Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 58 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
the Service menu settings is the settings you should rely on all the time
i have seen before that kuro kapture can put up the wrong numbers from one run over another,so thats what you probably got here.
wrong readings from kuro kapture
Um, no. You do realize that Kuro Kapture is getting the data via service menu commands right? Unless you are selecting the wrong model, all the values are ALWAYS accurate. Perhaps there are minor differences that I didnt account for in the European models, which may be throwing off the program.

Inarbi's output looks legitimate. There are no blank fields and the numbers for each setting makes sense (not seeing 1000 for sad for instance), which tells me the mapping and translations are intact.
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post #1712 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 09:38 AM
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im going to try that "new" and safe reset procedure in about 1 month when i buy another KRP or a 5090
i will report back how it worked.
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post #1713 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
im going to try that "new" and safe reset procedure in about 1 month when i buy another KRP or a 5090
i will report back how it worked.
Or on your next reset when you accumulate 200 hours or whatever your benchmark is for resetting.
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post #1714 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 09:53 AM
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Well the only drawback in all of this, is that you HAVE to have backed up all your settings (the 3 modes) before the very first reset of the tv, otherwise you won't get anything useful to go further. If you just did a reset, the total values and adjustment values will be the same (say 494 for R adjust, and 506 as total red, 1000 - R adjust). You need over 1k hours to really see the things are starting to change on the total values, with 200 hours since reset you might only see 1 clic difference on red total and maybe 0 on green.

I calculated my estimate of hours from the pulse meter (pulse meter 3 x 10 / 648) and it gives me around 11300 hours before reset (14k on my hours counter might be because of first owner listening music with picture off).

If we assume that change is linear over time (not necessarily the case), I had 81 clics down on red, that would make 1 clic change every 140 hours (if linear), and 198 hours for the green first clic.
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post #1715 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Or on your next reset when you accumulate 200 hours or whatever your benchmark is for resetting.
150 hours max before a new reset but i could make an exception and stretch it to 200 hours
i think i can try it already after 150 hours
thats the point where i see a rise in blacklevel.

im really interseted to see if this new procedure works so we can put a end to this old "dangerous" (with no turning back) reset method lol

Last edited by all clear; 04-28-2015 at 10:21 AM.
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post #1716 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 10:25 AM
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To sum it up a bit to be more understandable...

Let's say you want to reset your display.
For non US owners, use kuro capture when on broadcast TV, mode 1, rename to 72-75Hz, switch to mode 2, new capture and rename to 50-100Hz, for 60Hz do it in service menu while in 60Hz mode (depending on pure cinema setting, you could get 72Hz out of mode 3 on broadcast tv), type QSI in hyperterminal to be sure you're in 60VS mode, backup to 60Hz file.
US owners will probably never use 50Hz, so backup 60Hz and 72Hz.

Set everything back to default, RSTP to 0, power off the TV (with the switch), wait a minute, turn it back on. RSTP will be at default card value (say 18).

Now take your 72Hz file, look at ABL adjustment value (say 126), and your total ABL value (say 101).
Difference is 25.
Note your factory RSTP value (say 33).

After your reset, these will be your values to change :
VSUS = 128 + 25 = 153
FSAD = VSUS (it's what I choose to believe) = 153
ABL (for 72Hz only) = 126 - 25 = 101
RSTP = 33

Now look at total red/green values under QSI section, say you have 577 for RED, and 563 for green. Your new values will be 500 on both, so you need PRH (red) to 1000-577=423 and PGH (green) to 1000-563=437, while displaying 72Hz (you can in service menu launch pattern MKCS01, and type VFQS05 to force 72Hz).

Let the panel on MKCS01 for 30min (don't know if it's necessary, probably not, but I always did).

Profit.
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post #1717 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
150 hours max before a new reset but i could make an exception and stretch it to 200 hours
i think i can try it already after 150 hours
thats the point where i see a rise in blacklevel.

im really interseted to see if this new procedure works so we can put a end to this old "dangerous" (with no turning back) reset method lol
I still consider it dangerous because we really dont know all of the settings that are impacted by a reset. I still contend that tweaking below mininmums is a much safer approach, as you know exactly which settings you manipulated, and nets identical results as a reset.

Quite ironic that Shock who is also against resetting discovered this recovery method and I, also against reset, am sharing it.

Last edited by makaveddie81; 04-28-2015 at 12:32 PM.
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post #1718 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
150 hours max before a new reset but i could make an exception and stretch it to 200 hours
i think i can try it already after 150 hours
thats the point where i see a rise in blacklevel.

im really interseted to see if this new procedure works so we can put a end to this old "dangerous" (with no turning back) reset method lol
Trust me it works. Youll never reset without it.
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post #1719 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
To sum it up a bit to be more understandable...

Let's say you want to reset your display.
For non US owners, use kuro capture when on broadcast TV, mode 1, rename to 72-75Hz, switch to mode 2, new capture and rename to 50-100Hz, for 60Hz do it in service menu while in 60Hz mode (depending on pure cinema setting, you could get 72Hz out of mode 3 on broadcast tv), type QSI in hyperterminal to be sure you're in 60VS mode, backup to 60Hz file.
US owners will probably never use 50Hz, so backup 60Hz and 72Hz.

Set everything back to default, RSTP to 0, power off the TV (with the switch), wait a minute, turn it back on. RSTP will be at default card value (say 18).

Now take your 72Hz file, look at ABL adjustment value (say 126), and your total ABL value (say 101).
Difference is 25.
Note your factory RSTP value (say 33).

After your reset, these will be your values to change :
VSUS = 128 + 25 = 153
FSAD = VSUS (it's what I choose to believe) = 153
ABL (for 72Hz only) = 126 - 25 = 101
RSTP = 33

Now look at total red/green values under QSI section, say you have 577 for RED, and 563 for green. Your new values will be 500 on both, so you need PRH (red) to 1000-577=423 and PGH (green) to 1000-563=437, while displaying 72Hz (you can in service menu launch pattern MKCS01, and type VFQS05 to force 72Hz).

Let the panel on MKCS01 for 30min (don't know if it's necessary, probably not, but I always did).

Profit.

Thats a very ingenious way to use Kuro Kapture and your formulas make sense. I dont remember anyone mention that the QSI values change after reset, which leads me to my main point that we will never know the entire scope of a reset - there will always be new discoveries and theories. It seems like there's a lot more going on after reset that we thought, perhaps we only see the tip of the iceberg.

Anyone with a non reset panel affllicted with red tint should forego reset and simply tweak below minimums because at least you know what settings are being altered and are not stabbing in the dark.
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post #1720 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I still consider it dangerous because we really dont know all of the settings that are impacted by a reset.
by looking at the result i and several others that i have helped doing the reset it cant be that many more settings that is reseted
(settings that you can adjust afterwards that is)
i think i have helped 10 kuro users so far doing the reset.
none of them have any problems and most of them are using the default voltages after the reset.
everyone is happy and thinks its a new tv they looking at.
im not going to change anything that works.

Edit: you want to get rid of these bad aging algorithms.
they do more harm than good.
so i still recommend a reset over just lowering the voltages.

Last edited by all clear; 04-28-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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post #1721 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
by looking at the result i and several others that i have helped doing the reset it cant be that many more settings that is reseted
(settings that you can adjust afterwards that is)
i think i have helped 10 kuro users so far doing the reset.
none of them have any problems and most of them are using the default voltages after the reset.
everyone is happy and thinks its a new tv they looking at.
im not going to change anything that works.
That doesn't mean it can't look better
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post #1722 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
by looking at the result i and several others that i have helped doing the reset it cant be that many more settings that is reseted
(settings that you can adjust afterwards that is)
i think i have helped 10 kuro users so far doing the reset.
none of them have any problems and most of them are using the default voltages after the reset.
everyone is happy and thinks its a new tv they looking at.
im not going to change anything that works.
Well, apparently Inarbi discovered quite a few settings that are impacted by reset that you weren't aware of. I'm sure there are more (possibly internal ones) that we don't know about. So there's that.

I am almost positive that the people you have helped either are not looking as carefully as they should (they dont know what to look for other than "yay the red tint is gone") or they don't have a non reset panel to do a side by side comparison. Just because the TV powers on and the screen isnt littered with sparkles doesnt mean the TV is performing as it should. In fact, you don't have a non reset panel to use as a reference, as you reset the last set that you purchased as soon as you plugged it in (and wasted a great testing opportunity). I have compared both side by side and performed the safe reset method, restored it and then lowered volts below minimums and the results were identical with one big exception - recovering the tweak is easier than recovering a reset that was not dine via the safe method.

I've helped more than 10 people/reduce red tint via my programs and tweak only.

No one is telling you to change your process, its your TV. All I'm saying is that you should really use do an in depth side by side comparison between a reset Kuro and a non reset one before you claim that a reset panel can be recovered to perform 100% as a stock panel. If you ever purchase another non reset panel, I also suggest you do as much testing on the tweak as you have with reset so you become more educated on it rather than blindly bash it. I'm sure you will come to the same conclusion I did.

Should reset be part of the equation for red tint repair? Sure, but not before voltage tweak (including below minimums). And if a reset is desired, perform it the safe way so the TV can easily be reverted to it pre reset state.
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post #1723 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 02:10 PM
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My question is why would you ever reset a panel ? If it can not be fixed with tweaking the volts it prolly can not be fixed .
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post #1724 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 03:48 PM
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My question is why would you ever reset a panel ? If it can not be fixed with tweaking the volts it prolly can not be fixed .
This. I think this new "safe" reset method will expose reset for what it is, since people will now be able to test out a reset and easily revert back to pre-reset state.
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post #1725 of 1732 Old 04-28-2015, 07:52 PM
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as you reset the last set that you purchased as soon as you plugged it in (and wasted a great testing opportunity).
i did test the KRP for days before the reset.
it had an blacklevel of 0.004Y when i bought it.
the picture quality is better now after the reset with less noise in it.
should i mention the contrast ratio that even beats the OLEDs ?

i think there is to much drama here over nothing.
why bother with numbers that changes when you really dont want to use those algorithms anyway ?

Do a reset and get rid of those non working aging algoritms that gives and old KRP-500M a blacklevel close to the LCDs.
in most cases use the default voltages after the reset.
if not only small adjustments is needed.

Do a new reset every 200 hours
now you have taken control of your kuro and it will perform they way you want not something the aging algorithms thinks is optimal.
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post #1726 of 1732 Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM
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i did test the KRP for days before the reset.
it had an blacklevel of 0.004Y when i bought it.
That's not my recollection of your KRP purchase post on the European forum. On that post, you explicitly said that you reset as soon as you powered it on. But, I'll take your word for it.

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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
the picture quality is better now after the reset with less noise in it.
should i mention the contrast ratio that even beats the OLEDs ?
I'm sorry but your contrast ratio does not beat OLED, which can produce true 0 black (since the pixels can turn OFF) and is capable of higher peak brightness than Kuro. The pixels on a plasma will always be ON, it's inherent in the technology. You may not see the light being emitted by them, but they are ALWAYS ON and emitting some light. The Kuro is not designed nor capable of producing 0 blacks. The proof is in the black rain that litters your TV.

There is no way there is less noise on a reset Kuro than a non reset one. Like I said, you either didn't test side by side, or you didn't test at all and are only seeing what you want to see.

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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
Do a reset and get rid of those non working aging algoritms that gives and old KRP-500M a blacklevel close to the LCDs.
in most cases use the default voltages after the reset.
if not only small adjustments is needed.
The thing is, a reset is not needed to accomplish this. You can easily lower your black level by tweaking voltage offsets and leaving everything else intact. Rather than using a mouse trap to kill a mouse, you're detonating the whole house to accomplish the same feat.

Why reset a Kuro that is not afflicted by red tint? That's just bonkers. It's quite interesting how your pal Stu, who is as big on resets as you are, hasn't reset his low hour 101fd. That tells me all I need to know.

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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
i think there is to much drama here over nothing.
why bother with numbers that changes when you really dont want to use those algorithms anyway ?

Do a new reset every 200 hours
now you have taken control of your kuro and it will perform they way you want not something the aging algorithms thinks is optimal.
This is where you are wrong. A reset does not undo the aging algorithms, they are still intact. Which is why the red tint typically returns after approximately 500 to 1000 hours after reset (and why your black level rises every 200 hours).
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post #1727 of 1732 Old Yesterday, 12:53 PM
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Things are going well so far.






Brightness at 0 makes things a bit worse on 5%, but despite the fact that I clip blacks between bar 18 and 19, I like it more that way.
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I'm sorry but your contrast ratio does not beat OLED,
yes it does
i have compared both.
why do you think i sold the oled?
this KRP has better contrast with the same 0 blacks as the oled has.
it has better dynamic range with higher micro contrast.
the OLED reminds more of an LCD with 0 blacks than a panel with self ilummintated pixels.

another post with assumtions from eddie the man.
you really need to see this KRP to see what you are missing lol
and you really need to put up an oled in a pitch black room and start to evaluate it side by side with your KRP.
im sure you will come up to the same conclusion

on paper the oled has higher peak brightness but you dont get all of it on the screen.
a Kuro with 197cd/m2 and modified ABL is still brighter than an OLED at 330cd/m2 due to the higher micro contrast (small bright parts gets brighter on the kuro)
how can i know this?
its easy
you need to compare them side by side

i didnt say that the reset undos the aging algorithms.
but it zeroes them.
thats good enough for 150 hours of use.

30 seconds of exposure here
the KRP has 0 glow to the blacks
if it was a low glow it would be picked up by the camera here.
to the left is the 5090 with original 0.003Y blacks
OLED top right



and no 0.003Y blacks on a kuro will not have the same contrast ratio as the oled.
the picture lacks punch and is looking more 2d ( i think it can be seen from the pictures on the 5090 that it lacks the last 3d depth from the KRP and the OLED)
non glowing blacks on the KRP and you are at the OLED level.





Last edited by all clear; Yesterday at 03:10 PM.
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post #1729 of 1732 Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
yes it does
i have compared both.
why do you think i sold the oled?
this KRP has better contrast with the same 0 blacks as the oled has.
it has better dynamic range with higher micro contrast.
Unless you have a professional grade meter, there is absolutely no way you can measure the OLED's black level (or a tweaked Kuro's for that matter). I fail to see how the Kuro can have better dynamic range/contrast ratio than an OLED that is not only brighter, but can produce true 0 black.

The OLED beats any Kuro with regards to black level and contrast ratio (as a Kuro fanatic, it's OK to admit this). It's everything else that the Kuro has it beat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
the OLED reminds more of an LCD with 0 blacks than a panel with self ilummintated pixels.
Agreed, which is why I have yet to purchase an OLED. Although the OLED has its issues (color accuracy, motion, calibration, etc.) it still produces 0 blacks (better than Kuro) and is brighter than any Kuro. End of story.

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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
another post with assumtions from eddie the man.
you really need to see this KRP to see what you are missing lol
and you really need to put up an oled in a pitch black room and start to evaluate it side by side with your KRP.
im sure you will come up to the same conclusion
Stop acting like your Kuro is one of a kind. These were mass produced TVs. There is no special panel. You did not somehow hit the lottery and ended up with the 10th generation prototype.

I'm sure I could spot black rain, dirty blacks and IR on your reset Kuro from a mile away. I'm not denying that the Kuro is an overall better panel than the OLED. All I'm telling you is that the OLED is indeed superior with regard to black level and dynamic range. I still prefer Kuro due to other picture quality attributes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
on paper the oled has higher peak brightness but you dont get all of it on the screen.
a Kuro with 197cd/m2 and modified ABL is still brighter than an OLED at 330cd/m2 due to the higher micro contrast (small bright parts gets brighter on the kuro)
how can i know this?
its easy
you need to compare them side by side
Yet you have yet to compare a stock and reset Kuro side by side and continue to hammer your assumption that a reset Kuro looks cleaner than a stock one. Like I said, Stu has not reset his 101fd (that he got to replace his reset 500M) for a reason.

Yeah not sure how you came to this "micro contrast" conclusion, but the fact is, the OLED is capable of higher peak light ouput AND lower blacks than Kuro. How the Kuro can still have better contrast ratio in your eyes is mind boggling.

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i didnt say that the reset undos the agin algorithms.
but it zeroes them.
thats good enough for 150 hours of use.
That's kind of what your post implied but point taken. You're just chasing your own tail every 150 hours and subjecting your TV through an irreversible process.
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post #1730 of 1732 Old Yesterday, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
The OLED beats any Kuro with regards to black level and contrast ratio
i dont agree here
but no problem here if you thinks its the case

there are better KRPs and worse KRPs.
i must have one of the better ones that hits (non glowing) blacks without blackclipping or other problems.
no IR no Black rain on regular content
no dirty blacks

i know it must be hard to take but i think you need to accept that your KRP isnt performing near what this one does.

Last edited by all clear; Yesterday at 02:44 PM.
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post #1731 of 1732 Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM
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i dont agree here
but no problem here if you thinks its the case
I'm providing you with cold hard facts. Plasma technology cannot shut pixels completely off, so there is no Kuro that can produce 0 blacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
there are better KRPs and worse KRPs.
i must have one of the better ones that hits (non glowing) blacks without blackclipping or other problems.
no IR no Black rain on regular content
no dirty blacks
While there is some panel variation, it's not to the degree that you make it out to be where both your panels are one-offs that dramatically outperform all other Kuros and can be lowered to abyss level blacks with zero artifacts. That's just silly. There is no magic panel. These were all mass manufactured, no way around it.

Ironically, you did say in the very first few posts of this guide that you were clipping bard 18 and 19 but now the clipping went away. You really need to use the Kuro Summer demo 2008 as a measuring stick for black rain. Matter of fact, I am tempted to upload the whole thing like I did the Kuro Experience demo.

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i know it must be hard to take but i think you need to accept that your KRP isnt performing near what this one does.
This is the kind of attitude that got you banned the first time. It's not that my KRP isn't performing near yours, I just CHOOSE to be more conservative in my tweaks to preserve my Kuro's life span and keep it performing within spec and not force it to do things it was never designed to do. I can easily achieve your results by tweaking below minimums (already did it on this 500M and didn't like the results) or resetting (already did it on my 101fd and didn't like the results) but I choose not to. The black level that *looks* like 0 black sure is nice, but I choose not to be blinded by it and ignore its repercussions.

But, if believing that you somehow have a magical panel makes you sleep better at night, so be it.
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post #1732 of 1732 Old Today, 12:43 AM
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You guys need to stop bashing each other, a difference of opinions will get you nowhere and it's already turning personal like before between you both.

On the first page of this thread there is a big warning posted on the guide about performing a reset at your own risk, so really it's up to the individual to decide whether to do it or not. There is no definite right or wrong when performing a reset, it might make your Kuro perform better than before or might make it slightly worse, that is the risk of a reset.

When I purchased my Kuro last September it had elevated blacks and when I tried to just tweak by lowering RSTP and FSAD it produced very dirty blacks so after much reading of the guide I decided to reset it. I love computers and general tinkering with stuff so I thought that if the Volts need tweaking it would be good to learn.

All Clear (PG_Ice) really helped me out initially along with Stu and I have found your knowledge and findings invaluable Eddie so rather than try and prove who's Kuro is the best, surely it'll be more worthwhile just having all the knowledge here on this thread to help people out.

On my reset Kuro my blacks are now so deep but I have tinkered a lot and performed about 5 or 6 resets just to try different methods to see what difference they make, like I said I really enjoy it!

On the inital reset all I had to do is lower XSUS_B and YSUS_B from 128 to 124 to clear a white screen and for the first 150hrs looks great but after that the black level rises and in my case the black most definately gets dirty with patches that are hardly noticeable but are there.

On my latest reset I have lowered XSUS_B & YSUS_B again to 124 to clear a white screen but have also raised FSAD up to 158 and this seems to look really nice with the depth of the picture looking better. I have lowered RSTP to 1 as the blacks were still not 100% clean and this has helped greatly. I am a firm believer that after a reset it is not crucial to keep the RSTP at the factory default because once reset the ball game has completely changed anyway.

The biggest thing with a reset Kuro is the low end gamma and no matter what anyone says with brightness at 0 it will crush blacks quite badly. Having brightness on 1 completely resolves this issue and I now have a ruler flat 2.2 on my ISF modes.

I have also tweaked the Rx, Ry, Gx, Gy & Bx points in the service menu to tighten the Rec.709 Gamut up with wonderful results. Not much adjustment can be done on the blue side but can get Red and Green perfect and now average DE is 0.93 for primary and secondary colours.

I'm glad I reset my Kuro, the way I look at it is that this is a 7 year old TV which still produces one of the best pictures you will see on a consumer TV! We need to work as a knowledge base on this thread rather than bicker about what is right and what is wrong.

Steve

Pioneer KRP-500A | Sony STR-DH810 Receiver | Tannoy HTS101 Speakers

Last edited by buttonsw; Today at 01:22 AM.
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