Heads up comparison 65" S64 vs 60" ST60 ask me questions ! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 88 Old 09-13-2013, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello AVS

Here are my final results

Comparison

Panasonic TC-P65S64 vs Panasonic TC-P60ST60

Imgur Album for those that want just the pictures http://imgur.com/a/3zCAS#0

Cinema mode, Contrast changed to 85%, HDMI range nonstandard, panel brightness mid, gamma 2.4 all other settings left at factory defaults.

Pictures were taken using an iPhone 4 and a DSLR, all exposures times f/stops, ISO, focal length used for comparisons were equal.

1) Bright light conditions Winner : Tie



Both panels look equally grey

2) Black Levels Winner: ST60

side by side


S64


ST60



3) White Levels Winner: ST60




In general the ST60 whites were less murky. This could just be because its smaller. Panel uniformity was equal

4) Gradiation winner: ST60

S64


ST60


This one was difficult to capture, from all the shows/movies I have I only had two instances of Banding on the s64. The first is the face on Haruto (pictured above) in the show Valvare, the second is Voight-Kampf test in the movie Blade runner (unable to capture this one).

5) Gaming Winner: S64



The ST60 lagged by about one-frame compared to the S64

6) Motion Blur Winner: ST60

S64


ST60


This was something I didn't plan on testing but stumbled upon while playing Megaman 2. The S64 had a noticeably longer motion blur tail.

Other stuff

7) Anti Reflective Filter Winner: Tie

The ST60 did have reflections that were about 10-15% more dim but this was neglilible and probably more to do with the black filter than with the actual anti-reflective filter.

8) Sound Winner: Tie

Both were decent, but with a TV this size you really should invest in an actual speaker system

9) Connectivity Winner: ST60

3 HDMI ports vs 2 HDMI ports, and you get a SD Card reader

10) Buzzing Winner: ST60

Both TV's buzz when they have a 100% white screen, but the ST60's buzz is a slightly lower (could be because its smaller)

11) Line bleed/brightness changes winner: Tie

Both TV's exhibit the same flaws that Plasma TV's are known to have so no clear winner

12) Aesthetics Winner: Tie

The ST60 is about 40% thinner but the S60 has less chrome around the TV, which to me makes it look better.

13) Options winner: ST60

If you want more audio options, video options, home screen options, apps, 3D, etc then ST60 has way more options

TL:DR

65" S64
Pros: Larger, Cheaper, menus seem faster, less lag overall less intrusive
Cons: 10-15% dimmer whites, blacks are not as dark, colors are less accurate out of the box,

60" ST60
Pros: Blacks are darker, whites are brighter, better black gradation, less motion blur = sharper picture
Cons: More expensive, smaller, more intrusive.

Final Conclusion

I chose the ST60. In the end the size and value of the 65" S64 were not enough to overthrow the ST60. The best way to sum it up is that the ST60 has a newer more "premium look" to the picture. If you want the biggest TV for the money, or you are an hardcore gamer , then go for the S64/S60. Otherwise I think the ST60 is probably a better choice for most people.
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post #2 of 88 Old 09-13-2013, 10:17 PM
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FYI the ads are pretty easy to disable, just a few menu clicks and you don't have to deal with it anymore.
http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57588584-285/turn-off-banner-ads-on-your-2013-panasonic-tv/

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #3 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Its not just the banner ads, the st60 is overall more "annoying". when you turn it on you have to select a screen, you get a lot more messages (ads and also other stuff like "3d content detected") while the s64 is a lot more straightforward

but thank you for the reply, keep them coming guys


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post #4 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Hello AVS (first time making a thread !)
After agonizing for weeks I finally decided last night to go to Best Buy and purchased a 60" ST60. I plan on doing a heads up comparison over the weekend so please ask questions if you want me to do any comparisons. The losing TV will be going back to the store


Hmmm. Ok.
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post #5 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 04:57 AM
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Thanks. I am mostly concerned with picture quality difference between the two. Is it noticeable?
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post #6 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Its not just the banner ads, the st60 is overall more "annoying". when you turn it on you have to select a screen, you get a lot more messages (ads and also other stuff like "3d content detected") while the s64 is a lot more straightforward

Apparently you don't know that you can go into the TV's settings menu and change the default Home Screen settings so when you turn the TV on, it goes straight to one of the TV's inputs such as HDMI-1 or Component etc. It's right there in the E-Help manual.

And the "3D Content Detected" thing seems to be very rare.

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post #7 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 10:28 AM
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Have you displayed a 0% black screen on both of the panels? If you have, how much of a difference in the blacks between them?
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post #8 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Its not just the banner ads, the st60 is overall more "annoying". when you turn it on you have to select a screen, you get a lot more messages (ads and also other stuff like "3d content detected") while the s64 is a lot more straightforward

Apparently you don't know that you can go into the TV's settings menu and change the default Home Screen settings so when you turn the TV on, it goes straight to one of the TV's inputs such as HDMI-1 or Component etc. It's right there in the E-Help manual.

The link I posted has instructions on that too.

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #9 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 02:25 PM
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I guess the thing that bugs me about this thread (& many others in the forums) is the flip approach to returning sets. Some posters claim to have returned 5 sets. Can't think of another product that anyone would repurchase to that degree.

I agree the sets should meet advertised specs, but reading through the threads many sets are returned for really subjective & sometimes suspect reasons. Not denying there are legitimate reasons for some returns, but many deficiencies that are pointed out aren't even visible when watching anything but slides, or aren't visible from reasonable viewing distances.

2 Green issues here. 1 is pure waste, the other the impact the return rate must have on pricing.

To each his own I guess.
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post #10 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Its not just the banner ads, the st60 is overall more "annoying". when you turn it on you have to select a screen, you get a lot more messages (ads and also other stuff like "3d content detected") while the s64 is a lot more straightforward

but thank you for the reply, keep them coming guys

If you read that link to CNET it will tell you how to make it start up in full screen and not have to select a screen when you turn it on.
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post #11 of 88 Old 09-14-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

The link I posted has instructions on that too.

Ah. I thought it was just about turning off the Banner Ads......

Regardless, the Banner Ads and Home Screen default settings are easily turned off when first setting up the TV, never to be seen again, so there's nothing "annoying" about them other than having to take 10 seconds of your life to turn them off forever. To use either of these as additional reasons to pick an S60 over an ST60 is just silly.
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Originally Posted by cv1981 View Post

Have you displayed a 0% black screen on both of the panels? If you have, how much of a difference in the blacks between them?

Some have criticized televisioninfo.com (now reviewed.com) for their reviews, but if you can believe what they measured, the ST60 and the S60 (therefore, the S64) measured the same black level. I'm only interested in whether there is a noticeable difference in picture quality, and I don't think it is going to be significant, honestly. The AR filter and the Infinite Black panel of the S64 get it pretty close to the ST60, which has an Infinite Black Pro panel according to Panasonic's product info sheet.

I think that line bleed and the subtle flickering brightness are going to be about equal. Could you test those? The line bleeding should be easy to test. There's a thread already on the subject which has some good test pics you can download to a USB stick.

One thing I also believe the S60/4 has going for it over the ST60 is ascetics. I prefer the aluminum trip on the top and bottom of the S60/4's frame over the plastic trim around the ST60's edges. Both are great TVs, so this is a minor quibble, but I prefer the S60/4's subtler approach. And since we're making comparisons I just wanted to throw that in there. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by roadbike60035 View Post

I guess the thing that bugs me about this thread (& many others in the forums) is the flip approach to returning sets. Some posters claim to have returned 5 sets. Can't think of another product that anyone would repurchase to that degree.

I agree the sets should meet advertised specs, but reading through the threads many sets are returned for really subjective & sometimes suspect reasons. Not denying there are legitimate reasons for some returns, but many deficiencies that are pointed out aren't even visible when watching anything but slides, or aren't visible from reasonable viewing distances.

2 Green issues here. 1 is pure waste, the other the impact the return rate must have on pricing.

To each his own I guess.

I totally agree with you and pretty much questioned the practice in an earlier post in this thread, then thought about it and edited. I didn't put it as eloquently as you and was wary of the feedback because as you say, it seems to be widespread and acceptable to many.
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I got the ST60 yesterday and so far cable TV (direct coax, no box) looks only average. Blu rays on the other hand look phenomenal...

I like everything about this set so far except the black filter (to preserve image quality under lights)... it's way too aggressive and seems like a useless thing to have for me since there are no overhead lights in my living room at all. I know that ugly, blacked out screen is only visible when looking overhead or from below up to the screen, but the TV is in a small area and I have to get up and walk around often and have to be reminded of it every time I pass by the screen. Otherwise seems like a great set, a lot brighter than I had thought it would be, but they should have left the black filter off of it.
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

I got the ST60 yesterday and so far cable TV (direct coax, no box) looks only average. Blu rays on the other hand look phenomenal...

The picture quality of most cable providers is poor. What i did for one friend of mine with a really crappy overly-compressed basic cable signal is to use the TV's internal tuner with a roof antenna to watch the local HD broadcast channels (they looked WAY better over antenna than they did over basic cable), then dug out and set up his old VCR to view his basic cable channels via the Composite input (the analog basic cable channels look exactly the same over the VCR as they do through the TV's tuner anyway).

Quote:
I like everything about this set so far except the black filter (to preserve image quality under lights)... it's way too aggressive and seems like a useless thing to have for me since there are no overhead lights in my living room at all. I know that ugly, blacked out screen is only visible when looking overhead or from below up to the screen, but the TV is in a small area and I have to get up and walk around often and have to be reminded of it every time I pass by the screen. Otherwise seems like a great set, a lot brighter than I had thought it would be, but they should have left the black filter off of it.

Actually the filter you're talking about is the Anti-Reflective Louver Filter that's on the outer screen. The Black Filter is basically a sheet of tint applied directly to the face of the panel and the S60 has one, as do all the other models (although the higher models' Black Filter is blacker).

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post #17 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

The picture quality of most cable providers is poor. What i did for one friend of mine with a really crappy overly-compressed basic cable signal is to use the TV's internal tuner with a roof antenna to watch the local HD broadcast channels (they looked WAY better over antenna than they did over basic cable), then dug out and set up his old VCR to view his basic cable channels via the Composite input (the analog basic cable channels look exactly the same over the VCR as they do through the TV's tuner anyway).
Actually the filter you're talking about is the Anti-Reflective Louver Filter that's on the outer screen. The Black Filter is basically a sheet of tint applied directly to the face of the panel and the S60 has one, as do all the other models (although the higher models' Black Filter is blacker).

Thanks Randy, I guess I can live with the cable for a while since I don't watch too much regular TV. Thanks to this forum, I knew cable wasn't going to look good (although the same cable looked a whole lot better on my previous Sony LCD). I'm still playing with the many picture settings. Most of my viewing is blu ray.

Just too bad about that Louvre filter...mars an otherwise excellent set for me.
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Originally Posted by roadbike60035 View Post

I guess the thing that bugs me about this thread (& many others in the forums) is the flip approach to returning sets. Some posters claim to have returned 5 sets. Can't think of another product that anyone would repurchase to that degree.

I agree the sets should meet advertised specs, but reading through the threads many sets are returned for really subjective & sometimes suspect reasons. Not denying there are legitimate reasons for some returns, but many deficiencies that are pointed out aren't even visible when watching anything but slides, or aren't visible from reasonable viewing distances.

2 Green issues here. 1 is pure waste, the other the impact the return rate must have on pricing.

To each his own I guess.

1) We don't live in a world where we are allowed to compare the televisions directly next to each other. Instead the only options are to compare the "Vivid settings" of a television against another one due to the harsh lighting that Best Buy and Costco has. It's no wonder LED LCD's are outselling Plasma television under those conditions

2) I am not doing anything unethical, I am fully compliant with both return policies

3) I took great care when setting up both televisions. Both were transported vertically, all the packaging is in perfect shape and the seals on the television surrond, manuals and 3d glasses have been left untouched.

4) By doing a review, taking pictures and documenting my findings I am trying to save other people the time, money and hassle of wondering how the two monitors stack up.


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post #19 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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post #20 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

The picture quality of most cable providers is poor. What i did for one friend of mine with a really crappy overly-compressed basic cable signal is to use the TV's internal tuner with a roof antenna to watch the local HD broadcast channels (they looked WAY better over antenna than they did over basic cable), then dug out and set up his old VCR to view his basic cable channels via the Composite input (the analog basic cable channels look exactly the same over the VCR as they do through the TV's tuner anyway).
Actually the filter you're talking about is the Anti-Reflective Louver Filter that's on the outer screen. The Black Filter is basically a sheet of tint applied directly to the face of the panel and the S60 has one, as do all the other models (although the higher models' Black Filter is blacker).

100% correct that effect he is complaining about is the AR filter, not the black filter. The s60 doesn't have the AR filter if you are interested in it


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post #21 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

100% correct that effect he is complaining about is the AR filter, not the black filter. The s60 doesn't have the AR filter if you are interested in it

I've seen the S60 in stores and my main concern in returning my ST60 for it is a downgrade in picture quality. The ST60 has a really impressive black level and as you said in an earlier post, the ST60 is noticeably darker.

I do hate that A/R filter however... not sure if it's worth the trouble returning a TV this big (I can't fit it in my car) to try out another, but I guess that's the only way to know how good the S60 will perform in my living room.
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post #22 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

I've seen the S60 in stores and my main concern in returning my ST60 for it is a downgrade in picture quality. The ST60 has a really impressive black level and as you said in an earlier post, the ST60 is noticeably darker.

I do hate that A/R filter however... not sure if it's worth the trouble returning a TV this big (I can't fit it in my car) to try out another, but I guess that's the only way to know how good the S60 will perform in my living room.

Honestly I think you are being a bit to anal/OCD about it. You stated that you only notice it when you stand up and get close to the TV, that shouldn't be a big enough reason to return the television. That's like complaining that your speakers don't sound good when you stand over them.


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post #23 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Honestly I think you are being a bit to anal/OCD about it. You stated that you only notice it when you stand up and get close to the TV, that shouldn't be a big enough reason to return the television. That's like complaining that your speakers don't sound good when you stand over them.

So have you made a decision which one stays and which one goes?
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post #24 of 88 Old 09-15-2013, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So have you made a decision which one stays and which one goes?

Yup, just finished updating my first post


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post #25 of 88 Old 09-16-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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So are you leaning toward keeping the ST60 unit? I am going to keep the S60 for our guest bedroom, since we are now empty nesters and want to have a decent set in the room for guests and for when the grown up kids come to visit, but I have been thinking about also picking up a 60ST60 somewhere around the Black Friday period when there might be some special sale prices on them.

The ST60 was the winner for me, but read my comparison, it should give you ample information to help you make that decision.


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post #26 of 88 Old 09-16-2013, 11:42 AM
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How did you measure blackness? My 50s64 has excellent blacks and I don't see how another tv could beat it based strictly on visual assessment. JMO.
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post #27 of 88 Old 09-16-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by roadbike60035 View Post

I guess the thing that bugs me about this thread (& many others in the forums) is the flip approach to returning sets. Some posters claim to have returned 5 sets. Can't think of another product that anyone would repurchase to that degree.

I agree the sets should meet advertised specs, but reading through the threads many sets are returned for really subjective & sometimes suspect reasons. Not denying there are legitimate reasons for some returns, but many deficiencies that are pointed out aren't even visible when watching anything but slides, or aren't visible from reasonable viewing distances.
These panels are already expensive and for many a major purchase. So my reasoning, if I'm spending a lot on a pricey TV I want to make sure it works to my liking. I originally purchased a Samsung PNE550 from Amazon and found the screen glare too much so I returned it for a Panny ST50. This was within Amazon's return policy so, in my view, no harm no foul.
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post #28 of 88 Old 09-16-2013, 12:08 PM
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Like I said "there are legitimate reasons" & " to each his own. "

Not questioning anyone's ethics or the letter of the law regarding return policies.

The intent of the return policies is for return / exchange of defective or in some cases unsatisfactory products. Purchasing multiple sets from different stores to demo them is not the intent of the return policy from either store. Work with a local dealer or someone who can set up open box product for a demo if that's the intent.

I agree that these are investments & everyone ought to at least do their homework & understand what they're buying, it's capabilities etc.

COSTCO used to have a 6 month return policy on TVs; it's now 3 months. To think that leveraging return policies to the max, and flipping multiple sets doesn't impact pricing & store policies doesn't seem logical to ME.

Again - that's my point of view.... clearly not everyone's.
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post #29 of 88 Old 09-16-2013, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roadbike60035 View Post


Work with a local dealer or someone who can set up open box product for a demo if that's the intent.

1) This is simply not possible in most cases

2) What difference is there between an open box done by the store and an open box done by myself at home. I left all the packaging in place and returned the television in 100% mint condition.

3) Even if this "open box product demo" that you speak of existed, that would still only give you me a few minutes of "less than ideal" comparison time to make my decision. During my testing I found out that the ST60 has less motion blur, but this was only found after I did extensive testing, and there's no way I would have picked this up at the store. Other stuff like gaming lag are similar, there is just no way to test out this kind of stuff at stores.
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post #30 of 88 Old 09-16-2013, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

1) This is simply not possible in most cases

2) What difference is there between an open box done by the store and an open box done by myself at home. I left all the packaging in place and returned the television in 100% mint condition.

3) Even if this "open box product demo" that you speak of existed, that would still only give you me a few minutes of "less than ideal" comparison time to make my decision. During my testing I found out that the ST60 has less motion blur, but this was only found after I did extensive testing, and there's no way I would have picked this up at the store. Other stuff like gaming lag are similar, there is just no way to test out this kind of stuff at stores.

I agree... although it's a hassle to unopen then repackage a big TV, trying it out in your own home conditions at your own pace is really the only way to be 100% sure of what you're getting.
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