Panasonic exiting plasma business by march 2014 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 475 Old 10-10-2013, 08:40 PM
 
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I imagine it could be kin to how investors react in the stock market (emotionally, not necessarily rationally). The fear of having a hot potato that would languish unsupported by the manufacturer in the event of a defect and a customer base who would feel the same.
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post #92 of 475 Old 10-10-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I imagine it could be kin to how investors react in the stock market (emotionally, not necessarily rationally). The fear of having a hot potato that would languish unsupported by the manufacturer in the event of a defect and a customer base who would feel the same.
If I understand you correctly that would make more sense if Panasonic was going out of business. But since we both know they are not...

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post #93 of 475 Old 10-10-2013, 09:41 PM
 
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I was suggesting those who possessed stock might have been acting irrationally (they were mistakenly equating Pioneer's display business exit as an end of support). The price going down in the event of scarcity doesn't make much sense otherwise.
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post #94 of 475 Old 10-10-2013, 10:23 PM
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Totally satisfied with the 3 plasmas in my household, 151FD, vt50, and the zt60. This news indeed saddens me as it's the designated fate of anyone that attempts to make quality flat panel displays (Pioneer plasmas, Sharp Elite, Panasonic plasmas).....have to face the music, very niche market and no one willing to shell out this kind of $$ when LCDs are so cheap, bright, and for the most part decent PQ with a full set of functions for 99% of the population. I can only predict with Panasonic exiting with just basically Samsung in the game....there's not enough competition for them to "improve" on their tech as well moving forward for plasmas. I'll be keeping my eyes open for another ZT60 if I see any kind of clearance.....yet another sad day for plasma fans.
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post #95 of 475 Old 10-10-2013, 11:37 PM
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I have't shopped for a serious TV in 6 years since I bought my Pioneer 150 FD. It is interesting that the Kuros still receive rave reviews as the best television ever made and most likely will remain so with this announcement until OLED can be made larger and less expensively. Sad day for videophiles. Lets hope OLED gets here in a meaningful way sooner rather than later. And hang onto those Kuros.
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post #96 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:13 AM
 
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some claim the Panasonic zt series is the best now, surpassing the kuros. But for me Panasonics bother me too much with flicker and the kuros do bother me quite badly, but nothing compared to panny. I still say the kuro likely has some advantages over the zt, such as higher peak light output. I kind of wish the kuros had 3D, though. I know I would rarely sue it if they had been made in the 3D era, but it's still a nice feature for occasional use.

Anyway, so this news is only sad for a couple years and then when OLEDs are cheaper there would be zero point in plasmas remaining around. Some repair guy was telling me what a huge amount of energy is just wasted in plasmas and then what advantage would they have over an OLED? Maybe longevity, as we don't know for sure how OLEDs will be over years, I guess.
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post #97 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Anyway, so this news is only sad for a couple years and then when OLEDs are cheaper there would be zero point in plasmas remaining around..

I don't understand why this sentiment seems to be so prevalent. I see so many on these boards going all-in on OLED, but if the larger screens are anything like the ones that we've been able to buy for years on cellphones/PS Vita/etc. then color me unimpressed. Having zero luminance blacks is nice and all, but my main concern at this point is how well the technology will handle motion. From what I've seen, OLED has more in common with LCD than plasma in this regard and -- using cellphones as an example -- IPS continues to enjoy a distinct advantage in this area. From the first implementation until now, ghosting/smearing has been a fact of life on these handsets and there has been no discernible improvement. Add to that the early reports of dead/slow pixels, image retention concerns, long-term reliability concerns, and uniformity issues (I'm not sure if this is still prevalent, but even as of a year ago every OLED-equipped device I've seen shows blotches in blacks when viewed in a darkened room) and I think it's a dangerous prospect to assume that OLED will be as bulletproof as many on these forum(s) claim.
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post #98 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 08:53 AM
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post #99 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 09:19 AM
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It is unfortunate that people think that a bright LED TV display is better than a less-bright plasma one and don't notice that the former loses details in shadows that can be seen on a plasma screen.

This brighter-is-better is akin to comparing loudspeakers--the louder one is judged to be better. Similarly, a car with a gas pedal that requires little effort to get to 60mph is faster than one that needs to be pushed harder. Disreputable curb-side or shade-tree mechanics could make an old carburetor-type car seem peppier by fiddling with the spring of the throttle linkage.
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post #100 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washu View Post

breathe.

thank you.

No, see I am coming from DLP. One thing I have noticed is, many stores with delivery and take away don't take DLP, Even if it worked I haven't found a charity that would have taken it. Will Plasma sets go that way? Quite possibly, their weight, their energy requirements, that glass panel, all add up to an easy way to being a garage queen once its done.

I love the abilities presented by plasma, its a great tech, but OLED is probably its best replacement if not a replacement across the board. Once Panasonic, Sony, and others, figure it out there will be a year where the price at Christmas may be half or less than the preceding one.

I am leery of buying something where getting it fixed becomes a chore, like my LED driven DLP.

I see you're getting a couple of overly emotional responses to your position! No such venom here, but my take is, it's the exact same excellent quality TV as it was last week, when people merely expected Panasonic to drop out of plasma production at some stage. Panasonic support will still be the same as it was when plasmas were in production - which is virtually nil. Getting any TV fixed is going to be a major chore, regardless of whether the technology is still around. Basically it's not economically viable to fix these things, unless you buy an extended warranty. I just found that out on a 6yr old Panasonic plasma - prices on 50" models have dropped to approx. the same cost as repairing the HDMI board on my TV. Anyway, your $, your call, but you'd still be getting the same TV as before the announcement, and I would bet the farm that prices come down. Any company EOL'ing a product will blow out remaining inventory at a discount so they can retire the sku, and move on to new products.
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post #101 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 10:27 AM
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This sucks but it's not a huge surprise. Plasmas do look worse in store to the layman. When I went shopping for a tv recently all the Plasmas looked dim compared to their LCD counter parts. I grabbed one anyway (an S64) because of the great price and good things I'd heard. A lady next to me was asking the staff for recommendations and they down played Plasma and said the LEDs were the best just look at the colors! I'm sure this type of conversation plays out all over the place. When I got my Plasma home and replaced my 7 year old Samsung LCD I was amazed. It's like I'd never seen black before. I'm thankful I had the chance to grab one of these before they go extinct.
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post #102 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 10:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

some claim the Panasonic zt series is the best now, surpassing the kuros. But for me Panasonics bother me too much with flicker and the kuros do bother me quite badly, but nothing compared to panny. I still say the kuro likely has some advantages over the zt, such as higher peak light output. I kind of wish the kuros had 3D, though. I know I would rarely sue it if they had been made in the 3D era, but it's still a nice feature for occasional use.

Anyway, so this news is only sad for a couple years and then when OLEDs are cheaper there would be zero point in plasmas remaining around. Some repair guy was telling me what a huge amount of energy is just wasted in plasmas and then what advantage would they have over an OLED? Maybe longevity, as we don't know for sure how OLEDs will be over years, I guess.
Improved gradation (less false contouring) and slightly better shadow detail are other benefits of the Panasonic line (I mean, after 5 years of research and development, there have to be some improvements smile.gif).
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post #103 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Improved gradation (less false contouring) and slightly better shadow detail are other benefits of the Panasonic line (I mean, after 5 years of research and development, there have to be some improvements smile.gif).
worse ir processing build smile.gif

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post #104 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 01:17 PM
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It really doesn't matter to me. I upgrade my set every six years or so. By the time I'm ready to replace my ST50, OLED should be reasonably priced and I'll be good to go.

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post #105 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 01:37 PM
 
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Well, reviews of the current OLED tvs seem to be saying motion is handled greatly on them, due to fast response times. But I haven't read in too much detail, so maybe there is more to it, such as the motion still not being natural or something. And as far as lcd brightness.... well I am starting to think part of why a lot of plasmas give me headaches has something to do with lower brightness. I used an LCD on torch mode for years and people may be all correct that it's an inaccurate representation of the scenes, but I didn't have horrible headaches.
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post #106 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:00 PM
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This has been rumored for quite some time. So, not really a surprise...at least, not to me.

I bought my TCP65VT60 two weeks ago, with this knowledge. I also own a 60" 9G KURO when it first came out, that's still going strong.

I now onw the two best TVs (picture quaility) ever made. Even to this day, the KURO 9G will embarrass most other TVs currently on the market (with the exception of the Pannys). The VT60 exceeds the 9G KURO's picture quality.

So, while all of the talk of OLED, improved LEDs, 4K, TVs etc, the plasma technology sitll has yet to be bested by anything you can by now, or anywhere in the future given the current content (1080P).

3-5 years from now, who knows? I'll worry about it then. In the meantime, I'm conmfortable with the fact that I own the best PQ in not one, but two TVs that I own, and will for some time.

Have you seen the prices on the remaining previous generation Panny GT series plasmas (which are still out there but scarce)? They are at the highest I've ever seen them. I get the feeling these Pannys are going to start getting really scarce, really soon. So, get them while you can.

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post #107 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:08 PM
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Interesting article about Panasonic and the state of the TV industry in Japan.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/09/japan-televisions-idUSL4N0HZ4CU20131009

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post #108 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Improved gradation (less false contouring) and slightly better shadow detail are other benefits of the Panasonic line (I mean, after 5 years of research and development, there have to be some improvements smile.gif).

Vinnie, I agree with you, overall the zt60 is an improvement on the 9G kuros except for 1 glaring flaw (least in my eyes). The way the Kuro handles motion is very natural.....Panasonic....not so much, I've tried all the different frequencies and cannot make it look as natural as the Kuro handles motions/pan shots. Amazing tv though the zt60 is.....just have to wait till I get mine calibrated properly.....
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post #109 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:10 PM
 
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graphicguy, you're not counting OLEDs which can be bought currently, however. Supposedly they have enarly perfect emasurements across the board for black elvel, color accuracy, nearly instantaneous refreshing, etc.
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post #110 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:13 PM
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Well, you guys twisted my arm. I just ordered a TC-P65VT60. I already have a a 65ST50, a 65S2, and a 58PZ700U, so I'm already a huge Panasonic plasma fan, and each newer model has bested my expectations -- hopefully the VT60 will continue that trend!
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post #111 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:16 PM
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Vinnie, I agree with you, overall the zt60 is an improvement on the 9G kuros except for 1 glaring flaw (least in my eyes). The way the Kuro handles motion is very natural.....Panasonic....not so much, I've tried all the different frequencies and cannot make it look as natural as the Kuro handles motions/pan shots. Amazing tv though the zt60 is.....just have to wait till I get mine calibrated properly.....

What are you using for settings because as a 9G owner and a VT owner I see no difference whatsoever? Motion handling is one of the strengths noted by nearly every reviewer of the VT/ZT displays this year.
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post #112 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:28 PM
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What are you using for settings because as a 9G owner and a VT owner I see no difference whatsoever? Motion handling is one of the strengths noted by nearly every reviewer of the VT/ZT displays this year.

Off topic a bit from the thread but I use THX Cinema for night time viewing and THX Day for daytime viewing to keep it simple (till I break it in and call for an ISF calibration from Jeff Meier since he did such a great job with my kuro) with the refresh rate set @ 96hz. If I remember properly, 60hz introduced judder and 48hz had some weird flickering issues....96hz seems to work best but the movement and panning shots does not look as fluid as my Kuro. This is with all enhancements turned off of course for motion enhancement etc.
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post #113 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:45 PM
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Well, you guys twisted my arm. I just ordered a TC-P65VT60. I already have a a 65ST50, a 65S2, and a 58PZ700U, so I'm already a huge Panasonic plasma fan, and each newer model has bested my expectations -- hopefully the VT60 will continue that trend!

I have a 50S2. How does your S2 compare to your ST? I am debating about opting for an ST if I can't get a VT. This would be a full replacement with the S2 being sold off to a friend.




With OLED on its way in, I almost wonder if we could see a small renessance of Plasma sales. They will be if you will the "poor mans" OLED alternatiave until OLED can get price competitive with similar or better IQ. With Plasma being similar and the closest too OLED, maybe Panasonic is getting out too early?

It will be interesting to see what happens to their plasma plants. Will someone buy and continue making them? Or repurpose the plant? What? Would have been sweet if Panasonic just spun their Plasma division into a seperate company and sell so much stake in it. Until OLED can be all and replace all, Plasma is still a niche market, and there is always money to be made in niche markets. Take what share LG and Samsung were getting instead of giving your share up.
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post #114 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:56 PM
 
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graphicguy, you're not counting OLEDs which can be bought currently, however. Supposedly they have enarly perfect emasurements across the board for black elvel, color accuracy, nearly instantaneous refreshing, etc.
3 times (or more) the cost, curved, and available only at 55". wink.gif
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post #115 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 02:58 PM
 
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Vinnie, I agree with you, overall the zt60 is an improvement on the 9G kuros except for 1 glaring flaw (least in my eyes). The way the Kuro handles motion is very natural.....Panasonic....not so much, I've tried all the different frequencies and cannot make it look as natural as the Kuro handles motions/pan shots. Amazing tv though the zt60 is.....just have to wait till I get mine calibrated properly.....
Like Murray observed, the motion seems rather equitable to me. Could it be the larger size is causing you to be more susceptible to 24p motion judder? What was the size of your Kuro?
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post #116 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 03:25 PM
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I have a 50S2. How does your S2 compare to your ST? I am debating about opting for an ST if I can't get a VT. This would be a full replacement with the S2 being sold off to a friend.




With OLED on its way in, I almost wonder if we could see a small renessance of Plasma sales. They will be if you will the "poor mans" OLED alternatiave until OLED can get price competitive with similar or better IQ. With Plasma being similar and the closest too OLED, maybe Panasonic is getting out too early?

It will be interesting to see what happens to their plasma plants. Will someone buy and continue making them? Or repurpose the plant? What? Would have been sweet if Panasonic just spun their Plasma division into a seperate company and sell so much stake in it. Until OLED can be all and replace all, Plasma is still a niche market, and there is always money to be made in niche markets. Take what share LG and Samsung were getting instead of giving your share up.

I think this is exactly the point though. Panasonic doesn't want their low price TV's to be better than their high price TV's. I can only assume Panasonic will have some OLED's to market soon, and they want ppl to buy those, not plasmas for a fraction of the price.

this is why I also assume LG and Samsung will quickly abandon their plasma lines once Panasonic definitively leaves that market. no sense in competing with your own company
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post #117 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Like Murray observed, the motion seems rather equitable to me. Could it be the larger size is causing you to be more susceptible to 24p motion judder? What was the size of your Kuro?

Quite possibly, my 151 FD is 60".....I know this is not my imagination @ least because I go back and forth between the setups frequently (I have 2 seaton submersives with the ZT60 setup 65") and I use my Kuro setup in my bedroom retreat when the kids are sleeping. Done a lot of back and forth comparisons during Game of Thrones marathon. But to me, the way the kuro handles the motion from 24hz material seems much more natural than the interpolation techniques on the panasonic. Maybe Jeff could help me out with some settings when he drops by to improve. Everything else though....I'd give the nod to the ZT60.....but just a nod, shows how amazing the 9G Kuros really are.
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post #118 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 05:55 PM
 
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Vinnie, I know, but still technically the best. Just not the best at x size. By the same token I could say without a doubt the 111 is the best tv ever because these pannys don't come in 50 and the 101 isn't technically a tv.

As for motion, I haven't seen really any, or hardly any, tv that looks natural to me. The 111fd I have been using seems pretty jerky. Although I am talking about non-24hz material. I don't even remember if I closely examined motion on a blu ray. But on the normal cable tv and whatnot it seems all jittery.
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post #119 of 475 Old 10-11-2013, 07:18 PM
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3 times (or more) the cost, curved, and available only at 55". wink.gif

by this time next year that can change radically.

I am going to have my Sammy DLP repaired, 440 is not a bad price for a few more years. Waiting to see what Panny shows off with OLED and see how prices fare in 14
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post #120 of 475 Old 10-12-2013, 06:50 AM
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graphicguy, you're not counting OLEDs which can be bought currently, however. Supposedly they have enarly perfect emasurements across the board for black elvel, color accuracy, nearly instantaneous refreshing, etc.

Do yourself a favor and see if you can get a retailer to put an OLED, 4K, and a VT60 side by side, playing the same content, and tell me if you see noticeable differences? I tried this at HHgregg when I was looking at different TVs. Can't remember where the content came from, but it was meant for a Sony 4K TV. Personally, I couldn't really make a definitive decision.

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