Yet another "lay it down" thread... for a Pioneer 141FD... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 48 Old 01-02-2014, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I know this has been beaten to death I'm sure, but long story short, I stumbled across a pretty ridiculous deal on a PRO-141FD on ebay the other day that I almost thought was a scam. It was so cheap that I clicked the buy it now without even thinking twice as I could tell by the counter I was only the second person who had viewed the page. Turns out the gentleman was incredibly nice and accomodating, and great to deal with. He had it in a media room that was never completed as he has several properties, and he said he had watched it maybe a total of 50 hours since new. Yes, FIVE ZERO, not even 500.

Now here's the rub. I'm in MO and this guy was in FL and only offered local pickup. Fine, I thought, this gives me a chance to get out of this god awful state in the winter so I'll take a road trip down and go get the thing. Even in the Lincoln Aviator I was driving down and its relatively horrible fuel economy, if everything the guy said was true, at the price I got the TV for the trip cost was still well worth it.

So I finally get to the guy's house and take a look at everything. It's exactly as promised, looks mint, has the original remote and presentation box with all the documents in it, Nov 2008 build so even a later one, to boot. All well and good...

Well, until it came time to get it in the car... Having transported a Sharp Elite LCD in this very same vehicle from Chicago to Saint Louis last week and knowing that the vertical dimensions of the two sets were within maybe an inch and a half on the published specs, I figured I'd be able to at least get it in at a slant like I had the Sharp Elite. No dice. At least in all the commotion of pick up it just didn't seem like the same method was going to work. And now I'm 1200 miles from home and I can't just rent a van and leave my vehicle here. So everyone keeps insisting I lay it flat and I kept refusing. But eventually I just had to relent as it was either that, or leave the TV and come back somehow. At this point the gentleman had had SEVERAL emails that came in after the fact I'm sure offering more than what I paid to try and convince him to let it go to them, so I wasn't comfortable leaving the TV behind.

As it is, we laid it flat and put several soft cushioning towels and blankets under it. We traveled a short distance already from Miami up to Royal Palm Beach to visit some friends, and as best as I can tell or hear, I haven't heard any flexing or popping noises or anything. Regardless, I am convinced it needs to come out of that position before the long journey home. However my travel partner and everyone else keeps telling me that having it at a slant is no better as far as physics are concerned than being completely flat and that as long as I'm not going to have it completely vertical (which just won't work) it may as well be flat, and just add some pillows under it to isolate it even further from the car movements.

I'm really at a loss as to what to do here. I don't even so much care about the cost of the TV as that was barely more than your average 60 inch LCD. But knowing that this thing is essentially irreplaceable, I'd feel like a total ass if I went and destroyed it by being careless. So given that I basically HAVE to get this thing back up to MO in this vehicle, I need opinions on whether resting diagonal really won't be any better than laying flat. It has always been my opinion that the basis of not transporting flat is that you create a tremendous amount of surface tension on the glass uniquely in that position that puts it at the greatest risk of breaking. This is fine unless you begin to add movement into the picture and then you have a real potential for trouble. So it would seem that even a diagonal slant would have to be far more preferable to completely flat. Though I am then essentially connecting the TV with the car's body, and transferring every bump and jolt directly through it.
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post #2 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone? Getting back on the road today.
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post #3 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 08:48 AM
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Anyone? Getting back on the road today.

The issue with transporting the TV flat is that if the car hits a severe bump or dip that may cause the TV to "bounce" up off the floor and that can cause damage to the panel or even the electronic boards inside as all this is designed to be supported in an upright position. Another issue would be if the TV wasn't evenly and fully supported underneath the whole rear panel.

So my thinking is that the TV would be safer being transported diagonally instead of flat. The more upright you can get it the safer it would be. I would actually buy a piece of thick plywood that's big enough to slide into the back of your Aviator and use it as a flat consistent platform to evenly support the TV as upright as possible, then lay some thick quilts or blankets or foam etc to help cushion the TV, then lay the TV face up with the back of it resting on the foam/blankets/quilts. I'd even go so far as to screw some pieces of 2x4 vertically along the underside of the plywood platform as reinforcements to keep it from bowing under the weight of the TV. If you do this, take into account the thickness of the TV so that it's not so upright that it hits the ceiling of the SUV.
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post #4 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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The issue with transporting the TV flat is that if the car hits a severe bump or dip that may cause the TV to "bounce" up off the floor and that can cause damage to the panel or even the electronic boards inside as all this is designed to be supported in an upright position. Another issue would be if the TV wasn't evenly and fully supported underneath the whole rear panel.

So my thinking is that the TV would be safer being transported diagonally instead of flat. The more upright you can get it the safer it would be. I would actually buy a piece of thick plywood that's big enough to slide into the back of your Aviator and use it as a flat consistent platform to evenly support the TV as upright as possible, then lay some thick quilts or blankets or foam etc to help cushion the TV, then lay the TV face up with the back of it resting on the foam/blankets/quilts. I'd even go so far as to screw some pieces of 2x4 vertically along the underside of the plywood platform as reinforcements to keep it from bowing under the weight of the TV. If you do this, take into account the thickness of the TV so that it's not so upright that it hits the ceiling of the SUV.

Thanks, Randy.

This is the suggestion I was looking for.

In its current state, the TV *is* very evenly supported on the underside, with plenty of cushioning along the entire underside of the back, but your suggestions for getting as vertical as possible would make me more comfortable.
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post #5 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post

Thanks, Randy.

This is the suggestion I was looking for.

In its current state, the TV *is* very evenly supported on the underside, with plenty of cushioning along the entire underside of the back, but your suggestions for getting as vertical as possible would make me more comfortable.

Well you don't want too much cushioning as it may cause a sort of "trampoline" effect where the TV is rythymically bouncing on the cushion more than the SUV's suspension is actually bouncing on the highway.

As as a BMW Club Of America High Performance Driving Instructor, i can't help but give driving advice - drive smooth, like you're transporting explosives wink.gif I'd drive more in the left lanes as they tend to be smoother and in better condition. The right lanes tend to be bumpier and damaged and patched etc due to years of abuse by big rigs. Look far ahead for problems or debris in the road so that you don't get surprised and have to swerve suddenly or run over a brick or tire tread carcass. Watch the cars that you're following to see if they swerve around something or bounce over large bumps or dips or undulations in your lane so you can slow down in time, and give plenty of distance from that car so you can see more of the road ahead and also to give yourself time to react.

But i've hung two Pioneers for friends (5020FD and 6020FD) and these TVs are tanks - very solid. And in all my years here on AVS i've seen countless posts from people who have successfully transported TVs flat but i can only remember a few that actually broke their TV doing so. I've transported many of em flat or at and angle and never had a problem so that should give some comfort.

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post #6 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Well you don't want too much cushioning as it may cause a sort of "trampoline" effect where the TV is rythymically bouncing on the cushion more than the SUV's suspension is actually bouncing on the highway.

As as a BMW Club Of America High Performance Driving Instructor, i can't help but give driving advice - drive smooth, like you're transporting explosives wink.gif I'd drive more in the left lanes as they tend to be smoother and in better condition. The right lanes tend to be bumpier and damaged and patched etc due to years of abuse by big rigs. Look far ahead for problems or debris in the road so that you don't get surprised and have to swerve suddenly or run over a brick or tire tread carcass. Watch the cars that you're following to see if they swerve around something or bounce over large bumps or dips or undulations in your lane so you can slow down in time, and give plenty of distance from that car so you can see more of the road ahead and also to give yourself time to react.

But i've hung two Pioneers for friends (5020FD and 6020FD) and these TVs are tanks - very solid. And in all my years here on AVS i've seen countless posts from people who have successfully transported TVs flat but i can only remember a few that actually broke their TV doing so. I've transported many of em flat or at and angle and never had a problem so that should give some comfort.

We would get along great. I love BMWs. My favorites are the '80s and '90s models and I recently got in a '95 840Ci at my little lot that I'm getting ready for sale. It's nothing special in terms of what the monster of the 850CSi is, but I've had a hell of a lot of fun with it the past couple of weeks. Other favorites include the E38 7s, the E46s, E30s etc. Basically the cars I grew up admiring.

Anyhow, I digress. It struck me what you said about the build of these things. One thing that I noticed was how quiet the darn frame of the TV is when I would (carefully) move it around. Instead of the "creak creak" stress noises I'm accustomed to hearing it's just dead silent. When I had the Sharp Elite back there I was on pins and needles because the whole TV shook and rattled over every little bump.

In a little bit I'm going to go outside and assess this one more time. Thanks again for all the tips.
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post #7 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 01:12 PM
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I saw the listing on ebay, $1,000 is an absolute steal for that tv if you lived in South FL but is that roughly a 2,000 mile round trip? Holy hell, make sure you drive the speed limit in the left hand lane and pray lol. I would be nervous driving a plasma in suv that far. Assuming you get the TV back and there is no issues you'll still come out ahead.
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post #8 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I saw the listing on ebay, $1,000 is an absolute steal for that tv if you lived in South FL but is that roughly a 2,000 mile round trip? Holy hell, make sure you drive the speed limit in the left hand lane and pray lol. I would be nervous driving a plasma in suv that far. Assuming you get the TV back and there is no issues you'll still come out ahead.

Ill admit that sometimes I can be a real sucker for a challenge lol. I keep feeling like I got in over my head with this one, but we'll see how it turns out. Another big piece was just an excuse to get away from the cold weather and see some friends we'd promised to visit for a long time, so it's definitely a multi-faceted trip beyond just the TV.

Wish me every ounce of luck you can muster.
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post #9 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 01:57 PM
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Is it in the box or is it not fitting out of the box?

If it's in the box, what if you removed the top of the box so you'd have more headroom?
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post #10 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 02:04 PM
 
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If it were with the box, he'd need a pick-up or a truck rental. wink.gif
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post #11 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 06:01 PM
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Can you weigh down the plywood and bungie cord the tv to the plywood? Great score on that tv. You will not regret the effort.

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post #12 of 48 Old 01-03-2014, 06:25 PM
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Great story. Let us know how you make out. I bet the TV will be fine.
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post #13 of 48 Old 01-04-2014, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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The long stretch is today. I'll let everyone know what happens, good or bad, hopefully by late tonight.
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post #14 of 48 Old 01-04-2014, 09:43 AM
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I don't know of I am too late for any advice, but I agree with Randy.

My vector math is rusty, but basically the closer to perpendicular to the ground,( i.e. parallel to the force of gravity) the less force will be exerted perpendicular to the screen. It involves triangles, cosines, sines, and other stuff I can hardly remember to figure the actual numbers, but in principle, the closer to vertical the better. Also the tighter the fit the better. Bouncing around is bad.

Have a good trip.

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post #15 of 48 Old 01-05-2014, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, my eyes are bloodshot, my back is 10 years older and my sanity is half gone, but somehow, here it is (stand not here yet)...

So far it looks wonderful. I haven't (yet) detected any dead pixels or IR, and I think I even got it connected to the network (more on that in a moment). Of course I've had a Sony plasma before where it ran fine when cold but after warming up would get those lines down a portion of the display. So we'll see how it runs for several hours.

Now, as for the networking thing. I have obtained an IP address from the network, and the lights on the Ethernet port are blinking, but I can NOT get kuroreader to connect to it from windows xp via parallels in osx. I can't even get it to ping in either osx OR windows. My understanding is this is my only way to verify the usage hours, so any tips are appreciated...



Pardon the angle (and the mess, furniture and all is still in limbo), had to stand on my bed to take it.
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post #16 of 48 Old 01-05-2014, 08:22 AM
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Most excellent. Glad you both made it home in one piece.

"Why we getting new washer?", my 3 yr old daughter Riley upon seeing our new FV15HP.
"He blowed up." Riley watching Looney Tunes.
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post #17 of 48 Old 01-05-2014, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. This TV is amazing.

Some updates: As I figured, the TV has about 2500 hours. In a way I don't mind this because if it was really at just 50 hours I'd have essentially a new TV but also the potential for things to go wrong that I'd have no course of action to fix. This way I know the TV is nice and broken in, but not used heavily by any means. I don't believe the seller was intentionally dishonest (and in fact the ad only says "very little use"), and I'm just glad he appears to have taken good care of it.

This TV is *heavy*. I'm going to have to get a piece of furniture sturdy enough to hold it. I have a makeshift shelf my Elite LCD is on (that one gets picked up tomorrow and swapped for a ZT60 that originally was going to be the TV I kept until this crazy Kuro deal showed up) and it has a honeycomb construction that been strong enough to hold TV's up to about 90lb. I simply do not trust it with the KURO.

Now, a question. I know you will all say just go and read the thread but I try to avoid that as it's the best way to get paranoid and crazy about things that sometimes aren't worth the worry. I noticed that there's a "red tint" problem thread that's gaining traction here. Is this something I need to proactively look for and does it make it not worth keeping if it has it?

Thanks to all of you, and especially to Randy for giving me peace of mind on my trip. By the time I got to Tennessee I wasn't even worried about the TV anymore. It was a complete trooper through the entire trip and I think it's solidity was a big key to this. I think a Panasonic, with as thin and somewhat flimsy as they've become, would have made me MUCH more nervous to take on a cross country trek without perfect support and the proper vehicle.

I wish I had the budget to keep both TVs, but ultimately I am going to have to decide upon several factors, including the Panasonic's full warranty but also the Panasonic's susceptibility to IR which I can already tell the KURO is masterful at resisting. I didn't cancel my ZT delivery because I got a wonderful deal on that one, too. Because they're honoring my open box 10 percent coupon, this TV, which actually was my TV originally bought new (long story, it's in the deals thread) will end up being about 1700.00. So it's not as easy a decision as it seems. The next few days will be interesting!
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post #18 of 48 Old 01-05-2014, 04:27 PM
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Is wall-mounting not an option? Damn thing is beautiful on the wall. smile.gif

Next is a professional calibration... wink.gif

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post #19 of 48 Old 01-05-2014, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Is wall-mounting not an option? Damn thing is beautiful on the wall. smile.gif

Next is a professional calibration... wink.gif

Was considering it, but already ordered the PDK-1015 stand and I live in an apartment so probably best to stick with a stand arrangement for now. It is a gorgeous design, no argument there.
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post #20 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Some observations on the Kuro versus ZT60 now that I've been able to spend some time with the Kuro on my makeshift setup...



First off, let me get it out of the way now. IR on the Elite blows the ZT out of the water. I left "Velocity" on all night after I fell asleep and some 7 hours later there was virtually no trace of the velocity logo even on a full white screen. If I leave the Panasonic on all night it would take another day or so to fully "wash" that from the screen watching other content. Of course, if you keep your Panasonic in the media room and use it mostly to watch movies, this is an absolute non issue. But be aware, it is there.

The Elite's other strong suit is beautiful shadow detail. I was worried about this because I had read that the shadow detail was an area where the Panasonic had a visible hand over the elite, with the elite "crushing" grays to black. This is a well broken in TV, and I don't see any shadow detail problems at all. It's very very good.

Color performance is also spectacular on the Elite. I applied D-Nice's settings and I have to be honest, I'm going back and forth as to whether the plain old factory Pure setting out of the box isn't actually a little better (not a knock against D-Nice, but probably goes to show why just applying someone else's settings is not always a fruitful endeavor. On the Sharp Elite, it was the completely opposite experience. Horrible color on factory presets.)

With all that said. When it comes to outright "pop" and envelopment in the experience, the Panasonic just has the edge here. And I sustain that this is an advantage specific to the ZT because of the optically bonded glass. The Elite also purports to have some kind of first surface glass bonding of the color filter, but the ZT just has something about it that makes you not want to look away from the screen when great content is on. Surprisingly, the Sharp Elite LCD also gets an honorable mention here. Its spectacular uniformity for an LCD turns the inherent glow of LCD into an advantage, though only spot on dead center.

The ZT also has tremendously more flexibility because the 141FD is a simple monitor. So when I use something like my Chromecast, I'm completely SOL because I love my old Elite receiver which doesn't have HDMI inputs. So there is no practical way to get sound from the Chromecast as there is with the cable box and Apple TV which have optical outs of their own. I get that the 141 doesn't include speakers, but it could not have hurt to build in a coax or optical output. Puzzling omission.

Worth mentioning as well is the fact that the Elite weighs damn near 150lb with the stand attached (that stand btw, is made in Japan! i can see why Pioneer was losing money on this division going so far as to make and ship such a commodity part as a stand from Japan, but its a gorgeous piece) and after looking at so many modern TVs, has a ginormous bezel that while beautiful, is a bit distracting during the day with its high gloss finish. Nod actually goes to the Sharp Elite's beautiful matte bezel here.

All in all, the Elite still takes the edge here, and it is a very slight one because of its tremendous resistance to IR which makes it a better fit for me. When it comes to IQ, at least for my type of watching, the Panasonic is no doubt a match. It's also lighter, more flexible and arguably (I say arguably because of the chrome on the Panasonic) less distracting in daytime settings. The Panasonic also has an out of the box THX Mode that to my eye needs zero tweaking.

While you can't easily find Elites anymore, at least not with warranty support, you CAN still possibly find open box Sharp Elites at BB. And I feel that TV, even in this plasma centric battlefield, deserves an honorable mention if you need something where IR is a complete non starter. It will require professional Calibration or good tweaking with someone else's settings to look right, however.
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post #21 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 12:40 PM
 
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^The last great 3 TVs to be made in the early 21st century (sorry, Samsung lovers). Thanks for your honest assessment and yet another reminder that the Kuro has met its match. Seems the only remotely affordable choices in the near future come from *gulp* Vizio who is trying its hand at Sharp Eliting now...I can't say I'm not intrigued.
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post #22 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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^The last great 3 TVs to be made in the early 21st century (sorry, Samsung lovers). Thanks for your honest assessment and yet another reminder that the Kuro has met its match. Seems the only remotely affordable choices in the near future come from *gulp* Vizio who is trying its hand at Sharp Eliting now...I can't say I'm not intrigued.

No problem smile.gif I'm sure I'll take some heat from someone for my observations or not being a professional calibrator or something, but I know what looks natural to my eye, and when detail is lost. That's enough to make an honest comparison between the two (three) sets. I didn't feel it was fair to include the F8500 because it's not within easy reach at my brother's place.

One thing I also forgot to mention about the Panny... The red phosphor (which I believe the VT60 shares) doesn't get a lot of mention, but it could also be a key to the ZT's overall pop in conjunction with that optically bonded glass surface.

And now we bide our time or OLED...
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post #23 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 12:58 PM
 
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Good point on the red phosphor, that's no doubt possible. And I *hope* the naysayers see this comparison...it's just the latest in a long line of similar reports, showing that it's not just paid shills who feel this way. The comparison between my 111FD and the ZT60 involved a very similar impression.
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post #24 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 02:05 PM
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All in all, the Elite still takes the edge here, and it is a very slight one because of its tremendous resistance to IR which makes it a better fit for me. When it comes to IQ, at least for my type of watching, the Panasonic is no doubt a match. It's also lighter, more flexible and arguably (I say arguably because of the chrome on the Panasonic) less distracting in daytime settings. The Panasonic also has an out of the box THX Mode that to my eye needs zero tweaking.


Im glad you got it back. IR aside, if you were to sit down and watch a movie which display would you watch it on or is it basically a wash because they are too close?In otherwords is anyone more enjoyable if any?



p.s. You're right, it is good in a way it has 2500 hours instead of 50 but it's hilarious the guy was that much off on the hours. I think the reason his media room never got finished is because the guys doing construction were busy watching the Kuro and not working.
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post #25 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 02:36 PM
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Get your 141 calibrated and open up the ISF modes , that adds much more pop to the PQ , if you can get D-Nice out and lower the black level of your display you will move up several steps in PQ . Nice find on the best 60" plasma ever .
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post #26 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Im glad you got it back. IR aside, if you were to sit down and watch a movie which display would you watch it on or is it basically a wash because they are too close?In otherwords is anyone more enjoyable if any?



p.s. You're right, it is good in a way it has 2500 hours instead of 50 but it's hilarious the guy was that much off on the hours. I think the reason his media room never got finished is because the guys doing construction were busy watching the Kuro and not working.

Movies probably KURO, cable TV would be Panny (at least unless I do what was mentioned above).

And yeah no kidding. Although, my eyes are about to pop out of my head after reading 22 pages (I finally had to stop) of that kuro red tint thread. I need to do a more thorough check to be sure this display doesn't have that, but if it doesn't I'll be even more glad this one has some hours on it. If it had been truly 50 hours and I got the red tint later I would have been pretty upset.
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post #27 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 04:04 PM
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Was considering it, but already ordered the PDK-1015 stand and I live in an apartment so probably best to stick with a stand arrangement for now. It is a gorgeous design, no argument there.

Where did you get your hands on a PDK-1015? eBay?
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post #28 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Where did you get your hands on a PDK-1015? eBay?

Yeah. It was 75 bucks plus shipping band new in the box. Works perfectly and even has a nice little curve on it at the front. I was surprised to see when the box showed up that it was actually made in Japan.

The stand on the Sharp is a joke compared to that monster.
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post #29 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 04:18 PM
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Yeah. It was 75 bucks plus shipping band new in the box. Works perfectly and even has a nice little curve on it at the front. I was surprised to see when the box showed up that it was actually made in Japan.

The stand on the Sharp is a joke compared to that monster.

Funny, I was gonna pull the trigger on that exact listing when it went down to 75 bucks even though I don't own a 60 inch Kuro... yet. Been hunting for one for a while now and wanted to safeguard myself in case I bought one without a stand. Glad to hear it ended up with someone who needed it more. I'll second the advice of having D-Nice calibrate your set. The guy is a magician and worked wonders with my 101-FD.
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post #30 of 48 Old 01-07-2014, 04:22 PM
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As an owner of a 141, I can assure you that the set is capable of much more than you are getting out of it. Please contact D-Nice.

Louder is NOT better!
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