Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 55 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1621 of 1641 Old 04-11-2015, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
One of the problems after a reset is that gamma is falling hard under 5% and it gets the tv a hard time to get the job done correctly there.
I don't know why I didn't try that before, but I've come to a change that gives me very pleasing results.

You might know that an attempt to standardize gamma has been made with the BT1886 (something like that) norm, and it does similar things to the SRGB color space, gamma curve raises near black to reveal shadow details.

So I tried this on ISF Night : all gamma -2, 20 IRE all -1, 10 IRE all 0. It should sort of emulate that kind of curve (I didn't check with a meter, I will next week).

So far it's excellent, colors near black are clearly more apparent and pleasing, and it's generally more pleasing to the eye, giving a natural pop even to ISF Night with that low contrast, and absolutely no sense of crushed blacks.

I'm still hesitating between leaving 20 IRE at -2 or -1 to smooth the curve, I find it a bit better with -1 at 20IRE (I think).

This might not be necessary on non reset displays, but it definitely helps a lot on the low end for reset displays.

To be honest... think about being in the street at night, with some light but not much, do things really look that dark in real life ? I don't think so... On the dark knight rises, dark scences seem more like what I would see if I'd be there in the street than before.
What's funny is 10 IRE on my (conservatively) tweaked 500m is around 2.23 (according to my i1d3 colorimeter) on isf day (45ftl) mode with the 10 IRE gamma setting at 0. On isf night mode (30ftl), gamma on 10 IRE reads high (around 2.3) with the setting at 0. If I set it to -1, it lowers to around 2.16. I left it at 0 but perhaps I should revisit and set it to -1. However, the meter might not be accurate on such low readings, since it read perfectly on day mode.
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post #1622 of 1641 Old 04-12-2015, 12:56 AM
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Pretty weird, because lowering the gamma points should darken the picture so if you have 2.23 at 0 you should go down to 2.3 or even more, not 2.1.

With the display pro try to turn on LLH in meter settings (but readings should be consistent and repeatable @ 10%, at 5% though that is obviously needed).

My goal would be 2.3 across the whole range raising to 2.25 @20, then somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2 @10, hoping this curve will keep going all the way to black.
I don't have my meter yet (used to borrow from a friend all the time but got tired so I bought one), I will have a look at what happens @5%.

It's still too high to witness the post reset gamma problem which begins to happen under bar 20 on low pluge pattern. For the record, 5% grey is bar 27, 10% is 38...
Definitely too low to hope for any good reading for a consumer grade colorimeter, I would only trust a Klein K10 that low
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post #1623 of 1641 Old 04-12-2015, 04:14 AM
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Pretty weird, because lowering the gamma points should darken the picture so if you have 2.23 at 0 you should go down to 2.3 or even more, not 2.1.

With the display pro try to turn on LLH in meter settings (but readings should be consistent and repeatable @ 10%, at 5% though that is obviously needed).

My goal would be 2.3 across the whole range raising to 2.25 @20, then somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2 @10, hoping this curve will keep going all the way to black.
I don't have my meter yet (used to borrow from a friend all the time but got tired so I bought one), I will have a look at what happens @5%.

It's still too high to witness the post reset gamma problem which begins to happen under bar 20 on low pluge pattern. For the record, 5% grey is bar 27, 10% is 38...
Definitely too low to hope for any good reading for a consumer grade colorimeter, I would only trust a Klein K10 that low

Sorry I meant +1. Setting it to +1 gives me a gamma reading of 2.16 on 10 IRE. Leaving it at 0 nets a gamma level of 2.3 on 10 IRE. This is all on isf night mode.

On isf day, my gamma was not straight with all points at 0, since there was a steady and significant raise from 50 IRE and up. I got it as straight as I could by setting all points to -1 except to 10 IRE, which I left at 0.
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post #1624 of 1641 Old 04-12-2015, 02:16 PM
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I tested many things tonight, and found that the best result on the gamma side, visually at least, was to have all gamma at -1, except 20% @ 0 and 10% @ +1.
It gives a very natural feeling in the dark scenes.
It must go down in a progressive manner on the low end however, if you leave all at -1 except 10 @ +1 it's too huge a step and washes out the picture, but bringing 20% into the mix makes it really good.
So far I get the same pop on the picture as with ISF day, but without eye strain in a dark room

I noticed something else that I'll have to figure out too...
I calibrated the tv with a display pro and the charts were really good, but I still felt like there's a tiny green push to the lights, and after finding a good scene in prometheus to figure things out by eye, I found that I was lacking 5 (4 at least) clics on blue and that red was too low. I was remembering the same scenes on a sony hw55 with absolutely no push, and I simply aimed for the same result I remembered.

I've read that somewhere that such things could happen when having the meter in direct contact to the screen, it might read the coating of the glass and the dithering too, giving false results.
I'll try again with the meter at 1ft from the screen and all lights off to see how it goes.

Last edited by lnarbi; 04-12-2015 at 02:20 PM.
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post #1625 of 1641 Old 04-13-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I tested many things tonight, and found that the best result on the gamma side, visually at least, was to have all gamma at -1, except 20% @ 0 and 10% @ +1.
It gives a very natural feeling in the dark scenes.
It must go down in a progressive manner on the low end however, if you leave all at -1 except 10 @ +1 it's too huge a step and washes out the picture, but bringing 20% into the mix makes it really good.
So far I get the same pop on the picture as with ISF day, but without eye strain in a dark room

I noticed something else that I'll have to figure out too...
I calibrated the tv with a display pro and the charts were really good, but I still felt like there's a tiny green push to the lights, and after finding a good scene in prometheus to figure things out by eye, I found that I was lacking 5 (4 at least) clics on blue and that red was too low. I was remembering the same scenes on a sony hw55 with absolutely no push, and I simply aimed for the same result I remembered.

I've read that somewhere that such things could happen when having the meter in direct contact to the screen, it might read the coating of the glass and the dithering too, giving false results.
I'll try again with the meter at 1ft from the screen and all lights off to see how it goes.
I learned the hard way to not calibrate with the meter in direct contact with the screen. The heat coming off the panel affects readings, so if you engage in a long calibration session (it sounds like you did since you did a lot of testing) heat will become a factor in your readings. You should position the meter at least 6 inches away from the screen.

Can you post your calibration report? I'd like to see how your gamma curve looks like. I haven't done enough post calibration real world testing with my 500M, but my gamma was pretty much straight 2.23, with points 10 and 20 around 2.17.

I will perform a 21 point reading (to check 5 IRU) later this week and report back.
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post #1626 of 1641 Old 04-13-2015, 11:15 AM
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Next week end I'll be able to post reports, still waiting on the meter (and now the tripod + the adapter you bought, thanks for the tip I found it on amazon france too).
Will be a pain in the ass to constantly have to turn on and off the computer screen as it stands really close to the tv (therefore the meter).
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post #1627 of 1641 Old 04-13-2015, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Next week end I'll be able to post reports, still waiting on the meter (and now the tripod + the adapter you bought, thanks for the tip I found it on amazon france too).
Will be a pain in the ass to constantly have to turn on and off the computer screen as it stands really close to the tv (therefore the meter).
As long as you're behind the meter, the light from the monitor shouldn't affect it.

Wait, were you making gamma and grayscale adjustments by eye?
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post #1628 of 1641 Old 04-13-2015, 01:42 PM
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Yes
I didn't say it's accurate, I did say it felt better, more like what I see on a calibrated proj, or in cinema. I'll see at the end of the week how it ends in the charts.
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post #1629 of 1641 Old 04-14-2015, 02:54 AM
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Hi again,


Now that I've read almost the entire theard I'd still like to try to get my blacks darker. My set is SX4280D (8G) and it has 19k hours on it, so it's not that new anymore. Thats why I'd like to try this first before doing complete reset (or what do you think?):
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice
The easiest and safest way for ALL to lower the blacks and get rid of the red tint right now is just to lower YKNOFSA D
that way doesnt bring back any weird problems.
BUT I don't know what the adjustment range is for my panel. I did found a 4280HD service manual, but no luck with that.


So help, from someone who has done this before, would be highly appreciated!
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post #1630 of 1641 Old 04-14-2015, 06:15 AM
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Hi again,


Now that I've read almost the entire theard I'd still like to try to get my blacks darker. My set is SX4280D (8G) and it has 19k hours on it, so it's not that new anymore. Thats why I'd like to try this first before doing complete reset (or what do you think?):


BUT I don't know what the adjustment range is for my panel. I did found a 4280HD service manual, but no luck with that.


So help, from someone who has done this before, would be highly appreciated!
8G Pioneer Plasmas do not have FSAD , you have to lower S1 S3 and S4 . make sure to keep the spacing the same , in other words if you lower S1 10 clicks you must lower S3 and S4 10 clicks
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post #1631 of 1641 Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM
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Got the meter and the tripod and I compared between direct contact vs around 5 inches away.
Besides slight luminance changes which is somewhat normal, absolutely no difference in measurements between the meter on direct contact for 2 hours and the kuro burning it, and the meter cold at a distance.

On the gamma side unfortunately the low end can't be set differently without screwing up green in the midrance IRE.
On my panel gamma 0 = around 2.15, gamma -1 = around 2.20 and gamma -2 around 2.25/2.30, I chose the last one.

Some findings about the CMS, gathered from various d-nice posts and trials :

G C and B mainly affect the low end, so they can be used to tweak the greyscale on the very low end.
As a side effect of using the Green CMS, it will rotate your red and blue colors in one way if pushed right (red will slowly go up through the entire greyscale, and blue will go down), and the opposite if pushed left. Used with the RGB highs/lows it can open some tweak perspectives.

Yellow can be used 1 or 2 clicks to tame the red channel on the middle up side, if needed.
The other ones I haven't figured a logical pattern that would explain their use.

Anyway I've got the best greyscale I ever had, unfortunately I found no combination that would better the 5 and 10% clics without having worse results overall, so I'll live with it. Raising brightess to +2 would cut dEuv by half, but it raises idle luminance, and it's not an option.
Blue falls a bit on the high end because of ABL imho, I used ted's lightspace disk with 11% patterns (AVS APL small patterns give very similar results, a bit different, but not much at all).
Colorchecker SG averages 0.6dE now.
Still not as good as the d-nice reports though, I don't know how he manages to get there... something I'll never have, his experience...

This is with brightness +1 :


This with brightness +2 (obviously better, but screws the blacks) :


Gamut :


And Controlcal settings for that :
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post #1632 of 1641 Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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I tried to change the offsets while measuring the low IREs :
- VSUS doesn't do anything to the greyscale, but if I raise it to 160, the green flashing pixel I had before reset comes back, so obviously the delta for 15k hours is around +30 or more on VSUS
- FSAD fixes the low end of the greyscale, around 150 I'm at 3 dEuv on both 5 and 10% grey vs more than 10 before, but several major side effects = much much much more IR, a slight return of red tint and of course higher black levels.

Now that I've figured this out, I'm wondering if I should try another reset set both voltage around 150 right after the reset when I change RSTP, and see how it looks in the end.
I might even try to put them 22 clics lower before the reset, then reset, and after that raise them back to 128, should have the same effect on the actual voltages, but might act differently other time in the end.
Remember : when I raised RSTP from 16 to 33 right after reset I had no raise in mll at all.

Last edited by lnarbi; Yesterday at 04:54 PM.
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post #1633 of 1641 Old Yesterday, 05:29 PM
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I tried to change the offsets while measuring the low IREs :
the S1 voltage changes gamma near black so thats the one you could try to change to get 5% gamma up to the line.
lower it -10 would probably get 5% up to gamma 2.3 as the rest of the IREs.
lower S1 to much and you will get a red push to the low IREs so thats not good.

about abl
i dont get it
why calibrate with apl patterns that triggers ABL ?
you are using APL patterns not windows right?

not only will apl patterns change gamma on the kuros they will also change the whiteballance.

use small windows instead.
calibrate to those and you get the best overall picture.

as for peak brightness
why only 29fL?
35fL (120cd/m2) is more suited for ISF night.

on my last 5090 i gaved up on the ISF modes.
i could never get the same punch near black as i did with the user or standard modes.
the ISF modes allways looked more flat with more washed out shadows.

to bad that the 5090s doesnt have the pure mode as the KRPs has.
that mode is the one im using now most of the time on my KRP

edit: the ISF P2 settings
what do you have those set to?

another option is to buy the eecolor 3d LUT box
http://www.displaycalibrations.com/eecolor_order.html

then you dont need to worry about the higher dEs and how to correct them
the 3D LUT calibration corrects all of the problems you have now near black.
just sit back and wait for 5 hours to complete the calibration
after that you will have an average color error of around dE 0.2

your kuro will then match the Dolby Reference monitors as for picture accuracy.

Last edited by all clear; Yesterday at 05:56 PM.
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post #1634 of 1641 Old Yesterday, 11:43 PM
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Never change the spacing betwwen S1 S3 and S4.
28fL suits my needs for ISF Night, I don't need brighter (I don't need THX certification). ISF day is at 48fL.
P2 are set as always, like everyone.

In real world viewing ABL is triggered all the time, so I choose to trigger it just a bit.
Theres no need for a 3d lut or complete CMS on a kuro, if you choose to buy it's your call, but it's definitely not needed.
Besides my meter isn't profiled yet, so there's no point trying to do better at the time, I'll wait until a calibrator I know comes around, he will bring his PR670 to profile the diplay pro on my tv. Then it will be worth to try some more.

BTW : I measured with full field windows out of curiosity, and besides of gamma being out of whack the color tracking is roughly the same, definitely no problem in the use of 11% windows.

Last edited by lnarbi; Yesterday at 11:48 PM.
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post #1635 of 1641 Old Today, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Never change the spacing betwwen S1 S3 and S4.
28fL suits my needs for ISF Night, I don't need brighter (I don't need THX certification). ISF day is at 48fL.
P2 are set as always, like everyone.

In real world viewing ABL is triggered all the time, so I choose to trigger it just a bit.
Theres no need for a 3d lut or complete CMS on a kuro, if you choose to buy it's your call, but it's definitely not needed.
Besides my meter isn't profiled yet, so there's no point trying to do better at the time, I'll wait until a calibrator I know comes around, he will bring his PR670 to profile the diplay pro on my tv. Then it will be worth to try some more.

BTW : I measured with full field windows out of curiosity, and besides of gamma being out of whack the color tracking is roughly the same, definitely no problem in the use of 11% windows.
you are wrong
spacing between S3 and S4 needs to be the same.
S1 is not linked to S3 and S4.
if you test it you will know thats the case.

P2 are set as always?
what do you mean?
what settings do you use under P2 thats what i want to know.

no ABL is not triggerd all the time with real world viewing only over 40% APL.
if you put up the menu on a scene and the scene becoms darker when you close the menu ABL is in use.
if the scene have the same brightness when you close the menu ABL is not in use.
ABL is only in use on high APL scenes.

so you are using small windows then?
then you dont need to worry about ABL.

no 3D LUT is not needed but it makes a big different to the picture quality when you use it on a Kuro.
everything looks more 3D like.
i know because i have compared a simple 1D lut calibration like you are doing to a 3D LUT calibration and the difference is visible.
colors are amazing
details near black is better.
if you have some black crush before the 3D LUT calibration (every tweaked and reseted kuro has it to some degree) you will not have any black crush when the 3D LUT calibration is finished.

you are correcting colorpoints inside the gamut with a 3D LUT calibration.
with a 1D LUT calibration you are not.

besides
a 3D LUT calibration is more simplier
just sit back and let the program do the job calibrating the signal.
you dont have to do anything besides set the whiteballance and blacklevel before you start.
no calibration knowlegde is needed for a 3D LUT calibration.

so there goes the pro calibration knowledge that many pays for

Last edited by all clear; Today at 02:25 AM.
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post #1636 of 1641 Old Today, 10:27 AM
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you are wrong
spacing between S3 and S4 needs to be the same.
S1 is not linked to S3 and S4.
if you test it you will know thats the case.

P2 are set as always?
what do you mean?
what settings do you use under P2 thats what i want to know.

no ABL is not triggerd all the time with real world viewing only over 40% APL.
if you put up the menu on a scene and the scene becoms darker when you close the menu ABL is in use.
if the scene have the same brightness when you close the menu ABL is not in use.
ABL is only in use on high APL scenes.

so you are using small windows then?
then you dont need to worry about ABL.

no 3D LUT is not needed but it makes a big different to the picture quality when you use it on a Kuro.
everything looks more 3D like.
i know because i have compared a simple 1D lut calibration like you are doing to a 3D LUT calibration and the difference is visible.
colors are amazing
details near black is better.
if you have some black crush before the 3D LUT calibration (every tweaked and reseted kuro has it to some degree) you will not have any black crush when the 3D LUT calibration is finished.

you are correcting colorpoints inside the gamut with a 3D LUT calibration.
with a 1D LUT calibration you are not.

besides
a 3D LUT calibration is more simplier
just sit back and let the program do the job calibrating the signal.
you dont have to do anything besides set the whiteballance and blacklevel before you start.
no calibration knowlegde is needed for a 3D LUT calibration.

so there goes the pro calibration knowledge that many pays for
In my testing, I found that lowering s1 (while keeping the others intact) made a 5% window darker. To see this change, you need to perform adjustment via commands and not the service menu overlay, as the overlay makes it impossible to see the effects of your changes. Anyways, lowering s3 and s4 by the same amount as s1 (to bring all 3 back to factory separation) undoes the brightness reduction caused by lowering s1. Perhaps raising s1 by 10 ticks will compensate for the black crush on near black? I may be over thinking it, but wouldn't lowering s1 independently worsen the black crush issue?

Granted, I didn't measure the changes with a meter because what I saw told me al I needed to know. I'll play around with s1 independently and measure its effects later this week. My 5 and 10 IRE points are heavy in red on night mode (though perfectly fine on day mode) so if lowering s1 too much causes this red push as you mention, then lowering s1 independently will only make things worse. My panel is tweaked with factory separation intact, never reset, btw.

The bt1886 standard calls for higher gamma up until 10 IRE, so if the Kuro's adjustments limited my choices between 2.27 and 2.17 for 5 and 10 IRE, I would definitely go with the latter to undo the loss of detail near black caused by tweaking / reset. If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't the former make the black crush problem worse?

Interestingly enough, tweaking voltages while maintaining factory separation does not affect near black gamma on the 60 inch panels. I've never owned 50 inch 9th gen (only 9.5) so I am not sure if size or generation is the main factor. Most likely the latter.

I too prefer dim night mode and typically calibrate my night mode to 30ftl. I've seen various D-Nice reports (including from two sessions with my 101fd) and he seems to shoot for 32ftl on night mode. IMO, 35ftl is too bright for a night mode, especially since you cant get past 40ftl on the 60 inch iterations for day mode. But in the end is all about personal preference.
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post #1637 of 1641 Old Today, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I tried to change the offsets while measuring the low IREs :
- VSUS doesn't do anything to the greyscale, but if I raise it to 160, the green flashing pixel I had before reset comes back, so obviously the delta for 15k hours is around +30 or more on VSUS
- FSAD fixes the low end of the greyscale, around 150 I'm at 3 dEuv on both 5 and 10% grey vs more than 10 before, but several major side effects = much much much more IR, a slight return of red tint and of course higher black levels.

Now that I've figured this out, I'm wondering if I should try another reset set both voltage around 150 right after the reset when I change RSTP, and see how it looks in the end.
I might even try to put them 22 clics lower before the reset, then reset, and after that raise them back to 128, should have the same effect on the actual voltages, but might act differently other time in the end.
Remember : when I raised RSTP from 16 to 33 right after reset I had no raise in mll at all.
VSUS does increase peak light output slight but other than that my observations match yours. I had a intermittent stuck aqua pixel on my 101 that would go away if I lowered VSUS or SAD (i.e. s1, s3 and s4). Raising any of the two and the stuck pixel would return.

Wait, you saw MORE IR with a higher SAD value? That makes no sense. A higher SAD value fixing the low end of the gray scale might point to my assumption that raising s1 independently is the key to fixing low end gray scale and gamma issues. Perhaps, on non reset displays, s1 needs to be left at default and only s3 and s4 should be lowered for tweak not to affect low end? I will test later next week.

Man, I sure dont miss my reset panel and the endless and fruitless voltage adjustment sessions.
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post #1638 of 1641 Old Today, 11:56 AM
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Perhaps raising s1 by 10 ticks will compensate for the black crush on near black?
yes raising S1 will bring out more details near black but also lowering gamma near black.
to low S1 will get dirty details near black.

the best way i think is just to put up the 5% window and put up a meter and read the whiteballance.
when the whiteballance for 5% white is right you also have the S1 voltage right.
the red tone will go away if you raise S1 some

i havnt changed voltages in over a year i think.
the 3D LUT calibration made the picture perfect so there is no need to tweak anything here.

i can put up calibration results from when the 3D LUT is activated and when its not so you can see the differences.
not only will the 3D LUT calibration take care of whiteballance near black and blackcrush it will also set gamma right near black.
so instead of tweaking the low end greyscale which is almost impossible when you dont have 10 or 20 point whiteballance settings.
let the 3D LUT calibration do the job.
the result is really amazing.

if i have time i could put up a guide on how to set up the programs you need to create a 3D LUT
once set up its easy.

as for the eecolor 3D LUT box you dont need it if you watch movies from your PC.
in that case you just import the 3D LUT file to the madvr video renderer.
the result is the same as if you connect the eecolor box to your blu ray player.
in both cases you use a 3D LUT file to change the signal to the tv.

here is some info from a calibrator named Gordon from avforum when he calibrated a NEW KRP-500A using 3D LUT
https://www.avforums.com/threads/i-c...erday.1924230/
but thats only 750 measured colorpatches
the 3D LUT i have done is made from reading and correcting 9200 colorpatches.

he also explains why you shouldnt touch the CMS controls on the Kuros

Last edited by all clear; Today at 12:13 PM.
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yes raising S1 will bring out more details near black but also lowering gamma near black.
to low S1 will get dirty details near black.
So why would lowering s1 be a better overall solution?

Also, isnt higher gamma (i.e. below 2.2) near black desired? Especially since the bt1886 standard calls for higher gamma near black.
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All right so I did it I had to try.
New reset done today.

Difference from the first one, I have set vsus and fsad immediately to 155 both after the reset, along with rstp.
My MLL is higher, that's a fact, but not red tinted so far, so we'll see over time. I have higher IR than before too, but it's not really that annoying. No black rain spotted so far (but haven't extensively looked for it).

Did a greyscale check after that, and I needed to raise red and blue (+1 on red, +2 on blue), this is the result :


Much better low end.

In the picture itself viewing some movies I was really impressed, that's by far the best picture I've had on the different kuro I've owned and seen. Colors are wonderfull, perfect black details, colors near black are excellent, a natural sharpness even in movements I never had before, the picture is impressive, really...
But MLL is worse. If it's the only downside to keep a picture that nice, well... so be it.

Edit : by standard controlcal P2 I meant as in d-nice's settings

Last edited by lnarbi; Today at 02:11 PM.
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post #1641 of 1641 Unread Today, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
So why would lowering s1 be a better overall solution?

Also, isnt higher gamma (i.e. below 2.2) near black desired? Especially since the bt1886 standard calls for higher gamma near black.
bt1886 gamma is only optimal for displays that cant go down to 0 blacks so i dont use it.
i go for powerlaw gamma on my KRP
that one looks best.

if you want to use bt1886 do it
i dont trust gimmicks that tries to copy the behaviour from the old CRT tvs
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