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post #1 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Long story, short I got my first plasma (Panasonic P65S60) about 3 weeks ago, and it's been stressing me out ever since between IR and Linebleed. I broke it in using D-Nice's slides for 120hrs before I did anything with it.

I'm slowly getting over IR, as I realized I was just SUPER paranoid about it, and actually only noticed it when I went out of my way to see it by loading solid colored slides.

But now linebleed is cropping up, and in some cases "I" consider pretty bad. First few times were just on TV commercials with bright white text and solid colored backgrounds. They were just ads, so eh I can live with it. Now I'm slowly more and more noticing it in more things, things most would consider "normal" viewing. Watching Star Trek Into Darkness on blu-ray, it was fine the whole movie, except the part where they land on the Klingon planet, and the text comes up saying where they are, which cause brief massive lines thru Uhura's face.

Here's an example I was able to get a pic of, which I realize maybe not severe but I noticed it right away, and it was more noticeable as he moved his head. This is from Orange is the New Black on Netflix, notice the large darker bars on the orange wall, or more so the narrow "brighter" orange bands (which are the normal color of the wall in other shots).




Since then I've tried some new settings and it's toned down how much I notice it quite a bit, but I'm still noticing it fairly often. The worst by far was last night, when I started playing Assassin's Creed 4 on PS4. Here's some pics, notice the white line that extends from the health bar all the way across the ENTIRE screen!





Now I'm getting really ticked off! These were VERY blatant and more noticeable seeing the game in motion than in these pics. Granted I don't get it in darker scenes like in the jungle and such, but the majority of this game is bright. I also don't quite understand the dark lines in the 2nd pic, as I thought line bleed was basically horizontal lines in a screen share power, and brighter images, especially white, use the most power, thus basically "lowering" the brightness of the rest of the row as the brightest section is using up the most power for that row. But maybe I've understood it wrong, but more times than not I usually noticed it off of black parts of the image than bright.

Talking with a friend who has had a plasma for almost 3 yrs now he says he has never noticed IR or linebleed since he's had it. I showed him my pics of AC4 and his reaction was "Wow, WTF is that?". He even sent me a picture of his AC4, on his PS4, on his plasma (42" Panasonic ST30) which as you can see below has not such problems. Granted not the EXACT same part of the game, but still a light sky is where it's the most obvious on mine.




So my question is, is my linebleed I'm getting now consider "severe" or "normal"? As I read over at TweakGuide (http://www.tweakguides.com/HDTV_10.html) "Line bleed is an inherent part of plasma technology and is not considered a fault unless severe." I'm thinking something is wrong with mine, as this can't be "normal" for all of you who are experienced plasma users. Are there settings that affect how visible it is at all? I know there's not a magic "off" but curious if I need to adjust something or not. And if this is "normal" then well, I'd say this nullifies any benefit of deeper black levels and I probably need to return it for an LCD/LED then. Which is exactly what I'm debating about right now, this is really stressing me out, as I have about 15 days left to return/exchange it. If my 6yr Sony DLP hadn't died I'd still be using that. I thought a new TV would be as simple as that thing was, I turn it on and use it, never have to think about the TV at all till the bulb or in this case color panel goes out.

But anyway, I'd like some expert help with this problem/dilemma. I'd really like to know more of exactly what causes linebleed, but I'm not finding much detailed information on it, maybe I suck at googling. And what settings can affect it's visibility the most. And what pp's opinions are on my situation.

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks.
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post #2 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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48 views and nothing? No one has any input for me?
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post #3 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 05:57 PM
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Try just running some full screen content for 24 hours or so. If you're getting line bleed (not sure I see it in the pictures), try reducing the contrast a few notches. Make sure you have 1080p direct turned off and sharpness set to zero (preferably in cinema or custom mode).
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post #4 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 06:02 PM
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I have a 2012 panasonic plasma that behaves similar to yours in regards to line bleed. It hasn't got any better with age, and I cant find any settings to get rid of it. Some other members have posted similar findings with their panasonic plasmas. Try posting in the official S60 thread as well, maybe someone there has a ps4 with the same game and can see if they see line bleed from the health bar as well. Then you will atleast know if something is up with your panel or not.
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post #5 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 06:08 PM
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I think what you're actually seeing is banding - not line bleed. Unfortunately, the S60s limited steps of gradation does result in some noticeable banding in some content (especially games and animation). Your best bet at minimizing it is again to make sure 1080p direct is set to off because having it on artificially sharpens the picture (i.e. adds noise) and also set the sharpness to zero. *Noise in the image makes the banding more overtly noticeable.

BTW, one of the reasons you see banding on the S60 but don't on earlier plasmas is because the dynamic range (i.e. the black levels) go so much deeper on the S60, thus the limited steps of gradation become more transparent, where as banding is largely masked by a display with washed out blacks.

You have an excellent TV, and I can tell you having owned the ST50 series, the S60 series is far more resistant to image retention.
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post #6 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 06:14 PM
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What is your contrast setting? I wouldn't go above 85, and always use/calibrate in Custom or Cinema mode. Avoid the other modes.
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post #7 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizman7 View Post

The worst by far was last night, when I started playing Assassin's Creed 4 on PS4. Here's some pics, notice the white line that extends from the health bar all the way across the ENTIRE screen!

Is this visible 'line' unique to this game or do you see it with all content?
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post #8 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizman7 View Post

48 views and nothing? No one has any input for me?

I have a 65VT60 with a PS4 and Assassins Creed IV. I do notice line bleeding on my TV in general, but not like your pictures with this particular game. I can check again when I play tonight, but I'm sure I would have noticed it.

I'll tell you what though, I'd be more worried about getting IR from this game. I have some stubborn IR from playing this game, from the health meter like in your pictures, and the bright white indicators on left and right of the mini-map. This particular IR can be seen on the lighter gray slides.
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post #9 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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RWetmore, to answer your questions

  • I'm pretty confident it is line bleed, it extents from the health bar in both directions (left and right) across the screen. And moving the camera angle around the line stays in the same place, which I don't think would be banding as there isn't suppose to be a solid line across the screen as my friend's picture shows (the last one in my original post).
  • There is also options to turn off each part of the HUD individually in this game, and if I turn off the health bar (kind of an important thing) the line goes away as well.
  • Direct Pixel 1080p has never been on.
  • The settings I was using at the time of these pictures was 100 Contrast. But I switched to these settings after linebleed was much more noticeable in other viewing, like TV shows when the previous settings had contrast at 80. I switched to CNets settings tonight (contrast of 83) and so far it the linebleed from the health bar seems much more subdued. It's still there there though, pretty much any white/light-grey sky in the game and it's very noticeable, but a tad less than it was before, and I have seen the really bad white line with these settings, like shown in my first picture.
  • I've noticed a tiny bit of linebleed in other games, but usually just with menus and even then it's pretty minor. I've noticed it the most when I watch TV via my HD Antenna, perhaps it's not as "pure" (for lack of better word) a signal and it's exaggerating it a bit? I just know one show a metal shelf behind a woman resulted in a massive 3" thick white bar across her face during a close up which was horrible.
  • My set has about 350hrs on it total now, and I would say well over 200 of those hours were running the D-Nice's slides. Did 120hrs straight when I first got it, then I've run them over night many, many times since I started using it, and sometimes while I'm at work for 10hrs. It's got a lot of hours of full screen content on it.

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Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I have a 65VT60 with a PS4 and Assassins Creed IV. I do notice line bleeding on my TV in general, but not like your pictures with this particular game. I can check again when I play tonight, but I'm sure I would have noticed it.

I'll tell you what though, I'd be more worried about getting IR from this game. I have some stubborn IR from playing this game, from the health meter like in your pictures, and the bright white indicators on left and right of the mini-map. This particular IR can be seen on the lighter gray slides.

Yeah I'd appreciate that, to see what you see. I don't really have any IR issues with this game or most, as I always have the Pixel Orbiter set to ON, as AUTO is basically OFF from what I've read. Having it set to ON makes a HUGE difference when it comes to IR for games, I learned the hard way one night when I accidentally had it off (aka Auto). With it off you get very clear cut precise carbon copies of the HUD, with it set to ON you just get kinda grey smears/blobs/areas that usually go away with screen wiper or slides. I usually run the screen wiper for 5-15mins when I'm done with a game (if not going into other full screen content like a movie or something) and then usually check with the slides just to ease my mind. There's rarely anything on the slides after that, again if there is it's just grey-ish blobs that come out after running the slides a bit, sometimes 10mins other times I just let them run over night.
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post #10 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 06:31 AM
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I checked and I do have line bleed as well on mine. Mybe not quite as pronounced as yours, but still there. I did fret about this line bleed a bit when I first got my panel, but when I checked other store displays of the same model and found similar amounts of line bleed, I figured it was par for the course. Not sure if you exchanded it you'd get one that was better in this regard....

As for the IR , I know what you mean about the smudges. That is what I have on mine from the mini-map, only that after hours of the screen wipe and other methods the smudges can still be seen on a gray slide. I do say it has gotten better, but still there if I look hard for it. I have since turned overscan on so the min-map is in a different location and turned my contrast way way down to like 40. I also set the sleep timer for 90 minnutes and run the screen wipe when I'm done playing. I also now have turned off the health bar, as I can play fine without it. That's probable why I haven't noticed the line bleed as much.
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post #11 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 11:05 AM
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Dizman7,

Do you have pixel orbiter on Auto?
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post #12 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 01:18 PM
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I have line bleed on my ST60. Visible with a full field green screen with white lettering. Same as the one's for the movie trailers the MPAA rating screen. It is not visible with normal content. If it is line bleed that you are seeing then this is very common on plasmas and not to be worried about it it's a normal limitation of the technology. Now some line bleed can be worese then others.
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post #13 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Dizman7,

Do you have pixel orbiter on Auto?

No, I have set to "ON". Either way the linebleed is still there, I've tried.

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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

I have line bleed on my ST60. Visible with a full field green screen with white lettering. Same as the one's for the movie trailers the MPAA rating screen. It is not visible with normal content. If it is line bleed that you are seeing then this is very common on plasmas and not to be worried about it it's a normal limitation of the technology. Now some line bleed can be worese then others.

This is what I keep hearing over and over from plasma users, but I'm seeing it (sometimes badly) in NORMAL content! Playing a game is normal content, watching a blu-ray movie is normal content, and having a streak/bar across the entire screen like this is NOT normal to me, and seems ridiculous if that is what people consider normal. I'm trying to determine if mine is worse than an average plasma or not.

I tried the CNet settings last night, seems to have subdued it quite a bit, still there, but not nearly as noticeable....so far. Also picture looks a lot better than the settings I was using before. I'll continue to play/test it out more.
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post #14 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizman7 View Post

This is what I keep hearing over and over from plasma users, but I'm seeing it (sometimes badly) in NORMAL content! Playing a game is normal content, watching a blu-ray movie is normal content, and having a streak/bar across the entire screen like this is NOT normal to me, and seems ridiculous if that is what people consider normal. I'm trying to determine if mine is worse than an average plasma or not.

I tried the CNet settings last night, seems to have subdued it quite a bit, still there, but not nearly as noticeable....so far. Also picture looks a lot better than the settings I was using before. I'll continue to play/test it out more.

About the line bleed, you will definitely see it in "normal" content, some more than others. In general, it should be rare, especially once you stop checking to see if it's present when you think it might be, like when a character appears next to window blinds, or in animation like Family Guy. That's for video. For computer desktop usage, I find it to be present pretty much always, so I would not use a plasma as a PC monitor for any significant length of time for this and several other reasons including IR, buzzing, flicker, and energy usage. I imagine some games could be problematic as well.

As for settings, you'd probably be better off setting Brightness/Contrast/Color/Tint/Sharpness with a setup disc like the free AVS HD 709 or Disney WoW. The latter does come with a blue filter for setting Color/Tint. The settings determined for one TV often don't transfer well to other samples, so plugging in Cnet, D-Nice, etc is a crapshoot, especially the advanced settings like CMS and white balance. See this message for more on that:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1500578/d-nice-settings-vs-calibration-disk#post_23971241
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post #15 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

About the line bleed, you will definitely see it in "normal" content, some more than others. In general, it should be rare, especially once you stop checking to see if it's present when you think it might be, like when a character appears next to window blinds, or in animation like Family Guy. That's for video. For computer desktop usage, I find it to be present pretty much always, so I would not use a plasma as a PC monitor for any significant length of time for this and several other reasons including IR, buzzing, flicker, and energy usage. I imagine some games could be problematic as well.

As for settings, you'd probably be better off setting Brightness/Contrast/Color/Tint/Sharpness with a setup disc like the free AVS HD 709 or Disney WoW. The latter does come with a blue filter for setting Color/Tint. The settings determined for one TV often don't transfer well to other samples, so plugging in Cnet, D-Nice, etc is a crapshoot, especially the advanced settings like CMS and white balance. See this message for more on that:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1500578/d-nice-settings-vs-calibration-disk#post_23971241

Hmmm, I have DVE HD Basics blu-ray, is this one good enough? I haven't used it in a few years, I'm a noob at DIY calbiration, so not sure if it has all the test to properly calibrate this plasma. I've thought about getting the Disney WoW disc just for the pixel flipper alone though, so if it's better for calibration too it wouldn't take much to twist my arm to get it. smile.gif

My friend's 42" ST30 doesn't get any sort of linebleed of the same health bar in the same game, on the same system. So I've thought it's either I just don't have something set right, or I may have a defective plasma, as I had read most manufacturers don't consider linebleed an issue, UNLESS "severe", which I'm trying to figure out if maybe mine falls into that.
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post #16 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 05:14 PM
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Yes, it's possible you may have a defective set.
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post #17 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizman7 View Post

Hmmm, I have DVE HD Basics blu-ray, is this one good enough? I haven't used it in a few years, I'm a noob at DIY calbiration, so not sure if it has all the test to properly calibrate this plasma. I've thought about getting the Disney WoW disc just for the pixel flipper alone though, so if it's better for calibration too it wouldn't take much to twist my arm to get it. smile.gif

I don't know anything about DVE. I think the free AVS HD 709 pattern set is simpler and more straightforward than WoW, and the main reason I mentioned WoW is that it comes with a blue filter. Spears and Munsil 2nd Ed also comes with the filter, and while better than WoW in a number of ways, it's a bit more technical. If you already have a filter, just use AVS.
Quote:
My friend's 42" ST30 doesn't get any sort of linebleed of the same health bar in the same game, on the same system. So I've thought it's either I just don't have something set right, or I may have a defective plasma, as I had read most manufacturers don't consider linebleed an issue, UNLESS "severe", which I'm trying to figure out if maybe mine falls into that.

Take screenshots (not photos!) of the problem scenes and post them along with the major TV settings, the things on the first page of the menu. Then people can see how bad it is on their own sets and get back to you.
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