Samsung PN51F5300 – What a little gem! - i1Pro Calibration results inside - Page 35 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 1685 Old 08-27-2014, 02:23 PM
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Personally, I don't always trust the photo method, because I've seen some PC/Laptop video cards create a very small and variable lag when cloning displays.

I used to keep a CRT for lag testing computer monitors and TV, and when I tested the lag on my laptop's LCD, the CRT would have more lag than the integrated screen, which does not make sense. But, if I made the CRT the primary monitor, the situation was reversed.

On my gaming tower, I did not have this problem, I guess it depend on the GPU, and some low end one can't clone without adding a small lag.

Anyway, I bought this device:

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index....roducts_id=212

and it has better than 1ms accuracy, and I don't get variable numbers anymore.
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post #1022 of 1685 Old 08-27-2014, 04:57 PM
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I've done more regular viewing since Chad cal'd my 51F5300B last Friday night and I have to say, it just looks outstanding on a wide variety of content. Deep blacks, nice shadow detail, strong contrast, and very natural color. It does seem like there is minimal ABL at play as whites stay really bright. The motion is excellent with 24p and Cinema Smooth on Blu-ray. Another thing I like is there is no issue with image retention. This displayed really pleasantly exceeded my initial expectations. And I just want to tell you, the cal far exceeds out-of-box or self-adjusted settings.
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post #1023 of 1685 Old 08-28-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancoisC View Post
Personally, I don't always trust the photo method, because I've seen some PC/Laptop video cards create a very small and variable lag when cloning displays.

I used to keep a CRT for lag testing computer monitors and TV, and when I tested the lag on my laptop's LCD, the CRT would have more lag than the integrated screen, which does not make sense. But, if I made the CRT the primary monitor, the situation was reversed.

On my gaming tower, I did not have this problem, I guess it depend on the GPU, and some low end one can't clone without adding a small lag.

Anyway, I bought this device:

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index....roducts_id=212

and it has better than 1ms accuracy, and I don't get variable numbers anymore.
The photo method is only accurate when splitting an analog input, and is the ONLY way to compare analog input lag vs. an old school CRT. For my tests I used a component feed mechanically split two ways to the two plasmas, and split the Y (Luma) 3 ways so I could get a black and white picture through a composite input on an old CRT. Its impossible for any signal variation to occur using this split analog method.

Of course, this method is limited to 16.7ms accuracy, because thats the max display update either of the 3 sets can produce.

I know from previous experience that a laptop or tablets display vs. its HDMI out can be severely different, as you pointed out. I have a couple of Android tablets whose HDMI out ports lag their display by AT LEAST 100ms.
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Last edited by Josh128; 08-28-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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post #1024 of 1685 Old 08-28-2014, 02:16 PM
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People in here are talking about "B" models. Did they just come out in 2014? How do you tell which model you have? Someone mentioned menu differences? I'll be kinda jealous if there was a new 2014 model JUST after I bought mine.

Also, I knew I had the odd little uniformity issue (like a small line pretty much only visible on whitest white) which I was informed was common with plasma, but today I made the room totally dark and put up Disney WOW's black Purity test, and there's a part of the screen that's darker than the rest, like a large black bar. It's not visible during viewing, and like I said I had to have the room utterly lightless to notice, but now I kinda wish I hadn't, lol.
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post #1025 of 1685 Old 08-28-2014, 02:27 PM
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Oh, and... The brightness setting i have to set it to to get rid of the green dithering on a black screen seems like it might be a little low. In the WOW advanced brightness test, I guess I can barely see the last "visible star", but on that screen where it goes from perfect black to perfect white or whatever, some of the "visible checkers" are... pretty much invisible.
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post #1026 of 1685 Old 08-29-2014, 07:34 AM
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How do you tell which model you have?
There should be a sticker on the back of the set showing both the model number and the panel number. Shouldn't be too hard to find...
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post #1027 of 1685 Old 08-29-2014, 09:12 AM
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So the best place to buy an extended warranty is with SquareTrade through Costco, right? I paid $495 at Best Buy ($549 and 10% coupon) for the set, so I could buy the $29 plan since it came out to under $500. Just checking.

http://www.costco.com/.product.575678.html
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post #1028 of 1685 Old 08-30-2014, 03:49 PM
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Oh, and... The brightness setting i have to set it to to get rid of the green dithering on a black screen seems like it might be a little low. In the WOW advanced brightness test, I guess I can barely see the last "visible star", but on that screen where it goes from perfect black to perfect white or whatever, some of the "visible checkers" are... pretty much invisible.
Although it might seem desireable to set the 0% star to pure "no dithering" black in a dark room, that would put you in the mid 40s or so brightness and thats too low-- you will crush blacks pretty bad on blu rays and DVDs. Set the 0% star just to where its got just enough dithering to make out that its a star, and you'll be set.

I did what you did at first and its no good-- I'd much rather a little dithering on pure blacks than almost all shadow detail being crushed. This is at a brightness of high 50's to low 60's on my set. Same thing with whites-- going over 90 contrast this set will crush some whites.

When you watch some good HD footage of outdoors / etc, white clipping comes into play, and good footage of dark scenes, black clipping /crushing comes into play. When properly set for both, these sets really look phenomenal. Netflix HD in particular is breathtaking if you have a good internet connection.
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post #1029 of 1685 Old 08-30-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I've done more regular viewing since Chad cal'd my 51F5300B last Friday night and I have to say, it just looks outstanding on a wide variety of content. Deep blacks, nice shadow detail, strong contrast, and very natural color. It does seem like there is minimal ABL at play as whites stay really bright. The motion is excellent with 24p and Cinema Smooth on Blu-ray. Another thing I like is there is no issue with image retention. This displayed really pleasantly exceeded my initial expectations. And I just want to tell you, the cal far exceeds out-of-box or self-adjusted settings.
You mentioned ABL-- at what cell light settings did Chad leave the set? 20 will give you the best (least) ABL. It starts to become more pronounced at 16 and under.
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post #1030 of 1685 Old 08-30-2014, 09:31 PM
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After a full-day orgy of college football i can only say ... WOW, what a great TV for sports. Football has never looked so purty!

Last edited by Nikwasi; 08-30-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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post #1031 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
You mentioned ABL-- at what cell light settings did Chad leave the set? 20 will give you the best (least) ABL. It starts to become more pronounced at 16 and under.
Yes, my cell is at 20.

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post #1032 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 07:01 AM
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Although it might seem desireable to set the 0% star to pure "no dithering" black in a dark room, that would put you in the mid 40s or so brightness and thats too low-- you will crush blacks pretty bad on blu rays and DVDs. Set the 0% star just to where its got just enough dithering to make out that its a star, and you'll be set.

I did what you did at first and its no good-- I'd much rather a little dithering on pure blacks than almost all shadow detail being crushed. This is at a brightness of high 50's to low 60's on my set. Same thing with whites-- going over 90 contrast this set will crush some whites.

When you watch some good HD footage of outdoors / etc, white clipping comes into play, and good footage of dark scenes, black clipping /crushing comes into play. When properly set for both, these sets really look phenomenal. Netflix HD in particular is breathtaking if you have a good internet connection.
Whoa, low 50s, high 60s? I wouldn't have expected that. I know the default brightness was like 45 and most setups I've seen are (I think) in the 40s. I'll check it out though and play around with it. Thanks for the reply.

Edit: Yeah, with Brightness on high 50s, low 60s, I can see at least one of the "invisible stars" in the Advanced Brightness test.

Last edited by JarvisKong; 08-31-2014 at 07:32 AM.
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post #1033 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 07:52 AM
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Whoa, low 50s, high 60s? I wouldn't have expected that. I know the default brightness was like 45 and most setups I've seen are (I think) in the 40s. I'll check it out though and play around with it. Thanks for the reply.

Edit: Yeah, with Brightness on high 50s, low 60s, I can see at least one of the "invisible stars" in the Advanced Brightness test.
I noticed what looked to be a LOT of black crush on Blu Rays "300 Rise of an Empire" and "Man of Steel" and it actually seemed to strain my eyes. I was using a brightness of around 45 and contrast of 95. It was at that point I decided to download the AVS 709 disc to see what was up. Found I was clipping blacks, whites, AND colors pretty bad. I set it properly according to the disc, and ordered a Disney WOW DVD (on the cheap) from Ebay. When I tried it after the AVS 709 calibration, it was basically spot on already, even the blue filter color test. This is using brightness of 60, contrast of 90, color of 42. I think Im using a color temp of "cool" to reduce the amount of red in the whites at this level of contrast. The tint is at 50/50.

I found several scenes in Netflix "Breaking Bad" content where my old settings were clipping white and black detail. Using properly calibrated settings really do make content look better as you can see so much more color, light, and shadow detail/gradation. The little bit of dithering you get on blacks at these levels is unnoticable at normal viewing distances and is well worth the ability to display all the details properly.

Last edited by Josh128; 08-31-2014 at 07:56 AM.
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post #1034 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 09:47 AM
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White sparkles

Hi guys - long time reader, but first time posting...

I just picked up the PN51F5300 (B). Great TV. I used the calibration settings that started this thread and have been enjoying the heck out of it as an exclusive gaming TV for my PS4. Have been playing Sniper III, Diablo III and MGS:GZ and so far, no issues with input lag - maybe someone who plays FPS often can weigh in.

My only concern (there always seems to be one) is that i've had the "white sparkle" issue that some folks have discussed earlier in this thread - certain pixels will randomly flash white throughout the screen...obviously it's most evident when the screen is dark, but can be easily seen while in the PS4 dashboard. It's not "horrible" but it is noticeable at 5-6 feet (where I sit to play) and it can range from a few sparkles at a time (10-15) to maybe 20-30....I'm not super picky, but one doesn't want to sink $500 into something that delivers a compromised image.

I've tried the AmazonBasics HDMI cable, Twisted Veins HDMI cable and the HDMI cable that was packaged with the PS4. It sparkles with all three. I changed the RGB/resolution settings to "automatic" in the PS4 settings and that seemed to make them go away, but I haven't done any tried and true troubleshooting. Has anyone else figured out the cause of the problem? It's obviously still under warranty, but I'm still within my 15 day grace period with BB and would rather just exchange it.

Also, the firmware is reading as 1002. Is that appropriate for a B model?
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post #1035 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
I noticed what looked to be a LOT of black crush on Blu Rays "300 Rise of an Empire" and "Man of Steel" and it actually seemed to strain my eyes. I was using a brightness of around 45 and contrast of 95. It was at that point I decided to download the AVS 709 disc to see what was up. Found I was clipping blacks, whites, AND colors pretty bad. I set it properly according to the disc, and ordered a Disney WOW DVD (on the cheap) from Ebay. When I tried it after the AVS 709 calibration, it was basically spot on already, even the blue filter color test. This is using brightness of 60, contrast of 90, color of 42. I think Im using a color temp of "cool" to reduce the amount of red in the whites at this level of contrast. The tint is at 50/50.

I found several scenes in Netflix "Breaking Bad" content where my old settings were clipping white and black detail. Using properly calibrated settings really do make content look better as you can see so much more color, light, and shadow detail/gradation. The little bit of dithering you get on blacks at these levels is unnoticable at normal viewing distances and is well worth the ability to display all the details properly.
Those settings seem way off from what has worked for others with meters trying to calibrate for Rec 709. Cool color balance is wayyyyy too cool. Heck, even Warm 1 is too cool in comparison to D65 white point. Brightness of 60 is also very high. I can see it being beneficial in bright room viewing but in dark room viewing, Brightness of ~ 48 should still be enough to distinguish between different black levels.

I am also surprised with a color setting of 42. 50 is spot on in Movie mode, and 44(or 46, can't recollect at the moment) is spot on in Standard mode. Did you use Blue mode on TV and the flashing color bar/block pattern in AVS 709 to determine your color setting?

PS - Make sure your Blu Ray player isn't modifying the content before it gets to the TV. If it is, that could very well explain why your TV settings are quite different from what others have arrived at with these panels.
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post #1036 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 02:14 PM
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Those settings seem way off from what has worked for others with meters trying to calibrate for Rec 709. Cool color balance is wayyyyy too cool. Heck, even Warm 1 is too cool in comparison to D65 white point. Brightness of 60 is also very high. I can see it being beneficial in bright room viewing but in dark room viewing, Brightness of ~ 48 should still be enough to distinguish between different black levels.

I am also surprised with a color setting of 42. 50 is spot on in Movie mode, and 44(or 46, can't recollect at the moment) is spot on in Standard mode. Did you use Blue mode on TV and the flashing color bar/block pattern in AVS 709 to determine your color setting?

PS - Make sure your Blu Ray player isn't modifying the content before it gets to the TV. If it is, that could very well explain why your TV settings are quite different from what others have arrived at with these panels.
I went through and checked the Blu Ray player (a recent model Sony) settings and cant find anything that indicates its modifying the signal. On the AVS 709 disc I used the flashing color bars and set the color to where I could see/differentiate all the flashing bars up to the 100% level. When I got the WOW disc (after calibrating with the 709) I used the blue filter test to check the colors and tint and it was perfect.

If I didnt use "cool" settings, the flashing white bars on the contrast tool on the AVS 709 disc had a reddish tint to them when setting contrast above 83 or so-- the only way to remedy that was to use cool color temp-- this did not negatively affect my color settings according to the blue filter or color clipping test.

I found that Warm 1 and 2 gave the entire picture a greenish/reddish tint and just plain looked nasty, in addition to making the whites very red. I may jump to the next HDMI port and start from default settings to see if anything is different, as I believe I had adjusted some white balance and /or color previously (based on others cal posts on the forum), and this may well be why I had to go this route to get it proper. I'll check into it and post later.
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post #1037 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 03:55 PM
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Just to remind everyone this is a 2014 "B" model. Just tried the other HDMI port, did a full RESET on it first, and ended up with very close to the same settings. Using STANDARD preset as a starting point:

Brightness 56 - below this you clip blacks if there are any significant whites on the scene, verified with AVS 709. This is the minimum-- going to 60 gives even better black detail when some whites are on the screen. You can verify this by using the pattern that has both the white and black bars flashing on the same screen.

Contrast 93- You can go higher without clipping whites on a white screen (95 or 96), but going higher than 93 causes color gradations to clip on the AVS 709 screen that has the flashing red, green, and blue bars all on the same screen, as well as the non-flashing color gradation bar.

Color-- 42 - This color is needed in conjunction with Tint Gr44/R56 to get the chroma/hue pattern blues to look identical with both the WOW DVD blue filter AND just using pure blue on the RGB only function on the TV. Going higher also clips colors on the flashing color gradation bars on the AVS 709.

Tint - Gr44/R56 - used as described above to achieve proper chroma/hue on both cal discs.

About the color temp-- once again I find the flashing whites on the AVS white clipping test have a slight rusty tint to them on anything other than COOL. The color temps dont seem to affect the Chroma/hue test patterns on either the WOW or the AVS 709 discs, so Im not sure what you guys mean when saying WARM or WARM 2 must be used to achieve proper color. Using COOL makes the flashing white bars on the contrast test look grey on the dark end as they should-- its my understanding if they begin to look orangish/rusty, the contrast may be oversaturating/clipping. The only way I get a contrast of 93 without the rusty tint is to use COOL.

Note I did not mess with 2 or 10pt white balance settings or any of the other advanced settings, they were all left at default. Im not even sure how they are supposed to be used to begin with, but they are not necessary to achieve what the AVS 709 and Disney WOW discs ask you to do.

BTW, using these settings, both blu ray and dvd disks and Netflix HD look preposterously good, not sure changing anything else would really be necessary.

Last edited by Josh128; 08-31-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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post #1038 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 04:40 PM
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Got to disagree with you there, Cool color temperature looks horrible. On my 60F5300, the correct brightness setting with 95 contrast and -1 gamma is 48 for 23hz with Cinema Smooth on, and 50 for 23hz with Cinema Smooth off/60hz. I know it's a personal preference but Cool color temp won't give you a proper calibration. I also get 50 for color and 50/50 for tint using AVS calibration disk.

I know you have the 50" set, but brightness set to 56-60 on my tv would cause dithering so bad the picture would be washed out.
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post #1039 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 05:39 PM
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Got to disagree with you there, Cool color temperature looks horrible. On my 60F5300, the correct brightness setting with 95 contrast and -1 gamma is 48 for 23hz with Cinema Smooth on, and 50 for 23hz with Cinema Smooth off/60hz. I know it's a personal preference but Cool color temp won't give you a proper calibration. I also get 50 for color and 50/50 for tint using AVS calibration disk.

I know you have the 50" set, but brightness set to 56-60 on my tv would cause dithering so bad the picture would be washed out.
Was watching a live action sports DVD this evening and some white banners and boards had just the slightest hint of blue tint, so I changed to color temp STANDARD and it seemed to eliminate the blue tint on the whites and made other colors appear a little richer. I really think its down to personal preference, at least with these cal DVDs, because it doesnt seem to affect the chroma/hue tests much if at all by changing it.

As far as the brightness, color, and contrast, that may simply be down to my Sony Blu Ray player I guess. Its a BDP-S3100. So, when watching the R, G, B flashing bars on the AVS disk, you say you can see them all flash ( to the 100% mark, like, the 8th or 10th one from the left, dont remember) with a color of 50 and a contrast of 95? Thats just not happening with my BDP-S3100. Neither will you see all the black detail at brightness of 48, especially if there is also white on the screen as in the black/white flashing bar test in the AVS disc.

For my original HDMI port settings, I am using a gamma of -1, for this recent setup I just posted, I left it at 0.
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post #1040 of 1685 Old 08-31-2014, 09:52 PM
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I have a B spec PN60F5300, and while not this tv, everything I've seen so far with my settings v/s those by some here with meters seems to match. Your settings seem considerably off, and it could very well be correct for your panel but I am a bit surprised as it does not match my experience nor that of many others who have been calibrating these sets.

However, I just noticed that you are working with Standard mode and that is probably not the best choice to begin with. Why not use Movie mode? It is much more true to a calibrated out of box setup. Standard mode out of the box has way too much color saturation as I recall amongst some other things. I was able to rectify it with custom CMS settings, but that is not something you can really do unless you have a meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Just to remind everyone this is a 2014 "B" model. Just tried the other HDMI port, did a full RESET on it first, and ended up with very close to the same settings. Using STANDARD preset as a starting point:
As mentioned above, I'd recommend Movie mode instead of Standard.

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Brightness 56 - below this you clip blacks if there are any significant whites on the scene, verified with AVS 709. This is the minimum-- going to 60 gives even better black detail when some whites are on the screen. You can verify this by using the pattern that has both the white and black bars flashing on the same screen.
I think this is actually deceptive as what you are likely seeing is perceptual clipping, not true clipping. At 47-48 I see the green dithering haze on all black screens (or black background on the AVS 709 black clipping pattern) disappear. The bar for 17 still flashes with a dithering pattern (needs to be viewed in a dark room). When I play the APL clipping pattern, at first glance it "appears" that some of the black is clipping. However, if I shade my eyes from the white pattern, or go up close to the TV, I can see that level 17 is still flashing with a dithering pattern within the box. It's just that your eyes have a hard time distinguishing it, due to the limited dynamic range of our eyes when we also have something bright on screen.

While it is true that boosting Brightness past 60 can help you see black level 17 clearly in this situation, it results in a horribly large increase in overall black levels. I would not recommend such high brightness settings unless you were viewing in bright room conditions. Even then, I would calibrate for Dark room viewing and then use the Gamma control slider to adjust for bright room viewing.

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Contrast 93- You can go higher without clipping whites on a white screen (95 or 96), but going higher than 93 causes color gradations to clip on the AVS 709 screen that has the flashing red, green, and blue bars all on the same screen, as well as the non-flashing color gradation bar.
I don't see it clip at 95 but the penultimate bars are not perhaps as clearly distinguishable as when contrast is dropped to ~93. It's a bit subjective when eyeballing using patterns, so either setting should be fine. I definitely don't see color clipping though.

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Color-- 42 - This color is needed in conjunction with Tint Gr44/R56 to get the chroma/hue pattern blues to look identical with both the WOW DVD blue filter AND just using pure blue on the RGB only function on the TV. Going higher also clips colors on the flashing color gradation bars on the AVS 709.

Tint - Gr44/R56 - used as described above to achieve proper chroma/hue on both cal discs.
I don't think you need to use any filters since the RGB color mode set to Blue is far more accurate than using filters. With custom CMS settings using my meter, Color 44 is the correct setting on Standard mode and this has been confirmed independently to me by a few other folks who have also calibrated Standard mode with a meter. That results in no flashing blocks on the AVS 709 Flashing Color Bars pattern (with Blue only mode). Your custom tint settings might perhaps change this to 42.


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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
About the color temp-- once again I find the flashing whites on the AVS white clipping test have a slight rusty tint to them on anything other than COOL. The color temps dont seem to affect the Chroma/hue test patterns on either the WOW or the AVS 709 discs, so Im not sure what you guys mean when saying WARM or WARM 2 must be used to achieve proper color. Using COOL makes the flashing white bars on the contrast test look grey on the dark end as they should-- its my understanding if they begin to look orangish/rusty, the contrast may be oversaturating/clipping. The only way I get a contrast of 93 without the rusty tint is to use COOL.
This I can almost guarantee you that it is "wrong" as far as a calibrated image goes that is true to the rec 709 spec and what the director intends for an audience to see. You are trying to visually eyeball color temp and neutral white and that is pretty much impossible to do by eye. I can guarantee you that Cool setting is horribly high in overall blue levels and I just don't see how you could have accurate skin tones, etc, at that setting. Warm 2 is the closest out of box setting to match 6500K/D65. If you choose to use Cool because it looks good to your eyes, that is certainly fine, but I assure you that your colors are going to be off compared to what it should be if you were trying to meet a spec with calibration.

Warm 2 will seem yellowish, and even a bit dirty at first, but your eyes will adapt rapidly when viewing images to compensate for it. It is only when you rapidly switch between the color temp presets that one looks much duller/yellowish than the other.

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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Note I did not mess with 2 or 10pt white balance settings or any of the other advanced settings, they were all left at default. Im not even sure how they are supposed to be used to begin with, but they are not necessary to achieve what the AVS 709 and Disney WOW discs ask you to do.
Yeah, no point messing with any of that unless you have a meter. Personally, Warm2, Contrast 95, Cell 20, Brightness ~48, Color 50, Movie mode with Auto ColorSpace and Black Optimizer on Dark room is the best you can get without a meter to a reasonably calibrated setup. Minor tweaks on top of that using AVS 709 patterns might gain you a bit more, but from my experience that is close to the best you can do without a meter (or hiring someone to calibrate your set).

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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
BTW, using these settings, both blu ray and dvd disks and Netflix HD look preposterously good, not sure changing anything else would really be necessary.
As I mentioned, ultimately whatever looks good to you is the most important thing, especially when you don't have the means to perform a proper calibration. I just wanted to point out that your settings are unlikely to be close to accurate to the rec 709 spec though, so if you care about that, you may have to play around some more.
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post #1041 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by l8mdl87 View Post
There should be a sticker on the back of the set showing both the model number and the panel number. Shouldn't be too hard to find...
My TV is wall mounted, so I can't check the back. Could anyone tell me about the meu differences with the B model?

Also, when you say B model, do you mean that whole "afxa" vs "bfxa" in the serial number or is that a different thing? I'm assuming I have the old model anyway, as I was able to update the firmware, despite buying the TV in 2014.
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post #1042 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I have a B spec PN60F5300, and while not this tv, everything I've seen so far with my settings v/s those by some here with meters seems to match.Your settings seem considerably off, and it could very well be correct for your panel but I am a bit surprised as it does not match my experience nor that of many others who have been calibrating these sets.
Everything you wrote was spot on. No need for me to even expand further.

It's fine to use cool color temp if that is what you like, but it's nowhere near the correct 6500K color temperature for calibration. I wouldn't be surprised if it's 10K or above. I used to be someone who hated warm color temp years ago, but after trying it out and getting used to it, I can't believe how blue the whites look in standard or cool now.
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post #1043 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I think this is actually deceptive as what you are likely seeing is perceptual clipping, not true clipping. At 47-48 I see the green dithering haze on all black screens (or black background on the AVS 709 black clipping pattern) disappear. The bar for 17 still flashes with a dithering pattern (needs to be viewed in a dark room). When I play the APL clipping pattern, at first glance it "appears" that some of the black is clipping. However, if I shade my eyes from the white pattern, or go up close to the TV, I can see that level 17 is still flashing with a dithering pattern within the box. It's just that your eyes have a hard time distinguishing it, due to the limited dynamic range of our eyes when we also have something bright on screen.

While it is true that boosting Brightness past 60 can help you see black level 17 clearly in this situation, it results in a horribly large increase in overall black levels. I would not recommend such high brightness settings unless you were viewing in bright room conditions. Even then, I would calibrate for Dark room viewing and then use the Gamma control slider to adjust for bright room viewing.
At the brightness levels you posted, I can only see the "outline" of dithering in the second to last black bar to ideal on the complete black screen-- it is not well defined and its my opinion that shades of that black in real content would not be visible-- this is further backed up by your comment on "perceptual clipping". This is another reason why I have it turned up to the level I have it-- on the screen with both the white and black flashers, at a level of 47-48, there are at least 4 or 5 black bars on each side of center that are not visible at all-- if you can see them on this screen, then you also wont see the shadow detail that those levels represent in real content either! At the level I set, there are only about 2 bars each side of center that I cant make out when the white is on the screen. So I will be able to see way more shadow detail at this setting, and it shows in real content as well. I played around with this using the "300 Rise " Blu-Ray, which is a black-crushing monster, full of high contrasting images. Contrary to what many are posting, my image doesnt look "washed out" in the least with these brightness settings, even in a darkened room, the difference in an all black screen is negligable to the lower brightness settings- the only difference is a slight bit of dithering on an all black screen visible only if up close-- the actual luminance difference of the screen from normal viewing distance over a non-dithering full black screen is not even noticable to me, its no where close to a "washed out" look. Again, I'd much rather a bit of dithering on 0 black than crushed black detail in my content-- this set will crush blacks ruthlessly if you are not careful.


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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I don't see it clip at 95 but the penultimate bars are not perhaps as clearly distinguishable as when contrast is dropped to ~93. It's a bit subjective when eyeballing using patterns, so either setting should be fine. I definitely don't see color clipping though.
The contrast and color work together for the color clipping test-- I can go to contrast of 95 or higher and not clip colors if I turn the color down even more-- but then the blue filter/blue screen color bars will be off. As I have it, I can just barely see the penultimate color bars flash, and I can see all the gradations on the non-flashing color bar screen flash.

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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I don't think you need to use any filters since the RGB color mode set to Blue is far more accurate than using filters. With custom CMS settings using my meter, Color 44 is the correct setting on Standard mode and this has been confirmed independently to me by a few other folks who have also calibrated Standard mode with a meter. That results in no flashing blocks on the AVS 709 Flashing Color Bars pattern (with Blue only mode). Your custom tint settings might perhaps change this to 42.
Not sure how its much more accurate, because when I set using either one, the other is spot on. I just used both to double check each other.


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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
This I can almost guarantee you that it is "wrong" as far as a calibrated image goes that is true to the rec 709 spec and what the director intends for an audience to see. You are trying to visually eyeball color temp and neutral white and that is pretty much impossible to do by eye. I can guarantee you that Cool setting is horribly high in overall blue levels and I just don't see how you could have accurate skin tones, etc, at that setting. Warm 2 is the closest out of box setting to match 6500K/D65. If you choose to use Cool because it looks good to your eyes, that is certainly fine, but I assure you that your colors are going to be off compared to what it should be if you were trying to meet a spec with calibration.
But dont the blue filter and /or blue screen tests properly set so that the colors merge give you accurate colors and skin tones? The tint adjustment in particular has the most impact on skin tones according to both the WOW instructions and just about everything I read on the net-- so if I set that properly why wouldnt the colors be accurate? Isnt that the very point of the flashing color bar test? I watched 2 episodes of Breaking Bad on Netflix last night and the skin tones look perfect by my eyes. Not too red, not too pale. Now, I completely understand that cool settings will not give me 6500K color temp whites, and as mentioned in the previous post I noticed they looked a bit blue, so I changed the temp to the standard preset and I do find the whites dont look so cool anymore.

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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Warm 2 will seem yellowish, and even a bit dirty at first, but your eyes will adapt rapidly when viewing images to compensate for it. It is only when you rapidly switch between the color temp presets that one looks much duller/yellowish than the other.
I also found Movie mode, perhaps because it uses a Warm preset, also looks yellowish/dirty and thats why I started with the standard preset. Based on this feed back I may try to run the disks with the Movie preset, just to see how it affects the settings compared to the Standard one-- I bet thats the reason for the discrepancy.

Last edited by Josh128; 09-01-2014 at 06:46 AM.
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post #1044 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 07:10 AM
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One more data point with my 51F5300 B model for what it's worth - using the AVS 709 basic patterns on a USB stick, my brightness level is accurate at 47 with gamma at 0, and 48 with gamma at -1. Blue screen with flashing bars shows that Movie mode is accurate at 50, and Standard mode is accurate at 45 with no tint adjustment. I see others are using 44 with Standard mode, but to my eyes 45 is slightly more accurate, and I'll just chalk that up to slight panel variation.

The picture quality is excellent out of the box in movie mode once the basic settings are dialed in. Not sure I'll even bother with a more advanced calibration with meters.
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post #1045 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JarvisKong View Post
My TV is wall mounted, so I can't check the back. Could anyone tell me about the meu differences with the B model?

Also, when you say B model, do you mean that whole "afxa" vs "bfxa" in the serial number or is that a different thing? I'm assuming I have the old model anyway, as I was able to update the firmware, despite buying the TV in 2014.
The firmware update means you have an afxza. Samsung has not issued any firmware update for the B model.
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post #1046 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by djsketchie View Post
One more data point with my 51F5300 B model for what it's worth - using the AVS 709 basic patterns on a USB stick, my brightness level is accurate at 47 with gamma at 0, and 48 with gamma at -1. Blue screen with flashing bars shows that Movie mode is accurate at 50, and Standard mode is accurate at 45 with no tint adjustment. I see others are using 44 with Standard mode, but to my eyes 45 is slightly more accurate, and I'll just chalk that up to slight panel variation.

The picture quality is excellent out of the box in movie mode once the basic settings are dialed in. Not sure I'll even bother with a more advanced calibration with meters.
And to add some additional data, I have the European F4900 (a 3d version of the F4500 with 20000:1 on/off (black optimiser auto)(15000:1 BO off) and 5500:1 ANSI contrast.


I agree about Standard mode colour being 44, I have an i1 display 3 and an i1 Pro Rev D.
Black level also changes depending on the output, for example:
60hz=0.0068cdm^2
96hz=0.029cdm^2
100hz=0.03cdm^2 (50hz content plays back at 100hz to reduce flicker)

So the brightness setting needs changing depending on the source, PC mode needs 47 for me, 44 for everything else (default is 45).

The sharpness can be set by using the AVS709 black clipping pattern, set brightness, then increase sharpness until you start seeing dithering around the point where 16 was, then back down, I get '5'.

Here are some out of the box measurements for greyscale.
Warm 2 completely default:
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=22point8;24681160]

Warm 1

Standard

Standard Calibrated to 9300K (x0.283 y0.298)

Standard Calibrated to 9300 using 10point

R Offset: 17
G Offset: 25
B Offset: 22
R Gain: 19
G Gain: 25
B Gain: 19

10p White Balance

Interval 2: R1 G1 B-1
Interval 4: R-1 G2 B0
Interval 5: R-2 G0 B-2
Interval 6: R-2 G2 B1
Interval 7: R-2 G1 B-2
Interval 9: R0 G-2 B2

Last edited by 22point8; 09-01-2014 at 08:15 AM.
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post #1047 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 08:40 AM
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But dont the blue filter and /or blue screen tests properly set so that the colors merge give you accurate colors and skin tones?
No, just the primary colors, though they are the most important.
It sounds like you're very happy with your picture, so just enjoy it. You can calibrate it to death and still not be happy, so you may as well be happy.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1048 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 22point8 View Post
Standard Calibrated to 9300K (x0.283 y0.298)


Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1049 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 09:26 AM
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Its a japanese broadcast standard (I think Japanese TV manufacturers decided that would be a consumer standard to sell nice bright TVs and actually used 6500K for mastering with EBU colour rather that NTSC), my Sony PVM CRTS have 6500 and 9300 presets. The standard colour temp on Samsungs is factory set to 10500K (read it in a Samsung service manual).

Last edited by 22point8; 09-01-2014 at 09:31 AM.
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post #1050 of 1685 Old 09-01-2014, 11:30 AM
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Brightness 47 in Movie mode on my a model shows 17 and up on a half white and half black clipping patttern. Around 45 does for an all black clipping patttern.
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