Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post


because blacks were nowhere near their tweaked state smile.gif

Lowering FS1D by the same amount you raise FSAD helps.

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Old 03-31-2014, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post

From my testings YKNOFSAD needs to be raised to get your aging algorithms back in sync with the panel. Following the service manual FSAD recovery charts confirms this, it should go up around 30 clicks.

 

Put every voltage to default and do a full reset (if you already did a reset).

Put the pattern mask 23 on 72Hz, by issuing commands FAY, MKSS23, VFQS05.

 

Raise FSAD until sparkles disappear buy issuing VYFxxx (VYF155 for instance), go slowly when almost there, step by step and stop when you don't see sparkles anymore.

Lower YKNOFS1D the same amount you raised YKNOFSAD (V1Fxxx).

 

Remove the mask (MKSS00) and quit service menu (FAN), power off and back on, and give it a try.

 

So far adjusting that way gave me the best results since I reset in overall picture quality, sharpness and sense of depth.

 

But you can't expect OLED blacks that way you will still have some glow in a pitch black room, so does a brand new Kuro.


Exactly what i did a few years ago on the before it was sold 500A - except i used the factory remote method. Magic number for FSA for me was 152 or 153

Although I needed to adjust SUS up a bit, and my FS1D was 114 along with a couple of tweaks on the X & Y SUS service menu voltages
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post

Lowering FS1D by the same amount you raise FSAD helps.

Which would be the equivalent of keeping SAD at 128 and simply increasing S1, S3 and S4, then reducing S1.

I had very good success keeping SAD and S4 at default and simply lowering S1 and S3 (the separation between these two must be kept intact IMO, as manipulating it causes loss of detail near black). However, I will continue with default voltages until I reach the 200 hour mark, then I will start tweaking.
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:45 PM
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Another method I've tried that removed IR and black rain is to reset with defaults then increase S1, S3 and S4 until magenta sparkles disappear. My final value was close to the final value I got when following the SAD flowchart in the service manual, though I opted to adjust S1, S3 and S4 in unison instead of SAD. The final values using the flowchart were usually +10 over the values I would end up using combi mask 7, so there is some wiggle room when using the flowchart final values as a starting point for tweaking.

I found that I could use lower values for S1, S3 and S4 to lower blacks and undo any ensuing magenta sparkles by increasing SUS. However, reducing S1, S3 and S4 brought back the black rain.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post


Magic number for FSA for me was 152 or 153

 

156 on mine, still trying to get the best value around that one, but it's very sensitive on colors near black and pale human faces (vampire diaries or person of interest tv shows are pretty good in that purpose).

To not lower S1 might have some cool effects on lights, especially sunshine, but you get solarization around people's hairs, which might look cool but isn't natural.

 

I tweaked down S3 a bit too which made some weird near black colors look more natural, very sensitivie setting too, went from 128 to 125.

 

These settings effects cannot be spotted on a still picture, a whole scene must be watchedin order to find out the difference (the lower APL the better).

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Old 04-01-2014, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Are you seeing black rain/lag or image retention?

Also, when you reduced S1, S3 and S4 prior to reset, did you also set RSTP to 2?

Nope, luckily no black rain or IR.

I did get IR if not almost BI a couple of months ago prior to tinkering though. We had 10 consecutive days over 30 degrees Celsius (>86 F) and after one particularly hot night the Panel had been left on a Fox Sports Channel..and probably because the Panel's temp was really high I did end up with IR. A couple of days of a 100% white field managed to clean it up though.

As for RST P; it was always set to 01..no head-room there..what I didn't try is the RST P reset to 00 on it's own prior to resetting the meters. I'll never know..
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post

From my testings YKNOFSAD needs to be raised to get your aging algorithms back in sync with the panel. Following the service manual FSAD recovery charts confirms this, it should go up around 30 clicks.

Put every voltage to default and do a full reset (if you already did a reset).
Put the pattern mask 23 on 72Hz, by issuing commands FAY, MKSS23, VFQS05.

Raise FSAD until sparkles disappear buy issuing VYFxxx (VYF155 for instance), go slowly when almost there, step by step and stop when you don't see sparkles anymore.
Lower YKNOFS1D the same amount you raised YKNOFSAD (V1Fxxx).

Remove the mask (MKSS00) and quit service menu (FAN), power off and back on, and give it a try.

So far adjusting that way gave me the best results since I reset in overall picture quality, sharpness and sense of depth.

But you can't expect OLED blacks that way you will still have some glow in a pitch black room, so does a brand new Kuro.

Thanks will try this later.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:47 AM
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Ok tried Inarbi's method.

First of all using pattern mask 23 is ineffective in diagnosing misfires.

I went up to 151 (from 128) using it which seemed to do the job but as soon as I defaulted to my Mac desktop with it's white background it was Magenta Misfires Central..

Only by lowering YSUS-B & XSUS-B was I able to get rid of them.

Anyway I stuck with the recommended process lowering FS1 by 24 and powering down.

Well no dice..red tint back and black levels up. Tried lowering FS4 by the same amount to match and there was an appreciable difference but nowhere near what I had with my initial reset and voltage values..same noise/dither, no change in picture depth but higher black levels and red tint visible.

So I performed another reset with everything to default and then just lowered YSUS-B & XSUS-B by 3 and 6 respectively, which straight away got rid of the misfires and then lowered S1, S3 and S4 by 20, staying within limits.. and the glorious picture was back.

Now I may totally be doing things outside of stated protocol and could be potentially ruining my panel for the future but my initial method just feels right. I know my panel well and this just seems the right way.

Thanks again for all your help guys.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post

156 on mine, still trying to get the best value around that one, but it's very sensitive on colors near black and pale human faces (vampire diaries or person of interest tv shows are pretty good in that purpose).
To not lower S1 might have some cool effects on lights, especially sunshine, but you get solarization around people's hairs, which might look cool but isn't natural.

I tweaked down S3 a bit too which made some weird near black colors look more natural, very sensitivie setting too, went from 128 to 125.

These settings effects cannot be spotted on a still picture, a whole scene must be watchedin order to find out the difference (the lower APL the better).

These are settings are quite familiar to me which i used for the 500A, i guess there will be some which behave quite similar - and others miles away. It's a game this stuff eh smile.gif

The A's behave differently to M's after resets seemingly because they are driven a bit differently elsewhere in CPU memory and in PANEL FUNCTION. I haven't needed to touch this quite new 500M as of yet (except) for FS4D. Which i lowered by ten at the beginning of last month because of artefacts on COMBI pattern 7. And yesterday raised it back up five to 144 from my initial tweak of 139...Mainly because i was viewing an all black signal and noticed some inconsistencies in the middle of the monitor panel (a bit blotchy). Raising up by five "fixed" that problem - but introduced a bit of magenta misfires on the right hand side of COMBI pattern 7. But it's minimal and i prefer uniform black screen. I don't see any issues anywhere with that pattern in relation to normal viewing content. It's just that pattern with 60VS,72 & 75 1&2.

I don't know if that noise in that one pattern is relevant to future red tint - because that is the approximate area where the tint starts (voltage related) if it indeed does as the hours go by.

But reducing YKNOFS4D on my newish 500M (1168 hrs) by five clicks to 144 (first tweak was 139) from the initial default of 149 reduces the right hand side misfires on that specific pattern by approximately 75% and leaves me with uniform clean black across the whole panel so it's getting left where it is, with my fingers crossed for the future.

Anyway from what i can gather the 500A after reset introduces magenta misfires on moving imagery nearly every time - the more hours used previously (phosphor ageing) the more that artefact is apparent. Certainly what people have told me post reset anyway. Whilst the 500M and 101FD monitors don't or not nearly as much as other KURO models. Certainly it's the impression i get from reading many many posts/opinions.

So on my ex 500A i needed to raise YKNOFSA 25 clicks post reset to stop misfires with moving images. And SUS up approximately the same. Whilst lowering the first subfield to 114 to clean up white misfiring in/near black completely.

I lowered FS3D by five just as an experiment basically and lowered X SUS to 127 and Y SUS to 126 to clean up the remaining misfires.

And that was it basically for my ex Kuro, darker than new, but no misfires anywhere or black on menu's or movie bars taking a second to wake up after everything else which was pleasing.

That artifact you described - the one with the hair - is that an artifact visible on pristine bluray - or just broadcast SD & HD ?
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:53 AM
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That artifact you described - the one with the hair - is that an artifact visible on pristine bluray - or just broadcast SD & HD ?

Both ;)

It's not seen as an artifact, just something that doesn't sound natural (I double checked in cinema viewing captain america). Imo if Christie projs don't produce that effect, it's that it shouldn't be there.

It can be seen on black hairs in sunlight, the surroundings of the head should be enlightenend, but do not give the sense to produce some light (don't know if I make myself understandable).

 

Funny thing is that on my panel, I never had any misfire on normal content, except combi 06-07, pattern 23 29 30.

But I went to see a guy with the same Kuro I own (earlier model than mine, with the same SM values as pg_ice), and took the laptop to check everything I could, on a never touched LX5090H, with 10k hours.

He had elevated blacks, first signs of slight red tint, but I checked all these patterns, and they were all perfectly clean, in all modes. From that I assumed that I shouldn't see them on mine either.

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Old 04-01-2014, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post

Both wink.gif
It's not seen as an artifact, just something that doesn't sound natural (I double checked in cinema viewing captain america). Imo if Christie projs don't produce that effect, it's that it shouldn't be there.
It can be seen on black hairs in sunlight, the surroundings of the head should be enlightenend, but do not give the sense to produce some light (don't know if I make myself understandable).

Funny thing is that on my panel, I never had any misfire on normal content, except combi 06-07, pattern 23 29 30.
But I went to see a guy with the same Kuro I own (earlier model than mine, with the same SM values as pg_ice), and took the laptop to check everything I could, on a never touched LX5090H, with 10k hours.
He had elevated blacks, first signs of slight red tint, but I checked all these patterns, and they were all perfectly clean, in all modes. From that I assumed that I shouldn't see them on mine either.

It is interesting right enough.

On the old KURO i scrutinised it from every angle, distance and lighting situation for artefacts and post reset dithering mainly near black. And can't remember seeing what you describe. But like you know the KURO'S (certainly in Europe) are as good as it gets for on board SD processing with broadcast TV (576i/p). Of course DVD's with a KURO with a decent source player are fabulous too if set up correctly.

But what I was getting at was it could have been compression artefacts due to the low bit rate broadcasting in SD, poorer HD "1080i" broadcast can suffer from this as well... Noticeable around thing's like hair - and edges of objects. But not with clean as glass sharp razor bluray transfers (some anyway). What i love about the KURO'S is the unbeatable processing, what you see on screen (comes over the air or through the cables) is what you get... But it isn't that then in your case so must be driving related of some description presumably bud
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Old 04-01-2014, 11:10 AM
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I was getting that effect while leaving FS1D at default value and raising FSAD, but with FS1D lowered the same amount everything's fine.

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Old 04-01-2014, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leggoslave View Post

Ok tried Inarbi's method.

First of all using pattern mask 23 is ineffective in diagnosing misfires.

I went up to 151 (from 128) using it which seemed to do the job but as soon as I defaulted to my Mac desktop with it's white background it was Magenta Misfires Central..

Only by lowering YSUS-B & XSUS-B was I able to get rid of them.

Anyway I stuck with the recommended process lowering FS1 by 24 and powering down.

Well no dice..red tint back and black levels up. Tried lowering FS4 by the same amount to match and there was an appreciable difference but nowhere near what I had with my initial reset and voltage values..same noise/dither, no change in picture depth but higher black levels and red tint visible.

So I performed another reset with everything to default and then just lowered YSUS-B & XSUS-B by 3 and 6 respectively, which straight away got rid of the misfires and then lowered S1, S3 and S4 by 20, staying within limits.. and the glorious picture was back.

Now I may totally be doing things outside of stated protocol and could be potentially ruining my panel for the future but my initial method just feels right. I know my panel well and this just seems the right way.

Thanks again for all your help guys.

I'm keeping your method in my back pocket. I'm too far into the aging process to perform yet another reset (or tweaks) to try this out. I'm still skeptical as to how there is no black rain on your set after reset with RSTP at 1 AND S1, S3 and S4 reduced by 20. My set has black rain even with default settings after reset, and I did play with Y-SUS and X-SUS, moving them up and down, with no luck removing black rain. Only way to remove it is to increase RSTP or S1, S3 and S4.

Put on a letterbox film for about 45 minutes and hit the menu button on your remote. If you have black rain, the menu will "fizzle in" in the top black bar all while popping up normally below the black bar. LMK.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:08 PM
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it's possible to view things WHILE raising and decreasing voltages right? or do i need to exit the factory menu every time i want to check the picture out/pattern masks?
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:14 PM
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Yes using RS232 commands in hyperterminal, but you need to change the picture mode in SM which is factory default, to the one you use, at least, with the PAVSxx command, look in the service manual, values for each mode are given.

In the panel-1 menu it's difficult because too many settings change compared to standard service menu.

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Old 04-02-2014, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

I'm keeping your method in my back pocket. I'm too far into the aging process to perform yet another reset (or tweaks) to try this out. I'm still skeptical as to how there is no black rain on your set after reset with RSTP at 1 AND S1, S3 and S4 reduced by 20. My set has black rain even with default settings after reset, and I did play with Y-SUS and X-SUS, moving them up and down, with no luck removing black rain. Only way to remove it is to increase RSTP or S1, S3 and S4.

Put on a letterbox film for about 45 minutes and hit the menu button on your remote. If you have black rain, the menu will "fizzle in" in the top black bar all while popping up normally below the black bar. LMK.


No "fizzle in" on the menu here. No detectable black rain. Perhaps different panels coupled with different ages just react differently post reset? Maybe just give your set some more time to adjust before dropping RST P back down.

I have noticed though just a smidgeon of red tint right down the bottom edge of the panel on no signal..it's really unnoticeable on normal viewing but if anyone knows how to clear that up too please advise.

All in all I'm happy where I am with it at the moment. Just hope it sticks and stays this way for an extended period of time.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:03 AM
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Does this only work for 8G and 9G? We own an 507XD, does this work for that one as well?

Purchased the TV 2nd hand and to be honest have been wondering lately if it's really performing the way it should, as I find the black levels are not at all that impressive, actually worse than on a recently bought Sony LED screen... have to say the living room isn't "all dark", could that be the reason? I see very clearly that the black bars in movies and overall blackness of the picture is much lighter and greyer than the screen bezel.

Cheers
//J
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leggoslave View Post

No "fizzle in" on the menu here. No detectable black rain. Perhaps different panels coupled with different ages just react differently post reset? Maybe just give your set some more time to adjust before dropping RST P back down.

I have noticed though just a smidgeon of red tint right down the bottom edge of the panel on no signal..it's really unnoticeable on normal viewing but if anyone knows how to clear that up too please advise.

All in all I'm happy where I am with it at the moment. Just hope it sticks and stays this way for an extended period of time.

If you are already at minimum values for RSTP and S1, 3 and 4, then you *could* try going below the minimum on 1, 3 and 4 (though I wouldn't) or perform a reset to get more headroom (I wouldn't do that either).

Better to just deal with it if its not visible in content, especially since you're not afflicted with black rain.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JorisS View Post

Does this only work for 8G and 9G? We own an 507XD, does this work for that one as well?

Purchased the TV 2nd hand and to be honest have been wondering lately if it's really performing the way it should, as I find the black levels are not at all that impressive, actually worse than on a recently bought Sony LED screen... have to say the living room isn't "all dark", could that be the reason? I see very clearly that the black bars in movies and overall blackness of the picture is much lighter and greyer than the screen bezel.

Cheers
//J

ShockFett has performed the tweak (not reset) successfully on an 8G Kuro.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

ShockFett has performed the tweak (not reset) successfully on an 8G Kuro.
but a 507 is 7g:eek:

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Old 04-05-2014, 02:58 AM
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but a 507 is 7g:eek:

That's what I was thinking wink.gif

Any idea if it would work on that one?

In general, from my description, does that sound like a KURO performance? To be honest I've never really bothered all too much initially and I've never done any calibrations on it. Even so it's quite disappointing to me now that I have other devices to compare it to. Had a Panasonic plasma as well (1-2 generations older) that actually didn't look much worse blacks-wise.
Put it like this - I bought it second hand at a decent price several years ago, but I'd never have paid the full price for it given it's performance. Could the previous owner have messed up something somewhere? Or could this be caused by transporting the TV in a flat horizontal position during a couple of hours?


I think I'll take it off its wall-mount and put it in the cinema room some day soon to have a check there, as that's a room I can darken completely.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:08 AM
 
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It wouldn't surprise me if a recently purchased Sony LED (what's the model # if you have it handy?) is darker by default than a 7G Kuro.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It wouldn't surprise me if a recently purchased Sony LED (what's the model # if you have it handy?) is darker by default than a 7G Kuro.

Actually it's a Samsung, just woke up lol rolleyes.gif

I'm not at home so can't check, it's from 2011/2012 and in the better range - 200Hz, 3D, full HD etc, new price at the time around 1300€.
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It wouldn't surprise me if a recently purchased Sony LED (what's the model # if you have it handy?) is darker by default than a 7G Kuro.
7G Kuro? confused.gif
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keiji haino View Post

it's possible to view things WHILE raising and decreasing voltages right? or do i need to exit the factory menu every time i want to check the picture out/pattern masks?

When you are in the service menu - use the remote to go to an internal Pioneer testing pattern of your choice, press enter, then press right on the remote to select what frequency you require - 60VS in this case... Press enter on the remote, move back up to PAN 1 ADJ, press enter, adjust your voltage of choice, press enter again to see immediate results/effects of your VOL adjustments on whatever pattern you have chosen.

Can also be done when material is running in the background of this all happening if you wish too.

Once you have finished - close the pattern by pressing up or down until it says off... Then switch to standby by pressing standby button on remote
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:30 PM
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Was wondering if you have any insight into these values (141fd 60" monitor) also if lower blacks likely through just a simple tweak of the prst and 1,3,4 or would I be looking at a full reset?

Also how to get into the service menu, (sorry lots of questions) but contralcal apparently will do the TVs but not the monitors, so do I need to purchase a special remote or can I enter the values through kuro reader?

Help much appreciated, regards T.

0 ECO: QAJ
1 Vsus adjustment value: 128
2 Vysnofs adjustment value: 068
3 Vyprst adjustment value: 034
4 Vxpofs1 adjustment value: 105
5 Vxpofs2 adjustment value: 063
6 Vyknofs1,2 adjustment value: 086
7 Vyknofs3 adjustment value: 096
8 Vyknofs4 adjustment value: 143
9 Vyknofs1,2/3/4 adjustment value: 128
10 Reser
Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

If you are already at minimum values for RSTP and S1, 3 and 4, then you *could* try going below the minimum on 1, 3 and 4 (though I wouldn't) or perform a reset to get more headroom (I wouldn't do that either).

Better to just deal with it if its not visible in content, especially since you're not afflicted with black rain.
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by transendance View Post

Was wondering if you have any insight into these values (141fd 60" monitor) also if lower blacks likely through just a simple tweak of the prst and 1,3,4 or would I be looking at a full reset?

Also how to get into the service menu, (sorry lots of questions) but contralcal apparently will do the TVs but not the monitors, so do I need to purchase a special remote or can I enter the values through kuro reader?

Help much appreciated, regards T.

0 ECO: QAJ
1 Vsus adjustment value: 128
2 Vysnofs adjustment value: 068
3 Vyprst adjustment value: 034
4 Vxpofs1 adjustment value: 105
5 Vxpofs2 adjustment value: 063
6 Vyknofs1,2 adjustment value: 086
7 Vyknofs3 adjustment value: 096
8 Vyknofs4 adjustment value: 143
9 Vyknofs1,2/3/4 adjustment value: 128
10 Reser

Use Kuro Control to communicate with the KURO.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1240606/kurocontrol-program-for-pioneer-krp500m-600m-and-elites

Get yourself an ethernet cable or the below adapter and cable.

• USB to RS232 Adapter

http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-RS-232-Serial-Converter-TU-S9/dp/B0007T27H8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389882111&sr=8-1&keywords=straight+rs232+serial+cable

• Straight through RS232 Serial Cable (not a null modem cable). Make sure to get the right gender.

Male to Female
http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10-Feet-Straight-Through-Serial/dp/B000A7NROO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1389886710&sr=8-2&keywords=straight+rs232+serial+cable

Female to Female
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00066HP2E/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Once you have connected your PC to the Kuro using your equipment of choice, open Kuro Control.

Issue "fay" to enter the service menu.

Issue "facs01" to display the service menu overlay.

GO TO PANEL FACTORY should be highlighted at this point. Press enter on the remote to access the panel factory menu. If it is not highlighted, press the PAGE UP or PAGE DOWN buttons on the remote.

Press the DOWN ARROW button on the remote until you see PANEL – 1 ADJ (+) at the bottom of the screen and press enter on the remote.

Press the DOWN ARROW button on the remote to scroll through the different voltages (use the LEFT ARROW button to reduce and the RIGHT ARROW button to increase).

I would first set RSTP to 2 (or 1). If happy with results, issue "facs00" to turn off the service menu overal and "fan" to exit service menu.

Finding the sweet spot for S1, S3 and S4 is quite tricky on the 60 inch panels, so adjust these at your own risk. Make sure to keep the factory separation between the three and do NOT go below the minimum values (for 141 they are S1: 55, S3 65, S4 112). I ended up using 61, 71, 117. You'll have to use combi mask 9 and 10 when making adjustments to ensure you have no artifacts such as magenta misfires, magenta trails or green sparkles. If happy with results, issue "facs00" to turn off the service menu overal and "fan" to exit service menu.
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Old 04-08-2014, 04:11 PM
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Thanks for the speedy reply, I've just downloaded kuro control and will try to get up to speed ASAP, first effort to connect, didn't work so I'll have to do some reading, I know my cabling is good since spectracal runs fine (usb/serial adaptor as described by you)!

So thanks again and if/when I run into problems I may have to bug you again, regards T.
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Old 04-08-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by transendance View Post

Thanks for the speedy reply, I've just downloaded kuro control and will try to get up to speed ASAP, first effort to connect, didn't work so I'll have to do some reading, I know my cabling is good since spectracal runs fine (usb/serial adaptor as described by you)!

So thanks again and if/when I run into problems I may have to bug you again, regards T.

Make sure you click on the SERIAL bullet and select the correct COM port.
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Old 04-08-2014, 04:18 PM
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I'm on that right now, and , loaded, little "gun shy" about pressing the send command, will need to do a little more reading!

Quick question about my values, does it appear that I should have enough head room to get where I need to go?

T.
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