Samsung PN51F5300 – What a little gem! - i1Pro Calibration results inside - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1192 Old 08-24-2014, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
In my experience, with a high fixed apl pattern, the black level can float way higher than the mll. Where can I find a 18% apl pattern to compare my a model to your b model. Keep in mind my a model has a mll of 0.005 fL at its lowest. Readings at the start of a calibration session tend to be more like 0.006 fL.
Not sure where to find the 18% pattern (is it in the AVS test patterns?) - maybe ask in the calibration forum.

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post #992 of 1192 Old 08-24-2014, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Right, there are definitely some differences between A and B models. My guess is Samsung implemented improvements into the "B" models for 2014 before deciding to pull the plug on plasma and probably before Panasonic announced they were leaving too. Aren't there menu items also different between the A and B models? I know some have said out-of-box seemed to look better on the B models too compared to the A models.
Yes, there are some differences A to B in menu and submenu options, though they are inconsequential as I remember. And based on my experience with both, I can vouch for the fact that my B model had a much better picture out of box. Not even close.
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post #993 of 1192 Old 08-24-2014, 02:54 PM
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Just noted the 64H5000 (pentile no less) was measured at an MLL of .0016 by David Mackenzie, so it seems Samsung did make some improvements in blacks for other 2014 plasma versions.
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post #994 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
In my experience, with a high fixed apl pattern, the black level can float way higher than the mll. Where can I find a 18% apl pattern to compare my a model to your b model. Keep in mind my a model has a mll of 0.005 fL at its lowest. Readings at the start of a calibration session tend to be more like 0.006 fL.
I believe Chad is a 5 to 7% window with 18% apl, you can generate those with the Calman internal pattern generator.

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post #995 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
What is it with you F8500 fanboys anyway? Data seems irrelevant and no other TV can ever match the F8500. lol

Well, it's not implausible. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.

Chad is as reputable as ANY calibrator out there and the numbers don't lie and he's using the D3 to measure MLL which has no issues measuring at this level.

EDIT: I was just informed David Mackenzie measured .0016 on the lower priced 64H5000 (pentile no less). I guess that is implausible too since it's lower than the F8500.
F8500 fanboy? lol, I own a 60F5300. I am questioning those numbers because I have never seen a F5300 measure below .004fL without lowering voltages. I have a B model and while blacks are pretty good, I'm fairly certain they are not in the .002ish range.

64H5000 is irrelevant to this discussion as it is a different panel and newer model for 2014.
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post #996 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 11:07 AM
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So I bought this little gem yesterday. It is unbelievable as far as the picture quality, but one HUGE concern.

When I turned it on for the first time, (Same thing after it was shut off overnight) there is an array of what looks like stuck pixels on the upper right portion of the screen that are visible for a few seconds when the display is first powered on. Then they quickly disintegrate. Picture looks spot-on after this. No stuck pixels.

Basically, I am worried if I keep this tv, one day the pixels won't totally disintegrate. I am glad I have 14 more days to decide, as it was purchased from the Best Buy down the road. Just looking for some thoughts from the Plasma experts on here.

Have been playing nothing but full screen HD content on it so far to break it in. Also calibrated it to the thread starter's settings. (much appreciated)

Can post a pic if necessary the next time I power it on after it has been powered off for a while. (This issue is non-existent unless its been off for a while.)

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post #997 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
F8500 fanboy? lol, I own a 60F5300. I am questioning those numbers because I have never seen a F5300 measure below .004fL without lowering voltages. I have a B model and while blacks are pretty good, I'm fairly certain they are not in the .002ish range.

64H5000 is irrelevant to this discussion as it is a different panel and newer model for 2014.
Yet, you have zero data and I do from a top calibrator.

The H500 is relevant as it is a 2014 model and the internal boards have changed on the 515300B which is what is being sold for 2014. These are "newer" plasmas for Samsung. Heck, even with cell at 20 and contrast less than 95 the 10 point controls don't act wonky as that cannot be said with previous Samsung plasmas.


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post #998 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
F8500 fanboy? lol, I own a 60F5300. I am questioning those numbers because I have never seen a F5300 measure below .004fL without lowering voltages. I have a B model and while blacks are pretty good, I'm fairly certain they are not in the .002ish range.

64H5000 is irrelevant to this discussion as it is a different panel and newer model for 2014.
The eqiupment Chad uses is more that capable of measuring to that level so what is there to question ? David has provided the data which proves his set measures that low.

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post #999 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
The eqiupment Chad uses is more that capable of measuring to that level so what is there to question ? David has provided the data which proves his set measures that low.
As others here are aware, I also measure 0.002 ftL on all black screens on my PN60F5300 (CS ON and 24Hz output). I have attributed this to the fact that I lowered Vs voltage when I opened up the panel to alleviate the red tint issue on my set. That being said, I have no proof or reason to believe that the voltage tweak itself was responsible for the 0.002ftL measurement (I didn't own my meter prior to doing the voltage tweak). Moreover, tom669 doesn't seem to think that Vs should have made much of a difference to my black level. Anyways, jury is out on my set, but I did measure 0.002ftL on my set, so the panel is capable of achieving this.

I found it curious that Chad was able to achieve 40ftL peak luminance in movie mode. Pretty much everyone else has reported (and I have seen the same) a peak luminance of ~35ftL in Movie mode. Trying to push that up more results in one of the RGB colors clipping out and degrades the calibration. I know that the panel can achieve ~40-42ftL with good calibration in Standard Mode on my set, but I have not been able to achieve that in Movie mode.

Chad's calibration looks fantastic. Even better than what I achieved:


Now I have calibration envy ...not that improving my calibration will really make any visual difference. @DavidHir , I'm curious... did Chad use service menu controls for calibration as well or did he just stick to the regular menu controls including 10pt whitebalance and Color Space controls?
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post #1000 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 12:56 PM
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Just got this TV (B version, TS02 panel, manufactured April 2014) and am floored by the picture. Judging by pervious posts, should I just have this on the following settings? I assume given the out of box settings that I shouldn't tinker with custom color space and white balance since the TV only has few hours on it and would need an actual collaboration before messing with that.

Picture Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 48
Sharpness: 12
Color: 50
Tint: G50 / R50
Color tone: Warm2
Turn off all processing
Black Optimizer: Dark Room
Color Space: Auto
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post #1001 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
Just got this TV (B version, TS02 panel, manufactured April 2014) and am floored by the picture. Judging by pervious posts, should I just have this on the following settings? I assume given the out of box settings that I shouldn't tinker with custom color space and white balance since the TV only has few hours on it and would need an actual collaboration before messing with that.

Picture Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 48
Sharpness: 12
Color: 50
Tint: G50 / R50
Color tone: Warm2
Turn off all processing
Black Optimizer: Dark Room
Color Space: Auto
You should be good to go with those settings. Enjoy!
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post #1002 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post

Now I have calibration envy ...not that improving my calibration will really make any visual difference. @DavidHir , I'm curious... did Chad use service menu controls for calibration as well or did he just stick to the regular menu controls including 10pt whitebalance and Color Space controls?
I was not even in the room when he did the cal, so I am not certain but I believe regular menu controls.

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post #1003 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
Picture Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 48
Sharpness: 12
Color: 50
Tint: G50 / R50
Color tone: Warm2
Turn off all processing
Black Optimizer: Dark Room
Color Space: Auto
Those are perfect for out of box settings if you don't have a meter! I wish those settings could be stickied on the front post of both threads regarding the F5300 plasmas.
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post #1004 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 01:38 PM
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Well I am guessing I should put my picture back to factory and maybe apply these settings? Didn't know I wasn't supposed to use the pro calibration settings on a new tv. It is my first plasma.
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post #1005 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
Just got this TV (B version, TS02 panel, manufactured April 2014) and am floored by the picture. Judging by pervious posts, should I just have this on the following settings? I assume given the out of box settings that I shouldn't tinker with custom color space and white balance since the TV only has few hours on it and would need an actual collaboration before messing with that.

Picture Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 48
Sharpness: 12
Color: 50
Tint: G50 / R50
Color tone: Warm2
Turn off all processing
Black Optimizer: Dark Room
Color Space: Auto
Just set my tv to these settings as it only has been in use for 15 hours. Really hoping scrolling and overall use helps with the pixel issue when started cold.
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post #1006 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I was not even in the room when he did the cal, so I am not certain but I believe regular menu controls.
Thanks. I'm really surprised by how terrible the out of box movie mode RGB balance was on your set. Most of us with B spec F5300 sets and meters have measured quite good RGB balance with factory settings in Movie mode. Usually one of the colors is a bit offset but not diverging like in your calibration report.

Actually, now that I think about it, was the default with Warm 1 setting? That might explain it as Warm 2 is the setting closest to D65 on these sets and Warm 1 is certainly much cooler and bluer in comparison.
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post #1007 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 02:39 PM
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Samsung PN51F5300 – What a little gem! - i1Pro Calibration results inside

I was very happy to see how accurate the color turned out and see the low MLL on Dave's set. I did just calibrate Movie mode in the user menu. The service menu was not necessary in this situation.
The MLL did indeed look that low with a totally black screen, but with content it did rise as seen in the calibration report data taken with 18% apl windows.
The before cal readings were due to some settings that were not factory default. I did measure pre cal movie mode after resetting it and it was more in line with what would be expected.
The high light output capability may be due to using black optimizer on Auto. That gives higher light output while retaining the low MLL.

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post #1008 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I was very happy to see how accurate the color turned out and see the low MLL on Dave's set. I did just calibrate Movie mode in the user menu. The service menu was not necessary in this situation.
The MLL did indeed look that low with a totally black screen, but with content it did rise as seen in the calibration report data taken with 18% apl windows.
The before cal readings were due to some settings that were not factory default. I did measure pre cal movie mode after resetting it and it was more in line with what would be expected.


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Thanks for your input Chad. Great job with the calibration btw! Also, did you do anything specific to get Movie mode up to 40ftL or was that just the native capability of the panel? I wasn't able to get above ~35fL on my PN60F5300 in movie mode.
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post #1009 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 02:50 PM
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Samsung PN51F5300 – What a little gem! - i1Pro Calibration results inside

Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Thanks for your input Chad. Great job with the calibration btw! Also, did you do anything specific to get Movie mode up to 40ftL or was that just the native capability of the panel? I wasn't able to get above ~35fL on my PN60F5300 in movie mode.

Thanks! I just edited my post with the answer to your question.


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post #1010 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 06:03 PM
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Can anyone else see if black optimizer auto raises light output? If so, I might need to tweak my current calibration.
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post #1011 of 1192 Old 08-25-2014, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Can anyone else see if black optimizer auto raises light output? If so, I might need to tweak my current calibration.
I had tried it in the past on my PN60F5300 but saw no change in peak luminance. I just tried now and at least by eyeballing, I don't see any change. I have heard about this impacting peak luminance in the past though, so it may be true on some panels
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post #1012 of 1192 Old 08-26-2014, 08:46 AM
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There appear to be two different panels that work with the pn51f5300afxza, one of which works with the F5500 too:

http://www.samsungparts.com/Products...PN51F5300AFXZA

http://www.samsungparts.com/Products...PN51F5300AFXZA


Just one for the pn51f5300bfxza (which is not compatible with any other models):

http://www.samsungparts.com/Products...PN51F5300BFXZA



Perhaps this can explain with some a models have MLL at 0.004 fL, some at 0.005 fL, and b models at 0.002 fL.





To add to the confusion, Sears has another part number for the a model panel:

http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part...1f5300&keyId=2

Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 08-26-2014 at 09:03 AM.
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post #1013 of 1192 Old 08-26-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I had tried it in the past on my PN60F5300 but saw no change in peak luminance. I just tried now and at least by eyeballing, I don't see any change. I have heard about this impacting peak luminance in the past though, so it may be true on some panels
same here, switched to auto but didn't see any obvious change

will check later with meter and with small, medium, and large windows (plus full fields)
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post #1014 of 1192 Old 08-26-2014, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I wasn't able to get above ~35fL on my PN60F5300 in movie mode.
I'm not home to try it, but can't you just raise everything by increasing R, G & B equally in 2 point white balance gain? Alternatively, just increase 100% and 90% similarly?

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1015 of 1192 Old 08-26-2014, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm not home to try it, but can't you just raise everything by increasing R, G & B equally in 2 point white balance gain? Alternatively, just increase 100% and 90% similarly?
doing so might result in color clipping in 1-2 of the color channels and discolor 100% white

on my set in Movie mode going from contrast 99 to 100 discolors 100% white (full field part of contrast/white clipping pattern... with WTW output cut at PS3)
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post #1016 of 1192 Old 08-26-2014, 12:10 PM
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I bought a Samsung PN51F5300 from sears about four months ago and used wills calibration numbers and the tv has been fantastic. I have a huge dvd collection and the picture is impressive to me from my upconverting players. I was wondering which signal is best for the tv 720p to keep it progresssive or 1080i to keep resolution. Does this tv do upscaling or de-interlacing better?

Thanks
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post #1017 of 1192 Old 08-26-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
The MLL did indeed look that low with a totally black screen, but with content it did rise as seen in the calibration report data taken with 18% apl windows.
The before cal readings were due to some settings that were not factory default. I did measure pre cal movie mode after resetting it and it was more in line with what would be expected.
The high light output capability may be due to using black optimizer on Auto. That gives higher light output while retaining the low MLL.
Thanks for this info Chad! I just spent a little time running some tests and it does indeed look like Auto on black optimizer boosts peak luminance without compromising black level (see my measurements below).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Can anyone else see if black optimizer auto raises light output? If so, I might need to tweak my current calibration.
Yes it does! See my measurements below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm not home to try it, but can't you just raise everything by increasing R, G & B equally in 2 point white balance gain? Alternatively, just increase 100% and 90% similarly?
As mentioned earlier, you end up hitting the limit of one or more of the RGB colors so in order to keep 100% white neutral you are still limited by the panel capability. The max luminance is ~ 35ftL for Movie mode and Dark Room setting for Black optimizer.

Okay, so I spent some time doing some measurements on my PN60F5300 today with my Colormunki Display and HCFR. HCFR averages over several readings to measure black levels providing a very accurate black level reading that has been very consistent with my meter. I was mainly interested in looking at 2 things:

  1. Impact of APL on black level luminance. For this I used the ColorHCFR small and Large APL patterns on the AVSHD709 disc and compared against all black screen readings
  2. Impact of Black Optimizer set to Dark Room v/s Auto

Below is the raw data from my tests.

Full Black Screen

0.006733 cd/m2
0.001965 ftL

0% AVSHD709 ColorHCFR Small APL

0.007626 cd/m2
0.002226 ftL

0% AVSHD709 ColorHCFR Large APL
0.016267 cd/m2
0.004748 ftL

Black Optimizer Dark - 12% Window size
120.009136 cd/m2 (100% Gray - i.e White)
35.026287 ftL

0.006947 cd/m2 (0% Gray)
0.002028 ftL

Black Optimizer Auto - 12% Window size, 100% Gray (white)
144.127510 cd/m2 (100% Gray - i.e White)
42.065561 ftL

0.007023 cd/m2 (0% Gray)
0.002050 ftL

As you can see from the readings above, The small APL patterns do not exhibit an appreciable rise in black level. However, for the larger APL pattern, I do notice an increase of black level from ~0.002 ftL to ~ 0.005 ftL which is consistent with ChadB's measurements.

I was also thrilled to note that the Black Optimizer setting of Auto does infact boost peak luminance of 100% white to ~42ftL from 35 ftL if BO is set to dark room. Moreover, this does not seem to degrade black level for all black scenes as both settings measured MLL of ~ 0.002 ftL.
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post #1018 of 1192 Old 08-27-2014, 07:34 AM
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I was hesitant to buy this TV (51F5300B), because of input lag issue (input lag database put it at 47ms, some reviews online said 70--100ms!) but after receiving mine to replace a dying D6900, I can report after testing with my Leo Bodnar tester that I always get 38.4ms, the same number with game mode on & off.

I'm guessing most review and even the input lag database tested the A version, and it got a lot better with the B.
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post #1019 of 1192 Old 08-27-2014, 11:59 AM
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Does anyone know if a Samsung usb wirelss adapter or another brand will work with this tv to grab media files directly from my PC over a DNLA connection using the media share ability within the tv. I understand a chromecast does this. It just seems the TV itself has a wider range of file formats it will play. For reference Samsung rep provided this to me shown in attached photo.

Also I purchased a soundbar the Samsung HWF550. Is this going to shut off and on with the tv or will all controlling have to be done with the included soundbar remote. I am on Dish Hopper and wonder if the HDMI-CEC will do what I am looking for through that. Anyone know?
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Last edited by goingup; 08-27-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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post #1020 of 1192 Old 08-27-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancoisC View Post
I was hesitant to buy this TV (51F5300B), because of input lag issue (input lag database put it at 47ms, some reviews online said 70--100ms!) but after receiving mine to replace a dying D6900, I can report after testing with my Leo Bodnar tester that I always get 38.4ms, the same number with game mode on & off.

I'm guessing most review and even the input lag database tested the A version, and it got a lot better with the B.
Not sure about the differences with the A and B version, I have the B version and the lag varies from 32 to 48 ms using photo grabs vs a CRT. The lag equals or is slightly better than the A version of the 51F4500 panel in my photo tests posted here. As you said, game mode makes no difference, but I have yet to try PC / Entertain mode.
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