Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1400 Old 07-21-2014, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
From what I saw, dropping a value in the service menu is in fact increasing the real voltages.

Some time ago by mistake I dropped FSAD to 2 (yes, lol) on my non reset panel, and what did I see ? Immediately an horrible black rain.
What's happening on a fresh reset panel ? Black rain... why ? Because it's being driven like new, with higher voltages, but as the phosphors aren't new anymore, they don't like it that much
You got it backwards. Black rain happens because there is not enough voltage to wake "sleeping" pixels up.
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post #1352 of 1400 Old 07-21-2014, 02:33 PM
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I don't think so. That's the only logical explanation to what I witnessed, dropping FSAD without reset got the panel to a reset-like state, even quite worse because I dropped the value so much. New panels are over driven that's a fact on all plasmas, and resetting all the counters makes your electronics like new.
At the moment I've put FSAD to 2 every pixel on the screen made a flash, like if they were shocked, and poof a black screen without any MLL at all
Glad everything went back to normal after putting its normal value back, I was quite in stress... (I wanted to drop RSTP to 2 but entered the VYF command instead, being distracted, just a stupid mistake).

Last edited by lnarbi; 07-21-2014 at 02:37 PM.
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post #1353 of 1400 Old 07-21-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I don't think so. That's the only logical explanation to what I witnessed, dropping FSAD without reset got the panel to a reset-like state, even quite worse because I dropped the value so much. New panels are over driven that's a fact on all plasmas, and resetting all the counters makes your electronics like new.
At the moment I've put FSAD to 2 every pixel on the screen made a flash, like if they were shocked, and poof a black screen without any MLL at all
Glad everything went back to normal after putting its normal value back, I was quite in stress... (I wanted to drop RSTP to 2 but entered the VYF command instead, being distracted, just a stupid mistake).
Fsad behaves the same, reset or no reset. You lower the value, you lower the voltage. Ive lowered it on my 101fd before and after reset and it behaves the same - too low black rain, too high increase in mll.
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post #1354 of 1400 Old 07-21-2014, 10:12 PM
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You are free to believe what you want, but for me it's pretty sure and is common sense, drop value, increase voltage.
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post #1355 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
You are free to believe what you want, but for me it's pretty sure and is common sense, drop value, increase voltage.
Well then, youd be the first and only one on this forum with the belief that the relationship between sad value and the actual voltage is inverse.
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post #1356 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 10:15 AM
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I'll take the risk
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post #1357 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
You are free to believe what you want, but for me it's pretty sure and is common sense, drop value, increase voltage.
Check the service manual - there are equations for the voltages - all drops in value drop the voltage. How is what you said common sense?

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post #1358 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 10:48 AM
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New screens are overdriven at start.

Drop FSAD on a non reset screen to some extent, you get black rain.

Reset a panel whatever hours it has, its electronics will behave like a new one, you get black rain.

So unless black rain appears while overdriving AND underdriving a panel, that's what I call common sense.

All SM adjustments may not work the same way, but for FSAD...
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post #1359 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 10:54 AM
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FSAD is a unique adjustment - it adjusts all three voltages equally. If FSAD is set at 128 it can be seen that it will have no effect on any of the voltages. If FSAD is at 0, all voltages drop by 128. And vice versa.

As for your statement about black rain, it's more than possible. Plasma discharge only exists within a small energy band. Leave that band and you will get a variety of effects from black rain to magneta sparkles. I have tweaked my 9G to limits on each end and found these effects at both ends of the KNOFS voltages.
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post #1360 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 10:55 AM
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Let me say this differently...
When you reset your panel it's like dropping FSAD by 50 (for instance). That's why you get blacks that feel so... black, and why you get black rain, FSAD may even not adjust any voltage at all, no one knows anything about it anyway.
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post #1361 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:00 AM
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Well, if you looked at the equations you'd see what I am talking about.
FSAD alters the Y1F,Y3F,Y4F voltages equally and increasing FSAD increases these voltages. You can also adjust them individually (which is what I did as it gave me even lower black level.)

Panel ageing compensation will INCREASE these and RSTP (and possibly others)

This causes red tint and high MLL because the RED subpixels have the lowest CEL discharge energy (there's a Pio patent on this.) Adjusting these down hides the effect as the ageing compensation is too aggressive.

Resetting is like dropping some internal counter which is added in varying amounts to FSAD/RSTP/etc to zero, I don't think the panel controller changes the FSAD voltages that you see, there is a hidden internal compensation.
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Last edited by tom669; 07-22-2014 at 11:06 AM.
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post #1362 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:12 AM
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My guess is what I stated before.

I didn't say it changes FSAD value, just that the effect is the same as doing it. During the first hundreds of hours, the panel will auto adjust to higher rates and it has the same effect.
This is one thing.

I think for a long time some have understood that when you reset a panel the SM value don't change, and the REAL values inside the electronics, they, are back to their defaults.
Ex : Your FSAD is 150 before a reset, if you reset with that value, 150 will be your new "0" point.

On the RSTP part I don't know, but this might be the case too. The default RSTP value of your board will be the one that you get after setting the value to 0 and rebooting the panel. The real RSTP value, the one suited to your screen at the factory may be taken down to let's say 16 from 28, as your SM will still show 28 which won't be the real value anymore.

These are the effects I'm trying to talk about here...
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post #1363 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:18 AM
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Kind of odd that people can't seem to set RST P to 0, because on my PDP-LX5090 it works fine... only problem is if you switch from 21:9 to 16:9 then the top bars take a second or two to fully appear again. I currently have my panel set at a RST P of 8 with no maldischarge or black rain, no red tint either. I also ended up chaging the Y1F,Y3F,Y4F voltages considerably...
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post #1364 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:21 AM
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When you set it to 0 you have to unplug the set, and then restart it. It will go up to the board's default value. 0 is not a valid value, as stated in service manual.
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post #1365 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
When you set it to 0 you have to unplug the set, and then restart it. It will go up to the board's default value. 0 is not a valid value, as stated in service manual.
My set was OK with zero through a power cycle, maybe the European models do not reset.
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post #1366 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:50 AM
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I own 2 LX5090H and they both reset when set to 0.
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post #1367 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I own 2 LX5090H and they both reset when set to 0.
Do you have to power cycle the TV by unplugging it, or only POF followed by PON?
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post #1368 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 11:56 AM
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Power off with the power switch for sure, unplug or not I don't remember, but it's one of those, standby mode won't reset it.
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post #1369 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 12:26 PM
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Lower SAD = lower mll
Higher SAD = higher mll

Now tell me... does INCREASING voltage REDUCE mll? Think long and hard now...
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post #1370 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Let me say this differently...
When you reset your panel it's like dropping FSAD by 50 (for instance). That's why you get blacks that feel so... black, and why you get black rain, FSAD may even not adjust any voltage at all, no one knows anything about it anyway.
As tom mentioned, FSAD is not an actual voltage. It is a shortcut that was added in the 9G displays to easily adjust S1, S3 and S4 (since they should be adjusted together). Look at the schematics in the service manual and tell me if you see FSAD.

As seen by the formulas in the service manual, the relationship between FSAD and S1, S3 and S4 is direct NOT inverse.

You can believe all you want, but that doesn't change what the service manual states (or the formulas) or how the panel responds when these voltages are lowered.
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post #1371 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 01:03 PM
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It doesn't change the fact that an over driven panel reacts the same way lowering FSAD does.
Thanks for the explanation on FSAD I'm aware if its use since the first day I came on this forum.
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post #1372 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 01:13 PM
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Resetting panel resets internal ageing compensations for FSAD and RST P which causes black rain. The counter increases as the panel ages. When reset the black rain is occurring because the panel is UNDER driven not over driven, the pixels are not discharging.
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post #1373 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 01:52 PM
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Ok you guys are right, nevermind. There's no point to discuss with people who know everything better than anyone. Enjoy your displays.
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post #1374 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 02:19 PM
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Not sure if that is sarcastic but I fix plasma panels as a hobby (including my PDP-LX5090 which was purchased for a very low price because it had 8 blue blinks) so have a fair understanding of the drive technology. That being said Pioneer drive the panels completely different to everyone else on the 9G Kuros. No set-up ramps, for example. Even Panasonic's ZT65 and Samsung's F8500 use conventional set-up ramps that were used in the first plasmas ever made, so it's interesting that Pioneer bypassed it (and a sign that Panasonic and Samsung just invested time in getting a conventional panel design working at low MLL, Pioneer went for a different design because they only produced high end displays, no need to have 2nd production run for basic display panels.)
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post #1375 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
Not sure if that is sarcastic but I fix plasma panels as a hobby (including my PDP-LX5090 which was purchased for a very low price because it had 8 blue blinks) so have a fair understanding of the drive technology. That being said Pioneer drive the panels completely different to everyone else on the 9G Kuros. No set-up ramps, for example. Even Panasonic's ZT65 and Samsung's F8500 use conventional set-up ramps that were used in the first plasmas ever made, so it's interesting that Pioneer bypassed it (and a sign that Panasonic and Samsung just invested time in getting a conventional panel design working at low MLL, Pioneer went for a different design because they only produced high end displays, no need to have 2nd production run for basic display panels.)
you the man too see then tom, if my set, starts playing up

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It doesn't change the fact that an over driven panel reacts the same way lowering FSAD does.
Thanks for the explanation on FSAD I'm aware if its use since the first day I came on this forum.
How do you know its overdriven? The algorithm might be more aggressive during the first 500 hours, but that doesnt mean your USED panel (you know, the one you didnt replace) is being overdriven...
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post #1377 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 02:34 PM
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Ok you guys are right, nevermind. There's no point to discuss with people who know everything better than anyone. Enjoy your displays.
There's also no point in engaging in a discussion with someone who thinks up is down and down is up.
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post #1378 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
Not sure if that is sarcastic but I fix plasma panels as a hobby (including my PDP-LX5090 which was purchased for a very low price because it had 8 blue blinks) so have a fair understanding of the drive technology. That being said Pioneer drive the panels completely different to everyone else on the 9G Kuros. No set-up ramps, for example. Even Panasonic's ZT65 and Samsung's F8500 use conventional set-up ramps that were used in the first plasmas ever made, so it's interesting that Pioneer bypassed it (and a sign that Panasonic and Samsung just invested time in getting a conventional panel design working at low MLL, Pioneer went for a different design because they only produced high end displays, no need to have 2nd production run for basic display panels.)
Tom, in your educated opinion, what is the RIGHT way to repair reset Kuros?

Can they even be repaired to the point where they equal their non-reset counterparts?

I have a feeling that it will be a never ending game of cat and mouse maintaining voltages to be in line with the panel's age and the internal algorithms as they change over time.
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post #1379 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 02:58 PM
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From my Kuro... YES! You can fix this, and after another 100 hours they have not increased. I have tweaked my panel to the point of a tiny red haze along the bottom but I will work on removing that properly when I have more time to play with the voltages.

My current settings for the PDP-LX5090 with 12,500 hours (enormous, I've had Panasonic PZ80s with less; I had a 46" for about a year with under 5k hours before upgrading, but was getting distracted by LCD-like black levels):

VOL SUS = 155 (from 128)
VOL OFFSET = 140 (unchanged)
VOL RST P = 009 (from 031)
VOL XPOFS1 = 085 (unchanged)
VOL XPOFS2 = 045 (unchanged)
VOL YKNOFS1,2 D = 015 (from 143)
VOL YKNOFS3 D = 110 (from 128)
VOL YKNOFS4 D = 170 (from 128)

Effects of each:

VOL SUS = LOW - Dead pixels, magenta tint, darker image, HIGH - Sparklies, brighter image, sweet spot is slightly higher for bright image
VOL OFFSET = Low/High causes dead pixels (unsure exactly how) usually green dead pixels
VOL RST P = MLL/Red tint and pixel discharge initialisation, with low RST P pixels can fade in on dark scenes with high RST P the MLL goes through the roof
VOL XPOFS1 = Unsure, but think related to Ve/Vzbias on Panny/Samsung/LG, if so will affect IR, erase time and MLL however have not played much with it
VOL XPOFS2 = Unsure again but maybe 2Ve on Panny/Samsung if so has similar effects to XPOFS1
VOL YKNOFS1,2D = Y-init voltage for 1st & 2nd subfields, affects black detail, red tint and can cause black rain
VOL YKNOFS3D = Y-init voltage for another set of fields, affects black detail, too LOW causes magenta tint, too HIGH causes extreme loss of detail, sparklies, IR, affects red tint too
VOL YKNOFS4D = Appears to help counter some effects of low YNOFS3D, can affect red tint

I did NOT adjust the YNOFSAD - you can fix red tint this way however it is rather unsatisfactory because you may see black rain before you adjust too far as in my case. And I did NOT reset any pulse or hour counters, doing so is very foolish IMHO!

The Kuro manual indicates the YKNOFSADs should be adjusted equally - however this is not a requirement and will not damage the panel or boards if they are adjusted individually. Adjusting individually gives you a lot more freedom. The panel on my TV is now so dark the bezel blends with the panel even with all lights out. You can put your eye to the panel and see the glow just about. I might be able to hit the milestone of zero MLL if I can deal with a slight magneta dead pixel problem - need to play around a little more with voltages. I did have essentially zero MLL at one point but too much problem with motion - dead pixels everywhere on scrolling scenes etc.

Anyone in the local area (Leeds) I can borrow/rent a light meter off I'd be interested. I'd like to see what my ANSI contrast can reach with more tweaks.

OOB, 9G Kuro achieves something like 30,000:1? Since 9.5G and 9G are identical panels just different drive, I think I can achieve >60,000:1. Final goal being stable 100,000:1 contrast on ANSI pattern, >100,000:1 black to 5% white window. Full field MLL below 0.0005cd/m^2 and 90cd/m^2 white.
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Last edited by tom669; 07-22-2014 at 03:24 PM.
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post #1380 of 1400 Old 07-22-2014, 03:14 PM
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As for repairing harm caused by reset... well, I do not know, but it causes the panel to get out of sync with the control board. In theory it should be possible to compensate for the ageing algorithm manually. Since the panel has passed the initial break in stage I think you should only need to try eliminate black rain, magenta sparkles, red tint etc.
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