S60 vs ST60 vs 2006 Era Plasma - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Everyone,

So I currently own a TH-50PX600U 50" Panasonic Plasma from around 2006ish (768 vertical resolution). It was either the top model or next to the top back at the time.

Now that Panasonic is leaving the market and I've realized that the larger sizes have gotten so cheap, I'm looking to upgrade to a 65". I'm kind of thinking of this purchase as a cheap way to tide me over until OLEDs mature and come down in price.

The ST60 seems like the obvious choice, except for the input lag. I don't think there's any way I'll be able to tell for sure if it will bother me until I check it out, and I don't want to go through the hassle of ordering it and returning it. I am a pretty big gamer.

The S60 is so much cheaper than the ST60, I'm really considering it.

My criteria is this: Is the picture quality of the S60 at least as good as the pq of my old 2006 Plasma? So we're pitting bottom end 2013 vs top end 2006.

If the answer is yes, then it's a done deal, as my current Plasma is definitely good enough, just not as large as I'd like.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks!
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post #2 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 08:53 AM
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As long as you can control room lighting I think the S60 would be superior in Contrast ratio, resolution, color accuracy etc Pretty much every meaningful aspect of picture quality would be a vast improvement. Panasonic has improved their plasma line incrementally every single year and made pretty big leaps the last two years. The only downside I see to the S60 is the lack of an ar filter not sure if you current set has that ?

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post #3 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I'm pretty sure my set doesn't have an AR filter, I don't know if they existed back then... my room setup is pretty good, my ceiling light doesn't reflect off of the tv and the normal reflections don't bother me. I looked at the ST in a best buy and I couldn't tell that it had an AR filter by looking at it (although it was way high up and tuned to look terrible).
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post #4 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:00 AM
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The ST filter is pretty effective but in my room it doesnt serve much use, if you can find an S64 for at Costco that is the S60 with an AR filter might be the ideal choice for you. At any rate I think you will be pleased with the upgrade smile.gif

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post #5 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:22 AM
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The S60 is an absolute mirror - it's horrendous with ANY kind of light / just so you know this ...

Great gaming tv though has a dark picture not a bright TV whatsoever .

I had it for 2 days .

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post #6 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Man, my old Panasonic can go brighter than I could ever want it to be, yet I've been reading about dimness in the recent reviews. Could it be that plasmas are actually not able to put out brightness like they used to, or is everyone just used to the insane brightness of LCDs?

I'd say my old Panny is very reflective but my brain filters it out and I don't notice it when the TV is turned on.
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post #7 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:40 AM
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The ST60 is your TV .....simple as that ....you'll have some lag on gaming but the PQ is to be seen ....IMO it's on of few Plasmas with LED pop ....

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post #8 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:41 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apKaIhInffA

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post #9 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post

The S60 is an absolute mirror - it's horrendous with ANY kind of light / just so you know this ...

Great gaming tv though has a dark picture not a bright TV whatsoever .

I had it for 2 days .

You don't even make sense. You bought the S60 and gloated about how great a price you got and how happy you were. Then you found out it had burn in from being on ESPN and returned it, and you were upset that you had to return such a great TV only because of burn in. Now, you love the ST60 and the S60 isn't comparable. This all happened within the last week or so.
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post #10 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apKaIhInffA

RicFlair, have you seen an S60 in person for comparison? Just wondering.

Everyone, I appreciate all of these comments! Thank you very much!
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post #11 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slateX View Post

RicFlair, have you seen an S60 in person for comparison? Just wondering.

Everyone, I appreciate all of these comments! Thank you very much!

Read the above post, he is basically completely schizophrenic when it comes to these 2 TVs.

Judging by the fact that you play games heavily and are ok with the brightness / reflection of your older Panasonic plasma, I would save the money and get the S60.

If you don't really play games that depend on lag (things like fighting games, first person shooters, rhythm games etc), then the ST60 will offer better picture quality if the price difference isn't an issue for you.
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post #12 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:57 AM
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Can't speak to the S60 but the ST60 can get pretty bright more than enough for any moderately lit room in my experience. The S60 doesnt get quite as bright but probably still sufficient. ABL(auto brigtness limiter) has become more prominent since 2006 but I think you will be fine unless it is going in a very bright room.

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post #13 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 09:57 AM
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Yes I had the S60 & loved it ....there was burn in bc I bought it open box ....

However the ST60 is a superior in PQ ....

The S60 as I stated in a previous thread like the Sammy F5300 is an absolute mirror - if you can deal with reflections then fine....I was willing to deal with it BECAUSE - the price was unreal and the gaming the BEST I've ever seen ....


Clarified for ass_theory? ok good.

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post #14 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 01:53 PM
 
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post #15 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slateX View Post

Man, my old Panasonic can go brighter than I could ever want it to be, yet I've been reading about dimness in the recent reviews. Could it be that plasmas are actually not able to put out brightness like they used to, or is everyone just used to the insane brightness of LCDs?

I'd say my old Panny is very reflective but my brain filters it out and I don't notice it when the TV is turned on.

Yes, I have some thoughts on this, and that is that I do think newer plasmas do not put out brightness like they used to. I am in a similar situation as you, except that my old plasma died and had to be replaced. It was a Toshiba 50HP66 which I got in, I think, 2007. That Toshiba got really bright(without blowing out the whites and faces) and had the ability to produce a very contrasty picture, which I liked. Incidentally, about four years ago I also installed a 55" Panasonic plasma at my parents house, the model number of which I cannot remember. But it gets really bright and can do a contrasty picture.

Well, fast forward to now. I just bought a Panasonic 60S60, based on reviews here and elsewhere, to replace the Toshiba. Compared to my old Toshiba, it's just dim looking. After about a week of trying every setting I could find on AVS, I have been unable to get a satisfying picture out of it, and I am sending it back to Amazon. I also can't tolerate the dimming it does whenever a TV station puts up a white information bar across the bottom or side of the screen. I don't recall the Toshiba doing that.

My problem now is to try to figure out if the ST60 series, or maybe even a Samsung plasma, is going to be bright enough, or am I going to have to go to LED to get the look I want. These new LEDs don't look that bad to me.

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post #16 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 11:17 PM
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Seems like a lot of the plasmas from the past couple years or so have been getting dimmer for whatever reasons. I have an old Samsung pn50a450 and I can't ever remember seeing the screen noticeably dim on bright content like my panasonic 50u50 does, noticed my sisters somewhat newish samsung plasma dimming on bright content as well. The samsung F8500 seems to clear that up though.
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post #17 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 11:40 PM
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The ST60 gets plenty bright.

I have owned the 50" ST60 and use it exclusively for gaming and sports... Unbelievable set. Input lag is completely overstated and is negligible. I am a hard core gamer and it has little if no impact on my gaming experience.
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post #18 of 28 Old 11-07-2013, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabois09 View Post

The ST60 gets plenty bright.

I have owned the 50" ST60 and use it exclusively for gaming and sports... Unbelievable set. Input lag is completely overstated and is negligible. I am a hard core gamer and it has little if no impact on my gaming experience.
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post #19 of 28 Old 11-08-2013, 02:48 AM
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OP read my review ( its in my signature)

The ST60 gets plenty bright

Not as bright as my parents 3-4yo Plasma at 100% white, but with mixed content its brighter. This has to do with the ABL (automatic brightness limiter) used in newer plasma sets to decrease heat/increase longevity/save energy... That and my parents old plasma is like 3-4 inches thick haha.
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post #20 of 28 Old 11-08-2013, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

OP read my review ( its in my signature)

The ST60 gets plenty bright

Not as bright as my parents 3-4yo Plasma at 100% white, but with mixed content its brighter. This has to do with the ABL (automatic brightness limiter) used in newer plasma sets to decrease heat/increase longevity/save energy... That and my parents old plasma is like 3-4 inches thick haha.

You nailed the problem. My Toshiba plasma was also about 5 inches deep(not sure what that has to do with anything), and I never noticed much ABL effect from it. I just can't seem to tolerate all the dimming and brightening that goes on with these new plasmas. I understand the new ones might last longer and be more energy efficient, but I'm not even convinced of AGW, don't care if the energy rating is worse than LED, and I'd be happy if they just lasted around 10 years, since I'd probably be looking to buy newer technology at that point anyway.

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post #22 of 28 Old 11-08-2013, 08:26 AM
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I can comment on my 2007 TH-58PZ750U versus the ST60. Both have been calibrated and the short story is the ST60 is hands down a better TV.

The ST60 is Slimmer, better colors, deeper blacks, better contrast. All around my 750U is a relic of another era compared to the ST60. Watching the same source material on the two really puts my 750U to shame. In bright and colorful material I feel the 750U still holds up well except the reds on the 750U have an orange tinge to them compared to the ST60. However, the area it falls down is in terms of contrast. I did not notice the level of black crush on the 750U on dark source material until I compared it to the ST60. The 750U lost so much detail in dark material due to blacks being crushed that I can barely watch some shows and movies now that I am aware of it. Perhaps the only area the ST60 may not be as good as the 750U is the input lag but I stopped gaming on my TVs a few years ago so I cannot really comment there. Overall, the ST60 is such a better display that it is not comparable.
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post #23 of 28 Old 11-08-2013, 10:16 PM
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Just took a look at my parents Plasma an turns out it's a Panasonic pz850u (flag ship model) so I did some googling

The pz850u has similar brightness levels as the st60 (30 ftls, 18ftls at 100% white) In comparison the s60 drops down to 11ftls at 100% white)

That said I agree with Phatal One, the st60 and S60 both have superior black levels
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post #24 of 28 Old 11-09-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Just took a look at my parents Plasma an turns out it's a Panasonic pz850u (flag ship model) so I did some googling

The pz850u has similar brightness levels as the st60 (30 ftls, 18ftls at 100% white) In comparison the s60 drops down to 11ftls at 100% white)

That said I agree with Phatal One, the st60 and S60 both have superior black levels

both the S60 and ST60 can go well past 30 fL for a medium sized window (10% to 12%)

your figures for full white fields are correct, though
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post #25 of 28 Old 11-09-2013, 01:41 PM
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Those numbers were reported by the same website, I think they use a 50% pattern, but it doesn't really matter as long as they are using the same methods the comparison is equal. The key is that the st60 had similar brigtness to a 2008 panel that uses way more energy and is about 2.5x as thick which is pretty damn impressive.
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post #26 of 28 Old 11-10-2013, 01:31 PM
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I don't know how close the s60/s64 is to the st60, but I would say the st60 is slightly better(at worst equal to) the vt50.

so in short, the st60 is better than every tv made before it(pre 2013) other than the best kuros. I would absolutely recommend buying a plasma this year so you can wait until you want to buy an oled.
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post #27 of 28 Old 11-11-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay guys, I have seen an ST60 in both a Best Buy and a Sears. And today I saw an S60 and an ST60 in the same store. Below are two photos I took of the TV's.
At Best Buy the ST60 looked pretty pale compared to the other plasmas but I chalked it up to BB "tuning" the individual units. But at Sears I had access to the remotes and I put both the TVs in Vibrant mode and maxed the brightness.

Even after that, both of them looked pale and dim compared to the samsung plasmas that were right next to them. I know that it will be hard to judge because everyone here is seeing this through their own monitors, but both photo's below have "white" parts which looked considerably grey in the store. Could it be that the color temperature was cool2? Are the owners here happy with the white levels they get?

The two TVs in Sears were at right angles to each other, but I captured a reflection of the same ceiling light in both of them. I'd say the ST60 reduces the reflection by 1/3 to 1/2.

I have read that the ST60's filter makes things look worse from a low viewing angle... unfortunately I haven't been able to find a display model of one of these that isn't above my head.

The blacks were definitely darker in the ST60 and I could say the reds were more vibrant. Scrolling text on the ST60 looked smoother. I couldn't find game mode on the ST60, but I've heard that doesn't do much for input lag anyway.

S60


ST60
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post #28 of 28 Old 11-11-2013, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slateX View Post

Okay guys, I have seen an ST60 in both a Best Buy and a Sears. And today I saw an S60 and an ST60 in the same store. Below are two photos I took of the TV's.
At Best Buy the ST60 looked pretty pale compared to the other plasmas but I chalked it up to BB "tuning" the individual units. But at Sears I had access to the remotes and I put both the TVs in Vibrant mode and maxed the brightness.

Even after that, both of them looked pale and dim compared to the samsung plasmas that were right next to them. I know that it will be hard to judge because everyone here is seeing this through their own monitors, but both photo's below have "white" parts which looked considerably grey in the store. Could it be that the color temperature was cool2? Are the owners here happy with the white levels they get?

The two TVs in Sears were at right angles to each other, but I captured a reflection of the same ceiling light in both of them. I'd say the ST60 reduces the reflection by 1/3 to 1/2.

I have read that the ST60's filter makes things look worse from a low viewing angle... unfortunately I haven't been able to find a display model of one of these that isn't above my head.

The blacks were definitely darker in the ST60 and I could say the reds were more vibrant. Scrolling text on the ST60 looked smoother. I couldn't find game mode on the ST60, but I've heard that doesn't do much for input lag anyway.

S60


ST60


You can not compare these sets in the vivid mode. When viewing different TV's on display, I usually try to calibrate both sets in the cinema mode, getting them as close as I can in terms of picture quality. Since the ST60 has a filter, black levels will look considerably darker in a very bright room. Under dimmer lighting conditions, based on measurements, they should be very close. Higher peak brightness, less color banding and slightly better shadow detail is what really distinguishes the ST from the S.

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