ST60 vs S60/S64 HELP ME! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all, I'm currently looking at these two models and am having a difficult time determining which is best for me so I thought I would ask you all for your recommendations.

I'm currently looking at the 60 inch st60 and the 65 inch s60/s64 models. Price really is not a factor. I could care less about 3d and smart tv apps as I have a ps3 and run all my apps through there. Most of my use for the tv will be for gaming with the occasionaly blu ray/netflix/sports games. I understand there's significant input lag but I'm willing to live with it if the picture quality is that much better on the st60. If the s60 is just a very, very minor step down from the st60 in PQ, however, I'd prefer to get the larger set and save a couple hundred in the process. Basically, I'm wondering if the picture quality on the s60 is in the same ballpark as the st60. Keep in mind I know next to nothing about tv's and this will really be my first big tv purchase. Well avs, what do you recommend for me given my current situation? I appreciate all of your time and feedback smile.gif
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post #2 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 10:42 AM
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Get the larger S60.
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post #3 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 10:55 AM
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what kind of room is it in going in and will watching the TV under bright ceiling lights and/or direct sunlight be likely? if most of your viewing is done in a dim/dark room (or at the very least no direct light hitting the screen), then the S60 is fine and the added 5" will be worth it

otherwise, the AR coating on the S64 and ST60 will help the screen from looking like a dark mirror (the S60 has a very reflective screen) and keep blacks/contrast solid under bright lighting
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post #4 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 01:17 PM
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Short answer: Go with the 65S64.

Long answer: I had the same delimma and was closely watching the Panny's for two years before finally pulling the trigger. I was in Brandsmart last year and was so close to taking the 50ST50 home for $799. I knew that was a great deal, but I didn't want another 50" TV. I was excited when they announced the ST60s because the upgrades sounded fantastic. But, my husband plays FIFA all the time on our PS3 and so after watching numerous videos on youtube about the issue, I decided it was a deal breaker and was going to skip the ST all together and go up to the VT. I actually had a great deal lined up on a 60" VT from amazon, but that is another story. I went with the 65S64 and I couldn't be happier.

But when I got it home, I was not impressed. Several things had to happen before I realized how great it is. First, I had to adapt to Plasma vs. the DLP I have had since 2005. Second, I upgraded my DirectTV box to the Genie from one that was put in 6 years ago. Third, I did D-Nice's slides. Then, fourth, after I got about 150 hours on the TV, I calibrated it. I tried all four of the calibration settings that have been posted and settled on the one I like best. Then I put in the FIFA 2014 demo and holy crap it looks so good. The picture is so crisp and beautiful. I cannot wait until the PS4 comes in November. It is going to look spectacular. Another reason to buy the Costco version is that for $99 more, you can get a 5 year warranty on it. And they have an amazing return policy if you don't like it. Since they are not making the S64's anymore, I would recommend picking one up quickly and seeing if you like it. If you are not happy with it, you can return it.
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post #5 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been trying to find the s64's but none are available in my area frown.gif
Is there any place online? I searched but couldn't find anything.

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate your input. And I'm excited to see how the ps4 looks on the tv I end up purchasing as well smile.gif
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post #6 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 02:02 PM
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Unfortunately, the S64's are only available in Sam's Club or Costco and they have been sold out online. You have to call the stores in your area and ask if they have any inventory left because online inventory is different from in store. I'm sure the S60 will still be beautiful though so don't worry about it too much. If picture quality is really the most important feature, you may also want to consider the VT60. There is a deals thread in the other forum that you might want to watch to get an ideal about good prices. I almost got the 60" for about $1800. So not much more than the 65S64 when all things are considered. The lag on the VT is 48ms which is better than the ST which is 74ms. Neither quite as good as S60 which has 34 ms. But the VT might be the compromise you are looking for between lag and picture quality.
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post #7 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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only one costco in my state has them and they are well over 3 hours away so it look's like the s64's are not an option, will most likely go with an s60. Thanks for your help smile.gif
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post #8 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

what kind of room is it in going in and will watching the TV under bright ceiling lights and/or direct sunlight be likely? if most of your viewing is done in a dim/dark room (or at the very least no direct light hitting the screen), then the S60 is fine and the added 5" will be worth it

otherwise, the AR coating on the S64 and ST60 will help the screen from looking like a dark mirror (the S60 has a very reflective screen) and keep blacks/contrast solid under bright lighting

I might add to this the ST's anti-reflective filter makes the image not quite as crisp and clear as on the S60 (which has no filter at all).
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post #9 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

I might add to this the ST's anti-reflective filter makes the image not quite as crisp and clear as on the S60 (which has no filter at all).

This is just a flat out wrong, don't listen to this guy.

OP I owned both sets and did direct heads up comparison

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490539/heads-up-comparison-65-s64-vs-60-st60-ask-me-questions

I chose the ST60 as it was simply a better screen, with "less compromise"
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post #10 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

This is just a flat out wrong, don't listen to this guy.

OP I owned both sets and did direct heads up comparison

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490539/heads-up-comparison-65-s64-vs-60-st60-ask-me-questions

I chose the ST60 as it was simply a better screen, with "less compromise"

The OP's question was about comparing the S60 and the ST60... not the S64.

It's been mentioned often here the A/R filter does limit the light output these sets have. So it does in fact slightly darken the image (you're not getting 100% pure image but a filtered one).

I definitely noticed this... but how much others will I don't know, or if they'll even notice it at all. It may or may not be a factor for them personally in their own environment. It is there nonetheless...
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post #11 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

This is just a flat out wrong, don't listen to this guy.

OP I owned both sets and did direct heads up comparison

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490539/heads-up-comparison-65-s64-vs-60-st60-ask-me-questions

I chose the ST60 as it was simply a better screen, with "less compromise"

Okay, so we just need to find out your choice and go with that? Your choice is automatically best for everyone? Just asking...
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post #12 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

The OP's question was about comparing the S60 and the ST60... not the S64.

Actually the OP is asking about the S64 and i quote: "I'm currently looking at the 60 inch st60 and the 65 inch s60/s64 models"


Quote:
It's been mentioned often here the A/R filter does limit the light output these sets have. So it does in fact slightly darken the image (you're not getting 100% pure image but a filtered one).

Yes it's been mentioned here but it's not necessarily true. At the Value Electronics HDTV Shootout several months ago someone in the audience asked if the AR Filter on the VT60 and F8500 had any detrimental effect on picture quality and all three ISF calibrators said that "It's a myth". The ST60 has the exact same AR Louver Filter as the VT60.

The filter that limits light output is the Black Filter that lies beneath the AR Filter (which is why the ST60 is brighter than the VT60 which has a slighly blacker Black Filter), but even if the AR Filter does slightly darken the image the ST60 is still brighter than the S60. I have compared both side by side at BB (under the store lights) and at Pauls (in a fairly dark showroom) and no matter how i adjusted the sets, the ST60 was brighter and had better blacks and better contrast in both stores. The simple fact is that a 3D panel is designed to be brighter than a non-3D panel. Regardless, all three TVs get plenty bright enough and have great picture quality, but the ST60 has a higher-performing panel and it's PQ is a little better than the S60/S64.


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I definitely noticed this... but how much others will I don't know, or if they'll even notice it at all. It may or may not be a factor for them personally in their own environment. It is there nonetheless...

As long as you are looking at the TV at roughly eye-level the AR Filter should not have any sort of adverse effect, but if you stand over the TV and look down at the screen or lay on the floor and look up at the TV then the AR Filter does darken the screen.

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post #13 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

The OP's question was about comparing the S60 and the ST60... not the S64.

It's been mentioned often here the A/R filter does limit the light output these sets have. So it does in fact slightly darken the image (you're not getting 100% pure image but a filtered one).

I definitely noticed this... but how much others will I don't know, or if they'll even notice it at all. It may or may not be a factor for them personally in their own environment. It is there nonetheless...

Yes, this is correct. I'm considering replacing my ST50 for an S60 solely because it doesn't have an A/R filter. I can't stand the one on the ST50. It reduces overall brightness and depth of the image. I know I'm in the minority but I can't stand A/R filters and would never want one, as just too much fidelity is lost due to them.
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post #14 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 07:42 AM
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As long as you are looking at the TV at roughly eye-level the AR Filter should not have any sort of adverse effect.
I'm afraid it still does, though I agree it is minimized when looking at the set straight on.
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post #15 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Yes, this is correct. I'm considering replacing my ST50 for an S60 solely because it doesn't have an A/R filter. I can't stand the one on the ST50. It reduces overall brightness and depth of the image.

Ok but exactly how do you know the AR Filter reduces overall brightness? How or what have you compared it to do arrive at this conclusion? There are no other models that use the ST50's Panel module but without it's AR Filter so there is no way to determine if the filter reduces the brightness and depth, so the only way to know for sure would be to place another ST50 next to your own but remove the outer glass (which contains the AR Filter) then do a direct comparison.

Quote:
I know I'm in the minority but I can't stand A/R filters and would never want one, as just too much fidelity is lost due to them.

I can understand that you prefer the look of a screen with no AR Filter, but i don't see how you can think that any fidelity is lost when the VE calibrators say otherwise, and also considering that the top four TVs with the best picture quality for 2013 (F8500, ZT60, VT60, ST60) all have virtually the same AR Filter.
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post #16 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

The OP's question was about comparing the S60 and the ST60... not the S64.

It's been mentioned often here the A/R filter does limit the light output these sets have. So it does in fact slightly darken the image (you're not getting 100% pure image but a filtered one).

I definitely noticed this... but how much others will I don't know, or if they'll even notice it at all. It may or may not be a factor for them personally in their own environment. It is there nonetheless...

1) Please read the title/question next time instead of just arguing
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Yes, this is correct. I'm considering replacing my ST50 for an S60 solely because it doesn't have an A/R filter. I can't stand the one on the ST50. It reduces overall brightness and depth of the image. I know I'm in the minority but I can't stand A/R filters and would never want one, as just too much fidelity is lost due to them.

2) Dear Vic_002 and Rwetmore, please stop with these unsupported claims. . As RandyWalters mentioned, every high end plasma has an AR filter, unless you both somehow think you know more than Plasma engineers.
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post #17 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

1) Please read the title/question next time instead of just arguing
2) Dear Vic_002 and Rwetmore, please stop with these unsupported claims. . As RandyWalters mentioned, every high end plasma has an AR filter, unless you both somehow think you know more than Plasma engineers.

1) and where was the S60 in your comparisons?

2) whether or not every high end plasma has an AR filter is something I never disputed. The fact that these filters limit light output on the Panasonics specifically was stated in the latest HDTV shootout (in other words, the pictures would be brighter without them), so it is a supported claim.

I'm not a plasma engineer, but I can see a difference. Others may not, nonetheless it's there.
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post #18 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

1) and where was the S60 in your comparisons?

2) whether or not every high end plasma has an AR filter is something I never disputed. The fact that these filters limit light output on the Panasonics specifically was stated in the latest HDTV shootout (in other words, the pictures would be brighter without them), so it is a supported claim.

I'm not a plasma engineer, but I can see a difference. Others may not, nonetheless it's there.

Yes, exactly. Some may prefer to have an A/R filter for their viewing environment (i.e. they find the trade off acceptable), which is fine with me. But all things being equal - in an ambient light controlled or near dark viewing environment, the set without the A/R filter will have better picture fidelity. Overall, I would say the loss of fidelity (i.e. reduced brightness and depth) is on the order of about 10-15% due to the presence of an A/R filter. This for me is a lot and not something I want to sacrifice. I'd rather try to control the light in the room. Besides, I also do a lot of viewing in a near dark environment. (*also, with an A/R filter, angle viewing results in an even greater reduction in depth and brightness).
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post #19 of 24 Old 09-26-2013, 06:25 AM
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I may not be a plasma engineer, or even an engineer of any kind, but logic dictates that if you put something between you and a light source, no matter how transparent it seems to be, it's going to affect the amount of light passing through. Maybe very slightly, but nothing is 100% transparent. Unless that filter is completely flat, there will be some prism effect too, unless it's made of something that has the exact same (insert proper word for the characteristic that "bends" light) as air. Lots of "unless" and other qualifiers, but it has to have SOME effect on the light passing through.
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post #20 of 24 Old 09-26-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
I've been trying to find the s64's but none are available in my area
Is there any place online? I searched but couldn't find anything.

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate your input. And I'm excited to see how the ps4 looks on the tv I end up purchasing as well

Check out Sams Club often. I've been watching their site for the last week and these 65 inch S64 sets are coming and going. I'd see it available for a couple hours, then taken down and then up again later. Yesterday it was listed as 'limited availability' today there isn't any comment about availability.

Good luck.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/plasma-tvs-televisions/1090.cp
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post #21 of 24 Old 09-28-2013, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Yes, exactly. Some may prefer to have an A/R filter for their viewing environment (i.e. they find the trade off acceptable), which is fine with me. But all things being equal - in an ambient light controlled or near dark viewing environment, the set without the A/R filter will have better picture fidelity. Overall, I would say the loss of fidelity (i.e. reduced brightness and depth) is on the order of about 10-15% due to the presence of an A/R filter. This for me is a lot and not something I want to sacrifice. I'd rather try to control the light in the room. Besides, I also do a lot of viewing in a near dark environment. (*also, with an A/R filter, angle viewing results in an even greater reduction in depth and brightness).

You could not be any more incorrect

I took me a while to find a picture that best illustrates what AR filter/coatings do



AR filters/AR coating allow 99-99.9% of light through especially when that light is perpendicular to the filter. When the light is not perpendicular (think glare from the sun) the filter stops it from refracting/reflecting back. The filter on the ST60 has a "vertical bias", This means that it will block out more light coming from the top (overhead lighthing) than it will from light coming horizontally. This is why the picture appears to get darker when you get above or below the TV.
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post #22 of 24 Old 09-28-2013, 07:14 PM
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If you're wanting better picture quality get the ST60. If you want a 65" and want to save a couple hundred bones, get the S60/S64. I don't notice enough lag input on my 60ST60 to tell you to steer away from it for gaming either. It's pretty well documented throughout this forum that the ST60 is the bee's knees compared to the S60/S64.
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post #23 of 24 Old 09-30-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by hoosierdsddie View Post

If you're wanting better picture quality get the ST60. If you want a 65" and want to save a couple hundred bones, get the S60/S64. I don't notice enough lag input on my 60ST60 to tell you to steer away from it for gaming either. It's pretty well documented throughout this forum that the ST60 is the bee's knees compared to the S60/S64.

 

X2.

 

So I swapped my S60 for an ST60; the ST60 is quite visibly a superior set.  I have six 8' windows in my room, the overall brighter screen and AR coating makes a big difference; and the picture is also better at night when there are no reflections in the room.  

 

I watched Life of Pi last night and it was absolutely beautiful on the ST60; definitely work a few hundred more IMO. 

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post #24 of 24 Old 09-30-2013, 07:37 PM
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You could follow this steps :First of all,Adapt to Plasma vs. Second,Upgraded a DirectTV box to the Genie . Third, Do D-Nice's slides.EoRNcT

  Follow the three steps  of the calibration settings that have been posted and settled on the one you like best.Gookd luck.

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