Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 55 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 04-11-2015, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
One of the problems after a reset is that gamma is falling hard under 5% and it gets the tv a hard time to get the job done correctly there.
I don't know why I didn't try that before, but I've come to a change that gives me very pleasing results.

You might know that an attempt to standardize gamma has been made with the BT1886 (something like that) norm, and it does similar things to the SRGB color space, gamma curve raises near black to reveal shadow details.

So I tried this on ISF Night : all gamma -2, 20 IRE all -1, 10 IRE all 0. It should sort of emulate that kind of curve (I didn't check with a meter, I will next week).

So far it's excellent, colors near black are clearly more apparent and pleasing, and it's generally more pleasing to the eye, giving a natural pop even to ISF Night with that low contrast, and absolutely no sense of crushed blacks.

I'm still hesitating between leaving 20 IRE at -2 or -1 to smooth the curve, I find it a bit better with -1 at 20IRE (I think).

This might not be necessary on non reset displays, but it definitely helps a lot on the low end for reset displays.

To be honest... think about being in the street at night, with some light but not much, do things really look that dark in real life ? I don't think so... On the dark knight rises, dark scences seem more like what I would see if I'd be there in the street than before.
What's funny is 10 IRE on my (conservatively) tweaked 500m is around 2.23 (according to my i1d3 colorimeter) on isf day (45ftl) mode with the 10 IRE gamma setting at 0. On isf night mode (30ftl), gamma on 10 IRE reads high (around 2.3) with the setting at 0. If I set it to -1, it lowers to around 2.16. I left it at 0 but perhaps I should revisit and set it to -1. However, the meter might not be accurate on such low readings, since it read perfectly on day mode.
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Old 04-12-2015, 12:56 AM
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Pretty weird, because lowering the gamma points should darken the picture so if you have 2.23 at 0 you should go down to 2.3 or even more, not 2.1.

With the display pro try to turn on LLH in meter settings (but readings should be consistent and repeatable @ 10%, at 5% though that is obviously needed).

My goal would be 2.3 across the whole range raising to 2.25 @20, then somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2 @10, hoping this curve will keep going all the way to black.
I don't have my meter yet (used to borrow from a friend all the time but got tired so I bought one), I will have a look at what happens @5%.

It's still too high to witness the post reset gamma problem which begins to happen under bar 20 on low pluge pattern. For the record, 5% grey is bar 27, 10% is 38...
Definitely too low to hope for any good reading for a consumer grade colorimeter, I would only trust a Klein K10 that low
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Old 04-12-2015, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Pretty weird, because lowering the gamma points should darken the picture so if you have 2.23 at 0 you should go down to 2.3 or even more, not 2.1.

With the display pro try to turn on LLH in meter settings (but readings should be consistent and repeatable @ 10%, at 5% though that is obviously needed).

My goal would be 2.3 across the whole range raising to 2.25 @20, then somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2 @10, hoping this curve will keep going all the way to black.
I don't have my meter yet (used to borrow from a friend all the time but got tired so I bought one), I will have a look at what happens @5%.

It's still too high to witness the post reset gamma problem which begins to happen under bar 20 on low pluge pattern. For the record, 5% grey is bar 27, 10% is 38...
Definitely too low to hope for any good reading for a consumer grade colorimeter, I would only trust a Klein K10 that low

Sorry I meant +1. Setting it to +1 gives me a gamma reading of 2.16 on 10 IRE. Leaving it at 0 nets a gamma level of 2.3 on 10 IRE. This is all on isf night mode.

On isf day, my gamma was not straight with all points at 0, since there was a steady and significant raise from 50 IRE and up. I got it as straight as I could by setting all points to -1 except to 10 IRE, which I left at 0.
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Old 04-12-2015, 02:16 PM
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I tested many things tonight, and found that the best result on the gamma side, visually at least, was to have all gamma at -1, except 20% @ 0 and 10% @ +1.
It gives a very natural feeling in the dark scenes.
It must go down in a progressive manner on the low end however, if you leave all at -1 except 10 @ +1 it's too huge a step and washes out the picture, but bringing 20% into the mix makes it really good.
So far I get the same pop on the picture as with ISF day, but without eye strain in a dark room

I noticed something else that I'll have to figure out too...
I calibrated the tv with a display pro and the charts were really good, but I still felt like there's a tiny green push to the lights, and after finding a good scene in prometheus to figure things out by eye, I found that I was lacking 5 (4 at least) clics on blue and that red was too low. I was remembering the same scenes on a sony hw55 with absolutely no push, and I simply aimed for the same result I remembered.

I've read that somewhere that such things could happen when having the meter in direct contact to the screen, it might read the coating of the glass and the dithering too, giving false results.
I'll try again with the meter at 1ft from the screen and all lights off to see how it goes.

Last edited by lnarbi; 04-12-2015 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I tested many things tonight, and found that the best result on the gamma side, visually at least, was to have all gamma at -1, except 20% @ 0 and 10% @ +1.
It gives a very natural feeling in the dark scenes.
It must go down in a progressive manner on the low end however, if you leave all at -1 except 10 @ +1 it's too huge a step and washes out the picture, but bringing 20% into the mix makes it really good.
So far I get the same pop on the picture as with ISF day, but without eye strain in a dark room

I noticed something else that I'll have to figure out too...
I calibrated the tv with a display pro and the charts were really good, but I still felt like there's a tiny green push to the lights, and after finding a good scene in prometheus to figure things out by eye, I found that I was lacking 5 (4 at least) clics on blue and that red was too low. I was remembering the same scenes on a sony hw55 with absolutely no push, and I simply aimed for the same result I remembered.

I've read that somewhere that such things could happen when having the meter in direct contact to the screen, it might read the coating of the glass and the dithering too, giving false results.
I'll try again with the meter at 1ft from the screen and all lights off to see how it goes.
I learned the hard way to not calibrate with the meter in direct contact with the screen. The heat coming off the panel affects readings, so if you engage in a long calibration session (it sounds like you did since you did a lot of testing) heat will become a factor in your readings. You should position the meter at least 6 inches away from the screen.

Can you post your calibration report? I'd like to see how your gamma curve looks like. I haven't done enough post calibration real world testing with my 500M, but my gamma was pretty much straight 2.23, with points 10 and 20 around 2.17.

I will perform a 21 point reading (to check 5 IRU) later this week and report back.
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:15 AM
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Next week end I'll be able to post reports, still waiting on the meter (and now the tripod + the adapter you bought, thanks for the tip I found it on amazon france too).
Will be a pain in the ass to constantly have to turn on and off the computer screen as it stands really close to the tv (therefore the meter).
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Old 04-13-2015, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Next week end I'll be able to post reports, still waiting on the meter (and now the tripod + the adapter you bought, thanks for the tip I found it on amazon france too).
Will be a pain in the ass to constantly have to turn on and off the computer screen as it stands really close to the tv (therefore the meter).
As long as you're behind the meter, the light from the monitor shouldn't affect it.

Wait, were you making gamma and grayscale adjustments by eye?
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Old 04-13-2015, 01:42 PM
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Yes
I didn't say it's accurate, I did say it felt better, more like what I see on a calibrated proj, or in cinema. I'll see at the end of the week how it ends in the charts.
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Old 04-14-2015, 02:54 AM
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Hi again,


Now that I've read almost the entire theard I'd still like to try to get my blacks darker. My set is SX4280D (8G) and it has 19k hours on it, so it's not that new anymore. Thats why I'd like to try this first before doing complete reset (or what do you think?):
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice
The easiest and safest way for ALL to lower the blacks and get rid of the red tint right now is just to lower YKNOFSA D
that way doesnt bring back any weird problems.
BUT I don't know what the adjustment range is for my panel. I did found a 4280HD service manual, but no luck with that.


So help, from someone who has done this before, would be highly appreciated!
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:15 AM
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Hi again,


Now that I've read almost the entire theard I'd still like to try to get my blacks darker. My set is SX4280D (8G) and it has 19k hours on it, so it's not that new anymore. Thats why I'd like to try this first before doing complete reset (or what do you think?):


BUT I don't know what the adjustment range is for my panel. I did found a 4280HD service manual, but no luck with that.


So help, from someone who has done this before, would be highly appreciated!
8G Pioneer Plasmas do not have FSAD , you have to lower S1 S3 and S4 . make sure to keep the spacing the same , in other words if you lower S1 10 clicks you must lower S3 and S4 10 clicks
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:07 PM
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Got the meter and the tripod and I compared between direct contact vs around 5 inches away.
Besides slight luminance changes which is somewhat normal, absolutely no difference in measurements between the meter on direct contact for 2 hours and the kuro burning it, and the meter cold at a distance.

On the gamma side unfortunately the low end can't be set differently without screwing up green in the midrance IRE.
On my panel gamma 0 = around 2.15, gamma -1 = around 2.20 and gamma -2 around 2.25/2.30, I chose the last one.

Some findings about the CMS, gathered from various d-nice posts and trials :

G C and B mainly affect the low end, so they can be used to tweak the greyscale on the very low end.
As a side effect of using the Green CMS, it will rotate your red and blue colors in one way if pushed right (red will slowly go up through the entire greyscale, and blue will go down), and the opposite if pushed left. Used with the RGB highs/lows it can open some tweak perspectives.

Yellow can be used 1 or 2 clicks to tame the red channel on the middle up side, if needed.
The other ones I haven't figured a logical pattern that would explain their use.

Anyway I've got the best greyscale I ever had, unfortunately I found no combination that would better the 5 and 10% clics without having worse results overall, so I'll live with it. Raising brightess to +2 would cut dEuv by half, but it raises idle luminance, and it's not an option.
Blue falls a bit on the high end because of ABL imho, I used ted's lightspace disk with 11% patterns (AVS APL small patterns give very similar results, a bit different, but not much at all).
Colorchecker SG averages 0.6dE now.
Still not as good as the d-nice reports though, I don't know how he manages to get there... something I'll never have, his experience...

This is with brightness +1 :


This with brightness +2 (obviously better, but screws the blacks) :


Gamut :


And Controlcal settings for that :
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:48 PM
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I tried to change the offsets while measuring the low IREs :
- VSUS doesn't do anything to the greyscale, but if I raise it to 160, the green flashing pixel I had before reset comes back, so obviously the delta for 15k hours is around +30 or more on VSUS
- FSAD fixes the low end of the greyscale, around 150 I'm at 3 dEuv on both 5 and 10% grey vs more than 10 before, but several major side effects = much much much more IR, a slight return of red tint and of course higher black levels.

Now that I've figured this out, I'm wondering if I should try another reset set both voltage around 150 right after the reset when I change RSTP, and see how it looks in the end.
I might even try to put them 22 clics lower before the reset, then reset, and after that raise them back to 128, should have the same effect on the actual voltages, but might act differently other time in the end.
Remember : when I raised RSTP from 16 to 33 right after reset I had no raise in mll at all.

Last edited by lnarbi; 04-17-2015 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:29 PM
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I tried to change the offsets while measuring the low IREs :
the S1 voltage changes gamma near black so thats the one you could try to change to get 5% gamma up to the line.
lower it -10 would probably get 5% up to gamma 2.3 as the rest of the IREs.
lower S1 to much and you will get a red push to the low IREs so thats not good.

about abl
i dont get it
why calibrate with apl patterns that triggers ABL ?
you are using APL patterns not windows right?

not only will apl patterns change gamma on the kuros they will also change the whiteballance.

use small windows instead.
calibrate to those and you get the best overall picture.

as for peak brightness
why only 29fL?
35fL (120cd/m2) is more suited for ISF night.

on my last 5090 i gaved up on the ISF modes.
i could never get the same punch near black as i did with the user or standard modes.
the ISF modes allways looked more flat with more washed out shadows.

to bad that the 5090s doesnt have the pure mode as the KRPs has.
that mode is the one im using now most of the time on my KRP

edit: the ISF P2 settings
what do you have those set to?

another option is to buy the eecolor 3d LUT box
http://www.displaycalibrations.com/eecolor_order.html

then you dont need to worry about the higher dEs and how to correct them
the 3D LUT calibration corrects all of the problems you have now near black.
just sit back and wait for 5 hours to complete the calibration
after that you will have an average color error of around dE 0.2

your kuro will then match the Dolby Reference monitors as for picture accuracy.
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Last edited by all clear; 04-17-2015 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 04-17-2015, 11:43 PM
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Never change the spacing betwwen S1 S3 and S4.
28fL suits my needs for ISF Night, I don't need brighter (I don't need THX certification). ISF day is at 48fL.
P2 are set as always, like everyone.

In real world viewing ABL is triggered all the time, so I choose to trigger it just a bit.
Theres no need for a 3d lut or complete CMS on a kuro, if you choose to buy it's your call, but it's definitely not needed.
Besides my meter isn't profiled yet, so there's no point trying to do better at the time, I'll wait until a calibrator I know comes around, he will bring his PR670 to profile the diplay pro on my tv. Then it will be worth to try some more.

BTW : I measured with full field windows out of curiosity, and besides of gamma being out of whack the color tracking is roughly the same, definitely no problem in the use of 11% windows.
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Last edited by lnarbi; 04-17-2015 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:22 AM
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Never change the spacing betwwen S1 S3 and S4.
28fL suits my needs for ISF Night, I don't need brighter (I don't need THX certification). ISF day is at 48fL.
P2 are set as always, like everyone.

In real world viewing ABL is triggered all the time, so I choose to trigger it just a bit.
Theres no need for a 3d lut or complete CMS on a kuro, if you choose to buy it's your call, but it's definitely not needed.
Besides my meter isn't profiled yet, so there's no point trying to do better at the time, I'll wait until a calibrator I know comes around, he will bring his PR670 to profile the diplay pro on my tv. Then it will be worth to try some more.

BTW : I measured with full field windows out of curiosity, and besides of gamma being out of whack the color tracking is roughly the same, definitely no problem in the use of 11% windows.
you are wrong
spacing between S3 and S4 needs to be the same.
S1 is not linked to S3 and S4.
if you test it you will know thats the case.

P2 are set as always?
what do you mean?
what settings do you use under P2 thats what i want to know.

no ABL is not triggerd all the time with real world viewing only over 40% APL.
if you put up the menu on a scene and the scene becoms darker when you close the menu ABL is in use.
if the scene have the same brightness when you close the menu ABL is not in use.
ABL is only in use on high APL scenes.

so you are using small windows then?
then you dont need to worry about ABL.

no 3D LUT is not needed but it makes a big different to the picture quality when you use it on a Kuro.
everything looks more 3D like.
i know because i have compared a simple 1D lut calibration like you are doing to a 3D LUT calibration and the difference is visible.
colors are amazing
details near black is better.
if you have some black crush before the 3D LUT calibration (every tweaked and reseted kuro has it to some degree) you will not have any black crush when the 3D LUT calibration is finished.

you are correcting colorpoints inside the gamut with a 3D LUT calibration.
with a 1D LUT calibration you are not.

besides
a 3D LUT calibration is more simplier
just sit back and let the program do the job calibrating the signal.
you dont have to do anything besides set the whiteballance and blacklevel before you start.
no calibration knowlegde is needed for a 3D LUT calibration.

so there goes the pro calibration knowledge that many pays for

Last edited by all clear; 04-18-2015 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 04-18-2015, 10:27 AM
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you are wrong
spacing between S3 and S4 needs to be the same.
S1 is not linked to S3 and S4.
if you test it you will know thats the case.

P2 are set as always?
what do you mean?
what settings do you use under P2 thats what i want to know.

no ABL is not triggerd all the time with real world viewing only over 40% APL.
if you put up the menu on a scene and the scene becoms darker when you close the menu ABL is in use.
if the scene have the same brightness when you close the menu ABL is not in use.
ABL is only in use on high APL scenes.

so you are using small windows then?
then you dont need to worry about ABL.

no 3D LUT is not needed but it makes a big different to the picture quality when you use it on a Kuro.
everything looks more 3D like.
i know because i have compared a simple 1D lut calibration like you are doing to a 3D LUT calibration and the difference is visible.
colors are amazing
details near black is better.
if you have some black crush before the 3D LUT calibration (every tweaked and reseted kuro has it to some degree) you will not have any black crush when the 3D LUT calibration is finished.

you are correcting colorpoints inside the gamut with a 3D LUT calibration.
with a 1D LUT calibration you are not.

besides
a 3D LUT calibration is more simplier
just sit back and let the program do the job calibrating the signal.
you dont have to do anything besides set the whiteballance and blacklevel before you start.
no calibration knowlegde is needed for a 3D LUT calibration.

so there goes the pro calibration knowledge that many pays for
In my testing, I found that lowering s1 (while keeping the others intact) made a 5% window darker. To see this change, you need to perform adjustment via commands and not the service menu overlay, as the overlay makes it impossible to see the effects of your changes. Anyways, lowering s3 and s4 by the same amount as s1 (to bring all 3 back to factory separation) undoes the brightness reduction caused by lowering s1. Perhaps raising s1 by 10 ticks will compensate for the black crush on near black? I may be over thinking it, but wouldn't lowering s1 independently worsen the black crush issue?

Granted, I didn't measure the changes with a meter because what I saw told me al I needed to know. I'll play around with s1 independently and measure its effects later this week. My 5 and 10 IRE points are heavy in red on night mode (though perfectly fine on day mode) so if lowering s1 too much causes this red push as you mention, then lowering s1 independently will only make things worse. My panel is tweaked with factory separation intact, never reset, btw.

The bt1886 standard calls for higher gamma up until 10 IRE, so if the Kuro's adjustments limited my choices between 2.27 and 2.17 for 5 and 10 IRE, I would definitely go with the latter to undo the loss of detail near black caused by tweaking / reset. If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't the former make the black crush problem worse?

Interestingly enough, tweaking voltages while maintaining factory separation does not affect near black gamma on the 60 inch panels. I've never owned 50 inch 9th gen (only 9.5) so I am not sure if size or generation is the main factor. Most likely the latter.

I too prefer dim night mode and typically calibrate my night mode to 30ftl. I've seen various D-Nice reports (including from two sessions with my 101fd) and he seems to shoot for 32ftl on night mode. IMO, 35ftl is too bright for a night mode, especially since you cant get past 40ftl on the 60 inch iterations for day mode. But in the end is all about personal preference.
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Old 04-18-2015, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I tried to change the offsets while measuring the low IREs :
- VSUS doesn't do anything to the greyscale, but if I raise it to 160, the green flashing pixel I had before reset comes back, so obviously the delta for 15k hours is around +30 or more on VSUS
- FSAD fixes the low end of the greyscale, around 150 I'm at 3 dEuv on both 5 and 10% grey vs more than 10 before, but several major side effects = much much much more IR, a slight return of red tint and of course higher black levels.

Now that I've figured this out, I'm wondering if I should try another reset set both voltage around 150 right after the reset when I change RSTP, and see how it looks in the end.
I might even try to put them 22 clics lower before the reset, then reset, and after that raise them back to 128, should have the same effect on the actual voltages, but might act differently other time in the end.
Remember : when I raised RSTP from 16 to 33 right after reset I had no raise in mll at all.
VSUS does increase peak light output slight but other than that my observations match yours. I had a intermittent stuck aqua pixel on my 101 that would go away if I lowered VSUS or SAD (i.e. s1, s3 and s4). Raising any of the two and the stuck pixel would return.

Wait, you saw MORE IR with a higher SAD value? That makes no sense. A higher SAD value fixing the low end of the gray scale might point to my assumption that raising s1 independently is the key to fixing low end gray scale and gamma issues. Perhaps, on non reset displays, s1 needs to be left at default and only s3 and s4 should be lowered for tweak not to affect low end? I will test later next week.

Man, I sure dont miss my reset panel and the endless and fruitless voltage adjustment sessions.
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:56 AM
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Perhaps raising s1 by 10 ticks will compensate for the black crush on near black?
yes raising S1 will bring out more details near black but also lowering gamma near black.
to low S1 will get dirty details near black.

the best way i think is just to put up the 5% window and put up a meter and read the whiteballance.
when the whiteballance for 5% white is right you also have the S1 voltage right.
the red tone will go away if you raise S1 some

i havnt changed voltages in over a year i think.
the 3D LUT calibration made the picture perfect so there is no need to tweak anything here.

i can put up calibration results from when the 3D LUT is activated and when its not so you can see the differences.
not only will the 3D LUT calibration take care of whiteballance near black and blackcrush it will also set gamma right near black.
so instead of tweaking the low end greyscale which is almost impossible when you dont have 10 or 20 point whiteballance settings.
let the 3D LUT calibration do the job.
the result is really amazing.

if i have time i could put up a guide on how to set up the programs you need to create a 3D LUT
once set up its easy.

as for the eecolor 3D LUT box you dont need it if you watch movies from your PC.
in that case you just import the 3D LUT file to the madvr video renderer.
the result is the same as if you connect the eecolor box to your blu ray player.
in both cases you use a 3D LUT file to change the signal to the tv.

here is some info from a calibrator named Gordon from avforum when he calibrated a NEW KRP-500A using 3D LUT
https://www.avforums.com/threads/i-c...erday.1924230/
but thats only 750 measured colorpatches
the 3D LUT i have done is made from reading and correcting 9200 colorpatches.

he also explains why you shouldnt touch the CMS controls on the Kuros

Last edited by all clear; 04-18-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 04-18-2015, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
yes raising S1 will bring out more details near black but also lowering gamma near black.
to low S1 will get dirty details near black.
So why would lowering s1 be a better overall solution?

Also, isnt higher gamma (i.e. below 2.2) near black desired? Especially since the bt1886 standard calls for higher gamma near black.
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Old 04-18-2015, 01:55 PM
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All right so I did it I had to try.
New reset done today.

Difference from the first one, I have set vsus and fsad immediately to 155 both after the reset, along with rstp.
My MLL is higher, that's a fact, but not red tinted so far, so we'll see over time. I have higher IR than before too, but it's not really that annoying. No black rain spotted so far (but haven't extensively looked for it).

Did a greyscale check after that, and I needed to raise red and blue (+1 on red, +2 on blue), this is the result :


Much better low end.

In the picture itself viewing some movies I was really impressed, that's by far the best picture I've had on the different kuro I've owned and seen. Colors are wonderfull, perfect black details, colors near black are excellent, a natural sharpness even in movements I never had before, the picture is impressive, really...
But MLL is worse. If it's the only downside to keep a picture that nice, well... so be it.

Edit : by standard controlcal P2 I meant as in d-nice's settings
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Last edited by lnarbi; 04-18-2015 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 04-18-2015, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
So why would lowering s1 be a better overall solution?

Also, isnt higher gamma (i.e. below 2.2) near black desired? Especially since the bt1886 standard calls for higher gamma near black.
bt1886 gamma is only optimal for displays that cant go down to 0 blacks so i dont use it.
i go for powerlaw gamma on my KRP
that one looks best with best shadow details.

if you want to use bt1886 do it
i dont trust gimmicks that tries to copy the behaviour from the old CRT tvs.
also most movies are mastered with powerlaw gamma at 2.22

Last edited by all clear; 04-18-2015 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:27 AM
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So far the results are excellent.
I watched 4 hours with ISF Day in a very dim room, absolutely no eye strain.
Interestingly, the max luminance at the same contrast level dropped from 48 to 45 fL (VSUS raised alone vs VSUS + FSAD), maybe raising FSAD along with VSUS counterbalances its brightness raise effect.

Had a little IR in the first hour or so, now nothing to be spotted, or annoying at least.
No black rain, MLL is dark enough to have the black bars blend into the bezel as long as there is content on the screen. On very very low APL scenes it is not as dark as before, but still dark enough to have an awesome contrast feeling.
Colors near black are really nice, the same league as what is seen on a christie proj in cinemas (never had that before).
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
So far the results are excellent.
I watched 4 hours with ISF Day in a very dim room, absolutely no eye strain.
Interestingly, the max luminance at the same contrast level dropped from 48 to 45 fL (VSUS raised alone vs VSUS + FSAD), maybe raising FSAD along with VSUS counterbalances its brightness raise effect.

Had a little IR in the first hour or so, now nothing to be spotted, or annoying at least.
No black rain, MLL is dark enough to have the black bars blend into the bezel as long as there is content on the screen. On very very low APL scenes it is not as dark as before, but still dark enough to have an awesome contrast feeling.
Colors near black are really nice, the same league as what is seen on a christie proj in cinemas (never had that before).
sounds great

measure brightness again and im sure you will get it back to 48
they can dim down some if you use alot of static window patterns for a long time.

do you raise VSUS to clear a white screen from misfires or why do you raise it?
XSUS_B and YSUS_B does that job more effective than VSUS does.

i have XSUS_B and YSUS_B both at 124 (128 default)
VSUS and all other voltages at default.

about FSAD
do you raise it just to get better performance near black on the calibration charts or do you raise it because you have misfires near black?

kuros is still ahead of the oleds for near black performance for sure
but the KRPs are slight better than the LX5090s in that area.
it seems that the KRPs works with higher resolution or more Bits near black.
you get a really clean looking image even in low apl scenes on the KRPs.
slight more noise and less colors near black on the 5090s

if you can get a hold of a KRP then buy it
the upgrade from 5090 is really worth it.

Last edited by all clear; 04-20-2015 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 07:11 AM
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My goal was to get the pre reset performance without red tint and without my stuck pixel.
I won't touch the other offset, it's not a misfire problem, vsus on its own removes them.
Some research on the pioneer patterns on their plasma tech + measurements directly inside the TV have proven that VSUS raises with time in a somewhat logarithmic curve.
5.5k hours = 145, 7K hrs = 153, 30k hours = 168...

VSUS and FSAD are connected, that's quite sure. Do not raise one by much, but both by less.

Read that paper, quite interesting about the plasma tech. Combine this and understanding the pioneer patterns on the kuro, and you come to quite interesting things :
http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-2184EN

BTW, no it's not the auto dimming, VSUS and FSAD at 128, I get 45fL at contrast 35, VSUS 150 alone, 48fL, VSUS and FSAD 155, 45fL... Coincidence ? I don't think so.

Some other information from back in the days :
Quote:
After speaking with my guy at Pioneer service today...here is what he told me based of the e-mail I sent him last week. By resetting your panel with out changing the X and or Y board can cause effects to the following voltages and settings: VOL SUS, VOL OFFSET, VOL RST P, and Panel white balance 60 & 72 hz. The rest of the voltages from VOL XPOFS1 to SUS FREQ are fine because those voltages are adjusted per X/Y board and since they are not being changed those values are fine. However now the VOL SUS needs to be re-adjusted to 215v(reguardless of the 128 value) by meter inside the panel, next the VOL OFFSET & VOL RST P both need to be adjusted up using the MKCS01 patern at 60hz until all sparkles are gone, and last you will need a good spectroradiometer or colorimeter to recalibrate your panels main white balance at 60hz/72hz because the values are no longer correct for your panel
I don't know at all what vol offset does so I won't touch it, same goes for RSTP (factory value), I'll leave them where they are.

Last edited by lnarbi; 04-20-2015 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:50 AM
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ok interseting
i need to test if peakbrightness changes with VSUS and SAD
it sounds more that it is the high end of the gamma curve that is changing ?
i will do some testing tonight

as for peakbrightness
i get 57-58fL on my KRP with contrast at 40
no white clipping and correct whiteballance.

48fL seems low
but then its only at contrast 35


Quote:
VOL OFFSET & VOL RST P both need to be adjusted up using the MKCS01 patern at 60hz until all sparkles are gone
i will check that one out also
i have never thought that those two voltages was linked to each other.
usually you dont need to change RSTP as its a factory setting.
but raising it will bring back the red tint faster.

i think RSTP (reset pulse) is a counter for how high or how fast the algorithms increases the voltages over time but im not sure.
if vol offset is linked to RSTP it must also have something to do with the aging algorithms that you dont see right away when you change it.
but it should be something you notice over time

and 215v for vol sus?
that one was also new
i wonder where you should measure that?
i need to get a voltmeter

but its great to have some numbers to go after if they are correct.
then you wont need to guess the values.

Last edited by all clear; 04-20-2015 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:08 AM
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If I recall the service manual shows where to do the measurements.
Note that my panel has 15k hours, it might have some "brightness" drop.
My first kuro was 4k hours, and I had 30 fL with 18 contrast. This one is 21 contrast for 28 fL.
Not a problem anyway, the first bright scene of total recall (with flashing lights) @45fL in a pitch black room you go blind
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:11 AM
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My stuck pixel before first reset appeared back at VSUS 160 before the last reset I did, and because I obviously don't want it back for a long time, I tried 155 hoping the fast aging curve of the first hundred hours won't bring it back quickly. I should know soon enough.
BTW, YSUS and XSUS seem to be vertical and horizontal iterations of VSUS, itself acting on both.
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:55 AM
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Another interesting thing...
I checked the masks out of curiosity.
Masks CS06 CS07 and SS23 are perfectly clean, no misfires at all !
I NEVER saw that on a reset display, never, especially CS06 was impossible to get clean.
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Old 04-20-2015, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
BTW, YSUS and XSUS seem to be vertical and horizontal iterations of VSUS, itself acting on both.
that sounds logical
X and Y
you need to change both not just one to have an effect.

lowering RSTP and VOL OFFSET with the MKCS01 (H Ramp) mask didnt have any effect att all
i also tried to power off and power on to see any changes.

it said that you should raise both to clear sparkles but i didnt get any sparkles even with RSTP at 001 and VOL OFFSET at 010
so that one goes off the list of potential fixes right away
the only voltage that has an effect on that mask is VOLSUS.


Quote:
VSUS and FSAD at 128, I get 45fL at contrast 35, VSUS 150 alone, 48fL, VSUS and FSAD 155, 45fL.
brightness test with VSUS and SAD with contrast at 35
default vsus and sad: 45fL
vsus 150: 46.6fL
vsus and sad at 155: 46.9
default vsus and sad but with xsus_b and ysus_b at 124 : 48fL

so no raising both VSUS and SAD to 155 here doesnt reduce brightness


Masks CS06 CS07 and SS23 are extreme
they are not clean here but i dont care.
i never see those misfires on real content so i let it go

i have some other fixes for mask problems here that i tested out about a year ago
they can be usefull


Last edited by all clear; 04-21-2015 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 12:31 PM
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Everything might not be right you know, these are just quotes, and not necessarily truth. A possibility though.
I noticed when starting the TV that the gray box "starting up" was perfectly solid, without any dancing pixel even with the nose on it. Might explain the better overall sharpness.
And what if, FSAD and VSUS had to be set the same value ? It could even be as simple as that, who knows
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