ST60 vs. ST50: Will I notice the ST60's higher input lag? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I have opportunities to buy both a P55ST50 and P60ST60 at what I think are very good prices. My preference is for the newer, larger panel, especially now that Panasonic is done producing PDPs.

I do game, however, and that comprises maybe 25% of my viewing. I do not play competitive online multiplayer and generally haven't even bothered to switch my other plasmas (Pioneer 500M and a Panasonic P50GT25, which I recently sold) into "game" mode to lower the input lag. I do enjoy FPSs and other games that involve quick reaction time, but mostly play single player or local multiplayer/co-op.

One review reported the ST50 lag at one frame (16ms). I'm not sure it's that low, but it is low. Meanwhile, the ST60 reportedly has as much as ~ 75ms of lag.

I suppose only I can decide what's acceptable, though I think I've accepted a wide range of possible values for input lag in the past without much complaint, if any.

If I do encounter a situation where the input lag was unbearable, I could always switch to the 500M, which I believe has around 45-50ms of lag.

Any thoughts on this situation? Am I correct in thinking that if I haven't even troubled myself to lower input lag by switching to game mode on other displays, the 75ms of lag on the ST60 shouldn't be bothersome?

To be honest, I'm just as worried that that silly chrome trim on the ST60 will bother me (not kidding).
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post #2 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 12:30 PM
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That's difficult to answer because everyone's sensitivity to input lag differs. The difference between the ST50 and ST60 is probably noticeable to most gamers, but depending on the person, that difference can either be small or big. Judging by your post, I think you'll be fine, but that's just a guess.
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post #3 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 12:31 PM
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Simple answer: no.
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post #4 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses.

I think what I'm going to do is measure the lag through the signal chain that I've been using and see how that compares to the ST60's ~ 73ms.

That chain, for reference, is: Xbox 360 -> Key Digital powered 1x2 HDMI distribution amp -> Onkyo TX-SR508 -> Pioneer KRP-500M (on pure mode).

I've actually wondered how much lag (if any) the distribution amp and receiver add to the equation, so I'll try to test that, too.
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post #5 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what I came up with for lag for the Pioneer KRP-500M using the flatpanels.dk flash-based input lag test and my 17" Macbook Pro:
Chain Picture mode Average Max Min
laptop -> dist. amp -> receiver -> 500M Pure 44ms 54ms 32ms
laptop -> dist. amp -> receiver -> 500M Game 43ms 51ms 33ms
laptop -> receiver -> 500M Game 43ms 51ms 32ms
laptop -> 500M Game 36ms 50ms 31ms
laptop -> 500M Pure 34ms 34ms 34ms

I'm calculating the difference versus the laptop's LCD, BTW, in case that isn't clear. I don't readily have a CRT to compare to. Assuming the Macbook has approximately one 60Hz frame (16ms) of inherent lag, then the full signal chain's lag is ~ 60ms.

The distribution amp appears to add no lag, as I would expect. The receiver may or may not add lag, since the min/max both with and without it is the same, though the average drops. BTW, I'm convinced that I could get a ~ 50ms result on the test of that final row if I captured enough samples. I gave up at three shots since the results were looking so similar. Interestingly, game mode/game pref on the 500M doesn't seem to reduce lag.

So, where does that leave me, knowing that I have no issues with an estimated 60ms of lag? I think the extra frame, roughly, of lag on the ST60 is probably not going to be dramatically different than what I'm used to. Thoughts?

I realize I'm making a pretty big assumption about how much lag is inherent in the Macbook I used as a reference. That could alter the results dramatically. Also, is the lag consistent between both outputs (to the internal LCD and the Mini Displayport out)? Could it, essentially, be zero, such that the output signal is entirely "in sync" with the internal LCD? I really don't know. There is certainly some pixel response lag inherent to the LCD, but that is likely to be fairly insignificant.
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post #6 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 05:09 PM
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I'm in the same boat. I do like FPS games, but I RARELY go online. That's because I hate people like sMoKINbLUntZ420 or seXypLAyA69 (we all know these types of players) rage non stop, and blame everyone for everything. I might be inclined to try online gaming with friends, but ugh, listening to whining 14 year old kids who are on red bull adrenaline rushes past their bed time, no thanks. Back to the TV though. I wonder if input lag wasn't a measurement, would we still notice? We'd probably write it off as "oh well there's a slight reaction time.... but wow
look how gorgeous this display is!" They're on a 24 inch low ms monitor. We're in out living rooms on a couch, playing on possibly the best TV ever for your money. Is the lag that bad, does it hinder your gaming experience that much that it's a must return for an LCD? Do CoD, Halo, BF, kills really mean THAT much? Someone else in another thread brought up other variables. Personal reaction time, team coordination, familiarity with maps, skill, etc. Not every player is a pro. Combine that with your wife nagging you to fix the shower head now "because it's just a game, you can pause it", kids screaming for juice, the dog begging to go outside, phone calls, UPS at the door waiting for a signature, hell anything REAL life related if you're not an isolationist, will affect you.

Growing up we didn't have the internet. We had Game Pro and EGM magazines. If we wanted to rent a game, the first few parents to the video store won and got the newest release for the next 3 days. Almost the same with buying games. No video reviews, or in depth break downs. It was 3 paragraphs on page 49 with 3 small pictures and score with a little blurb. We didn't say ewww to an 8.7 with sometimes clunky AI, PASS! Maybe I'm just an old fart now. Gaming culture changed fast. It was a fun way to break up a boring night, not a second job. Just like plasma vs LCD. Every year average families go to Best Buy and wing their new TV selection on a Sunday afternoon. You know what? They're probably happy with their purchase too. Maybe they chose a plasma? Maybe their raving about how good it looks, and how good their gaming experience is. They're not thinking of boxing it back up because they get a frame or 2 of lag.

I'm sort of rambling here (this post isn't directed at anyone on the forums) but they're just my thoughts on the subject.
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post #7 of 22 Old 11-16-2013, 09:37 PM
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Simple answer if you're a gamer: yes.

Especially shooters.
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post #8 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post

Simple answer if you're a gamer: yes.

Especially shooters.

would it matter in single player modes of shooters like Killzone Shadow Fall on the PS4 (runs at 1080p, 30fps)?
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post #9 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 01:24 PM
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I've been playing Killzone Shadow Fall on a 60st60. As I casual gamer I can't tell the difference.
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post #10 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 01:50 PM
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Input lag feels like heavyness controlling things, some people might not even notice it and honestly you'll probably end up getting used to it. Occasionally you'll get killed online or even single player and not quite know why.

If you have another HDTV turn off and on game mode and see the difference, it's probably going to be a bit less than what game mode off is on the ST60.
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post #11 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg83 View Post

I'm in the same boat. I do like FPS games, but I RARELY go online. That's because I hate people like sMoKINbLUntZ420 or seXypLAyA69 (we all know these types of players) rage non stop, and blame everyone for everything. I might be inclined to try online gaming with friends, but ugh, listening to whining 14 year old kids who are on red bull adrenaline rushes past their bed time, no thanks. Back to the TV though. I wonder if input lag wasn't a measurement, would we still notice? We'd probably write it off as "oh well there's a slight reaction time.... but wow
look how gorgeous this display is!" They're on a 24 inch low ms monitor. We're in out living rooms on a couch, playing on possibly the best TV ever for your money. Is the lag that bad, does it hinder your gaming experience that much that it's a must return for an LCD? Do CoD, Halo, BF, kills really mean THAT much? Someone else in another thread brought up other variables. Personal reaction time, team coordination, familiarity with maps, skill, etc. Not every player is a pro. Combine that with your wife nagging you to fix the shower head now "because it's just a game, you can pause it", kids screaming for juice, the dog begging to go outside, phone calls, UPS at the door waiting for a signature, hell anything REAL life related if you're not an isolationist, will affect you.

Growing up we didn't have the internet. We had Game Pro and EGM magazines. If we wanted to rent a game, the first few parents to the video store won and got the newest release for the next 3 days. Almost the same with buying games. No video reviews, or in depth break downs. It was 3 paragraphs on page 49 with 3 small pictures and score with a little blurb. We didn't say ewww to an 8.7 with sometimes clunky AI, PASS! Maybe I'm just an old fart now. Gaming culture changed fast. It was a fun way to break up a boring night, not a second job. Just like plasma vs LCD. Every year average families go to Best Buy and wing their new TV selection on a Sunday afternoon. You know what? They're probably happy with their purchase too. Maybe they chose a plasma? Maybe their raving about how good it looks, and how good their gaming experience is. They're not thinking of boxing it back up because they get a frame or 2 of lag.

I'm sort of rambling here (this post isn't directed at anyone on the forums) but they're just my thoughts on the subject.
That's some great perspective on the issue. I don't have a family, so perhaps I'm free to obsess a bit more than most of us (for all the good it does me).

I'm very grateful for what I have and I'm really happy with how display technology and graphics technology have improved over the course of my lifetime. I also like making purchases that I can be happy with for a couple years. My Kuro has definitely fit into that category. I expect a 2013 Panasonic plasma to deliver the same sort of long-term contentedness. OLED may be better, but it's a long way from being nearly as affordable. I mean, a 60" TV that got five stars from CNET for under $1k? Are you kidding me? I will take that deal all day long. I don't need CNET to tell me what to buy (nor do any of us at AVS Forum), though I do respect Katzmaier as a reviewer. OLED longevity is also an open question, whereas plasma is well proven.

That we're down to talking about marginal differences in input lag demonstrates how refined these displays have become. They simply do not impress in a Best Buy type showroom environment, so I tend to understand how they've failed to turn consistent profits.
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post #12 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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After researching this issue more, it seems that you can reduce the input lag to around 50ms by adjusting various settings:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

Well here are my preliminary results from my lag time tests:

I ran 50 iterations of the Human Benchmark Reaction Time Test. Unless noted otherwise, all tests on the ST60 were run with MPEG NR - OFF, Motion Smoother - OFF, and Video NR - LOW.

Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 275ms
Known Input lag - 24ms
My Estimated lag - 251ms

Tests
Test 1: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct On - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 347.0ms - Est. Display Lag 96.0ms
Test 2: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 322.5ms - Est. Display Lag 71.5ms
Test 3: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 320.0ms - Est. Display Lag 69.0ms
Test 4: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 315.0ms - Est. Display Lag 64.0ms
Test 5: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter Auto - Overscan Off - Avg 305.2ms - Est. Display Lag 54.2ms
Test 6: ST60 w/ Test 5 Settings - Video NR Off - Avg 300.8ms - Est. Display Lag 49.8ms

Repeat Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 279.9ms

I ran the 3rd test a second time because my animals decided to provide an unneeded distraction towards the end. Since there is a human and environmental element here I would say the range on these results is at least +/- 5ms and possibly add another +/-5ms b/c of the wireless mouse on my HTPC. I will retest with a wired mouse later but surprisingly paying attention long enough to click 250 times is somewhat fatiguing at the end of the work day! tongue.gif

Overall, I can say I was never able to match my times on the Dell U3011. I achieved my best times with game mode on and my own individual variability may be skewing the results of game mode a bit. At this point, I can say pixel direct appears to be quite intensive in processing requirements. It basically adds the entire input lag of the U3011 to the existing base panel lag. Game mode seems to be hit or miss in my results but I believe it is worth at least 10ms of processing improvement. I still have to finish the Guitar Hero calibration and would like to see if I can eliminate some of my own variability from the results above. The only thing I can definitively conclude from this limited data set is that the display and firmware in its current state has more than 2x the lag of the U3011 (which is not exactly a gaming monitor).

I'm willing to rerun some of these test in case I have some settings wrong or if there are other combos that may yield better results.

Updated:
Added Test #5 to account for pixel orbiter setting and updated Test 1-4 descriptions accordingly.
Reran the control test at the end of the night just to make sure Test #5 results weren't due to better response time on my part.
Added Video NR settings as suggested by Supermandlb
Added Test #6 to test the Video NR setting.
That gives me some hope, though I would likely not choose to disable overscan, since that also disables the pixel orbiter, AFAIK. That was the case on my GT25, anyway. If that situation has changed, I would be quite pleased to learn it.
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post #13 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 09:38 PM
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This had been repeated so many freaking times

1) If you are a competitive FPS gamer then it will bother you (have fun with you CRT's neckbeards)

otherwise you will probably notice a bit of lag, but it will not hinder your ability to play games as you get used to it pretty quickly.

I had no issues playing a variety of games when I compared the S60 vs ST60

OP you are a fool if you pass up on the 60st60 $1000 deal that is currently available because you overthought this.
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post #14 of 22 Old 11-17-2013, 09:49 PM
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There is aiming lag with FPS , it's undeniable and it makes games like COD hard to enjoy.

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post #15 of 22 Old 11-18-2013, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post

There is aiming lag with FPS , it's undeniable and it makes games like COD hard to enjoy.

This. People either have very slow reflexes or are in denial. I tested the ST60, alongside a VT60, as well as an Samsung LED with decent input lag (6300F). The ST60 just could not keep up, especially when playing shooters. You will undeniably get killed off in a game because of the input lag.
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post #16 of 22 Old 11-19-2013, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post

This. People either have very slow reflexes or are in denial. I tested the ST60, alongside a VT60, as well as an Samsung LED with decent input lag (6300F). The ST60 just could not keep up, especially when playing shooters. You will undeniably get killed off in a game because of the input lag.

Not if you just play single player or play FPS for fun = most people here

If you are a competitive FPS gamer then look elsewhere

Honestly how many times does this need to be repeated ?
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post #17 of 22 Old 11-19-2013, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

OP you are a fool if you pass up on the 60st60 $1000 deal that is currently available because you overthought this.
I didn't.
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post #18 of 22 Old 11-19-2013, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

This had been repeated so many freaking times

OP you are a fool if you pass up on the 60st60 $1000 deal that is currently available because you overthought this.

Where is this deal being offered?

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post #20 of 22 Old 11-19-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdogroeder View Post

Where is this deal being offered?

Fry's had the tv for 997 but out of stock most locations and on the web. Some pple have been able to get amazon to price match but the majority have not. I was one of the lucky pple that got the price match today even though there is no Fry's anywhere near me. They didn't ask me for my location so I never told them and they just price matched for me.
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post #21 of 22 Old 11-20-2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stryderlis View Post

Fry's had the tv for 997 but out of stock most locations and on the web. Some pple have been able to get amazon to price match but the majority have not. I was one of the lucky pple that got the price match today even though there is no Fry's anywhere near me. They didn't ask me for my location so I never told them and they just price matched for me.

I had read about that, but like you said it's probably impossible to get that deal now, but thanks for posting.

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post #22 of 22 Old 12-14-2013, 03:42 AM
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Just out of curiousity i'm wondering how the motion blur is for the st60. I got a 5300 Samsung and it has enough of it to annoy me so i'm curious if the st60 handles motion better especially when it comes to gaming

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