of movies have the two black bars which essentially "shrinks" the screen)

 

On the other hand, I taped off the two screen dimensions and the overall screen size of the two TV's are actually closer to each other than I thought.  The difference was not as much as I thought it would be.  But, then again, trying to judge it from taped outlines might be somewhat deceiving. 

 

So, that being said, I would greatly appreciate to hear your thoughts on this considering your personal experience with these two particular TV's.  Do you think, when considering the 11 - 12 foot distance I will be sitting, I am better off getting the 5" larger screen of the S64 or would the better PQ of the ST60 outweigh the extra 5" benefit of the S64 despite the distance I would be sitting?

 

Thanks very much!!

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post #71 of 88 Old 11-07-2013, 02:22 PM
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"CNET did not subject the Panasonic TC-PS64 series to a full review, but we have had extensive hands-on time with the 65-inch version. We've also reviewed the closely related TC-PST60 and TC-PS60 series.

Based on our observations, the S64 is a sort of hybrid between those two series. It offers the same screen filter technology as the ST60, which means it performs the same in bright environments. That advantage makes it a better all-around performer than the S60, which suffers under the lights.

In every other way it's essentially an S60: the same deep black levels and relatively accurate color (but not as accurate as the ST60's), the same inability to properly handle 1080p/24 content, the same excellent input lag score (35.3ms). The picture adjustments are the same as on the S60, as is the rest of the feature set: bare-bones Smart TV apps, just two HDMI inputs, and no 3D.

If you can afford an ST60 it's probably worth paying extra money for its advantages, including slightly better picture quality (namely color and 1080p/24 processing). That said, if I did a review of the S64 it would probably get a "9" in picture quality--the same as the ST60, and one point better than the S60--and a "10" in value, making it one of the best TVs of 2013.

So yes, the easiest way to think of the S64 is as a "poor man's ST60." For gamers sensitive to input lag, and people who don't consider the ST60's advantages worth the extra money, the S64 is a tremendous bargain.

The main downside is that the S64 is only available in 50- and 65-inch sizes, and only from wholesale clubs like Sam's Club and Costco. As of October 2013 inventory is relatively low on these models, according to Panasonic, and the company couldn't tell us whether it would be replenished in time for the holidays."

from (http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p65s64/4505-6482_7-35831113.html)
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post #72 of 88 Old 11-07-2013, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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The problem with most review sites is that they don't do direct heads up comparisons. While I appreciate his conclusions, I disagree with them. The st60 had superior blacks, was brighter, had better color, better motion handling and overall the picture quality is noticeably better when you push these TVs to their limits.
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post #73 of 88 Old 11-07-2013, 07:49 PM
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So, I think most of us agree that the ST60 has better PQ than the S64 in every way (except lag).

 

But, being that the S64 is also considered to have an excellent PQ (CNET says the PQ of the S60/S64 is second to the ST60), what I and probably others in the market are trying to figure out is how much better the ST60 PQ is compared to the S64 PQ in real life.  When comparing the major categories of picture quality of two different TV's, CNET likes to use simple adjectives.  Like saying something like, "X TV has somewhat better black levels than Y TV".  Statements like that are not as helpful as CNET might think.  Yes, they have the "Geek Box" data, but I think grading the categories into more everyday grading language would be helpful for most of the general public.

 

When you look at car magazines, they usually break down comparisons into major categories and give each category a score, like on a scale of 1 - 5 or 1 - 10.  This helps greatly in quantifying the results of testing and makes it easier for the general layman consumer to make an easier comparison decision.  Of course, there can be some subjectivity involved in the grading but it's still helpful to see the major categories broken down and graded.  Same thing for many music magazines.  Rating music is subjective but most reviews include a grading scale of some kind, like 1 - 5 "stars" for example.  Same thing with movie reviews.  And, for me at least, seeing a grade in addition to reading the review, is very helpful.

 

For example:

 

Based only on what I have read, perhaps it is safe to say that the overall PQ of the S64 would maybe be an "8" and the ST60 would be a "9" (VT and ZT would be a "10")?  Or would it be safe to say the S64 gets a "B+" in overall PQ and the ST60 gets an "A" (VT and ZT get "A+")?

 

Furthermore, breaking down each major category and giving each category a grade, it would be nice to grade the S64 and ST60 in categories such as:  Overall PQ, Color, Black Level, Brightness, Motion Processing (with ST60 "Motion Smoother" turned off), 24p Performance, Sound Quality, Lag, Sharpness/Graininess, etc.

 

I know there is some subjectivity involved in the grades and that's okay.  Taking a grade into consideration involves the reader of the review to trust the author of the review and I think this forum is mostly full of good, intelligent, trustworthy folks.  So, I think breaking it down into major categories and grading each category would be helpful, in my opinion.

 

Shenaniganz, since you have had the unique situation & advantage of comparing these two TV's in your home side by side, would you be willing to post grades of some kind for each major category?  You have already broken it down into some categories but would you be willing to simply add a grade of some kind to each category as well?  Same question for anyone else who has had experience with both of these sets.  Thanks for hearing me out.

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post #74 of 88 Old 11-07-2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

The problem with most review sites is that they don't do direct heads up comparisons. While I appreciate his conclusions, I disagree with them. The st60 had superior blacks, was brighter, had better color, better motion handling and overall the picture quality is noticeably better when you push these TVs to their limits.

umm, every CNET review is done with direct comparisons:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p55st60/4505-6482_7-35567256-2.html

look under comparison models details
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post #75 of 88 Old 11-07-2013, 08:50 PM
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So, I think most of us agree that the ST60 has better PQ than the S64 in every way (except lag).

But, being that the S64 is also considered to have an excellent PQ (CNET says the PQ of the S60/S64 is second to the ST60), what I and probably others in the market are trying to figure out is how much better the ST60 PQ is compared to the S64 PQ in real life.  When comparing the major categories of picture quality of two different TV's, CNET likes to use simple adjectives.  Like saying something like, "X TV has somewhat better black levels than Y TV".  Statements like that are not as helpful as CNET might think.  Yes, they have the "Geek Box" data, but I think grading the categories into more everyday grading language would be helpful for most of the general public.

When you look at car magazines, they usually break down comparisons into major categories and give each category a score, like on a scale of 1 - 5 or 1 - 10.  This helps greatly in quantifying the results of testing and makes it easier for the general layman consumer to make a decision.  Of course, there can be some subjectivity involved in the grading but it's still helpful to see the major categories broken down and graded.  Same thing for many music magazines.  Rating music is subjective but most most reviews include a grading scale of some kind, like 1 - 5 "stars" for example.  Same thing with movie reviews.  And, for me at least, seeing a grade in addition to reading the review, is very helpful.

For example:

Based only on what I have read, perhaps it is safe to say that the overall PQ of the S64 would maybe be an "8" and the ST60 would be a "9" (VT and ZT would be a "10")?  Or would it be safe to say the S64 gets a "B+" in overall PQ and the ST60 gets an "A" (VT and ZT get "A+")?

Breaking down each major category and giving each category a grade, it would be nice to compare the S64 and ST60 in:  Overall PQ, Color, Black Level, Brightness, Motion Processing (assuming ST60 "Motion Smoother is turned off), 24p Performance, Sound Quality, Lag, etc.

I know there is some subjectivity involved and that's okay.  Taking a grade into consideration involves the reader of the review to trust the author of the review and I think this forum is mostly full of good, intelligent, trustworthy folks.  So, I think breaking it down into major categories and grading each category would be helpful, in my opinion.

Shenanaganz, since you have had the unique situation & advantage of comparing these two TV's in your home side by side, would you be willing to post grades of some kind for each major category?  You have already broken down the categories but would you be willing to simply add a grade of some kind to each category as well?  Same question for anyone else who has had experience with both of these sets.  Thanks for hearing me out.

good question... saying the ST is better than the S in picture quality is useful but how much is a more important question and answering that question objectively generally requires a scientific process like that used by CNET, CR.org, or any other decent review site
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post #76 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Based only on what I have read, perhaps it is safe to say that the overall PQ of the S64 would maybe be an "8" and the ST60 would be a "9" (VT and ZT would be a "10")?  Or would it be safe to say the S64 gets a "B+" in overall PQ and the ST60 gets an "A" (VT and ZT get "A+")?

Shenaniganz, since you have had the unique situation & advantage of comparing these two TV's in your home side by side, would you be willing to post grades of some kind for each major category?  You have already broken it down into some categories but would you be willing to simply add a grade of some kind to each category as well?  Same question for anyone else who has had experience with both of these sets.  Thanks for hearing me out.

Sure but I'm busy at the moment, but my rating on PQ would be exactly how you called it.


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umm, every CNET review is done with direct comparisons:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p55st60/4505-6482_7-35567256-2.html

look under comparison models details

Well I'll be damned, that said I'll be honest. I don't really believe the testing done by CNET to be that accurate.

"The S60 actually looked the darkest of the three by a nose, but side by side against the ST60 it still lacked a bit of contrast and pop, and the other two a bit more so.

This is flat out wrong, it goes against all the currently available data and what my own eyes/camera detected. The ST60 has better blacks.

Anyways for those wondering about 60 vs 65 inches difference I made this diagram for you guys

http://i.imgur.com/FW1WrVu.jpg
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post #77 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 09:55 AM
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umm, every CNET review is done with direct comparisons:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p55st60/4505-6482_7-35567256-2.html

look under comparison models details


Thanks very much, but those links in the CNET "comparison" box do nothing more than simply link you to the review for whatever TV you click on in that "comparison" box.  Sadly, CNET does not actually do a true and comprehensive head-to-head comparison of TV's in a similar category.  I think they should.  If they did, in my opinion, they would create some kind of matrix chart and give each major aspect of Picture Quality (motion blur, black level, etc.) a grade of some kind so that one can truly compare each major Picture Quality aspect of each TV mentioned in that "comparison" box.   Instead, all they are doing is posting links to the individual reviews for TV's in a similar category and putting those links in a "comparison" box.

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post #78 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 10:13 AM
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Sure but I'm busy at the moment, but my rating on PQ would be exactly how you called it.

Anyways for those wondering about 60 vs 65 inches difference I made this diagram for you guys

http://i.imgur.com/FW1WrVu.jpg

 

Awesome.  Thank you so much.  Very much looking forward to seeing how you grade each category.  If you happened to have already experimented with 24p with both models, maybe you could grade that aspect as well.  Again, thanks very much.

 

Thanks for the custom diagrams.  Awesome.

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post #79 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 10:51 AM
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CNET does do side-by-side comparisons of models in the same category as the TV being reviewed, and they like to also review a TV a step up in the category so you know what the extra money will get you. Steve interviewed David from CNET on Home Theater Geeks recently, where David goes into detail on how they compare and rate TVs. It's a very informative show.

CNET also recently reviewed the S64 and said that they would recommend getting the ST60 if you can afford it because PQ is slightly better, particularly with color and 24p processing. But they did say it would rate a 9 in PQ, slightly better than the S60 due to the AR filter. They didn't go into a full review, but you can read the comments here.
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post #80 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 11:02 AM
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CNET does do side-by-side comparisons of models in the same category as the TV being reviewed, and they like to also review a TV a step up in the category so you know what the extra money will get you. Steve interviewed David from CNET on Home Theater Geeks recently, where David goes into detail on how they compare and rate TVs. It's a very informative show.

CNET also recently reviewed the S64 and said that they would recommend getting the ST60 if you can afford it because PQ is slightly better, particularly with color and 24p processing. But they did say it would rate a 9 in PQ, slightly better than the S60 due to the AR filter. They didn't go into a full review, but you can read the comments here.


Thank you.  Yes, I am aware of that brief review of the S64.  In that brief review, they also gave the ST60 a "9" in PQ, which just adds more fuel to the question of how much better is the ST60 compared to the S64.  This is why I really value what Shenaniganz has to say about these two TV's.

 

Could you please post a link to a CNET webpage that shows "side-by-side comparisons of models in the same category" as you mention above?  Specifically for the ST60 and S60/S64?  Thanks

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post #81 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 11:17 AM
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Thank you.  Yes, I am aware of that brief review of the S64.

Could you please post a link to a CNET webpage that shows "side-by-side comparisons of models in the same category" as you mention above?  Specifically for the ST60 and S60/S64?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. They don't publish the specifics in a chart as far as I know. I was describing their testing method. They actually set up similar TVs side-by-side when evaluating the TVs. The reviews often go into some detail about the comparisons, however.
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post #82 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 11:27 AM
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Sorry, I should have been more specific. They don't publish the specifics in a chart as far as I know. I was describing their testing method. They actually set up similar TVs side-by-side when evaluating the TVs. The reviews often go into some detail about the comparisons, however.


Gotcha.  Understood.

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post #83 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 11:29 AM
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Sure but I'm busy at the moment, but my rating on PQ would be exactly how you called it.
Well I'll be damned, that said I'll be honest. I don't really believe the testing done by CNET to be that accurate.

"The S60 actually looked the darkest of the three by a nose, but side by side against the ST60 it still lacked a bit of contrast and pop, and the other two a bit more so.

This is flat out wrong, it goes against all the currently available data and what my own eyes/camera detected. The ST60 has better blacks.

Anyways for those wondering about 60 vs 65 inches difference I made this diagram for you guys

http://i.imgur.com/FW1WrVu.jpg

read the whole paragraph again...

Watching those scenes and comparing the ST60 with the others, the ST50, S60, and PNE6500 were all lighter in the letterbox bars and other areas. The S60 actually looked the darkest of the three by a nose, but side by side against the ST60 it still lacked a bit of contrast and pop, and the other two a bit more so. The 2012 sets were still superb, but the ST60 was just a bit better. Finally, every TV in the room far surpassed the DT60 in this department.

The "three" is referring to the ST50, S60, and PNE6500. So, the S60 is darker than the ST50 and PNE6500 NOT the ST60. Furthermore, it goes on to say the S60 lacked a bit of contrast and pop vs. the ST60.
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post #84 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 11:31 AM
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Thanks very much, but those links in the CNET "comparison" box do nothing more than simply link you to the review for whatever TV you click on in that "comparison" box.  Sadly, CNET does not actually do a true and comprehensive head-to-head comparison of TV's in a similar category.  I think they should.  If they did, in my opinion, they would create some kind of matrix chart and give each major aspect of Picture Quality (motion blur, black level, etc.) a grade of some kind so that one can truly compare each major Picture Quality aspect of each TV mentioned in that "comparison" box.   Instead, all they are doing is posting links to the individual reviews for TV's in a similar category and putting those links in a "comparison" box.

if you read the whole review starting at the picture quality section (usually at the bottom of page 1 or top of page 2), you see tht all the models listed (including the one being reviewed) are being compared in all areas of PQ
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post #85 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


if you read the whole review starting at the picture quality section (usually at the bottom of page 1 or top of page 2), you see tht all the models listed (including the one being reviewed) are being compared in all areas of PQ


Thanks.  I have read the entire review of the ST60 and S60 and the brief review of the S64 and I still stand by my complaints about CNET not providing us with bottom-line scores of some kind for each major aspect of PQ.  They just like to use adjectives in their comparison descriptions like: "better", "a bit better", "a bit brighter, "almost identical", "brighter", "darker", etc.  Constantly using adjectives like that is only helpful to a point.  In my opinion, it would even more helpful for all of us if they would post bottom-line scores of some kind for each category of PQ.  Perhaps something similar to this:  http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5-1    Check out the "Final Results" section.

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post #86 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mraya77 View Post


Thanks.  I have read the entire review of the ST60 and S60 and the brief review of the S64 and I still stand by my complaints about CNET not providing us with bottom-line scores of some kind for each major aspect of PQ.  They just like to use adjectives in their comparison descriptions like: "better", "a bit better", "a bit brighter, "almost identical", "brighter", "darker", etc.  Constantly using adjectives like that is only helpful to a point.  In my opinion, it would even more helpful for all of us if they would post bottom-line scores of some kind for each category of PQ.  Perhaps something similar to this:  http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5-1    Check out the "Final Results" section.

a valid point, but I have yet to see an ideal review site in this respect
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post #87 of 88 Old 11-08-2013, 03:46 PM
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a valid point, but I have yet to see an ideal review site in this respect


Yeah, me too.  I have been searching but still can't find one.

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post #88 of 88 Old 05-09-2014, 05:44 PM
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This is great info for people still looking to get used or floor model tvs. A lot of s64s and st60s to be had! I really appreciate the side by side comparisons of white and black screens! This was very informative!
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