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post #1 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to preface this by saying yes i have done my homework so please don't sick the "search police" on me. I'd like your thoughts on the Panasonic TC-P60S60. Best Buy has it on sale for $998 + Tax. I can also order from ABT for $1,030 OTD. I've been researching quite a bit and from what I've ascertained there simply is no other 60" TV at this price range that compares to this one’s picture quality. Cnet editors gave it a very strong rating. The other one I REALLY like is the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 as it has received stellar reviews. My friend works at Best Buy and I can get this one for around $1,340 OTD...that’s a great deal but still pretty pricey for me. I guess what I’m wanting is the most bang for my buck around the $1,000 mark. The TV will go in our living room above the fireplace. There are 3 windows on the opposite wall however do to our home configuration I don’t believe direct sunlight will be an issue. I initially was looking to purchase LED however it appears that the LED’s that can deliver the picture quality of these two plasmas are well out of my price range.
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post #2 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 07:01 AM
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No one's going to be able to tell you if the ST60's better overall picture quality and features and AR Filter and additional HDMI input are worth the extra $340 to you or not as different people put different value on higher performance (be it cars or TVs or vacuum cleaners).

The advantages of the ST60 is definitely worth the extra cost to me, and $340 isn't a lot of money when you spread it over the projected life of the TV that will be on that wall for the next several years (roughly $5 extra per month if you keep the TV for 5 years).

The only thing the S60 has over the ST60 is lower game lag and a lower price and that's it. The S60 is no slouch, but ST60 is a much better TV in every possible category, and for not a lot of extra money.

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post #3 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

No one's going to be able to tell you if the ST60's better overall picture quality and features and AR Filter and additional HDMI input are worth the extra $340 to you or not as different people put different value on higher performance (be it cars or TVs or vacuum cleaners).

The advantages of the ST60 is definitely worth the extra cost to me, and $340 isn't a lot of money when you spread it over the projected life of the TV that will be on that wall for the next several years (roughly $5 extra per month if you keep the TV for 5 years).

The only thing the S60 has over the ST60 is lower game lag and a lower price and that's it. The S60 is no slouch, but ST60 is a much better TV in every possible category, and for not a lot of extra money.

Thank you very much for your great input i very much appreciate it. Any other 60" TV's you'd recommend in this price range?
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post #4 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

No one's going to be able to tell you if the ST60's better overall picture quality and features and AR Filter and additional HDMI input are worth the extra $340 to you or not as different people put different value on higher performance (be it cars or TVs or vacuum cleaners).

The advantages of the ST60 is definitely worth the extra cost to me, and $340 isn't a lot of money when you spread it over the projected life of the TV that will be on that wall for the next several years (roughly $5 extra per month if you keep the TV for 5 years).

The only thing the S60 has over the ST60 is lower game lag and a lower price and that's it. The S60 is no slouch, but ST60 is a much better TV in every possible category, and for not a lot of extra money.

what would you say are the PQ differences between the two, if you ignore the extra features/AR filter/3rd HDMI input?

I know the ST60 is brighter and has slightly deeper blacks, but what else?


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post #5 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

what would you say are the PQ differences between the two, if you ignore the extra features/AR filter/3rd HDMI input?

I know the ST60 is brighter and has slightly deeper blacks, but what else?

To name a few, but with the understanding that not everyone values these:

Better panel
Better color accuracy
Handles 1080/24P correctly
Better motion resolution - which improves more if you enable motion setting to weak, mid or high eek.gif
Has motion settings for those who like to use them - soap box effect
The S60 failed the 1080i deinterlacing test.
Additional multi-point options for grayscale adjustments
and 3D

Deeper blacks and the ability to go brighter result in a better contrast ratio. Given the first two you mentioned that would be enough for me if the extra $300 as Randy mentioned isn't important to you and you plan to hang on to it for a few years. Very likely that a suitable replacement to plasma (OLED) and the advantages it offers to those of us who value them is at least a few years off in regards to price (and I doubt ever at the cost of either the S or ST) I would buy the highest Panny model I could afford. I never thought much of 3D until I tried it on my VT post calibration, with the right movie it is actually pretty cool. Never say never.

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post #6 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skwerlee View Post

I'd like to preface this by saying yes i have done my homework so please don't sick the "search police" on me. I'd like your thoughts on the Panasonic TC-P60S60. Best Buy has it on sale for $998 + Tax. I can also order from ABT for $1,030 OTD. I've been researching quite a bit and from what I've ascertained there simply is no other 60" TV at this price range that compares to this one’s picture quality. Cnet editors gave it a very strong rating. The other one I REALLY like is the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 as it has received stellar reviews. My friend works at Best Buy and I can get this one for around $1,340 OTD...that’s a great deal but still pretty pricey for me. I guess what I’m wanting is the most bang for my buck around the $1,000 mark. The TV will go in our living room above the fireplace. There are 3 windows on the opposite wall however do to our home configuration I don’t believe direct sunlight will be an issue. I initially was looking to purchase LED however it appears that the LED’s that can deliver the picture quality of these two plasmas are well out of my price range.
That's LED brightness with Color accuracy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMG0V_Cyj04

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post #7 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 10:38 AM
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Torn between two plasmas . . .

Wasn't that a 70's song?

Torn between two Plasmas,
feeling, like a fool,
Loving both of you,
is breaking all the rules.


Sorry, I have had a very hectic day, my first few minutes of relaxation!

Good luck with your plasma decision!
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post #8 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

To name a few, but with the understanding that not everyone values these:

Better panel
Better color accuracy
Handles 1080/24P correctly
Better motion resolution - which improves more if you enable motion setting to weak, mid or high eek.gif
Has motion settings for those who like to use them - soap box effect
The S60 failed the 1080i deinterlacing test.
Additional multi-point options for grayscale adjustments
and 3D

Deeper blacks and the ability to go brighter result in a better contrast ratio. Given the first two you mentioned that would be enough for me if the extra $300 as Randy mentioned isn't important to you and you plan to hang on to it for a few years. Very likely that a suitable replacement to plasma (OLED) and the advantages it offers to those of us who value them is at least a few years off in regards to price (and I doubt ever at the cost of either the S or ST) I would buy the highest Panny model I could afford. I never thought much of 3D until I tried it on my VT post calibration, with the right movie it is actually pretty cool. Never say never.

some of these are debatable:

better panel: too generic for me (it would be more accurate to say much more light output and slightly darker black filter for slightly deeper blacks, which increases contrast ratio)

better color accuracy? the ST60 is better than this? (all dE's under 2, largest is yellow at 1.6)




handles 1080/24p correctly: I'll give you that, in 96Hz mode there is no 2:3 pulldown (though 60Hz mode with 1080/24p includes 2:3 pulldown and as such, is no better than sending 1080/60p to the S60 and letting the BD player do the 2:3 pulldown instead)

better motion resolution: 800 lines vs. 700 lines (60Hz mode) is pretty minor, though motion smoother on weak could help (at the expense of some motion artifacts)

motion smoother not really needed for plasmas imo, but if you like that it could be a benefit

S60 fails 1080i deinterlacing test (in auto): put it in on and it works fine... both CNET and CR.org confirm this

10-pt white balance and 10-pt gamma: probably the biggest improvement here, aside from the extra light output over the S60... but my S60 calbrates very well with the 2-pt white balance and gamma presets alone (some minor improvements to gamma could be a welcome addition, I'll admit)

3D: not a big deal for me, but some like it



to be fair, I'm not saying the ST60 isn't worth the extra 300-400 dollars (it can be more like 400 once tax and extended warranties come into play)... what I'm saying is that it's mainly for more features than improvements in PQ

CNET themselves said the S64 (S60 with AR filter) gets the same PQ/performance score as the ST60... so the biggest difference to them is the AR filter


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post #9 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 01:17 PM
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basically, you're paying for many more features (not all are PQ-related) and a brighter panel with an AR filter

the other PQ differences are quite subtle


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post #10 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I went at looked at some tv's at Best Buy today. I think I'm going to go with a "led" TV as all the plasmas just seemed too dim for my liking. I really like the Vizio e601i-a3 for the money.
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post #11 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

basically, you're paying for many more features (not all are PQ-related) and a brighter panel with an AR filter

the other PQ differences are quite subtle

I respect your opinion but there are a lot of reviews and owners that would disagree. Color accuracy was noted in the reviews I read and CNET as a review site - not in my top 10. As far as I know DNice still owns a ST60 - at least he did when he calibrated my display - take that as you like. As I said I will always buy the best display I can afford and everyone I know rates the S below the ST in regards to picture quality, etc. if $ or lag is a factor then the S works well.

OP enjoy that LED - show room is the worse place to judge TVs and I won't even start a list of why I would never have one for a primary/HT display.
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post #12 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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OP enjoy that LED - show room is the worse place to judge TVs and I won't even start a list of why I would never have one for a primary/HT display.

I'm here to learn please enlighten me
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post #13 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

I respect your opinion but there are a lot of reviews and owners that would disagree. Color accuracy was noted in the reviews I read and CNET as a review site - not in my top 10. As far as I know DNice still owns a ST60 - at least he did when he calibrated my display - take that as you like. As I said I will always buy the best display I can afford and everyone I know rates the S below the ST in regards to picture quality, etc. if $ or lag is a factor then the S works well.

OP enjoy that LED - show room is the worse place to judge TVs and I won't even start a list of why I would never have one for a primary/HT display.

Yeah, CNET's measured color accuracy was quite a bit worse than mine and when I was thinking of buying this TV, I was wondering if those errors would matter. However, my sample of the S60 measures way better than CNET's and is effectively perfect color wise since errors below dE 3.0 can't be seen with actual program material. My main point with my earlier posts is some hear claim the ST is leaps and bounds better than the S in picture quality (not talking about features/options or any other bells/whistles), but in reality the two are more alike than different and the PQ difference is significant but still minor overall. The reason being the whole 1080p lineup this year is quite good and there is a set for every one's budget and viewing distance (S/ST/VT/ZT and 50/55/60/65 inch screens).


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post #14 of 44 Old 11-07-2013, 08:38 PM
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...my sample of the S60 measures way better than CNET's and is effectively perfect color wise since errors below dE 3.0 can't be seen with actual program material .


So did Lee's S60 @ Review.com.


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post #15 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 02:43 AM
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Read my review OP ( its in my signature)


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post #16 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 06:18 AM
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I'm here to learn please enlighten me

LEDs just do not offer great black levels (and remember it is all about the blacks that's why Pioneer was regarded so highly when it was in the business and it is easy to forgot the importance of them until you spend time with a display that does them well), screen uniformity is average at best with LED, you will experience clouding, flashlighting and then more importantly if you watch any sports or fast moving scenes plasma is king - plasma does motion MUCH better. I own a few LED/LCDs, they have their place just not as my primary display. There are other reasons (reliability) to pick plasma as well, but all you have to do is google led vs. plasma and I am sure a CNET article along with posts from this forum, etc. will pop up.

As for the showroom, very few retailers calibrate their displays. Plasma always looks dim in a showroom and usually they are set up incorrectly. The best thing to do is get the plasma of your choice, take it home and try it out in your viewing environment, not the retailers. Set it up as best you can (don't go off the default display settings) and give it a spin for the time that your return window is open. I have a feeling that it won't take long for you to be hooked.

Worse case you take the plasma back - the LED set you want is always going to be there, the plasma isn't. Good luck.

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post #17 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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LEDs just do not offer great black levels (and remember it is all about the blacks that's why Pioneer was regarded so highly when it was in the business and it is easy to forgot the importance of them until you spend time with a display that does them well), screen uniformity is average at best with LED, you will experience clouding, flashlighting and then more importantly if you watch any sports or fast moving scenes plasma is king - plasma does motion MUCH better. I own a few LED/LCDs, they have their place just not as my primary display. There are other reasons (reliability) to pick plasma as well, but all you have to do is google led vs. plasma and I am sure a CNET article along with posts from this forum, etc. will pop up.

As for the showroom, very few retailers calibrate their displays. Plasma always looks dim in a showroom and usually they are set up incorrectly. The best thing to do is get the plasma of your choice, take it home and try it out in your viewing environment, not the retailers. Set it up as best you can (don't go off the default display settings) and give it a spin for the time that your return window is open. I have a feeling that it won't take long for you to be hooked.

Worse case you take the plasma back - the LED set you want is always going to be there, the plasma isn't. Good luck.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the information you've provided me. I agree that showrooms aren't exactly full of TV's that are setup to their full potential. If i can swing it I'm going to purchase the TC-P60ST60
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post #18 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 11:15 AM
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To the OP:

Before making a decision go back to Best Buy and ask to see the remote for both sets. Some LED sets come out of the box in Vivid mode (torch mode) while I believe that the ST60 comes out of the box in Standard mode (as best as I can remember) Standard mode is very dim.

I don't know about the salespeople at the BB closest to you, but I don't believe the one closest to me does more than pull the sets out of the box and mount them on the wall smile.gif
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post #19 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 02:14 PM
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I respect your opinion but there are a lot of reviews and owners that would disagree. Color accuracy was noted in the reviews I read and CNET as a review site - not in my top 10. As far as I know DNice still owns a ST60 - at least he did when he calibrated my display - take that as you like. As I said I will always buy the best display I can afford and everyone I know rates the S below the ST in regards to picture quality, etc. if $ or lag is a factor then the S works well.

It's a shame D-Nice doesn't post here much anymore... by any chance did he tell you in person why he bought the ST60 over the other displays or what qualities he liked about it?
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post #20 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 02:48 PM
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It's a shame D-Nice doesn't post here much anymore... by any chance did he tell you in person why he bought the ST60 over the other displays or what qualities he liked about it?

I hope you understand my response to your question.

It is not my place to speak for someone else, any comments or opinions that DNice had or has about the ST60 should come from him. My post was to merely point out to the OP someone whose opinion I respect greatly regarding video equipment/calibration who had one when I saw him in August. The ST60 is an excellent display, if I was looking for a new display for use in my bedroom it would be my first choice. No fans either smile.gif

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post #21 of 44 Old 11-08-2013, 06:52 PM
 
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I would say the ST60 is what I would get if my head wouldn't be messed up from most plasmas. the only advantages the S60 has are price and gaming lag. The ST then looks much better in a lit room and has 3D as an option. And I believe it has better color accuracy, IIRC.
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post #22 of 44 Old 11-10-2013, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I found the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 for $1,298.30 with free shipping from "East Coast TV's". Anyone have experience with this seller?
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post #23 of 44 Old 11-10-2013, 10:01 AM
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I found the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 for $1,298.30 with free shipping from "East Coast TV's". Anyone have experience with this seller?

I've seen there prices and yes they are very tempting. I'm sure people have had decent buying experiences but from what I've read it's not a smooth transaction. You'll be contacted about up sales, shipping charges and who knows what else. Google there reviews and it gives you a very black and white picture that it's not like buying from amazon, best buy, abt electronics, etc. If you don't mind gambling and taking a chance you might save a little money but it's way too risky for me. There are other companies with much better reputations. Good luck and keep us posted on your experience..
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post #24 of 44 Old 11-10-2013, 12:45 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure many people say bad things about them and Abe's and seems like there's one other. With most of those you just have to be sure and not let them talk you into buying a lot of extra stuff and if you end up with the tv at the price they say, then at least it works out, despite apparently there being some annoyances.
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post #25 of 44 Old 11-11-2013, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I decided to go with my gut and order from a reputable company. I ordered the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 from ABT for $1,399 with free delivery. They also hooked me up with a Sanus VLT5-B1 wall mount for $60. I dealt with Chuck L. throughout the entire process and he was extremely helpful. I need to find a good deal on some 5m HDMI cables! Now for the calibration recommendations!
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post #26 of 44 Old 11-11-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by skwerlee View Post

I decided to go with my gut and order from a reputable company. I ordered the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 from ABT for $1,399 with free delivery. They also hooked me up with a Sanus VLT5-B1 wall mount for $60. I dealt with Chuck L. throughout the entire process and he was extremely helpful. I need to find a good deal on some 5m HDMI cables! Now for the calibration recommendations!

You did the right thing. Enjoy your new set. The CNET settings are working out very well on my set. Not dim at all with nice inky blacks and great shadow detail. Check out Monoprice for your cables.
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post #27 of 44 Old 11-11-2013, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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You did the right thing. Enjoy your new set. The CNET settings are working out very well on my set. Not dim at all with nice inky blacks and great shadow detail. Check out Monoprice for your cables.

Thanks for the heads up on the Cnet settings I'll check those out. I picked up some 15' HDMI cables on amazon for $3.99/ea. I've had good experiences with low priced HDMI cables from Amazon in the past. Researching BR players now.
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post #28 of 44 Old 11-11-2013, 05:31 PM
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All I can say is that you made a wise choice choosing Plasma. Even a mediocre Plasma is better than le/cd and you purchased one of the better ones. You will not regret. I watch a lot of sports/football and nothing beats Plasma in my book.
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post #29 of 44 Old 11-11-2013, 05:54 PM
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I do agree wiht this that the advantages of the ST60 is definitely worth the extra cost to me, and $340 isn't a lot of money when you spread it over the projected life of the TV that will be on that wall for the next several years (roughly $5 extra per month if you keep the TV for 5 years)lh8uQf

The only thing the S60 has over the ST60 is lower game lag and a lower price and that's it. The S60 is no slouch, but ST60 is a much better TV in every possible category, and for not a lot of extra money.I think it helperful to you.:) 

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post #30 of 44 Old 11-11-2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by skwerlee View Post

I decided to go with my gut and order from a reputable company. I ordered the Panasonic TC-P60ST60 from ABT for $1,399 with free delivery. They also hooked me up with a Sanus VLT5-B1 wall mount for $60. I dealt with Chuck L. throughout the entire process and he was extremely helpful. I need to find a good deal on some 5m HDMI cables! Now for the calibration recommendations!

Totally made the right call going with ABT. I've purchased large items from them in them in the past and it's always been black & white with very competitive pricing. We could all probably save a few dollars with some of these other companies but I want hassle free transactions. I don't want to deal with people selling me crap I don't need or being charged for something I shouldn't have been charged for. Then it's just one more hassle trying to get that stuff all straightened out. I'll be buying the P65ST60 very soon and then look into the CNET settings everyone is talking about.
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