Am I missing something? (plasma black levels) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 11:27 AM
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You want blacks that look like they're off? Put a light behind the TV. Perceived blacks WILL look like this:

*

Yes, that is what I see, with just a low level blue bulb on a lamp. Not the prettiest solution, but you can always spend some money on some LED strips to stick to the back of the TV.

I have a 60VT60 myself, and all it takes to get those blacks you crave, is to put a light behind the TV.

I have been doing this for years (last Plasma was a 65ST30), and it dramatically improves perceived black levels.

The brighter the bulb, the darker the blacks up until you start filling your room with too much light. I like blue because it makes my room LOOK like no lights are on, other than what the TV is outputting.

Experiment by putting a lamp behind the TV, and have that be the only light in the room with the TV. Also, you may have to take off the lamp's cover to get the desired effect, and/or try aiming the light where it distributes around the bezel more evenly.

CAUTION: A light directly aimed at the back of my VT60 (where there are grills) will cause some splotches to actually show up on the screen if you aim the light into the plasma's innards a certain way (only for the duration that the light is aimed in that manner. I aim my light towards the wall, not the TV...

Like everyone else, even the VT60 in an all blacked out room with zero lights and a black screen showing will still have a glow. Trust me, PUT A LIGHT BEHIND THE TV.
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post #32 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post

You want blacks that look like they're off? Put a light behind the TV. Perceived blacks WILL look like this:

*

Yes, that is what I see, with just a low level blue bulb on a lamp. Not the prettiest solution, but you can always spend some money on some LED strips to stick to the back of the TV.

I have a 60VT60 myself, and all it takes to get those blacks you crave, is to put a light behind the TV.

I have been doing this for years (last Plasma was a 65ST30), and it dramatically improves perceived black levels.

The brighter the bulb, the darker the blacks up until you start filling your room with too much light. I like blue because it makes my room LOOK like no lights are on, other than what the TV is outputting.

Experiment by putting a lamp behind the TV, and have that be the only light in the room with the TV. Also, you may have to take off the lamp's cover to get the desired effect, and/or try aiming the light where it distributes around the bezel more evenly.

CAUTION: A light directly aimed at the back of my VT60 (where there are grills) will cause some splotches to actually show up on the screen if you aim the light into the plasma's innards a certain way (only for the duration that the light is aimed in that manner. I aim my light towards the wall, not the TV...

Like everyone else, even the VT60 in an all blacked out room with zero lights and a black screen showing will still have a glow. Trust me, PUT A LIGHT BEHIND THE TV.

I might give this a try!

Going back to my previous post, I do agree that overall picture quality (color accuracy, contrast levels, grayscale, etc) are of course a lot more important in the grand scheme of things than fooling the eye into thinking there is "no TV". However, most of my disappointment stems from the fact that so many reviewers keep mentioning things such as "the set disappeared in a dark room", etc, etc, or things of the sort, when, at least to my eyes, that is not the case at all. But, again, I am truly happy with my VT60. I wish I could afford a second one for the living room now that Panasonic is out of the plasma business... but a 65S60 will be enough there for a few more years (I hope!), until OLED's come down in price.
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post #33 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 11:47 AM
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Let us know what you think. I'm not blowing magic smoke. Because our eyes focus on what's bright... the blacks on good plasmas will pretty much look like they're completely off. Definitely the case with the VT60. When I turn off my TV I can't tell if it shut off other than the red led indicator on the bottom. That's as good as blacks can get...

That being said, the VT60 has some really inky blacks even with no lights on with some content counteracting the blacks... like a good wallpaper that has a solid black background with a bright character/etc...

Like:



With this image, the blacks (with zero ambient/room lighting) will look almost like the TV is off.
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post #34 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I don't understand the obsession with the set disappearing in a dark room, where best in class blacks have the most impact is contrast ratio and ALL of the 2013 Panasonics deliver in that aspect of picture quality. Whether there is a glow is irrelevant to what is being displayed on the screen imo

that's the key part right there. it's your opinion, nothing more.

the lack of this ability has not only been the reason I've not been satisfied since CRT, it's also made me do several renovations and completely change the way I watch. I've been 'forced' to add lighting above/around the tv to fake the effect. I need to use some bias lighting to make the blacks look black. I used to love watching movies in a pitch black room, where nothing distracts you, it's just the image on screen and that's it. the only way I can get that anymore is with my projector. i'm simply always aware that i'm watching a tv. you simply can't get that 'looking through a window' experience when the screen 'glows' around the picture, or you have lights on in the room.

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post #35 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

that's the key part right there. it's your opinion, nothing more.

the lack of this ability has not only been the reason I've not been satisfied since CRT, it's also made me do several renovations and completely change the way I watch. I've been 'forced' to add lighting above/around the tv to fake the effect. I need to use some bias lighting to make the blacks look black. I used to love watching movies in a pitch black room, where nothing distracts you, it's just the image on screen and that's it. the only way I can get that anymore is with my projector. i'm simply always aware that i'm watching a tv. you simply can't get that 'looking through a window' experience when the screen 'glows' around the picture, or you have lights on in the room.

I do have to agree with the above. I miss that "experience" as well.
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post #36 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 01:38 PM
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Shouldn't there be another zero there. I thought blacks on the St60 were 0.002.
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post #37 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteban Medaglia View Post

I do have to agree with the above. I miss that "experience" as well.

don't get me wrong, there's plenty of advantages to plasma, and the case can certainly be made that overall, plasma is better. it's just that I used to love watching movies with no lights on in the room, and there'd be nothing but the image and me. no other distractions whatsoever. and I really haven't been able to get that with any flatscreens I've owned. I either need some bias lighting which adds the distraction of seeing stuff in the room, or you see that 'glow' of the screen.

sometimes I wonder if I replaced my current plasma with a good CRT RPTV, what things would drive me nuts about the crt? you never really know what your missing til it's gone right? I never thought twice about how black was black when shopping for the CRT

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post #38 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 10:42 PM
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I think alot of people mistake the brightness and contrast controls, brightness should be called black level to avoid confusion

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post #39 of 54 Old 11-06-2013, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post

You want blacks that look like they're off? Put a light behind the TV. Perceived blacks WILL look like this:

*

Yes, that is what I see, with just a low level blue bulb on a lamp. Not the prettiest solution, but you can always spend some money on some LED strips to stick to the back of the TV.

I have a 60VT60 myself, and all it takes to get those blacks you crave, is to put a light behind the TV.

I have been doing this for years (last Plasma was a 65ST30), and it dramatically improves perceived black levels.

The brighter the bulb, the darker the blacks up until you start filling your room with too much light. I like blue because it makes my room LOOK like no lights are on, other than what the TV is outputting.

Experiment by putting a lamp behind the TV, and have that be the only light in the room with the TV. Also, you may have to take off the lamp's cover to get the desired effect, and/or try aiming the light where it distributes around the bezel more evenly.

CAUTION: A light directly aimed at the back of my VT60 (where there are grills) will cause some splotches to actually show up on the screen if you aim the light into the plasma's innards a certain way (only for the duration that the light is aimed in that manner. I aim my light towards the wall, not the TV...

Like everyone else, even the VT60 in an all blacked out room with zero lights and a black screen showing will still have a glow. Trust me, PUT A LIGHT BEHIND THE TV.


Bias lighting is always a good idea, I have been doing this since the CRT days

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post #40 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

that's the key part right there. it's your opinion, nothing more.

the lack of this ability has not only been the reason I've not been satisfied since CRT, it's also made me do several renovations and completely change the way I watch. I've been 'forced' to add lighting above/around the tv to fake the effect. I need to use some bias lighting to make the blacks look black. I used to love watching movies in a pitch black room, where nothing distracts you, it's just the image on screen and that's it. the only way I can get that anymore is with my projector. i'm simply always aware that i'm watching a tv. you simply can't get that 'looking through a window' experience when the screen 'glows' around the picture, or you have lights on in the room.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, this forum is pretty much built on people expressing their opinions so not sure what your point is ? You value that experience I don't but I think you would have to concede it has absolutely nothing to do with picture quality it is more a preference in viewing environment.

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post #41 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 04:49 AM
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I realized yesterday that not only is my phone an OLED screen, its a "Super AM"OLED screen.

So it should have blacks deeper than ink in outer space, right?

Wrong. Upon going into a pitch dark room and pulling up pure black images, there is a definite glow still. A very noticeable one at that.

Of course, there are no fine tuning picture controls, but shouldn't it at least be impressive from the get go?
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post #42 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 06:48 AM
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Same here. I have a Galaxy note II with a "Super AMOLED" and an all black screen will have a very slight glow if you're in a room with absolutely no ambient light. Once you have even a hint of light, the blacks become as good as you can perceive.

Same thing with my PS Vita with it's own OLED screen. Soft glow in utter darkness.

The problem I see with OLED is that they can exhibit some green/gray blotches on black screens, losing out on screen uniformity vs the plasmas I have owned with their perfect uniformity.
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post #43 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post

You want blacks that look like they're off? Put a light behind the TV. Perceived blacks WILL look like this:

Like everyone else, even the VT60 in an all blacked out room with zero lights and a black screen showing will still have a glow. Trust me, PUT A LIGHT BEHIND THE TV.

Amen! And thank you for bringing this up. Bias lighting is something all display owners should at least try. I have a 6500k bias light on both my plasmas
and, just as you say, it takes the 'perceived' blacks to an even better level. I know it's not possible for many, but I have a neutral gray wall behind one plasma
in my HT as well, and the difference is convincing. I'm actually considering re-painting my living room that will allow me to paint the back wall behind my other plasma neutral gray as well. In your case (and anyone else), I would suggest you get a 6500k bulb/fixture set-up. If you're going to do it, try and get the
proper bulb. I think it's worth the investment. And believe me, aging eyes (I'm 55) benefit from bias lighting too, more so than younger folks.


Here's a great read on bias lighting:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm
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post #44 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 07:35 AM
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Amen! And thank you for bringing this up. Bias lighting is something all display owners should at least try. I have a 6500k bias light on both my plasmas
and, just as you say, it takes the 'perceived' blacks to an even better level. I know it's not possible for many, but I have a neutral gray wall behind one plasma
in my HT as well, and the difference is convincing. I'm actually considering re-painting my living room that will allow me to paint the back wall behind my other plasma neutral gray as well. In your case (and anyone else), I would suggest you get a 6500k bulb/fixture set-up. If you're going to do it, try and get the
proper bulb. I think it's worth the investment. And believe me, aging eyes (I'm 55) benefit from bias lighting too, more so than younger folks.


Here's a great read on bias lighting:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm

Could you folks recommend a specific bias light model/brand? A link would be most welcome. Thanks in advance!
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post #45 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 08:46 AM
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Personally I don't like the idea of a bias light but this interests me. Looks like it extends the size of the tv. This is something Phillips has on their tv's. It's called Ambilight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU6ToQgTn-k
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post #46 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteban Medaglia View Post

Could you folks recommend a specific bias light model/brand? A link would be most welcome. Thanks in advance!

It's part of the link in my original post.
Go here:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

Also, I bought a 6500k light/fixture at Lowe's for $12.00. Might want to try that first before investing a bit more $$$
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post #47 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 09:12 AM
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I bought one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Antec-HDTV-51-1-Inch-BIAS-LIGHTING/dp/B007TG5EG8/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1383844047&sr=1-1&keywords=led+bias+lighting

Powered via a USB port, but also has an on/off switch. A cheap way to see if you like the effect.


Having bias lightning is also a little easier on your eyes when looking at a large bright object in a dark room.
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post #48 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

I bought one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Antec-HDTV-51-1-Inch-BIAS-LIGHTING/dp/B007TG5EG8/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1383844047&sr=1-1&keywords=led+bias+lighting

Powered via a USB port, but also has an on/off switch. A cheap way to see if you like the effect.


Having bias lightning is also a little easier on your eyes when looking at a large bright object in a dark room.

Thank you! I like the fact that it is USB powered as well. No line noise/contamination, no need for an extra outlet on my power conditioner. I think I'll give it a try. Thanks again!
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post #49 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 11:37 AM
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Bias lighting should not be too dim or too bright in order to get the desired effect of deep blacks. Too dim won't change much from having no bias lighting, and too bright... well it obviously brightens up the room...
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post #50 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 11:56 AM
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I am somewhat amused by this thread. I have never thought to use a bias light, but I also think that black levels are great on the current gen high end plasmas.

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post #51 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 12:14 PM
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I am somewhat amused by this thread. I have never thought to use a bias light, but I also think that black levels are great on the current gen high end plasmas.
+1

BTW, what are people watching that has to be 0% light? People talk about midnight, but go outside at midnight and I guarantee there's some light around. The "shut in a coffin" channel?
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post #52 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, this forum is pretty much built on people expressing their opinions so not sure what your point is ? You value that experience I don't but I think you would have to concede it has absolutely nothing to do with picture quality it is more a preference in viewing environment.

yes, that was my point. agreed. I still think it's very important information, and should not be misrepresented or omitted though. I could care less about a TV's speakers, but you will never find a review that completely ignores them, or says they are superior to a good sound bar or stereo system

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post #53 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

yes, that was my point. agreed. I still think it's very important information, and should not be misrepresented or omitted though. I could care less about a TV's speakers, but you will never find a review that completely ignores them, or says they are superior to a good sound bar or stereo system

No worries I understand your point and perspective, in the end we all value different things smile.gif

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post #54 of 54 Old 11-07-2013, 12:30 PM
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+1

BTW, what are people watching that has to be 0% light? People talk about midnight, but go outside at midnight and I guarantee there's some light around. The "shut in a coffin" channel?

it's nice when the image 'disappears' into the room. it's a very different experience when you can't actually see the tv screen, just the image that's on it. when you've got some detail in the center, and the edges are supposed to be black, it's amazing when you can't tell where the screen ends, and you just focus on the content you're supposed to see, vs seeing the edge of the screen.

it's hard to explain I guess, but if the blacks on screen actually look black, it feels less like watching tv, and more like viewing real life.

btw, not everything in film is outdoors, so there are situations where there should be no light

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