Is it worth to buy a newer/last Panasonic Plasma model in order to wait for OLED? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Is it worth to buy a newer/last Panasonic Plasma model in order to wait for OLED?
figo123's Avatar figo123 10:39 PM 11-25-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

4K may be a gimmick, but you can't deny the increased bitrate it will bring. A few days ago, I was running 4K videos on my Panasonic S64 and the picture was sick, sick, SICK! That Chimei demo with a Chinese girl and a lobster was the best! Funny thing is, I actually liked the S64's picture better than Sony X900 and LG 84 inch UHDTV running native 4k contents. Did the native 4K LCDs have better details? Yes. Great enough to cancel out weakness in contrast ratio? Hell no. I mean, even the native 4K LCDs gave me different impressions depending on contents. 84 inch LG TV didn't look too good because of relatively low bitrate, but the Sony one looked great because of far better source. But even on the Sony X900, 4K hollywood movies didn't look that great either, so I felt we need to significantly improve bitrate to benefit both 1080p and 2160p displays.

If the next generation Bluray comes in 100~128gb, has 10 bit and higher bit depth color, lower amount of chroma subsampling, then I'm sold. I would not run native 1080p Bluray on native 1080p plasma anymore and will downscale everything.

 

Yes of course, I mean I completely agree that 4K has more pixels and more video bandwidth but for example Next Gen Blue Rays or such content, I believe it will be simply a small market for some people, yes it is a new technology and it is good to have new technologies, but the market impact will not be as big as the SD to HD impact the market is still having.

 

If I am correct, the world is simply not prepared right now for a new TV format and it is not needed by the way, that is just crazy, the world just made the transition from SD to HD. 



Latinoheat's Avatar Latinoheat 10:55 PM 11-25-2013
Back on topic, Just enjoy your low end 720p panel for another 20 years and don't upgrade. wink.gif
figo123's Avatar figo123 11:08 PM 11-25-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post

Back on topic, Just enjoy your low end 720p panel for another 20 years and don't upgrade. wink.gif


Haha!! You just seem very pissed off  "Latinoheat" !!! Great for me!! Really "interesting" your posts,  Enjoy your "Plasma Heaven"  Hahaha!!!! What a joke!!!


KOF's Avatar KOF 11:40 PM 11-25-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by figo123 View Post

Yes of course, I mean I completely agree that 4K has more pixels and more video bandwidth but for example Next Gen Blue Rays or such content, I believe it will be simply a small market for some people, yes it is a new technology and it is good to have new technologies, but the market impact will not be as big as the SD to HD impact the market is still having.

If I am correct, the world is simply not prepared right now for a new TV format and it is not needed by the way, that is just crazy, the world just made the transition from SD to HD. 

Oh, they are coming sooner or later. If both 1080p LCDs and 4K LCDs are going to be sold at the same price, which ones do you think people are going to buy? Chinese makers like Seiki and TCL are already selling 39 inch one at $699, 50 inch one at $1100, 55 inch at $1500, 65 inch at $2999. That's what they are truly worth right now. The major brand manufactures won't have much time price gouging the consumer for the hottest new bling because increasing resolution on LCDs is a child's play. There will be no further trickery like 'LED TV'. The LCD TV manufactures shot themselves on the foot for playing dirty this way and they are paying for it right now. There will be no luxury associated with LCDs anymore and consumers will demand "cheap" and "cheaper" instead of quality.

As for the broadcast, ATSC 3.0 will certainly happen some time after 2020. But the transition will be so easy because it's not exactly what you think it is. Do you think broadcast companies will all purchase expensive Sony F65? They will simply take current infrastructure, improve compression through HEVC, and will just upscale it all the way. By the time 4K equipments become cheap (and the price of cameras are dropping as we speak) they will then fully move into the 4k domain but they will still be bandwidth restrained and our TV programs will still suck whether it was HD or UHD. So, yes, the transition will happen anyhow.

Panasonic pulled out of plasma market precisely because of that 4k gimmick. What should have happened was to keep original resolution, but improving compression, then use improved compression for improved color, gamut, color space, and overall high bitrate. HD broadcast looks better than SD not only because of resolution but because of improved compression. DVDs look worse than Blurays not because of resolution difference alone, but because of bandwidth efficiency. If an SD resolution was given the same treatment as BD, then the difference would not have been night and day. One day, I was at Best Buy and there was a Sony booth displaying a 4K X900 and 1080p W900 side by side. Sony was obviously trying to make consumers make comparisons between the two. They both were playing same content, just at different quality. The X900 was fed through Sony's media player that can give FAR more bitrate and superior compression than any BD player can. The W900 was only fed through a BD player. I was so mad at Sony for pulling such BS because the W900 is far more capable than what BD source can give. If they both were given equal bitrate at equal compression codec, people wouldn't be too quick to assume the X900 look far better.

However, if you want consumers to folk out money for improved bitrate, this is what you have to do. I may not care about 4K too much, but I do want H265 so badly, and the potential it can give to NetFlix and 4K BD.
figo123's Avatar figo123 12:18 AM 11-26-2013

Thanks for your post KOF, it really contributes to our discussion, good point and I also agree with you by the fact that most people just buy sets for the resolution and if it´s cheap, that is something that might prevent OLED panels to succeed and that would mean that we might be stuck with LED technology for a really long time.

 

Yes 2020+ looks to be an acceptable time frame for a new TV format, and it is interesting to know that 4K might be part of an upscale process so entirely new equipments might not be needed for such goal. 

 

Only time will tell what will happen with 4K in the near future.  Let´s hope for the best regarding overall image quality (NOT resolution alone) contrast, uniformity,colors,etc are far more important than Resolution.

 

But as you said it looks that manufacturers already convinced people that Resolution alone is the most important thing when buying a new TV.

 

It is just a shame that Panasonic, Samsung and LG could not convince people Plasmas were or are the choice for the best image quality. They lacked persistence I guess and they lacked marketing skills as well!


fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 02:25 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

4K may be a gimmick, but you can't deny the increased bitrate it will bring. A few days ago, I was running 4K videos on my Panasonic S64 and the picture was sick, sick, SICK! That Chimei demo with a Chinese girl and a lobster was the best! Funny thing is, I actually liked the S64's picture better than Sony X900 and LG 84 inch UHDTV running native 4k contents. Did the native 4K LCDs have better details? Yes. Great enough to cancel out weakness in contrast ratio? Hell no. I mean, even the native 4K LCDs gave me different impressions depending on contents. 84 inch LG TV didn't look too good because of relatively low bitrate, but the Sony one looked great because of far better source. But even on the Sony X900, 4K hollywood movies didn't look that great either, so I felt we need to significantly improve bitrate to benefit both 1080p and 2160p displays.

If the next generation Bluray comes in 100~128gb, has 10 bit and higher bit depth color, lower amount of chroma subsampling, then I'm sold. I would not run native 1080p Bluray on native 1080p plasma anymore and will downscale everything.

hmm. that's interesting because I've only seen blurays played on uhd displays and thought they looked 'meh'. nothing about the extra pixel count could make up for the use of edgelit LED panels.

I wonder if running a 4k source to a 1080p plasma will yield enough of a benefit to get enthusiasts to adopt the format before a suitable technology(ie, NOT edge-lit led's) is used for 4k displays.

you may be right, that there will be some improvements with UHD that has nothing to do with pixel count. I just think it's too bad we couldn't get those with a 1080p resolution so it'd still maybe fit on a currently available BD disc. there's also already a bunch of 1080p displays that support rec709(I think that's the new one?) so maybe we wouldn't even need to buy a 20k tv to see this.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 02:37 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post

That is pretty pathetic ,What TV do you have? I forgot. That would drive me insane, our HDTV's are meant for HD content not SD. Why upgrade if people don't watch HD is my question?

I'm a plasma guy and by no means think a 4K LCD is better than our flagships 1080p plasmas but I don't hate on new technology. I have seen 4K content and it looks beautiful, I also know that all 4K panels are LCD's right now , therefore they still have LCD problems. As for only being beneficial for screens larger than 100" , you are mistaken, I can appreciate it at 65" for sure. Any smaller and I agree it's not worth it really. If and when OLED becomes more affordable and has 4K, I will definitely buy one and it won't be in 20 years. ( as long as OLED can prove itself).

Here is an interesting article.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/4k-tv-10-reasons-why-you-should-care

cable is coming from SHAW, it's absolutely terrible, but there isn't really a lot of options here. I have a 64" f8500, but I rarely even watch cable. basically I have a pvr in the bedroom that's hooked up a Samsung lcd(d630) and that's the only cable I watch. I DL my tv shows and stream whatever off the HTPC in the main theatre room.

it just really bothers me how they keep raising the prices for everything, because they are doing all these 'improvements' but the SD channels are actually better than the HD ones half the time.

I don't know if this will show up well enough, but this is what a good portion of the 'HD' channels look like.


as for the size at which 4k makes sense. i'll admit, that will depend highly on the individual and their viewing locations. for ME, my 1080p is a window already. it's not possible to look better from my viewing distance. I also run a projector, and while I still find 1080p looks fantastic on 120" from 10-12' away, I can see a need for higher resolutions so when stuff starts to move and drops in resolution it'll still look 1080p good or better.

I am also a little biased, as i'm rather pissed that the market will kill off the best performing TV's(plasma) in order to push a higher resolution, and not at least attempt to fix some of the lcd issues. I mean if the 4k sets were exclusively full array, then I could appreciate that the companies are actually trying to make a better picture, and not just a higher profit margin.

I am also hoping that OLED works out. but I don't care if it's 1080p or 4k. i'll never buy a flatscreen for my 'reference' movie screen anyway. I just need something to handle the daily duties or anything I don't want to fire up a projector for. but then again, maybe oled will actually be that much better, and it'll be worth the construction bill to fit a 100"+ screen into the basement, haha
KOF's Avatar KOF 03:12 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

hmm. that's interesting because I've only seen blurays played on uhd displays and thought they looked 'meh'. nothing about the extra pixel count could make up for the use of edgelit LED panels.

I wonder if running a 4k source to a 1080p plasma will yield enough of a benefit to get enthusiasts to adopt the format before a suitable technology(ie, NOT edge-lit led's) is used for 4k displays.

you may be right, that there will be some improvements with UHD that has nothing to do with pixel count. I just think it's too bad we couldn't get those with a 1080p resolution so it'd still maybe fit on a currently available BD disc. there's also already a bunch of 1080p displays that support rec709(I think that's the new one?) so maybe we wouldn't even need to buy a 20k tv to see this.

I am not talking about upscaling of course. Upscaling brings poor quality because of interpolation that must be done to create new pixels and I do not like it. But downscaling is different story. You're not permanently losing the pixels. The pixels blend giving more details on even lower resolution display. So, for example, if you play future 4K Bluray movies on your F8500, such movies do not automatically become a 1080p BD just because yours is only 1080p. You will also get FAR superior bitrate, same as those playing on native 4k TVs. Sure, there will be a slight reduction in detail because downscaling can only go so far, but the result still will be far closer.

figo123 is not wrong stating he prefers 720p over the 1080p. (I apologize if that's not what you said, figo123) Having used both an LG 720p plasma and 1080p Panasonic plasma, I'd say a 720p plasma still handles today's majority of contents better than the 1080p ones. For the 1080p displays, Bluray is the absolute minimum to enjoy optimal picture. Unfortunately, vast majority of today's contents have less bitrate than BDs, and that's where the 720p displays shine. Youtube for example offers 1080p music videos, but their bitrate is a far cry from a proper 1080p such as BD. Sure, my Panasonic S64 can pixel match those 1080p Youtube videos, but will also get nasty compression artifacts it doesn't even matter whether it's pixel matched or not. My previous LG plasma in comparison, handled Youtube videos with beauty. Because those 1080p videos had low bitrates in the first place, downscaling only loses extremely slight details, but keeps out all the nasty compression artifacts to minimum too. Many people make mistake assuming 720p displays has to choose 720p option, and 1080p display 1080p option. That's wrong. Both displays should choose 1080p. Youtube has a restriction on bitrate depending on the choice of resolution, so a 720p video will have far smaller file size than the 1080p one, they are not equal. Heck, even a regular song with a single picture uploaded to Youtube sounds the best when uploaded at 1080p.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what will happen when 4K videos get mainstream over NetFlix and iPhone. They will simply blow up the resolution to 4K without any regards to bitrate and consumers will be tricked thinking they are getting far higher PQ than what they are actually getting. Fortunately, that's where the H265 comes into rescue. These next generation codecs have twice as better compression ratio, so even the bottom of the barrel will still look much better than what we're seeing today, but bitrate will always remain important and I doubt streaming will reach a point where we wouldn't need a 4K BD anytime soon.

So, my future plan is as follows. 1. Get a 64 inch Samsung plasma wtth proper HDMI 2.0 support. 2. Let the TV downscale 4K Bluray to 1080p.

Even if this method is not attainable, I can still do the same on my Panasonic S64 as long as I use my PC. There may be a future 4K BD player that will properly downscale a 2160p movie to 1080p. Or I can use an external video processor. The choices are endless. I've already seen what the 4K video is capable on my Panasonic S64, and will be anxiously waiting for the 4K BD. A 1080p plasma plus 4K BD combo will be what I will be using to tide over until a 4K OLED gets affordable.
figo123's Avatar figo123 05:39 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I am not talking about upscaling of course. Upscaling brings poor quality because of interpolation that must be done to create new pixels and I do not like it. But downscaling is different story. You're not permanently losing the pixels. The pixels blend giving more details on even lower resolution display. So, for example, if you play future 4K Bluray movies on your F8500, such movies do not automatically become a 1080p BD just because yours is only 1080p. You will also get FAR superior bitrate, same as those playing on native 4k TVs. Sure, there will be a slight reduction in detail because downscaling can only go so far, but the result still will be far closer.

figo123 is not wrong stating he prefers 720p over the 1080p. (I apologize if that's not what you said, figo123) Having used both an LG 720p plasma and 1080p Panasonic plasma, I'd say a 720p plasma still handles today's majority of contents better than the 1080p ones. For the 1080p displays, Bluray is the absolute minimum to enjoy optimal picture. Unfortunately, vast majority of today's contents have less bitrate than BDs, and that's where the 720p displays shine.

 

That's right, I actually watch TV (HD and SD Channels, Movies) on the 42inch 720p Plasma, I simply enjoy the TV for Video Content at 9 feet. TV can also downscale 1080p resolutions.   Plasma is really friendly for SD and HD resolutions.  I prefer watching 720p content on a 720p set than 1080p or 4K set at any TV size, in order to avoid such upscale. I am also aware that 1080p video content is not noticeable at 9 feet away for such TV Size, bitrate is by far more important for video content.   I use a 1080p LED HP Monitor for PC gaming (where the Video Card content is 1080p natively).

 

I will upgrade to a 42" OLED Panel (if they are released!)  and hopefully it would be a 1080p set, I do not want to upscale everything to 4K!


Latinoheat's Avatar Latinoheat 06:25 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by figo123 View Post


Haha!! You just seem very pissed off  "Latinoheat" !!! Great for me!! Really "interesting" your posts,  Enjoy your "Plasma Heaven"  Hahaha!!!! What a joke!!!


What is there to be pissed off about? What makes you think that? You started a thread asking for advice to upgrade now or later, based on your comments, I was simply giving you friendly advice. There's no need to act childish and put other people's setups down, I do really enjoy my setup, thanks.
figo123's Avatar figo123 07:32 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post


What is there to be pissed off about? What makes you think that? You started a thread asking for advice to upgrade now or later, based on your comments, I was simply giving you friendly advice. There's no need to act childish and put other people's setups down, I do really enjoy my setup, thanks.


Well, I do not think that saying "Back on topic, Just enjoy your low end 720p panel for another 20 years and don't upgrade" Is such a friendly advice, so I gave you back the same "medicine", that obviously you did not like it.

 

So next time try to have more respect and be objective, try to avoid judging people's things by saying "low end" or  double meaning words.  I agree that my Plasma is a basic 720p TV but that does not mean that is low end, as KOF  said, it might look better than 1080p Plasmas with 720p content.

 

So let's get back on topic and let's avoid such comments if possible, we are not here to judge if people's equipments are low end or high end, we are trying to discuss what might OLED and future technologies might give us for our enjoyment.


Latinoheat's Avatar Latinoheat 07:40 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by figo123 View Post


Well, I do not think that saying "Back on topic, Just enjoy your low end 720p panel for another 20 years and don't upgrade" Is such a friendly advice, so I gave you back the same "medicine", that obviously you did not like it.

So next time try to have more respect and be objective, try to avoid judging people's things by saying "low end" or  double meaning words.  I agree that my Plasma is a basic 720p TV but that does not mean that is low end, as KOF  said, it might look better than 1080p Plasmas with 720p content.

So let's get back on topic and let's avoid such comments if possible, we are not here to judge if people's equipments are low end or high end, we are trying to discuss what might OLED and future technologies might give us for our enjoyment.

I guess you got offensive simply because I said low end? Well it is, it's the cheapest Panasonic plasmas you can get. It's a bedroom tv anyways so it's not a big deal.
9179mhb's Avatar 9179mhb 09:43 AM 11-27-2013
My "low-end" (2005) TH-50PX50U native 720p PDP still renders a great picture and is my bedroom TV.

While I am tempted to spend ~$3K for a "refrigerator sounding" TC-P65ZT60 or the slightly inferior PN64F8500AF I remain more inclined to hang on to those $ and eventually allocate them to an OLED.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 10:34 AM 11-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I am not talking about upscaling of course. Upscaling brings poor quality because of interpolation that must be done to create new pixels and I do not like it. But downscaling is different story. You're not permanently losing the pixels. The pixels blend giving more details on even lower resolution display. So, for example, if you play future 4K Bluray movies on your F8500, such movies do not automatically become a 1080p BD just because yours is only 1080p. You will also get FAR superior bitrate, same as those playing on native 4k TVs. Sure, there will be a slight reduction in detail because downscaling can only go so far, but the result still will be far closer.

wasn't trying to debate the merits, i'd just never experienced a uhd signal on a 1080p tv, and it never occurred to me that there might actually be a benefit to it. i'm on of those guys that tends to think less processing is better, so a 1080p signal mapped 1:1 is as good as it gets for 1080p. i have seen where 720p sources look better on a 720p display than 1080p sources, but there's not much else going on besides the pixel count there.

i feel like i'm a lot more likely to support '4k' now, with the intent that i would use the superior color and bitrate on my currently 'good enough' in terms of pixel density 1080p displays.
Latinoheat's Avatar Latinoheat 04:33 PM 11-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

My "low-end" (2005) TH-50PX50U native 720p PDP still renders a great picture and is my bedroom TV.

While I am tempted to spend ~$3K for a "refrigerator sounding" TC-P65ZT60 or the slightly inferior PN64F8500AF I remain more inclined to hang on to those $ and eventually allocate them to an OLED.

Your a smart man, who would spent 3K on a bedroom set. Leave the best panels for the living room or media room.
KOF's Avatar KOF 05:02 PM 11-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

wasn't trying to debate the merits, i'd just never experienced a uhd signal on a 1080p tv, and it never occurred to me that there might actually be a benefit to it. i'm on of those guys that tends to think less processing is better, so a 1080p signal mapped 1:1 is as good as it gets for 1080p. i have seen where 720p sources look better on a 720p display than 1080p sources, but there's not much else going on besides the pixel count there.

i feel like i'm a lot more likely to support '4k' now, with the intent that i would use the superior color and bitrate on my currently 'good enough' in terms of pixel density 1080p displays.

1:1 pixel matching is the best, but only on games. Movies are different story as they have 'soft' pixels as opposed to 'hard' pixels for game, so downscaling is actually beneficial over the native resolution. It would be a different story if we were to have a 'SUPER 1080p' BD or something. Keeping resolution to 1080p, but having much higher bitrate, wider colorspace, higher bit depth, better chroma subsampling and etc, but consumers will not pay money for such contents, so the actual 4K resolution will have to do. While I haven't tried running 4k sources to a 720p display, I'll bet they will also look great on it. More bitrates are always welcome. We're actually bitrate starved more than anything. Maybe I should give downscaling 4k movies on my 480i SD CRT (Trinitron BVM) a try and see how it goes. It's going to be interesting for sure.
9179mhb's Avatar 9179mhb 08:25 AM 11-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post

Your a smart man, who would spent 3K on a bedroom set. Leave the best panels for the living room or media room.

Plasma TVs were considerably more expensive during 2005 then they are today. I seem to recall spending about $5000 for my bedroom TV only to be exceeded by the $7500 I spent during 2007 for my main TV, a PRO-150FD, which is located in the living room.
Tags: Panasonic Viera 42 Inch Plasma Tv Tc P42x3 , Panasonic Tc P42x60 42 Inch Plasma Hdtv
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