Are any of these plasma's worth the money? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 06:22 PM
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you're starting to make me think a Samsung f8500 is the perfect tv for you. it's very close to LED looking with static images, but maintains the plasma advantages of uniform backlighting and good motion. it's very much a mix of the benefits of LED and plasma in one display.

You definitely knew what you were getting into. That was precisely the reason I found the F8500 having the best compromises among ALL flat panels including the Kuro, and...yes, even the latest OLEDs. I prefer the F8500 over the Kuro because of superor ABL and brightness. I prefer the F8500 over the OLEDs because of superior motion performance. I like said, the F8500 isn't perfect, but it sure is very balanced. If only it had input lag to match its wonderful PQ...

Note I said among flat-panels lol. I still find CRTs having the best balances, that's why I'm still using them. Once the next year's Samsung plasma gets less input lag, that will be the start. (I really hope I can ditch my CRTs. They are way too small.)
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post #32 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 06:57 PM
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You definitely knew what you were getting into. That was precisely the reason I found the F8500 having the best compromises among ALL flat panels including the Kuro, and...yes, even the latest OLEDs. I prefer the F8500 over the Kuro because of superor ABL and brightness. I prefer the F8500 over the OLEDs because of superior motion performance. I like said, the F8500 isn't perfect, but it sure is very balanced. If only it had input lag to match its wonderful PQ...

The F8500 is surely revolutionary, but to get my dollars they will need to improve the black levels (i.e. get them below 0.001 fL) and get rid of any semblance of floating blacks. If they can do that next year, I just might buy one.
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post #33 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 07:36 PM
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KOF - spoken like a true non-owner. You base your rating of plasmas on what? A showroom? Nice FUD.
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post #34 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 08:34 PM
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Bright or not, a showroom's more than enough to check motion performance(and it was dark) , bite me if I can't afford an OLED that costs $9k that's going to get burn-in in a few years. As for the Kuro, are you in a denial that its light output is less than the F8500? An LCD loving friend that I know of bought the 500M and sold it right away because he disliked its dim picture. We all thought Kuro's strengths are not petty things like the light output? My preferences vastly differ from yours because my uses are simply different from yours, so how exactly am I spreading a FUD? If we were talking movies, sure the Kuros and the OLEDs are the kings, but movies aren't even in my radar when it comes to my display purchase.

Gee, the sensitivity meter just hit the fan.
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post #35 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

The F8500 is surely revolutionary, but to get my dollars they will need to improve the black levels (i.e. get them below 0.001 fL) and get rid of any semblance of floating blacks. If they can do that next year, I just might buy one.

I'll also add an ABL issue that Samsung chose to add blues among ABL falloff points. I am not saying the F8500 is perfect. Sure I could use more blacks, less ABLs, and even more brightness would be welcome. I believe getting rid of ABL is the first step for plasmas to be truly accepted among color experts. I know Panasonic commercial plasmas used for color works are seriously good, but there are always a room for improvement. Getting rid of dithering is another one. Panasonic VT60/ZT60 are finally starting to have perfectly clean look, it's too bad Panasonic can't continue their plasma development. Things were just getting started and they were doing so many things right.
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post #36 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

You definitely knew what you were getting into. That was precisely the reason I found the F8500 having the best compromises among ALL flat panels including the Kuro, and...yes, even the latest OLEDs. I prefer the F8500 over the Kuro because of superor ABL and brightness. I prefer the F8500 over the OLEDs because of superior motion performance. I like said, the F8500 isn't perfect, but it sure is very balanced. If only it had input lag to match its wonderful PQ...

Note I said among flat-panels lol. I still find CRTs having the best balances, that's why I'm still using them. Once the next year's Samsung plasma gets less input lag, that will be the start. (I really hope I can ditch my CRTs. They are way too small.)

I think you and I would get along well. my last treasured CRT died last spring, and that was what prompted my F8500 purchase. I actually would have replaced it with another CRT years ago, when I first started noticing some issues with the picture but there simply weren't any larger than 20" still available. I've been looking at TV's somewhat casually ever since and hadn't found anything acceptable until this year. I still wish I could get a big screen CRT though. I think the only thing I like about the flatscreens is the initial move in and set up, haha.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
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post #37 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I think you and I would get along well. my last treasured CRT died last spring, and that was what prompted my F8500 purchase. I actually would have replaced it with another CRT years ago, when I first started noticing some issues with the picture but there simply weren't any larger than 20" still available. I've been looking at TV's somewhat casually ever since and hadn't found anything acceptable until this year. I still wish I could get a big screen CRT though. I think the only thing I like about the flatscreens is the initial move in and set up, haha.

There's no such things as a perfect display and that's what makes me sad. CRTs certainly have a couple of caveats (small sizes, poor ANSI contrast) yet they also do many things right that's just not possible from the flat panels. It's also too bad that I'm not much of a movie watcher, otherwise I would have been very happy with a Kuro. Pioneer did make a legendary display that has very few tradeoffs. (Kuro black tweaks are by far my favorite part about the Kuros btw lol. A legend has just become more legendary haha) My search for my ideal display still continues. I haven't completely ruled out a CRT either. I'm thinking of buying a 32 inch Sony BVM. (I love my BVM, but it's only 20 inches)
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post #38 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 09:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I'll also add an ABL issue that Samsung chose to add blues among ABL falloff points. I am not saying the F8500 is perfect. Sure I could use more blacks, less ABLs, and even more brightness would be welcome. I believe getting rid of ABL is the first step for plasmas to be truly accepted among color experts. I know Panasonic commercial plasmas used for color works are seriously good, but there are always a room for improvement. Getting rid of dithering is another one. Panasonic VT60/ZT60 are finally starting to have perfectly clean look, it's too bad Panasonic can't continue their plasma development. Things were just getting started and they were doing so many things right.
I see more dithering (up close) on the ZT than the ole' Kuro 111FD. That could be a perception of size difference (65" versus 50"). Still, this doesn't matter much from typical seating distance with 20/20 vision acuity.
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post #39 of 40 Old 10-12-2013, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I'll also add an ABL issue that Samsung chose to add blues among ABL falloff points. I am not saying the F8500 is perfect. Sure I could use more blacks, less ABLs, and even more brightness would be welcome. I believe getting rid of ABL is the first step for plasmas to be truly accepted among color experts. I know Panasonic commercial plasmas used for color works are seriously good, but there are always a room for improvement. Getting rid of dithering is another one. Panasonic VT60/ZT60 are finally starting to have perfectly clean look, it's too bad Panasonic can't continue their plasma development. Things were just getting started and they were doing so many things right.

Agreed. It's a shame. They were just getting to reference or near reference level. While I haven't seen OLED, I'm convinced there is no inherent reason why plasma couldn't look just as good if they could get the minimum luminance level to less than 0.0005 fL. (which we know is possible because KURO did it). No set, even if it can do a true infinite black, is properly calibrated at infinite black. I know because I had the legendary direct view CRT XBR960 from Sony, which could easily do an infinite black; however, when the black level was properly set, I could easily still see a glow on an all black screen in a darkened room. Certainly 0.0001 fL or less would be more than enough (I'm convinced at least).
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post #40 of 40 Old 10-13-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

you're starting to make me think a Samsung f8500 is the perfect tv for you. it's very close to LED looking with static images, but maintains the plasma advantages of uniform backlighting and good motion. it's very much a mix of the benefits of LED and plasma in one display.

as for the FI, chances are if your TV had it, you'd know. it's a setting, something that can be turned on/off. not many plasmas have had any kind of FI because they haven't really needed them. technically speaking, they still don't, but some ppl have gotten used to the artificial look of LED's with FI and now they are asking for the same processing on the plasmas. personally, I find the FI on my f8500 totally unuseable. it's way too aggressive on the lowest settings and doesn't offer a separate control for de-judder. the d630 LCD I have in my bedroom actually makes good use of the processing. I think I have the de-judder at a setting of 2(out of 10 I think) and it's just enough to give me plasma like motion without making everything look artificial(I actually see everything like it's in fast forward when FI is turned on too high). I may have used some de-judder processing on the f8500 if it was available. still I don't think it's fair to say this is an advantage to LED's, since they are using it to stay even with the plasma's native motion processing

But the pricetag is just totally impossible for me. I'd be selling my LG and hopefully only have to pay 300 euros more and have the F5500. The 65 inch version of the F8500 is 2.779 euros and the 51 inch version,which would mean I go down in size and I don't want that, costs 1.689 euros. Nah I think I;m gonna do my best trying to get a F5500. smile.gif
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