Samsung 2014 H7000 anticipation thread - Page 4 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 403 Old 12-24-2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

We should know all in about 4 months smile.gif

What about CES?
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post #92 of 403 Old 12-24-2013, 09:09 PM
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CES tells me absolutely nothing about the actual performance of the display. Been burned a couple of times, like for them to get reviewed by people like Chad.

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post #93 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 05:55 AM
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Anyone else wanting to see darbee processing available in the G/H 8500?

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post #94 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 06:21 AM
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Nope. Cant stand it, dont use it.

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post #95 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by benz5521 View Post

So it'll be the best plasma ever made.

I had to LOL at this statement.

Black levels in nearly every plasma on the market (with the possible exception of LG garbage) are absolutely stellar. How dark a set can go is NOT determinant to its being the "best". Far more important than just saying how black does it go is how the set performs with respect to shadow detail and greyscale. This is what impressed me about the VT and ZT this year. It's just too bad that those two have such trouble with IR, to the point it almost ruins the rest of the good Panasonic did there.

I for one hope Samsung does not just hit everyone over the head with the blunt force of a black level hammer and focuses on all areas of a significant picture improvement over the F8500, which we also have. All I want is the ZT's out of the box performance with Samsung's phenomenal resistance to IR. I don't even care if the peak brightness goes DOWN from the torch (for a plasma) levels of the F8500. While I would never have paid the silly amount of Samsung was asking for the F at full blown retail, at the Conn's price it was quite a sweet deal for a very technologically advanced set.
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post #96 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 06:31 AM
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They have to fix floating blacks and keep MLL down before I'll bite. Have great MLL with floaters, or not having floaters with worse MLL, is not a consideration for someone who owns a VT50.

As far as IR, I know folks make a big deal about things, but my D7000 was great, mt GT30 was great, and my VT50 was great. I think panel variance comes in here.

Id like to see the new Samsung with stable and low MLL, and 69". Looking at the past few years, I have a feeling I wont get any of that.
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post #97 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

They have to fix floating blacks and keep MLL down before I'll bite. Have great MLL with floaters, or not having floaters with worse MLL, is not a consideration for someone who owns a VT50.

As far as IR, I know folks make a big deal about things, but my D7000 was great, mt GT30 was great, and my VT50 was great. I think panel variance comes in here.

Id like to see the new Samsung with stable and low MLL, and 69". Looking at the past few years, I have a feeling I wont get any of that.

I'm an admittedly... extreme... use case. I work from home and I live with a room-mate so my TV is actually in my room. As a result, if I'm home, it's usually on. Which means it's on or left on A LOT. And typically I'm watching cable networks like HGTV or Velocity, History etc.

Well, with my Sammy F4500 which was a lowly 720P set (with surprisingly excellent PQ), the logos never persisted for more than maybe 20 minutes after hours of leaving it there. On BOTH the ZT and VT (because I had both in house) 3 to 6 hours of constant watching would then leave the HGTV or Velocity logos impregnated for about another whole day and a half of running other material or zooming the picture in. So I doubt it's a panel variance issue, and it's also possible your older series just don't have it as bad. Regardless, it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect it to be at least as good as Samsung's entriest of of entry level plasmas. The F8500 is at my brother's house, but I was there for about a week and didn't have any problems with it, either.
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post #98 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post

Black levels in nearly every plasma on the market (with the possible exception of LG garbage) are absolutely stellar. How dark a set can go is NOT determinant to its being the "best". Far more important than just saying how black does it go is how the set performs with respect to shadow detail and greyscale.

I disagree, as shadow detail and overall depth is largely tied to how deep the blacks can go. As for greyscale, even the cheaper sets with the necessary controls can achieve excellent accuracy. IMO and IME, blacks don't truly start to look transparent (i.e. truely black) until they are below 0.001 fL. and even then there is still something to be desired. I suspect to be 100% transparent in a dark viewing environment less than 0.0001 fL. would be required. In a lit environment, probably less than 0.001 fL. would be transparent (or close enough). The bottom line for me is anything above 0.001 fL. is not acceptable on a supposedly reference display at a premium price such as the F8500 (nor are floating blacks of any kind). Samsung must achieve both or I'm not buying.
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post #99 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 06:50 AM
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I can see that, because with a whole day of College Football the ESPN ticker outline will be on the VT50 for a bit. Not easy to see, but its there. I did not have one IR issue with the D7000, but others did. Thru investigation we found two different panels in the same model, so the thought was that the other panel produced in a different plant was the IR prone model vs. the panel version some of us had.

After the GT30 (0.0044fL with my D3 pro) MLL was not a big issue for me in a dark room. The D7000 was around 0.0067fL but floated which would lead to gray bars, that was unacceptable. I really liked the GT30, and other than calibration control and options, the move to a VT50 was not as pronounced as D7000 to GT30. I measure my VT50 around 0.0021fL. If Samsung could produce a panel that did not float, and was in the 0.002 to 0.003fL range, Id be perfectly happy. I generally feel their panels are more stylish and offer a "sharper" image overall with better video processing. I do not need the new model to best the VT50 black level as long as it is low enough and stable, because once I went lower than the GT30 mll, it was diminishing returns for me. Other than the floating blacks, my D7000 was a really great looking display. To be quite frank, if they hit 0.003fL all the time, and offered 69", id buy one in a heartbeat.


Im keeping my fingers crossed.

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post #100 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I can see that, because with a whole day of College Football the ESPN ticker outline will be on the VT50 for a bit. Not easy to see, but its there. I did not have one IR issue with the D7000, but others did. Thru investigation we found two different panels in the same model, so the thought was that the other panel produced in a different plant was the IR prone model vs. the panel version some of us had.

After the GT30 (0.0044fL with my D3 pro) MLL was not a big issue for me in a dark room. The D7000 was around 0.0067fL but floated which would lead to gray bars, that was unacceptable. I really liked the GT30, and other than calibration control and options, the move to a VT50 was not as pronounced as D7000 to GT30. I measure my VT50 around 0.0021fL. If Samsung could produce a panel that did not float, and was in the 0.002 to 0.003fL range, Id be perfectly happy. I generally feel their panels are more stylish and offer a "sharper" image overall with better video processing. I do not need the new model to best the VT50 black level as long as it is low enough and stable, because once I went lower than the GT30 mll, it was diminishing returns for me. Other than the floating blacks, my D7000 was a really great looking display. To be quite frank, if they hit 0.003fL all the time, and offered 69", id buy one in a heartbeat.


Im keeping my fingers crossed.

Yep, ESPN ticker and Fox Business News lower third will DEFINITELY do it on the ZT and VT. The FBN stuff is real bad.

I honestly don't keep tabs on all the fl stuff anymore. They're all so good that I still believe it comes down to individual processing and the panel's ability to handle fine details. I mean the F8500 and the ZT60 are both considered to offer not far off levels of performance yet out of the box the ZT60 resolves more shadow detail easily on Panasonic's demo disc when compared to the F8500 on the same material. Yes, the F could have been calibrated, but the Panasonics really just do a fantastic job with this. I guess what I'm getting at is in the Kuro thread there are hundreds of pages of these crazy low black level numbers and at the end of the day I still think the ZT60 is phenomenal in this area. Which is why I still think that dumbing a panel's performance to nothing more than how deep the blacks go is an oversimplification of the panel science. To say the panel with the deepest black level will be "the best panel EVER" seems silly to me. I could be wrong, I'm not an engineer, but I feel like black level is getting to the point of megapixels on digital cameras. Hell when I bought my first plasma in 2002, a 720P Zenith, Plasma was amazingly still considered at that point to be the WORST perfoming display technology if I remember right. In fact I still remember the panel on that TV was VERY light grey in color to the point it was very distracting. Anyway, I only know what my eyes have witnessed regardless of the numerical values.

One thing I will not argue with. I did not about this "floating blacks" issue on the Samsungs (if I read right). That isn't really acceptable under any circumstance.
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post #101 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 08:28 AM
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I will bet any money floating blacks is not a hardware issue, Samsung did that in software in full knowledge reviewers would take their readings publish their numbers and seldom make amendments in the light of new information, the same strategy has paid off every year for the past few years and even now nearly everyone is going around repeating full white/full black readings instead of ansi which tells the real story of a panels performance. Samsung have a long history of tailoring things for sales over utility and even with Panasonic gone I still half expect them to continue the charade if only to keep the lie going. I hope they grow up as company and stop doing these kinds of actions but on the other hand why change a winning strategy if you are never called out for it.

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post #102 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 08:29 AM
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I will bet any money floating blacks is not a hardware issue, Samsung did that in software in full knowledge reviewers would take their readings publish their numbers and seldom make amendments in the light of new information, the same strategy has paid off every year for the past few years and even now nearly everyone is going around repeating full white/full black readings instead of ansi which tells the real story of a panels performance. Samsung have a long history of tailoring things for sales over utility and even with Panasonic gone I still half expect them to continue the charade if only to keep the lie going. I hope they grow up as company and stop doing these kinds of actions but on the other hand why change a winning strategy if you are never called out for it

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post #103 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 08:48 AM
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I will bet any money floating blacks is not a hardware issue, Samsung did that in software in full knowledge reviewers would take their readings publish their numbers and seldom make amendments in the light of new information, the same strategy has paid off every year for the past few years and even now nearly everyone is going around repeating full white/full black readings instead of ansi which tells the real story of a panels performance. Samsung have a long history of tailoring things for sales over utility and even with Panasonic gone I still half expect them to continue the charade if only to keep the lie going. I hope they grow up as company and stop doing these kinds of actions but on the other hand why change a winning strategy if you are never called out for it

The positive here is, people like Chad B know and check this. Thats why I wait until he starts getting samples, plus I know from my experience with the D7000 how to check.

If I did order one, Id get it from Amazon so I could return if I wanted to.

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post #104 of 403 Old 12-29-2013, 09:01 AM
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+1 for Chad, if only more people read his work and other reviewers nailed things down just the same we might be looking at a "healthier" market :rolleyes:

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post #105 of 403 Old 12-30-2013, 09:00 PM
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While I'm a wee' bit disappointed by My S60's overall dim picture and motion blurry performance, i'm still clinging it to it soley for the reason that it's the best performing plasma gaming wise in regards to input lag. Had this not been an issue with the current 2013 8500 i would of saved up the cash and went with the 60" incher in a heart beat.

I want the brightness levels, less agressive ABL and motion performance of the 8500, while getting even inkier black levels. I just don't want to have to pay an arm & a leg. but i'm pretty sure samsung won't even beable to get the input lag below the 35ms mark, unless you try using that silly PC HDMI 1 labeling trick wich locks out half the picture controls. And you can count LG out, their sets are plagued with horrible input lag unless something magical happened down at the factory. Maybe their step down model from the 8500 might beable to deliver the goods, but seeing as how big of a departure the step down model WAS from the 8500 i won't be holding my breath. :P
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post #106 of 403 Old 12-31-2013, 01:45 AM
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While I'm a wee' bit disappointed by My S60's overall dim picture and motion blurry performance, i'm still clinging it to it soley for the reason that it's the best performing plasma gaming wise in regards to input lag. Had this not been an issue with the current 2013 8500 i would of saved up the cash and went with the 60" incher in a heart beat.

I want the brightness levels, less agressive ABL and motion performance of the 8500, while getting even inkier black levels. I just don't want to have to pay an arm & a leg. but i'm pretty sure samsung won't even beable to get the input lag below the 35ms mark, unless you try using that silly PC HDMI 1 labeling trick wich locks out half the picture controls. And you can count LG out, their sets are plagued with horrible input lag unless something magical happened down at the factory. Maybe their step down model from the 8500 might beable to deliver the goods, but seeing as how big of a departure the step down model WAS from the 8500 i won't be holding my breath. :P

I'll still take the F8500's PC mode picture over my S60's supposed-great picture control thank you very much. You pretty much throw away much of color accuracy by enabling AGC, so what advantage the S60 would have over the F8500? I wish I could say I don't need AGC, but I do.

BTW, this year was the first time that two generations of Samsung plasmas were sold at the same time. Usually Samsung brings equal PQ performance across its entire lineup with the only black level differenciator being the size. (eg. 60/64 inch ones having better black than the 51 one) The best Samsung plasma for gamers last year was actually the E6500. It had the same motion resolution as the E8000, (which is 1000 lines) same black levels as the E8000, same CMS options and 3D performance, (it was only lacking in Smart TV features) but it had lower input lag than the E8000, making the E6500 a no brainer. Samsung may replicate such lineup next year, you never know. We'll have to wait until the CES 2014 to find out.
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post #107 of 403 Old 12-31-2013, 01:58 AM
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I'll still take the F8500's PC mode picture over my S60's supposed-great picture control thank you very much. You pretty much throw away much of color accuracy by enabling AGC, so what advantage the S60 would have over the F8500? I wish I could say I don't need AGC, but I do.

BTW, this year was the first time that two generations of Samsung plasmas were sold at the same time. Usually Samsung brings equal PQ performance across its entire lineup with the only black level differenciator being the size. (eg. 60/64 inch ones having better black than the 51 one) The best Samsung plasma for gamers last year was actually the E6500. It had the same motion resolution as the E8000, (which is 1000 lines) same black levels as the E8000, same CMS options and 3D performance, (it was only lacking in Smart TV features) but it had lower input lag than the E8000, making the E6500 a no brainer. Samsung may replicate such lineup next year, you never know. We'll have to wait until the CES 2014 to find out.

Just out of curiosity, what are your S60's settings in regards to AGC and BE? The color crushing is a huge blow when you ramp up the AGC. I sometimes settle for 1,

Contrast: 95 (It seems to stop after 95. :P )
Brightness: -2
Panel Brightness: MID
Gamma: 2.4
Black Levels: Light
AGC: 0
BE: 0

I can't seem to find a winning combination when using the AGC & BE. But because the color crushing is more sevre the higher you go i just keep it at 1, but then i keep thinking that i'm sacrificing black levels and i don't know where to set the BE when the AGC is at 1. Seems like going 'above' 1 with the BE darkens certain part of the picture that normally shouldn't be dark.

When the AGC is at 7, it almost matches the brightness of my CRT....But again, the sacrifices just aren't worth it.tongue.gif
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post #108 of 403 Old 12-31-2013, 05:24 AM
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Waveboy

lower your color setting.

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post #109 of 403 Old 12-31-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Just out of curiosity, what are your S60's settings in regards to AGC and BE? The color crushing is a huge blow when you ramp up the AGC. I sometimes settle for 1,

Contrast: 95 (It seems to stop after 95. :P )
Brightness: -2
Panel Brightness: MID
Gamma: 2.4
Black Levels: Light
AGC: 0
BE: 0

I can't seem to find a winning combination when using the AGC & BE. But because the color crushing is more sevre the higher you go i just keep it at 1, but then i keep thinking that i'm sacrificing black levels and i don't know where to set the BE when the AGC is at 1. Seems like going 'above' 1 with the BE darkens certain part of the picture that normally shouldn't be dark.

When the AGC is at 7, it almost matches the brightness of my CRT....But again, the sacrifices just aren't worth it.tongue.gif

What size set do you have again? Have you tried going with gamma at 2.6? I agree the S60 is a bit dim, but not fatally dim as you seem to be saying is your experience.
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post #110 of 403 Old 01-01-2014, 06:32 PM
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I think Panasonic's exit was the worst thing that could happen to plasma lovers. Not because of whether they make better sets or not but because competition just dropped to zero.

With Panny's exit, I don't think the new Samsung plasmas are going to be much of an upgrade from the f8500 if at all. Plasmas have never been a primary concern for Samsung and without any competition from Panasonic, why would they waste all that much R&D on a product that
1) Has already been praised greatly (minus a couple slight shortcomings only in comparison to ZT/VT)
2) No longer has competition and
3) is a dying technology (despite its superiority to LED).
The Samsung plasma is basically going to be the king plasma by default. This is looking at it purely from a business standpoint, they really don't have much reason to pour that much R&D into it.

To be honest I'm expecting cosmetic changes and maybe a couple of tweaks so that it produces some sort of improvement in numbers in the standard plasma tests.
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post #111 of 403 Old 01-01-2014, 06:48 PM
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I think Panasonic's exit was the worse thing that could happen to plasma lovers. Not because of whether they make better sets or not but because competition just dropped to zero.

With Panny's exit, I don't think the new Samsung plasmas are going to be much of an upgrade from the f8500 if at all. Plasmas have never been a primary concern for Samsung and without any competition from Panasonic, why would they waste all that much R&D on a product that
1) Has already been praised greatly (minus a couple slight shortcomings only in comparison to ZT/VT)
2) No longer has competition and
3) is a dying technology (despite its superiority to LED).
The Samsung plasma is basically going to be the king plasma by default. This is looking at it purely from a business standpoint, they really don't have much reason to pour that much R&D into it.

To be honest I'm expecting cosmetic changes and maybe a couple of tweaks so that it produces some sort of improvement in numbers in the standard plasma tests.

The R&D and design of the 2014 Samsung plasmas were probably mostly, if not entirely, completed before Panny's announcement. What you say may apply to the 2015 models though. We'll have to see.
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post #112 of 403 Old 01-01-2014, 11:13 PM
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The R&D and design of the 2014 Samsung plasmas were probably mostly, if not entirely, completed before Panny's announcement. What you say may apply to the 2015 models though. We'll have to see.

Valid point. However, if there isn't a need to push the tech though I would expect Samsung to either scale it back to increase profit or charge a premium if there's significant advancements. I personally liked the f8500 better than the Pannys but the absence of competition is never a good thing for the consumer. You're either going to end up paying more and you're going to receive an inferior product than you would have received otherwise.
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post #113 of 403 Old 01-02-2014, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

What size set do you have again? Have you tried going with gamma at 2.6? I agree the S60 is a bit dim, but not fatally dim as you seem to be saying is your experience.

2.6 is a tad too dark. I think 2.4 hits the mark. And i don't know, it definitely seems fatally dim based on what i'm used to(Ahem, tube TV's)....Today I've been doing some side by side comparisons with both my 60" S60 and Sony wega(2005 model) Trinitron CRT(using component cables) with the same movie(The Labyrinth & Coraline)..... and my god does the sony produce one hell of a picture. The LEAP in brightness makes a world of a difference. The S60 really IS 'that' dim imo....Side by side, it looks flat, dull, dark and lifeless....it's pretty depressing. Thank god there are AGC & BE controls, otherwise i would of given up on this set. if i weren't a gamer, i wouldn't even let the S60 in my home. My sony is capable of some really bright whites, where as the S60's are dirty and dim...

I'm currently tinkering With the S60's Brightness, Gamma, AGC and BE to get a somewhat similar picture to the Sony, Sure i'll be crushing a bit of color detail when using AGC PLUS altering the color including a few other things but i don't care, the s60 is abnormally dim and i just can't deal with it as is, it sucks the life out of the picture. Maybe not for those who have been in the plasma camp for years now, but side it with a good CRT and it's a disappointing pictur. The S60's only pro's PQ wise would have to be it's deep inky black levels, Advance Pro color controls and Wide color gamut which easily beats out my sony's. The Brightness kills this set, and the motion isn't too hot either. I've experienced plasmas with better motion than this.

Also, the DVD version of the Labyrinth is crisper and clearer on my Tube TV than even the bluray version on my S60....The fact that it's an older movie with a mediocre transfer doesn't help, but eh. I like it's 80's movie theatre-like look. Packs more nostalgia than a razor crisp, polished and cleaned up picture for a classic such as this. tongue.gif

I'm crossing my fingers that Samsungs 2014 flag ship plasma can do 35ms or lower of input lag. But somehow, i just don't see it happening. rolleyes.gif
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post #114 of 403 Old 01-02-2014, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

2.6 is a tad too dark. I think 2.4 hits the mark. And i don't know, it definitely seems fatally dim based on what i'm used to(Ahem, tube TV's)....Today I've been doing some side by side comparisons with both my 60" S60 and Sony wega(2005 model) Trinitron CRT(using component cables) with the same movie(The Labyrinth & Coraline)..... and my god does the sony produce one hell of a picture. The LEAP in brightness makes a world of a difference. The S60 really IS 'that' dim imo....Side by side, it looks flat, dull, dark and lifeless....it's pretty depressing. Thank god there are AGC & BE controls, otherwise i would of given up on this set. if i weren't a gamer, i wouldn't even let the S60 in my home. My sony is capable of some really bright whites, where as the S60's are dirty and dim...

I'm currently tinkering With the S60's Brightness, Gamma, AGC and BE to get a somewhat similar picture to the Sony, Sure i'll be crushing a bit of color detail when using AGC PLUS altering the color including a few other things but i don't care, the s60 is abnormally dim and i just can't deal with it as is, it sucks the life out of the picture. Maybe not for those who have been in the plasma camp for years now, but side it with a good CRT and it's a disappointing pictur. The S60's only pro's PQ wise would have to be it's deep inky black levels, Advance Pro color controls and Wide color gamut which easily beats out my sony's. The Brightness kills this set, and the motion isn't too hot either. I've experienced plasmas with better motion than this.

Also, the DVD version of the Labyrinth is crisper and clearer on my Tube TV than even the bluray version on my S60....The fact that it's an older movie with a mediocre transfer doesn't help, but eh. I like it's 80's movie theatre-like look. Packs more nostalgia than a razor crisp, polished and cleaned up picture for a classic such as this. tongue.gif

I'm crossing my fingers that Samsungs 2014 flag ship plasma can do 35ms or lower of input lag. But somehow, i just don't see it happening. rolleyes.gif

LOL. Isn't it funny us CRT fanboys are somehow labeled as LCD fanboys in this subforum? CRTs are not perfect, but they perform exceptionally well when opportunity presents itself. There are pros and cons with every displays, and it's our job to find out which content works best with each displays. Comparing my Sony Trinitron BVM and the S60, for low ABL contents I prefer the S60 over the BVM. My BVM can actually get blacker, but then it doesn't really pop that much. For high ABL contents, I prefer my CRT most of the times. For mixed ABL contents, it depends on source games but the characteristic I would describe my S60 would be 'inky' while my CRT would be more like 'exciting'. Other than contrast ratio and pop, both of my displays have similiar color accuracy. I never felt my BVM is lacking in color gamut compared to my S60. Sony Trinitron BVM has been used by many PS2 developers for checking color that's why it's a match made in heaven for PS2. Even if I purchase Samsung H8500 (or beyond) I will still buy 32 inch Sony BVM.
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post #115 of 403 Old 01-02-2014, 05:15 PM
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LOL. Isn't it funny us CRT fanboys are somehow labeled as LCD fanboys in this subforum? CRTs are not perfect, but they perform exceptionally well when opportunity presents itself. There are pros and cons with every displays, and it's our job to find out which content works best with each displays. Comparing my Sony Trinitron BVM and the S60, for low ABL contents I prefer the S60 over the BVM. My BVM can actually get blacker, but then it doesn't really pop that much. For high ABL contents, I prefer my CRT most of the times. For mixed ABL contents, it depends on source games but the characteristic I would describe my S60 would be 'inky' while my CRT would be more like 'exciting'. Other than contrast ratio and pop, both of my displays have similiar color accuracy. I never felt my BVM is lacking in color gamut compared to my S60. Sony Trinitron BVM has been used by many PS2 developers for checking color that's why it's a match made in heaven for PS2. Even if I purchase Samsung H8500 (or beyond) I will still buy 32 inch Sony BVM.

lol. I'm used to the LCD fanboy remarks. Personally, being a fanboy of any 'TV' technology kind of Takes nerdism to new heights. Plasma & LED/LCD both have their pros and cons, but ultimately i'm just more of a CRT guy. A technology that has been around for YEARS that has had Zero issues with great black levels, & motion,which is still problemetic on any HDTV you buy....I hate that i'm getting a few downgrades here and there when getting an HDTV. Also, in one of your earlier comments you said "Resolution isn't everything" and i couldn't agree more....It should be the least important thing on the list, including Progressivescan, HDMI and Widesreen. Brightness, Black levels, Motion, Color accuracy and color gamut should be the main concerns....And the S60? Fails in the brightness department, and is just 'decent' in terms of motion. What good are super deepy inky blacks when the sets light output makes everything dark and dim. Because of this, the picture looks dull, flat and lifeless a lot of the time, and you can't really appreciate what you're watching or playing on screen. I wouldn't even think of watching DVD's on this set, since they boast an even dimmer less contrasty picture. Toss in the S60's agressive ABL and you're in for one hell of a depressing picture.

I've now set the AGC to 7 and Black extension to 7 and it does wonders to the picture, Brightens it up, gives it pop and a lot more sculpt, making it kind of similar to my CRT but with a picture that's still not as bright, nor are the whites 'white'(they're dirty brown) and i'm getting a bit of black crush, but it's all worth in comparison to the S60's terribly dim and dead looking picture without the use of the AGC. If it's RED push didn't exist, i'd leave the color at 50, but as is i have to belt it back in the low to mid 40's to compensate. The S60 is getting too much praise, it's not as good unless you're messing with the AGC & BE. Seems like Samsungs 2014 flag ship plasma is my only hope. Heck, i'm having a hard time even dealing with the S60's 35ms of input lag. Games don't feel as 'on the dime', quick, kinetic or responsive as they do on my 0ms CRT. Button response means more to me than higher resolution. lol

LED seems more like my cup of tea, but the motion resolution/smearing is completely uneccaptable which gives you DrunkOvision, going far below 240p, it's a disaster. I will never buy an LED EVER again as long as i live soley for this reason. What good is HD if the motion is constantly smearing beyond a snails place as if i'm pissed drunk on my ass. OLED IS my answer. wink.gif

Anyhoo, thank god for the AGC + BE and slew of Pro controls, otherwise i would of tossed the S60 in a heart beat. I doubt the ST60 would of satisfyed me either. It's supposed to be brighter, but it's not THAT much brighter. The 8500 is the only Plasma i'd buy, but it's terrible for gaming. How's the Motion on that set btw? And sounds like the BVM is one hell of a TV. My sony trinitron(too lazy to look up the model) 27" CRT is good enough for moizy, i find that my movie experiences when sitting close to the screen are far more engaging than on the S60(without use of AGC). Perhaps i'm just destined to watch movies on a tube TV until OLED arrives. tongue.gif
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post #116 of 403 Old 01-03-2014, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post


LED seems more like my cup of tea

Not for me anymore. Back when I had a Sony LCD, I thought I would be happy with this set if Samsung/Sony alliance improved on motion performance, but that was more than 5 years ago and things have changed a lot since than.

Comparing my previous LG plasma (PT350, same as what you had. lol what a coincidence) against the Sony, I would give the overall PQ advantage to the Sony because the stock LG had horrible black, ABL and nerfed resolution. (1366x768 would have been perfect. 1024x768 is simply a big fail) However, after I tweaked my LG to have better black and ABL, things have improved tremendously but still not enough to dethrone the Sony which actually had good scaling for 720p PS3 games. 4:6 win for the Sony, final score.

Comparing the S60 against the Sony, a landslide victory for the plasma for low ABL contents, but loses out to Sony in highest ABL contents like Mario games. For mixed contents, the S60 still struggle against the Sony in light output, but more than covers it with its spectacular black level. Samsung/Sony's S-PVA is the LCD type with the best black, so that's really saying something. If our S60 had MLL similar to Samsung F5300, things would not have been so pretty. 8:2 win for the Panasonic, final score. The ST60 will make it 9:1 (Don't even think our S60's brightness output is only a little worse than the ST60. I've seen both, and while no F8500, the ST60 will slaughter the S60 any day any time. The ST60's playing field for light output is more like the ST50,GT50, and the Samsung D8000 while the S60 is closer to the U50,UT50, and Samsung E8000. ) and the F8500 will make it 10:0, so it's not an exaggeration when I say "Once there is an F8500 like product with at least S60 like input lag, I will have no need for LCDs EVER."

Panasonic S60 is a prime example that black level can somehow mitigrate its ABL disadvantage. (LG PT350 simply couldn't stand on its own with such pitiful amount of light output regardless of MLL improvement.) I would never say I don't care for MLL as long as I can get things bright. I NEED both.
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Just imagine if either of you were negatively affected by floating blacks (F8500)...I guess searing brightness dulls the senses to such anomalies. wink.gif That would bug me far more than ABL with the content I typically watch (and in the environment in which I watch...aka as dark as possible!).
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post #118 of 403 Old 01-03-2014, 05:19 AM
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LOL. Isn't this someone who keeps advocating MLL is everything yet tried very hard to justify his beloved darling the ZT60 against the 111FD. (and got schooled by D-Nice wink.gif )

I guess such consistency does suit the F8500's floating black well. wink.gif
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When are we likely to find out what the changes are in the next generation of the 8500?

Monday, Tuesday, etc???????

Will Samsung be displaying at the main CES facility or elsewhere?

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, VideoForge HDMI II, Klein K10A, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #120 of 403 Old 01-03-2014, 10:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

LOL. Isn't this someone who keeps advocating MLL is everything yet tried very hard to justify his beloved darling the ZT60 against the 111FD. (and got schooled by D-Nice wink.gif )

I guess such consistency does suit the F8500's floating black well. wink.gif
Can you quote this nonsense of which you speak, and where did I ever say MLL is everything? Yea, that's what I thought. D-Nice accesses the service menu of the Kuro with proprietary software to beat the ZT60 blacks, end of. Let's withhold judgement on a panel less than a year old versus one that is 5 when it comes to such feats.

EDIT: If you're talking about the meter reading discrepancy (mainly due to rounding and conversion errors) discussions, that is completely a nonstarter.
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