Which Current Panasonics Have Experienced a MLL Drop Around the 250-300 Hour Mark? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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If you have a recent Panasonic that has experienced a MLL drop after the first few hundreds of hours of use please post here. I just got a 50" S60 on Sunday and currently my MLL measures in the 0.004 fL range and I've seen reviews/evaluations of the 50" ST60 with MLL in the 0.002 fL range. What I'm trying to figure out is whether my set's MLL will drop to the 0.002 fL range once the set reaches the 200-300 hour mark or whether the ST60 is supposed to have blacks twice as dark. CNET's review of both the S60 and ST60 put both around 0.004 fL after 130-150 hours of use, but all other sources put the ST60 significantly lower. If anyone can share any relevant or helpful info here, it would be greatly appreciated.
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post #2 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 10:10 AM
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Doesn't this usually happen to all plasmas with use?

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post #3 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If you have a recent Panasonic that has experienced a MLL drop after the first few hundreds of hours of use please post here. I just got a 50" S60 on Sunday and currently my MLL measures in the 0.004 fL range and I've seen reviews/evaluations of the 50" ST60 with MLL in the 0.002 fL range. What I'm trying to figure out is whether my set's MLL will drop to the 0.002 fL range once the set reaches the 200-300 hour mark or whether the ST60 is supposed to have blacks twice as dark. CNET's review of both the S60 and ST60 put both around 0.004 fL after 130-150 hours of use, but all other sources put the ST60 significantly lower. If anyone can share any relevant or helpful info here, it would be greatly appreciated.

It's very difficult to compare because different meters are being used to measure MLL and they are not all equal. The Klein is probably the most accurate for measuring MLL.

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post #4 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

It's very difficult to compare because different meters are being used to measure MLL and they are not all equal. The Klein is probably the most accurate for measuring MLL.

I used a C6, which is basically an enhanced D3. CNET used a CS-2000/LS-100. I think Chad B used a C6 in his review of the 50" ST60 and I believe D-Nice uses the K-10. Shouldn't all of these be able to differentiate between 0.004 fL and 0.002 fL?
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post #5 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 01:33 PM
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The CS-2000's bottom range is ~0.003 AFAIK, and the C6/D3 is ~0.001. The Klein is known for its speed and great low light readability... I would probably trust it the most for MLL measurements.

BTW, I don't know if you've seen shenaniganz08's comparison of the S64 and ST60, but if his comparison is accurate, the ST60 does have better black levels.
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post #6 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

The CS-2000's bottom range is ~0.003 AFAIK, and the C6/D3 is ~0.001. The Klein is known for its speed and great low light readability... I would probably trust it the most for MLL measurements.

BTW, I don't know if you've seen shenaniganz08's comparison of the S64 and ST60, but if his comparison is accurate, the ST60 does have better black levels.

yeah, though I'm guessing that comparison was done without many hours on either panel (so the S60 could theoretically 'catch up' after the panel ages)

CNET also used the LS-100 light meter, which I'm guessing can read down at least to 0.001 fL (C6/D3 level).
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post #7 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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maybe the question I should be asking is whether the changes noticed on last years ST50/GT50 were also present on the U50/UT50? could models below the ST line be using a different PDP that simply has worse black levels?
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post #8 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

yeah, though I'm guessing that comparison was done without many hours on either panel (so the S60 could theoretically 'catch up' after the panel ages)

CNET also used the LS-100 light meter, which I'm guessing can read down at least to 0.001 fL (C6/D3 level).
Ah, you're right... didn't know they use a light meter and didn't know the capabilities of the LS-100.
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post #9 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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post #10 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 06:21 PM
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Do you know how low the i1Display2 can read? I could check mine next time I do a touch up and see what the black reading is. Do I just provide the fTL reading for the 0% stimulus or is there a better way to do it? Looking at my last calibration, the 0% stimulus showed a 0.005 FTL (using 10% gcd window patterns)

My colormunki photo (spectro) read 0% stimulus as 0.004 FTL (using 4% mascior window patterns)

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post #11 of 52 Old 10-04-2013, 09:45 PM
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The i1D2 can read down to 0.02cd/m2 (or 0.0058fL).
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post #12 of 52 Old 10-05-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

Do you know how low the i1Display2 can read? I could check mine next time I do a touch up and see what the black reading is. Do I just provide the fTL reading for the 0% stimulus or is there a better way to do it? Looking at my last calibration, the 0% stimulus showed a 0.005 FTL (using 10% gcd window patterns)

My colormunki photo (spectro) read 0% stimulus as 0.004 FTL (using 4% mascior window patterns)

the size of the window should not matter since a 0% window is really just an all-black screen

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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

The i1D2 can read down to 0.02cd/m2 (or 0.0058fL).

so it seems the D2 can't go lower than 0.006 fL or so

the colormunki won't get close since budget spectros like it and the i1Pro1/2 have poor low light sensitivity once you start measuring 0% test patterns or close
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post #13 of 52 Old 10-05-2013, 09:10 AM
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Yeah, I figured the spectro wasn't reading accurate, but surprised the D2 can only read down to 0.0058 oh well. No plans currently to purchase a D3 since my D2 works fine when profiled off the spectro. Maybe another user with a D3 or comparable meter that can read down lower can provide the measurement you seek.

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post #14 of 52 Old 10-05-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm doing an experiment right now. I'm putting up an all-black screen and doing continuous reads with the C6. The goal is to see what value the black level settles to and to factor out the effects of IR.

Currently, it's very stable at 0.0033 fL (and it was 0.0044 fL last time I calibrated it during grayscale runs).

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post #15 of 52 Old 10-06-2013, 12:08 PM
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Interesting, so it already dropped? How many hours are you at?
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post #16 of 52 Old 10-06-2013, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Interesting, so it already dropped? How many hours are you at?

no, it didn't drop... I still get 0.004 fL when measuring black as part of a grayscale run (100% white is displayed right before it in CalMAN)

I get 0.003 fL after displaying an all-black screen for a while (once all IR has faded completely).

how do I check hours on a 2013 model?
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post #17 of 52 Old 10-06-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


[snip]

how do I check hours on a 2013 model?

Same way we did with our PZ80 models.

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post #18 of 52 Old 10-06-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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post #19 of 52 Old 10-06-2013, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

no, it didn't drop... I still get 0.004 fL when measuring black as part of a grayscale run (100% white is displayed right before it in CalMAN)

I get 0.003 fL after displaying an all-black screen for a while (once all IR has faded completely).
Oh I see.
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post #20 of 52 Old 10-07-2013, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Same way we did with our PZ80 models.

Larry

Just out of curiosity, I checked my PZ80 and it is at ~9,200 hours.
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post #21 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm currently at 150 hours or so and the MLL is 0.0028 fL. So, it's possible it's slowly dropping as the hours accumulate.

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post #22 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 08:29 AM
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I wonder what they changed to cause this or was it some bug in my 2010 Panasonic S2 which as the hours increased, the black level increased (aka got worse).

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post #23 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 08:43 AM
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The driving method for the panels was changed in 2012 and the programmed black level increases ended as well.

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post #24 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I'm currently at 150 hours or so and the MLL is 0.0028 fL. So, it's possible it's slowly dropping as the hours accumulate.


I don't have a meter reading to prove it but I believe my black levels have dropped also, at about 250 hours now(ST60)..

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post #25 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

The driving method for the panels was changed in 2012 and the programmed black level increases ended as well.

does that mean once it drops (let's say around 200-300 hours), it stays that low? or does it mean it won't get brighter than where it was at 0 hours?

(I guess I'm asking is what happens at 1000 hours, 2000, hours, and so on)
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post #26 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 09:55 AM
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That's a very good question, the data I have seen suggests blacks stay stable, I know for a fact they don't get worse.

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post #27 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That's a very good question, the data I have seen suggests blacks stay stable, I know for a fact they don't get worse.

that sounds good, my question was based on some data I saw from a VT30

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57362126-221/update-long-term-plasma-tv-tests-enter-second-year/
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post #28 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 10:07 AM
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Yes I think that was the last year impacted, the 2011 models were supposedly free from this but the tests(also confirmed by Dnice) showed otherwise. Never saw a black level rise on my ST30 but know another owner that did. A calibrator here(Buzz) has the VT50 and has confirmed blacks are still stable at over 2000 hours I believe.

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post #29 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Yes I think that was the last year impacted, the 2011 models were supposedly free from this but the tests(also confirmed by Dnice) showed otherwise. Never saw a black level rise on my ST30 but know another owner that did. A calibrator here(Buzz) has the VT50 and has confirmed blacks are still stable at over 2000 hours I believe.

good to know
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post #30 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 12:49 PM
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My 60ST50 has remained stable after (late edit) ~685hrs. Dropped slightly from ~0.0029 to ~0.0026 over this time.

From what I gather, it seems like the larger panels don't drop as much, but start off lower.
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