Samsung PN51F5300 – What a little gem! - i1Pro Calibration results inside - Page 33 - AVS Forum
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post #961 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
(Please do not ask for settings )
Totally understand you on that one. I've had D-Nice calibrate my VT60 and wouldn't share those advanced settings either.

That being said...can you at least confirm the basic settings (Cell Light, Contrast, Brightness, Sharpness, etc.) to give us a ballpark about the best basic settings out of the box in Movie mode?

Also, did he use BT.1886 or a standard flat gamma?
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post #962 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Whats the going rate for professional calibration of a set like this?
I would contact Chad as it really depends on everything you want. I also had him calibrate my audio system - namely my Denon X3000 receiver that has a Pro Audyssey mode which made a tremendous difference as well.

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post #963 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsketchie View Post
Totally understand you on that one. I've had D-Nice calibrate my VT60 and wouldn't share those advanced settings either.

That being said...can you at least confirm the basic settings (Cell Light, Contrast, Brightness, Sharpness, etc.) to give us a ballpark about the best basic settings out of the box in Movie mode?

Also, did he use BT.1886 or a standard flat gamma?
Right and what people have to know, there is too much individual, set-to-set variation when it comes to 10 point greyscale, gamma and CMS settings. All of this is tied into contrast, cell, etc. as well. You just really cannot properly extract settings from an individual cal.

I personally felt the best out of box setting was Movie mode with Warm 1 and contrast and and cell light set accordingly to your light output preference. I kept and still do keep all of the processing stuff off for the most natural image. I do use the Black Optimizer and Cinema Smooth for Blu. However, out of box settings just do not compare in any way to this cal.

I do most of my viewing on my F5300 in a light controlled room and do no like like a really bright image. I had him set it to 32 ftL. The display was capable of reaching mid 40s ftL.

I tried bt1886 on my previous VT60, but largely didn't prefer it over a power law gamma. At 24hz I'm at 2.26 and 2.25 for 60hz. Wish I could post the report.

Edit: reports now linked below.


Last edited by DavidHir; 08-23-2014 at 09:48 AM.
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post #964 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Right and what people have to know, there is too much individual, set-to-set variation when it comes to 10 point greyscale, gamma and CMS settings. All of this is tied into contrast, cell, etc. as well. You just really cannot properly extract settings from an individual cal.
I would love to see the CIE chart and also color checker runs. Would be interesting to see if/how he calibrated for the lower saturation points.

Did he unlock cal-night/day modes? I assume you have one calibration in "movie" mode and another in "cal night/day" mode?
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post #965 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Due to space requirements, the system is not allowing me to post the PDF calibration report (any ideas on work around?)
How big is the file? You can zip it (up to 97.7 kb) or rename it bmp (up to 976 kb) [filename.pdf.bmp].
Or both.

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #966 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Chad B calibrated my 51" F5300B tonight. This display calibrates remarkably well by any standard, but especially for the money.

I also cannot recommend Chad enough as his expertise, experience, and equipment allows a display like this to reach this level. He's cal'd a number of my displays over the years and always does absolutely top-notch work.

Due to space requirements, the system is not allowing me to post the PDF calibration report (any ideas on work around?) The greyscale is at a DE 2000 of .36 and the gamut is at .68

As far as MLL, the display did rather well although the blacks do float (as they do on all Samsung plasmas).

Measured on black full screen:

@ 24 hz with BO Dark room .00198
BO Off .00649

MLL measured with APL 18% window BO Dark room .02552

@ 60hz with BO Dark Room .00241
BO Auto .00255
BO Off .00743

MLL measured with APL 18% window BO Dark room .02758

(Please do not ask for settings )
Are those black level numbers in fL? If so, I'm shocked as mine are twice as bright and your numbers seem to be more in line with the F8500 than other F5300s DIY calibrators have measured here. You also mentioned you set could go into the mid 40s for light output. Mine tops out at 35 fL. What sized windows were used to measure light output? And did Chad use his C6 colorimeter for the black level measurements?

I wonder if these means the B models have much higher contrast ratios or whether this has more to do with a specific build date. Even the first A model I had had deeper blacks (0.004 fL or so), but these numbers are actually a bit better than on the S60 I had last year.

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-23-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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post #967 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Are those black level numbers in fL? If so, I'm shocked as mine are twice as bright and your numbers seem to be more in line with the F8500 than other F5300s DIY calibrators have measured here. You also mentioned you set could go into the mid 40s for light output. Mine tops out at 35 fL. What sized windows were used to measure light output?
ftL and APL 18%.

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post #968 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
How big is the file? You can zip it (up to 97.7 kb) or rename it bmp (up to 976 kb) [filename.pdf.bmp].
Or both.
The file is around 2900 kb, and I was only able to zip it to 636 kb. The new file requirements on the forum are a bit of a joke for a PDF.

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post #969 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Right and what people have to know, there is too much individual, set-to-set variation when it comes to 10 point greyscale, gamma and CMS settings. All of this is tied into contrast, cell, etc. as well. You just really cannot properly extract settings from an individual cal.

I personally felt the best out of box setting was Movie mode with Warm 1 and contrast and and cell light set accordingly to your light output preference. I kept and still do keep all of the processing stuff off for the most natural image. I do use the Black Optimizer and Cinema Smooth for Blu. However, out of box setting just do not compare in any way to this cal.

I do most of my viewing on my F5300 in a light controlled room and do no like like a really bright image. I had him set it to 32 ftL. The display was capable of reaching mid 40s ftL.

I tried bt1886 on my previous VT60, but largely didn't prefer it over a power law gamma. At 24hz I'm at 2.6 and 2.5 for 60hz. Wish I could post the report.
Really? power law gammas of 2.6 and 2.5... wouldn't that be too dark for shadow details? I'm assuming your room is like a bat-cave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
I would love to see the CIE chart and also color checker runs. Would be interesting to see if/how he calibrated for the lower saturation points.

Did he unlock cal-night/day modes? I assume you have one calibration in "movie" mode and another in "cal night/day" mode?
good questions

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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
How big is the file? You can zip it (up to 97.7 kb) or rename it bmp (up to 976 kb) [filename.pdf.bmp].
Or both.
He could do what I did with my service manual... upload it to Google Drive and then post the link here (and set permissions to anyone that has the link).


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post #970 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
ftL and APL 18%.
wow, now I'm curious if all B models measure like this or not (could also explain why some like the darker gammas and some don't... darker gammas don't kill much shadow detail when the contrast ratio is very high)


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post #971 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:26 AM
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Sorry, meant 2.25 and 2.26 for gammas lol.

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post #972 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Sorry, meant 2.25 and 2.26 for gammas lol.
oh, haha

2.5 and 2.6 is like going to the cinema

did Chad use a black offset with the power law gammas (though it would likely be insignificant with such low black levels)?


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post #973 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:35 AM
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post #974 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
oh, haha

2.5 and 2.6 is like going to the cinema

did Chad use a black offset with the power law gammas (though it would likely be insignificant with such low black levels)?
Yeah, I couldn't imagine 2.5 or 2.6 even on my JVC front projector which in a dedicated, completely black-pit room (walls and carpet black).

I am not sure. I sent him a link to this thread if he choose to comment on the display. We were both very pleased with it.


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post #975 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
wow, now I'm curious if all B models measure like this or not (could also explain why some like the darker gammas and some don't... darker gammas don't kill much shadow detail when the contrast ratio is very high)
I would be curious how another B model calibrates, myself.

I've only had a chance to do a little viewing since the cal, but it looks absolutely outstanding on the channels I typically watch and am used to. This display is just an incredible value once it's properly calibrated.
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post #976 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
not 100% sure, but it looks like he used the sliding power gamma in CalMAN 5 (like BT.1886 but you can change the exponent from 2.4)... the curve drops well below 2.25-2.26 at the very low end

here is my gamma curve, though with a 2.22 exponent and the sliding power gamma:
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post #977 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 10:05 AM
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Also, did he used the night/day modes for the second calibration? I'm assuming one was in movie mode and the other in the N/D modes since Standard lacks the 10-pt controls.

I've also be meaning to ask anyone with the 2014 models: do the 10-pt controls have more range and/or finer increments?


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post #978 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Also, did he used the night/day modes for the second calibration? I'm assuming one was in movie mode and the other in the N/D modes since Standard lacks the 10-pt controls.

I've also be meaning to ask anyone with the 2014 models: do the 10-pt controls have more range and/or finer increments?
I would have to check on the modes. I think it was just Movie mode for each input.

One thing he did notice: this is the first time he saw no issues on a Samsung plasma with the 10 pt controls, range and interaction with how it works with the cell light.


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post #979 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 01:53 PM
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I'm not sure whether this is the right thread, but does anyone know whether the 51H5000 model has the same panel as F5300/F5500? Or shares the same panel as the 64H5000?

I'm still having a difficult time choosing, I don't want to end up regretting my buy. No best buys/amazon here, so I'm stuck to pretty expensive prices.

I've read that the F4500/H4500 is a bargain for its price in the states (around $400) but I'm not sure at $575 a 720p plasma can still be considered a bargain. The H5000 is still a mystery, no reviews at all here, perhaps it's an Asian exclusive model? There's the 64H5000 but I'm not sure whether it's the same panel, and the reviews aren't doing it any favors, probably because having a pentile display. The F5500 has very good reviews but I'm not sure I'd need the 3D and smart features, although the remote and 1080p resolution is a plus. I wish they sell F5300 sets here.
  • 51H4500 - $575
  • 51H5000 - $635
  • 51F5500 - $755

Now I'm leaning towards the H5000 as I feel the 1080p resolution would be nicer and I don't need any smart/3D functions but there are plenty of bad reviews regarding the pentile display

http://www.samsung.com/my/consumer/t...PA51H5000ARXXM
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post #980 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by closencounters View Post
I'm not sure whether this is the right thread, but does anyone know whether the 51H5000 model has the same panel as F5300/F5500? Or shares the same panel as the 64H5000?

I'm still having a difficult time choosing, I don't want to end up regretting my buy. No best buys/amazon here, so I'm stuck to pretty expensive prices.

I've read that the F4500/H4500 is a bargain for its price in the states (around $400) but I'm not sure at $575 a 720p plasma can still be considered a bargain. The H5000 is still a mystery, no reviews at all here, perhaps it's an Asian exclusive model? There's the 64H5000 but I'm not sure whether it's the same panel, and the reviews aren't doing it any favors, probably because having a pentile display. The F5500 has very good reviews but I'm not sure I'd need the 3D and smart features, although the remote and 1080p resolution is a plus. I wish they sell F5300 sets here.
  • 51H4500 - $575
  • 51H5000 - $635
  • 51F5500 - $755

Now I'm leaning towards the H5000 as I feel the 1080p resolution would be nicer and I don't need any smart/3D functions but there are plenty of bad reviews regarding the pentile display

http://www.samsung.com/my/consumer/t...PA51H5000ARXXM
the H5000 is a different model from the F5300 plus most of us here are talking about US models, which are different from the ones you're referring to.

In the US, the only 51" 1080p models are the F5300/F5350, F5500, and F8500.


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post #981 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
the H5000 is a different model from the F5300 plus most of us here are talking about US models, which are different from the ones you're referring to.

In the US, the only 51" 1080p models are the F5300/F5350, F5500, and F8500.
I figured they should be the same with the exception of the H5000. The H4500 is the 2014 version of the F4500 and F5500 should be the same.

Seeing that the F5500 price in the US is closer to the prices here, perhaps I should get more value buying it? Staggering price difference for the F4500...
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post #982 of 1135 Old 08-23-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by closencounters View Post
Now I'm leaning towards the H5000 as I feel the 1080p resolution would be nicer and I don't need any smart/3D functions but there are plenty of bad reviews regarding the pentile display
http://www.samsung.com/my/consumer/t...PA51H5000ARXXM
I would not be surprised if model 51H5000 is the same as the B version (2014 version) of the 51F5300.

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post #983 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
As far as MLL, the display did rather well although the blacks do float (as they do on all Samsung plasmas).

Measured on black full screen:

@ 24 hz with BO Dark room .00198
BO Off .00649

MLL measured with APL 18% window BO Dark room .02552

@ 60hz with BO Dark Room .00241
BO Auto .00255
BO Off .00743

MLL measured with APL 18% window BO Dark room .02758
Seems implausible given that the F8500 is doing .0025fL after firmware update, and I have never seen F5300 readings this low unless they look off the back and tweaked pots.

For 24hz did you measure with Cinema Smooth on or off? That is supposed to have a slight effect as well (for the worse, apparently).

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post #984 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
I would not be surprised if model 51H5000 is the same as the B version (2014 version) of the 51F5300.
It could be, since it's the only 2014 51" 5 series plasma with no smart/3D functions.
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post #985 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closencounters View Post
It could be, since it's the only 2014 51" 5 series plasma with no smart/3D functions.
Also of note, the $635 price you quote on the 51F5000 is very close to the U.S. MSRP (list) price of the 51F5300 ($649.99). I don't see why Samsung would manufacture a 51" pentile model when they have not done so in the past.

BTW, I have two 51F5300B sets with different manufacture dates, and both use panel version TS02. I don't know if panel ID numbers vary outside the U.S. but if the 51H5000 has panel TS02 it is absolutely not pentile.
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post #986 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Seems implausible given that the F8500 is doing .0025fL after firmware update, and I have never seen F5300 readings this low unless they look off the back and tweaked pots.

For 24hz did you measure with Cinema Smooth on or off? That is supposed to have a slight effect as well (for the worse, apparently).
What is it with you F8500 fanboys anyway? Data seems irrelevant and no other TV can ever match the F8500. lol

Well, it's not implausible. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.

Chad is as reputable as ANY calibrator out there and the numbers don't lie and he's using the D3 to measure MLL which has no issues measuring at this level.

EDIT: I was just informed David Mackenzie measured .0016 on the lower priced 64H5000 (pentile no less). I guess that is implausible too since it's lower than the F8500.


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post #987 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 12:50 PM
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It should also be known I owned a Panasonic 65" VT60 plasma for about a year. When I got my F5300, in a dark room I could sense the blacks were very good on all black or near all black screen and really not worlds away from my VT60. However, the VT60 blacks do not float with APL as the F5300 and other Samsungs do; hence the .0255 MLL number at the 18% APL pattern where as the VT60 will be closer to about .0012. This is a huge difference. (Note I also own a JVC RS4810 front projector which has superior blacks to the VT60). Still, I think the F5300 has very good blacks overall on content (and especially compared to LCDs I've encountered).

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post #988 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 01:42 PM
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In my experience, with a high fixed apl pattern, the black level can float way higher than the mll. Where can I find a 18% apl pattern to compare my a model to your b model. Keep in mind my a model has a mll of 0.005 fL at its lowest. Readings at the start of a calibration session tend to be more like 0.006 fL.

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post #989 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 01:47 PM
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Seems implausible given that the F8500 is doing .0025fL after firmware update, and I have never seen F5300 readings this low unless they look off the back and tweaked pots.

For 24hz did you measure with Cinema Smooth on or off? That is supposed to have a slight effect as well (for the worse, apparently).
What is it with you F8500 fanboys anyway? Data seems irrelevant and no other TV can ever match the F8500. lol

Well, it's not implausible. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.

Chad is as reputable as ANY calibrator out there and the numbers don't lie and he's using the D3 to measure MLL which has no issues measuring at this level.
Must be the difference between the a model and b model. They have different panel versions with different part numbers as well as different part numbers for the various pcb's. I also believe the logic board is separate from the main board on the b model and part of the panel.
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Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-24-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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post #990 of 1135 Old 08-24-2014, 02:20 PM
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Must be the difference between the a model and b model. They have different panel versions with different part numbers as well as different part numbers for the various pcb's. I also believe the logic board is separate from the main board on the b model and part of the panel.
Right, there are definitely some differences between A and B models. My guess is Samsung implemented improvements into the "B" models for 2014 before deciding to pull the plug on plasma and probably before Panasonic announced they were leaving too. Aren't there menu items also different between the A and B models? I know some have said out-of-box seemed to look better on the B models too compared to the A models.

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